8 Nov
2000
8 Nov
'00
10:51 p.m.
Speaking of PAL... a couple weeks ago I got a VHS movie (Barber of
Siberia... I'm trying to learn Russian and thought it might help) on ebay,
played it on my NTSC VCR, and noticed that the picture looked funny;
people's faces looked like melting plastic, and high-contrast edges were
somewhat haloed, etc. Then I noticed the box was labeled PAL. So I'm
wondering if it was dubbed to NTSC (with poor quality), was the wrong box
for the tape and was actually NTSC despite the labeling, or if my VCR
actually managed to play a PAL tape, with the quality being the result
of the higher-bandwidth video signal going through lower-bandwidth NTSC
electronics, and probably also speeding up the movie by 20% or so?
I didn't think NTSC VCRs could play PAL tapes at all.
--
_______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud(a)bigfoot.com
(_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd(a)kb7pwd.ampr.org
__) | | \________________________________________________________________
10 Nov
10 Nov
11:34 a.m.
Speaking of PAL... a couple weeks ago I got a VHS
movie (Barber of
Siberia... I'm trying to learn Russian and thought it might help) on ebay,
played it on my NTSC VCR, and noticed that the picture looked funny;
people's faces looked like melting plastic, and high-contrast edges were
somewhat haloed, etc. Then I noticed the box was labeled PAL. So I'm
wondering if it was dubbed to NTSC (with poor quality), was the wrong box
for the tape and was actually NTSC despite the labeling, or if my VCR
actually managed to play a PAL tape, with the quality being the result
of the higher-bandwidth video signal going through lower-bandwidth NTSC
electronics, and probably also speeding up the movie by 20% or so?
I didn't think NTSC VCRs could play PAL tapes at
all.
Well, if it is a Japanese VCR, chances are good that it can
play both. They have only a few designs, and they are made to
cover all relevant Standards with only minor modifications
(additional software, different modulators/filtering) The same
is true for most TV sets. At least over here in Europe vitualy
every TV and most VCRs found are able to play both, often all
three standards (PAL, SECAM and NTSC). Just for the lower price
units these features are sometimes disabled.
Your description looks like a pure colour problem.
Gruss
H.
--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe
4:01 p.m.
On Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 06:34:41PM +0100, Hans Franke wrote:
Hmmm. Well mine is a Hitachi from the early 90's (93 maybe?) and
was kindof high-end for the time, but not sold as a multi-standard
VCR (those kind are still expensive even now, here in the US). I
use an Electrohome projector for my TV, so wouldn't be surprised
if it is pretty forgiving about the video input.
In Europe multi-standard VCRs may be more common because they are
much more necessary.
Do they automatically detect what kind of tape is being played
or is there a switch to select it? If they detect it, I wonder
how it's done.
I also found a FAQ on the web that says it won't work at all:
http://www.cmc.com/lars/dansk/videofaq.htm
Speaking of
PAL... a couple weeks ago I got a VHS movie (Barber of
Siberia... I'm trying to learn Russian and thought it might help) on ebay,
played it on my NTSC VCR, and noticed that the picture looked funny;
people's faces looked like melting plastic, and high-contrast edges were
somewhat haloed, etc. Then I noticed the box was labeled PAL. So I'm
wondering if it was dubbed to NTSC (with poor quality), was the wrong box
for the tape and was actually NTSC despite the labeling, or if my VCR
actually managed to play a PAL tape, with the quality being the result
of the higher-bandwidth video signal going through lower-bandwidth NTSC
electronics, and probably also speeding up the movie by 20% or so?
I didn't think NTSC VCRs could play PAL tapes
at all.
Well, if it is a Japanese VCR, chances are good that it can
play both. They have only a few designs, and they are made to
cover all relevant Standards with only minor modifications
(additional software, different modulators/filtering) The same
is true for most TV sets. At least over here in Europe vitualy
every TV and most VCRs found are able to play both, often all
three standards (PAL, SECAM and NTSC). Just for the lower price
units these features are sometimes disabled.
Your description looks like a pure colour problem.
Meaning what?
The halo effects are somewhat like what happens when you hook up a
high-res RGB monitor using a cheap VGA extension cable. So I thought
bandwidth compression could very well explain it.
--
_______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud(a)bigfoot.com
(_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd(a)kb7pwd.ampr.org
__) | | \________________________________________________________________
Free long distance at http://www.bigredwire.com/me/RefTrack?id=USA063420
11 Nov
11 Nov
10:58 a.m.
Shawn T. Rutledge
In Europe multi-standard VCRs may be more common
because they are
much more necessary.
Until recently multi-standard VCRs were located in the high-end of the
market. I only began to notice it appearing in cheaper models about three
years ago. It depends upon the manufacturer- the VCR i bought last year does
not support NTSC but my parents' three year old model does. Perhaps I could
flash the bios. ;)
Do they automatically detect what kind of tape is
being played
or is there a switch to select it? If they detect it, I wonder
how it's done.
You can enable/disable the option on a menu screen.
--
Gareth Knight
Amiga Interactive Guide
http://amiga.emugaming.com
If you have sent email to me during the past two months and I have not
replied, please resend it.
13 Nov
13 Nov
5:38 p.m.
Gareth Knight skrev:
Shawn T. Rutledge
> In Europe multi-standard VCRs may be more common because they are
> much more necessary.
Until recently multi-standard VCRs were located in the
high-end of the
market. I only began to notice it appearing in cheaper models about three
years ago. It depends upon the manufacturer- the VCR i bought last year does
not support NTSC but my parents' three year old model does. Perhaps I could
flash the bios. ;)
I dare say that every VTR on the market now is dual-standard. Each and every
one. Even my bottom-range Luma mono video bought last year supports NTSC
playback. It won't play EP tapes, though, so I had to shell out for a stereo
JVC later on, too. =/
However, these won't help in any way when you've got an NTSC signal which is
not on a tape. OTOH, the more expensive TV sets now often have NTSC support.
If you may obtain an RGB signal, thpough, that is always the way to go, since
every TV made in the last decade and most TVs from the preceding one will
support RGB.
> Do they automatically detect what kind of tape is
being played
> or is there a switch to select it? If they detect it, I wonder
> how it's done.
You can enable/disable the option on a menu screen.
My modern players do it automatically, whereas an 80s, once-expensive model
may be switched between automatic and user-defined modes, as well as
outputting pure signals as well as PAL converted ones. It is also my only VTR
to support SECAM (pure SECAM, as opposed to MESECAM).
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6.
14 Nov
14 Nov
11:58 a.m.
On Tue, Nov 14, 2000 at 12:38:35AM +0100, Iggy Drougge wrote:
I dare say that every VTR on the market now is
dual-standard. Each and every
one. Even my bottom-range Luma mono video bought last year supports NTSC
playback. It won't play EP tapes, though, so I had to shell out for a stereo
JVC later on, too. =/
Yeah but do US VCRs do PAL...
However, these won't help in any way when you've got an NTSC signal which is
not on a tape. OTOH, the more expensive TV sets now often have NTSC support.
If you may obtain an RGB signal, thpough, that is always the way to go, since
every TV made in the last decade and most TVs from the preceding one will
support RGB.
If you're talking about the SCART connector, I've not seen any TVs or
VCRs here that have them. (Not that I've been going around the stores
looking for it though...) That's also a European thing. If I had a VCR
with RGB out, that'd be a lot better because I could hook it up to my
projector. (And I've been trying to get an NTSC decoder board for my RGB
switcher on ebay for months now; keep getting "sniped" at the last minute,
and forgetting to be there at the right time to do that myself.)
I did get a DVD player with RGB out (that's a very rare feature here;
usually they have YCbCr instead.) It's a lousy player in most other
ways but at least I get the full resolution on my projector. It doesn't
have a SCART connector either; separate RCA plugs for the three signals.
--
_______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud(a)bigfoot.com
(_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd(a)kb7pwd.ampr.org
__) | | \________________________________________________________________
Free long distance at http://www.bigredwire.com/me/RefTrack?id=USA063420
9 p.m.
Shawn T. Rutledge skrev:
On Tue, Nov 14, 2000 at 12:38:35AM +0100, Iggy Drougge
wrote:
> I dare say that every VTR on the market now is dual-standard. Each and
> every one. Even my bottom-range Luma mono video bought last year supports
> NTSC playback. It won't play EP tapes, though, so I had to shell out for a
> stereo JVC later on, too. =/
Yeah but do US VCRs do PAL...
To the best of my knowledge, they certainly don't.
> However, these won't help in any way when
you've got an NTSC signal which
> is not on a tape. OTOH, the more expensive TV sets now often have NTSC
> support. If you may obtain an RGB signal, thpough, that is always the way
> to go, since every TV made in the last decade and most TVs from the
> preceding one will support RGB.
If you're talking about the SCART connector,
I've not seen any TVs or
VCRs here that have them. (Not that I've been going around the stores
looking for it though...) That's also a European thing. If I had a VCR
with RGB out, that'd be a lot better because I could hook it up to my
projector. (And I've been trying to get an NTSC decoder board for my RGB
switcher on ebay for months now; keep getting "sniped" at the last minute,
and forgetting to be there at the right time to do that myself.)
I've never heard of a VTR with RGB. After all, video cassettes store their
image in a much more compressed format than RGB.
I did get a DVD player with RGB out (that's a very
rare feature here;
usually they have YCbCr instead.) It's a lousy player in most other
ways but at least I get the full resolution on my projector. It doesn't
have a SCART connector either; separate RCA plugs for the three signals.
That's quaint.
Of course, seeing as Japan is much like North America WRT TV standards, a lot
of DVD players here don't have RGB either. Of course, it is doubtful whether
the DVD image would look any good without the blurring of composite.
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6.
Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build
bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the universe trying to produce
bigger and better idiots. So far, the universe is winning.
-- Rick Cook, Mission Manager, NASA Mars Pathfinder Project
15 Nov
15 Nov
12:42 p.m.
On Tue, Nov 14, 2000 at 12:38:35AM +0100, Iggy Drougge
wrote:
> I dare say that every VTR on the market now is dual-standard. Each and every
> one. Even my bottom-range Luma mono video bought last year supports NTSC
> playback. It won't play EP tapes, though, so I had to shell out for a stereo
> JVC later on, too. =/
Yeah but do US VCRs do PAL...
Do you belive that there's room for two (or even more)
different designs anymore ? I doubt that - this busines
is driven by high volume low margin rules. Less variations
means less cost - open any given low price VCR and just
count - everything is highly integrated, and when you
check the data sheets (if available) you'll find that
all used chips are system independant or multiple standard.
And since even digital filters are becoming standard, even
less discrete components are added - and these are have been
the last domain of differences.
A VCR is often available for less than 200 Mark (less
than 85 USD including all taxes) - if you subtract taxes,
store margin, trade margin, transport, etc.pp less than
20 Dollars eventualy reach the manufacturer - and now
imagine that they can do double the output with the same
machinery (or need only half) if you manage to come up
with an unified design.
Of course, where ever it is possible to use different
(cheaper) components for specific markets, without
changing the basic designs and manufacturing processes
they'll do it. Often some feature is just disabled by
software or other simple to add changes. Alas most high
class features are not premium add ons but rather premium
charges for the same unit (Don't tell me you don't know
it from computers - back in the 70s and 80s IBM was great
in selling performance enhancements barly more than a new
micro code disk :)
Doing a complete design only for the US market (or any
other market) is obsolete - this is a global business
since many years.
Anyway
Gruss
H.
--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe
12:57 p.m.
New subject: Poly88 manual
Hi Hans
I noticed that you had bid on the Poly88 manual
( as I had also done aka mantisshrimp ). Do you have
one of these machines?
I have two but only one has the cassette interface.
Both are operational. I also have a copy of Palo Alto
Tiny BASIC that runs in the EPROM's that I could
get to you if you like.
I am looking for a copy of the cassette based BASIC
that Polymorphic originally sold with these.
Later
Dwight
16 Nov
16 Nov
3 a.m.
New subject: Poly88 manual
I noticed that you had bid on the Poly88 manual
( as I had also done aka mantisshrimp ).
I'm not very good in guessing names.
Do you have one of these machines?
No, but since Marvin had one at VCF 2.0 I
_realy_ want to get my hands on a unit.
I am looking for a copy of the cassette based BASIC
that Polymorphic originally sold with these.
Maybe ask Marvin - he's _the_ Poly 88 Guru :)
He got everything - I wouldn't doubt it if he
tells one day he owns even the souls of the
designers :)
Servus
Hans
--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe
11:04 a.m.
New subject: Trivia and Re: Poly88 manual
Hans Franke wrote:
Maybe ask Marvin - he's _the_ Poly 88 Guru :)
He got everything - I wouldn't doubt it if he
tells one day he owns even the souls of the
designers :)
I don't have everything nor do I know a lot about Polymorphic, but I do have
what was left of Polymorphic. There is some advantage of living in the city
where a computer was designed and built :). I have a line on two more
Poly-88 computers but haven't been able to shake them loose yet. As far as
manuals are concerned, I have what appear to be the original manuals that
were used to make up the manuals that were distributed. I still need to set
up one of the Poly computers with both 5 1/4" and 8" disk drives to try and
save the mountains of data on the floppies that came from Polymorphic.
Actually, one of the things I am most interested in is taking a look at the
source code for the stuff they distributed.
Trivia - As I think, most people know that the Poly88 was originally named
the MicroAltair and was renamed because of an objection from MITS. I have
been talking to people associated with Polymorphic trying to find out how
many might have been manufactured with the MicroAltair logo. As best as I
have been able to find out, the MicroAltair was only used for some
promotional material and was not actually manufactured as such. I'll be
talking to Dana Trout (Pickles & Trout) in about an hour and I'll ask him
more about that.
15 Nov
15 Nov
1:16 p.m.
New subject: Poly88 manual
To the group:
Please ignore the message I just sent to Hans.
Dwight
Hi Hans
Sorry, I meant to send to you directly but
didn't check the return address.
Dwight
16 Nov
16 Nov
3:07 a.m.
New subject: Poly88 manual
Sorry, I meant to send to you directly but
didn't check the return address.
Nothing damaged. I'd love to get more Poly 88
stuff (see my 'public' RE). But I still don't
have a Poly. Isn't the eBay price ridicoulous ?
(BTW: nice timeing - the jthecman did increase
his bid several times, just to stop a buck
short :)
I'm sorry I can't help, Marv is the right
address to ask.
Servus
Hans
--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe
3:41 a.m.
New subject: Poly88 manual
> Sorry, I meant to send to you directly but
> didn't check the return address.
[...]
Guilty.
Gruss
Hans
And glad not to live (and die) in Texas
--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe
8815
days inactive
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13 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
elvey＠hal.com -
gaz_k＠lineone.net -
Hans.Franke＠mch20.sbs.de -
marvin＠rain.org -
optimus＠canit.se -
rutledge＠cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com