7 Feb
2016
7 Feb
'16
9:55 a.m.
Yesterday I picked up the PDP11/04 that Jay mentioned a few days ago.
Less than 15 miles from home !
The machine spend its early days as a processor in chemical analysis apparatus, and was
subsequently bought by the employee using it.
Before he could make use of it better, more powerful, easier to use machines came along
and the -11 spend the next 30 years in a garage.
The -04 is an entry level machine, and the cards inside match this :
M7263 KD11 CPU
2 x M7264 16K DRAM cards
M7856 DL11 SLU/RTC
M7846 RX01 controller
2 x M7814 DZ11-F
and of course the M9301, M9302 and M9202.
Alas it has just the simple 2-switch frontpanel.
The machine also had the battery backup option, and the lead/acid batteries will celebrate
their 40th birthday next year !
Better not try to charge them....
Overall the machine is in very good condition, both CPU and RX01, and it is packed in a
very nice half-height rack with the red PDP11 bezel at the top.
Pictures next week when the machine is cleaned and reassembled, restoration is to start
next winter, after a house move which will nearly double working area for the hobby.
Many thanks to Roland for preserving the machine, and to Jay for acting as an interface !
Jos
7 Feb
7 Feb
1:24 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jos
Dreesen
Sent: 07 February 2016 17:55
To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org
Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
Yesterday I picked up the PDP11/04 that Jay mentioned a few days ago.
Less than 15 miles from home !
The machine spend its early days as a processor in chemical analysis
apparatus, and was subsequently bought by the employee using it.
Before he could make use of it better, more powerful, easier to use
machines came along and the -11 spend the next 30 years in a garage.
The -04 is an entry level machine, and the cards inside match this :
M7263 KD11 CPU
2 x M7264 16K DRAM cards
M7856 DL11 SLU/RTC
M7846 RX01 controller
2 x M7814 DZ11-F
and of course the M9301, M9302 and M9202.
Alas it has just the simple 2-switch frontpanel.
The machine also had the battery backup option, and the lead/acid batteries
will celebrate their 40th birthday next year !
Better not try to charge them....
Overall the machine is in very good condition, both CPU and RX01, and it is
packed in a very nice half-height rack with the red PDP11 bezel at the top.
Pictures next week when the machine is cleaned and reassembled,
restoration is to start next winter, after a house move which will nearly
double working area for the hobby.
Many thanks to Roland for preserving the machine, and to Jay for acting as an
interface !
I have one of these on my restoration list. I know the PSU does not work, and that others
have tried to fix it before me, who probably know PSUs much better than I do. It has core
memory so I really would like to get his one fixed. I have never seen a PSU for it come
available in the UK or Europe, so it looks like it won't be an easy job. :-(
Regards
Rob
8 Feb
8 Feb
5:20 a.m.
Until one can restore the original power supply, it is pretty easy to
substitute a modern supply, good quality used commercial grade switchers
with remote sensing can but put on a rack shelf. But if you take that
route, be very very careful of Chinese supplies.
On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 1:24 PM, Robert Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jos
Dreesen
Sent: 07 February 2016 17:55
To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org
Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
Yesterday I picked up the PDP11/04 that Jay mentioned a few days ago.
Less than 15 miles from home !
The machine spend its early days as a processor in chemical analysis
apparatus, and was subsequently bought by the employee using it.
Before he could make use of it better, more powerful, easier to use
machines came along and the -11 spend the next 30 years in a garage.
The -04 is an entry level machine, and the cards inside match this :
M7263 KD11 CPU
2 x M7264 16K DRAM cards
M7856 DL11 SLU/RTC
M7846 RX01 controller
2 x M7814 DZ11-F
and of course the M9301, M9302 and M9202.
Alas it has just the simple 2-switch frontpanel.
The machine also had the battery backup option, and the lead/acid
batteries
will celebrate their 40th birthday next year !
Better not try to charge them....
Overall the machine is in very good condition, both CPU and RX01, and it
is
packed in a very nice half-height rack with the
red PDP11 bezel at the
top.
Pictures next week when the machine is cleaned
and reassembled,
restoration is to start next winter, after a house move which will nearly
double working area for the hobby.
Many thanks to Roland for preserving the machine, and to Jay for acting
as an
interface !
I have one of these on my restoration list. I know the PSU does not work,
and that others have tried to fix it before me, who probably know PSUs much
better than I do. It has core memory so I really would like to get his one
fixed. I have never seen a PSU for it come available in the UK or Europe,
so it looks like it won't be an easy job. :-(
Regards
Rob
6:51 a.m.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jos
> Dreesen
> Sent: 07 February 2016 17:55
> To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org
> Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
>
> Yesterday I picked up the PDP11/04 that Jay mentioned a few days ago.
> Less than 15 miles from home !
On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 1:24 PM, Robert Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
wrote:
I have one of these on my restoration list. I know the
PSU does not work,
and that others have tried to fix it before me, who probably know PSUs
much
better than I do. It has core memory so I really would like to get his one
fixed. I have never seen a PSU for it come available in the UK or Europe,
so it looks like it won't be an easy job. :-(
Regards
Rob
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
From: Pete Lancashire
Sent: Monday, February 08, 2016 2:20 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
Cc: classiccmp at classiccmp.org ; jdr_use at bluewin.ch
Subject: Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..
Until one can restore the original power supply, it is pretty easy to
substitute a modern supply, good quality used commercial grade switchers
with remote sensing can but put on a rack shelf. But if you take that
route, be very very careful of Chinese supplies.
------
Jos,
great catch! And so close to home ... you're very lucky ;-)
Rob,
the PSU of the 11/04 has a big transformer in the primary. Secondary
is just 24-30 VAC. The "bricks" are not overwhelming complicated.
They all have the 24 VAC as input which is rectified by a bridge and
followed by a big capacitor. There is also a fuse. A first check would
be these 3 components. Then the uA723 (or LM723) regulator ...
Only the +15V (or is it the -15V?) needs the - (or +) 15V besides
the 24VAC input.
Pete,
although you could use a "modern power supply", nothing beats
the original stuff. Also you need some some components to
generate the AC LO and DC LO signals. The 11/04 needs them.
- Henk
11:38 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete
Lancashire
Sent: 08 February 2016 13:20
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Cc: classiccmp at classiccmp.org; jdr_use at bluewin.ch
Subject: Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..
Until one can restore the original power supply, it is pretty easy to substitute
a modern supply, good quality used commercial grade switchers with remote
sensing can but put on a rack shelf. But if you take that route, be very very
careful of Chinese supplies.
I should look at that idea.
Regards
Rob
7:25 a.m.
I have one of these on my restoration list. I know the PSU does not work, and that
others
have tried to fix it before me, who probably know PSUs much better than I do. It has
core
memory so I really would like to get his one fixed. I have never seen a PSU for it come
available in the UK or Europe, so it looks like it won't be an easy job. :-(
Which mounting box is it? (The 11/04 could certainly come in 5.25" and 10.5"
versions, there
may have been several versions of each). The common 10.5" one, BA11-K IIRC, is a
fairly
easy supply to work on, it's a big mains transformer and the DEC switching regulator
bricks.
The common 5.25" one, with the H777 PSU, is a bit more nasty, the H777 is a
normal-ish
SMPSU. I have worked on both.
-tony
8:20 a.m.
2016-02-08 16:25 GMT+01:00 tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>:
The H765 PSU in the BA11-K and the H777 supply in the BA11-L are fairly
similar. Both have a big mains transformer. Both have the switchers on the
low voltage side, so they are fairly easy to work with both of them. The
big advantage with the H765 is the modular design.
I have one of these on my restoration list. I know the PSU does not
work, and that
others
have tried to fix it before me, who probably know
PSUs much better than
I do. It has core
memory so I really would like to get his one
fixed. I have never seen a
PSU for it come
available in the UK or Europe, so it looks like
it won't be an easy
job. :-(
Which mounting box is it? (The 11/04 could certainly come in 5.25" and
10.5" versions, there
may have been several versions of each). The common 10.5" one, BA11-K
IIRC, is a fairly
easy supply to work on, it's a big mains transformer and the DEC switching
regulator bricks.
The common 5.25" one, with the H777 PSU, is a bit more nasty, the H777 is
a normal-ish
SMPSU. I have worked on both.
-tony
11:38 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony
duell
Sent: 08 February 2016 15:25
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts <cctech at classiccmp.org>;
jdr_use at bluewin.ch; classiccmp at classiccmp.org
Subject: RE: The PDP11/04 has landed..
10.5"
I have one of these on my restoration list. I know the PSU does not
work, and that others have tried to fix it before me, who probably
know PSUs much better than I do. It has core memory so I really would
like to get his one fixed. I have never seen a PSU for it come
available in the UK or Europe, so it looks like it won't be an easy
job. :-(
Which mounting box is it? (The 11/04 could certainly come in 5.25" and
versions, there may have been several versions of
each). The common 10.5"
one, BA11-K IIRC, is a fairly easy supply to work on, it's a big mains
transformer and the DEC switching regulator bricks.
The common 5.25" one, with the H777 PSU, is a bit more nasty, the H777 is
a
normal-ish SMPSU. I have worked on both.
Sadly it is a H777. I have not even opened it up to look at yet. Until
recently I was fixing the PSU in my rtVAX 1000 (H7864, in a BA23) and the
H7874 from my VAX 4000-500, then I would still like to fix the H7140 from my
11/24, before getting to this one.
Regards
Rob
7 Feb
7 Feb
1:49 p.m.
Jos wrote...
----------
restoration is to start next winter, after a house move which will nearly double working
area for the hobby.
----------
Baaaahahahahaha From experience... it will never be enough space. Double it again. Still
won't be enough. These things reproduce *grin*
J
8 Feb
8 Feb
12:40 p.m.
On 07.02.2016 22:49, Jay West wrote:
Jos wrote...
----------
restoration is to start next winter, after a house move which will nearly double working
area for the hobby.
----------
Baaaahahahahaha From experience... it will never be enough space. Double it again. Still
won't be enough. These things reproduce *grin*
J
Na, Swiss real estate prices will very soon put a limit on that !
Jos (currently sharing the studyroom with 6 filled 19"racks)
7 Feb
7 Feb
8:57 p.m.
On Sun, 7 Feb 2016, Jos Dreesen wrote:
Yesterday I picked up the PDP11/04 that Jay mentioned
a few days ago.
Less than 15 miles from home !
First week on the job in March 1980, my new boss brought me two pdp11/04s
and a box of memeory chips. He to told me to double the memory in
the two computers by populating all the empty holes on the memory boards.
Fortunately I started with only one memory board.
All the holes were full of solder so I tried to clear the solder before
putting in the chips. It seemed that every time I touched the soldering
iron to the board, any nearby traces immediately lifted and rolled up.
I never finished the first board and I never started the second board.
Up until then I thought I knew how to solder.
--
Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS : "...underneath those
Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our
Athabasca, Alberta Canada : heads are naked!"
** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black
8 Feb
8 Feb
7:05 a.m.
On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 11:57 PM, Richard Loken <rlloken at telus.net> wrote:
First week on the job in March 1980, my new boss
brought me two pdp11/04s
and a box of memeory chips. He to told me to double the memory in
the two computers by populating all the empty holes on the memory boards.
I had a boss in 1987 that asked the same of me...
Fortunately I started with only one memory board.
All the holes were full of solder so I tried to clear the solder before
putting in the chips. It seemed that every time I touched the soldering
iron to the board, any nearby traces immediately lifted and rolled up.
I never finished the first board and I never started the second board.
Mine was a DEC MSV11 w/128Kbytes installed, solder filling the holes
for the other half of the memory positions. I did not have problems
with traces lifting from that board (I was using an adjustable Weller
soldering station and had fine control over the temperature).
Installing the DIPs went fine but the first test was not successful -
the new memory did not appear. Quick inspection and a few bad solder
joints found and reflowed, and two more cycles of that and I had my
256Mbytes.
-ethan
7:24 a.m.
Mine was a DEC MSV11 w/128Kbytes installed, solder filling the holes
for the other half of the memory positions. I did not have problems
with traces lifting from that board (I was using an adjustable Weller
soldering station and had fine control over the temperature).
Installing the DIPs went fine but the first test was not successful -
the new memory did not appear. Quick inspection and a few bad solder
joints found and reflowed, and two more cycles of that and I had my
256Mbytess.
Speaking of such modifications. Many, many years ago I modified a M8044 /
MSV11-D board. Removing all the 16 k chips. Replacing those with desoldered
64k chips. Burning a new address decoding PROM. One wire had to go on top
of the chips since the extra address pin used to be a supply pin of the 16k
chips. It worked after a few iterations. And it actually still works.
http://i.imgur.com/miyVaHC.png
7:28 a.m.
First week on
the job in March 1980, my new boss brought me two pdp11/04s
and a box of memeory chips. He to told me to double the memory in
the two computers by populating all the empty holes on the memory boards.
I had a boss in 1987 that asked the same of me... 
8:58 a.m.
On 02/08/2016 09:28 AM, tony duell wrote:
I heard that when Bristol University
physics department got its first VAX (an 11/750,
somewhat before my time), it was cheaper to buy 256K memory boards full of 16K RAM
chips, clip them out, clean out the holes and solder in 64K RAMs rather than to buy
1MByte
boards full of 64K RAMs from DEC. And that is what they did....
I assume they didn't buy a service contract with that
machine? I doubt DEC would be real happy with that. Also,
the 64K RAM chips need an extra address pin, were the boards
laid out with that signal already in place?
(I seem to recall on the VAX 11/780 they had different array
boards and memory controller when going from 4K to 16K DRAM
chips.)
Jon
First week on the job in March 1980, my new boss
brought me two pdp11/04s
and a box of memeory chips. He to told me to double the memory in
the two computers by populating all the empty holes on the memory boards.
I had a
boss in 1987 that asked the same of me...
9:05 a.m.
I assume they
didn't buy a service contract with that machine? I doubt
DEC would be real
happy with that. Also, the 64K RAM chips need an extra
address pin, were the boards laid out with that signal already in place?
(I seem to recall on the VAX 11/780 they had different array boards and
memory controller when going from 4K to 16K DRAM chips.)
Jon
9 Feb
9 Feb
1:35 a.m.
On Mon, 8 Feb 2016, Mattis Lind wrote:
layers of of a multilayer PCB. As mentioned earlier
in this thread I did
such a conversion on a MSV11-D board more than 25 years ago and then I had
to lift up this pin and connect it via an extra wire.
What about the DRAM refresh? 4116 have a 7 bit refresh address, whereas
the 4164 need 8 bit addresses.
Christian
1:48 a.m.
Christian Corti wrote:
On Mon, 8 Feb 2016, Mattis Lind wrote:
Not all, some of them still use 7Bit:
http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/memory/4164.htm
Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
layers of of a multilayer PCB. As mentioned
earlier in this thread I did
such a conversion on a MSV11-D board more than 25 years ago and then I had
to lift up this pin and connect it via an extra wire.
What about the DRAM refresh? 4116 have a 7 bit refresh address, whereas
the 4164 need 8 bit addresses.
Christian
2:22 a.m.
2016-02-09 10:48 GMT+01:00 Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de>:
Christian Corti wrote:
Not all, some of them still use 7Bit:
http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/memory/4164.htm
Yes. The chips used in this case were Fujitsu MB8264-15. They seemed to
work fine as they used 7 bit refresh, but it now is so long ago so I have
forgotten the details.
On Mon, 8 Feb 2016, Mattis Lind wrote:
>layers of of a multilayer PCB. As mentioned earlier in this thread I
did
>such a conversion on a MSV11-D board more
than 25 years ago and then I
had
to lift up
this pin and connect it via an extra wire.
What about the DRAM refresh? 4116 have a 7 bit refresh address, whereas
the 4164 need 8 bit addresses.
Christian
Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
8 Feb
8 Feb
10:33 a.m.
I heard that when Bristol University physics
department got its first VAX (an 11/750,
somewhat before my time), it was cheaper to buy 256K memory boards full of 16K RAM
chips, clip them out, clean out the holes and solder in 64K RAMs rather than to buy
1MByte
boards full of 64K RAMs from DEC. And that is what they did....
I assume they didn't buy a service contract with that machine? I doubt DEC would be real happy with that.
Also,
the 64K RAM chips need an extra address pin, were the boards
laid out with that signal already in place?
Yes. IIRC there were some jumpers to re-set, but the boards were the same.
-tony
1:23 p.m.
On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 1:33 PM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Yep. The boards were used in the 11/70, the 11/730, and the 11/750.
I don't know if
you could use the 256K boards (populated with 4116s) in the 11/730 due
to the tri-voltage
4116s, but even if they worked, you wouldn't want to - 5 of them just
isn't that much RAM.
In the case of the 11/750, one of mine, BT000354 (early S/N) shipped from DEC
with 512KB as two M8728 (256K) boards that I later upgraded to 8MB by removing
the old memory boards and memory controller board, adding eight M8750 boards (it
was not worth clipping and upgrading the actual boards at the time - 1MB boards
were under $300 each by then), and L0016 memory controller board (8MB max)
and adding the additional multiplexed address line to the memory slots. We ran
it that way for many years.
-ethan
> I heard
that when Bristol University physics department got its first VAX (an 11/750,
> somewhat before my time), it was cheaper to buy 256K memory boards full of 16K RAM
> chips, clip them out, clean out the holes and solder in 64K RAMs rather than to buy
1MByte
> boards full of 64K RAMs from DEC. And that is what they did....
machine? I doubt DEC would be real happy with
that. Also,
the 64K RAM chips need an extra address pin, were the boards
laid out with that signal already in place?
Yes. IIRC there were some jumpers to re-set, but the boards were the same.
6:48 p.m.
On 02/08/2016 03:23 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
I don't know if you could use the 256K boards
(populated
with 4116s) in the 11/730 due to the tri-voltage 4116s,
but even if they worked, you wouldn't want to - 5 of them
just isn't that much RAM.
We ran our first 11/780 with 2 memory boards. I
THINK we
had a total of 256 KB, and one Friday afternoon one of them
died and we had to run over the weekend with only one board,
so that would have been 128 KB. Yes, it was a bit tight on
memory, but we got a LOT done on that machine.
Jon
9 Feb
9 Feb
4:55 a.m.
Yep. The boards were used in the 11/70, the 11/730, and the 11/750.
I don't know if
you could use the 256K boards (populated with 4116s) in the 11/730 due
to the tri-voltage
4116s, but even if they worked, you wouldn't want to - 5 of them just
isn't that much RAM.
I am pretty sure (havng read and re-read the printset, I am restroring
an 11/730 at the moment) that you can't use 256K boards in that machine.
The memory address decoder (which IIRC is on the MCT board, part of
the CPU) assumes 1M boards.
Anyway, as you say, you would not want that little memory.
-tony
8:22 a.m.
On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 7:55 AM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
I don't find that surprising. At the time they were designing the
KA730, 1M boards were obviously available (or imminently available)
and with 5 memory slots vs 8 in the KA750, I'm sure they never
expected anyone to want to use up a slot with a tiny board, so why
support them.
As part of this thread, I was digging around for context and ran
across ads in ComputerWorld and such as archived on Google Books. The
ads indicate a reseller price of $4,000 for one MS750CA (1MB board) in
1984. By the time I was buying them (for work) around 1989 I think,
ISTR prices around $400-$600
I don't
know if
you could use the 256K boards (populated with 4116s) in the 11/730 due
I am pretty sure (havng read and re-read the printset, I am restroring
an 11/730 at the moment) that you can't use 256K boards in that machine.
The memory address decoder (which IIRC is on the MCT board, part of
the CPU) assumes 1M boards. Anyway, as you say, you would not want that little
memory.
No good reason to.
-ethan
8 Feb
8 Feb
12:11 a.m.
2016-02-07 18:55 GMT+01:00 Jos Dreesen <jdr_use at bluewin.ch>:
Yesterday I picked up the PDP11/04 that Jay mentioned a few days ago.
Less than 15 miles from home !
The machine spend its early days as a processor in chemical analysis
apparatus, and was subsequently bought by the employee using it.
Before he could make use of it better, more powerful, easier to use
machines came along and the -11 spend the next 30 years in a garage.
The -04 is an entry level machine, and the cards inside match this :
M7263 KD11 CPU
2 x M7264 16K DRAM cards
No, it cannot be M7264. I guess that it is a M7847 MS11-E board. M7264 is
the quad KD11 / LSI-11 CPU board.
M7856 DL11 SLU/RTC
M7846 RX01 controller
2 x M7814 DZ11-F
and of course the M9301, M9302 and M9202.
Alas it has just the simple 2-switch frontpanel.
The machine also had the battery backup option, and the lead/acid
batteries will celebrate their 40th birthday next year !
Better not try to charge them....
Overall the machine is in very good condition, both CPU and RX01, and it
is packed in a very nice half-height rack with the red PDP11 bezel at the
top.
Pictures next week when the machine is cleaned and reassembled,
restoration is to start next winter, after a house move which will nearly
double working area for the hobby.
This is a really nice, simple little system. It will happily run RT11 from
from the floppies. The lack of programmer console is a
little bit annoying
when debugging it but when it is operating properly the console
emulator
will be enough for most purposes. The M9301 is a rather fixed compared with
the M9312 were you can install your own boot ROMs of your own choice. For
example useful things like to have it to boot from TU58 or MSCP devices.
I guess that the CPU box is in a BA11-K box. They are incredibly heavy, but
much much easier to use compared with the BA11-L which is a pain to work
with.
The modularity of the BA11-K is also very nice. I haven't had much trouble
with the PSU modules in the BA11-Ks I have worked with. The lightbulb of
course but other than that they were fine.
Good luck and congratulations to a nice system!
Many thanks to Roland for preserving the machine, and
to Jay for acting as
an interface !
Jos
3239
days inactive
3241
days old
24 comments
13 participants
participants (13)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cc＠informatik.uni-stuttgart.de -
elson＠pico-systems.com -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
henk.gooijen＠hotmail.com -
holm＠freibergnet.de -
jdr_use＠bluewin.ch -
jos.dreesen＠bluewin.ch -
jwest＠classiccmp.org -
mattislind＠gmail.com -
pete＠petelancashire.com -
rlloken＠telus.net -
robert.jarratt＠ntlworld.com