5 Apr
1999
5 Apr
'99
5:20 p.m.
2) even if the ABS system fails it still works just
like non-ABS brakes.
unless
the vacuum (power assisted) system fails or the brake
line is cut, or (very
unlikely) the piston sticks open, the brakes will work just fine.
ABS - American Bull Shi...
I have noted one difficulty with ABS, and that is its failure to operate on
snow
and ice. Since I live in Southern California, I do not get that much snow
but,
in any quick application of my Mustang's breaks, on snow covered roads,
they always seem to lock up. Well, the pumping action occurs but, at each
application of the pump, I notice wheel lock-up. There is no stopping.
William R. Buckley
5 Apr
5 Apr
5:34 p.m.
ABS - American Bull Shi...
I have noted one difficulty with ABS, and that is its failure to operate on
snow
and ice. Since I live in Southern California, I do not get that much snow
but,
in any quick application of my Mustang's breaks, on snow covered roads,
they always seem to lock up. Well, the pumping action occurs but, at each
application of the pump, I notice wheel lock-up. There is no stopping.
William R. Buckley
Noted the same thing with my wife's Acura in New Jersey.
The bad news is (unlike the last two years) we usually get snow here.
Bill
---
bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org
Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC,
The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check.
5:46 p.m.
The thing I've always wondered is how the system
knows whether the brakes are locked because the
car is skidding or because the car is stopped.
5:53 p.m.
"Bill Sudbrink" <bill(a)chipware.com> wrote:
The thing I've always wondered is how the system
knows whether the brakes are locked because the
car is skidding or because the car is stopped.
Hi Bill
Most systems do differential breaking on different
wheels. This way they can sense a wheel spinning
that isn't currently hard breaking. When none
of the wheels will spin on there own or the spin
is below a certain speed, you have no more need for
ABS and it shuts off.
Dwight
6:36 p.m.
wheel motion sensors, something like the big GE locomotives. Some
systems used notched brake drums.
On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Bill Sudbrink wrote:
The thing I've always wondered is how the system
knows whether the brakes are locked because the
car is skidding or because the car is stopped.
M. K. Peirce
Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc.
215 Shady Lea Road,
North Kingstown, RI 02852
"Casta est qui nemo rogavit."
- Ovid
7:30 p.m.
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text
Size: 912 bytes
Desc: not available
Url :
http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990406/72071f13/at…
5:49 p.m.
Bill Pechter <pechter(a)pechter.dyndns.org> wrote:
Hi
I think people miss the point here. First, nothing short
of retro rockets will slow you fast on snow and ice. The
best rule here is "SLOW DOWN". Even rainy or dew slick
roads reduce traction a lot. ABS' generally do much better
on ice and snow than can be done manually. Yes, they generally
lock and on lock but it is much better than complete lock
as all but a trained expert would do under such conditions.
I'm not all that great a fan of ABS but I think for anyone
not trained in skid control, it will do better than most
people would do. Skid training is something that has to
be learned as an automatic reaction. It requires regular
refreshing to keep the skill in tune. It can't be learned
by reading a book, it must be experienced.
ABS will not do magic, it will in most conditions give
one a better chance than they would normally have. It won't
make up for foolish drivers.
IMHO
Dwight
ABS - American
Bull Shi...
I have noted one difficulty with ABS, and that is its failure to operate on
snow
and ice. Since I live in Southern California, I do not get that much snow
but,
in any quick application of my Mustang's breaks, on snow covered roads,
they always seem to lock up. Well, the pumping action occurs but, at each
application of the pump, I notice wheel lock-up. There is no stopping.
William R. Buckley
Noted the same thing with my wife's Acura in New Jersey.
The bad news is (unlike the last two years) we usually get snow here. 
11:14 p.m.
On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Dwight Elvey wrote:
________O/_______
O\
I think people miss the point here. First, nothing
short
of retro rockets will slow you fast on snow and ice. The
best rule here is "SLOW DOWN". Even rainy or dew slick
roads reduce traction a lot. ABS' generally do much better
on ice and snow than can be done manually. Yes, they generally
lock and on lock but it is much better than complete lock
as all but a trained expert would do under such conditions.
I'm not all that great a fan of ABS but I think for anyone
not trained in skid control, it will do better than most
people would do. Skid training is something that has to
be learned as an automatic reaction. It requires regular
refreshing to keep the skill in tune. It can't be learned
by reading a book, it must be experienced.
ABS will not do magic, it will in most conditions give
one a better chance than they would normally have. It won't
make up for foolish drivers.
IMHO
Dwight
I generally agree with your comments about 'skid control' which must
be learned so well that it becomes a conditioned reflex. And that is
somewhat difficult in that the proper reaction to a rear wheel skid is
exactly the opposite of a front wheel skid.
However, I think that you mix apples and oranges when you negate the
desirability of ABS if you are 'skid conditioned'. ABS will certainly
make you stop in a lesser distance and will also minimize the tendency to
skid. Nothing will preclude skidding under some conditions except
parking the vehicle, but ABS is a distinct benefit under most
circumstances for most drivers.
Here in Southern California where we will probably have a fender bender
when anyone empties their Thermos on the pavement, or - heaven help us -
if it showers the freeway becomes an auto wrecking yard, we need not only
ABS but a liberal dose of that uncommon faculty mistakenly called common
sense! Drive slower and keep your distance.
- don
6:47 p.m.
New subject: OT: ABS - or is it Pure BS
ABS - American Bull Shi...
I have noted one difficulty with ABS, and that is its failure to operate on
snow
and ice. Since I live in Southern California, I do not get that much snow
but,
in any quick application of my Mustang's breaks, on snow covered roads,
they always seem to lock up. Well, the pumping action occurs but, at each
application of the pump, I notice wheel lock-up. There is no stopping.
William R. Buckley
Noted the same thing with my wife's Acura in New Jersey.
The bad news is (unlike the last two years) we usually get snow here.
Bill
--- 
8:42 p.m.
New subject: OT: ABS - or is it Pure BS
Upon the date 05:47 PM 4/5/99 -0600, Jim Strickland said something like:
Okay, let's back up and consider what ABS brakes are for. They do NOT
decrease stopping distance. Even on a dry road in perfect conditions, having
the wheels turning instead of locked up will slow you down less fast.
What they are for is to give you the ability to steer when you're in a panic
stop situation. Nothing more, nothing less. By keeping the wheels turning
you retain the ability to dodge while you stop, as opposed to locking up all 4
>
> > ABS - American Bull Shi...
> >
> > I have noted one difficulty with ABS, and that is its failure to
operate
on
snow
and ice. Since I live in Southern California, I do not get that much snow
but,
in any quick application of my Mustang's breaks, on snow covered roads,
they always seem to lock up. Well, the pumping action occurs but, at each
application of the pump, I notice wheel lock-up. There is no stopping.
William R. Buckley
Noted the same thing with my wife's Acura in New Jersey.
The bad news is (unlike the last two years) we usually get snow here.
Bill
--- wheels and praying.
Exactly! When the factories were beginning to roll out prototypes and
first-production versions it was discussed in the trade press and somewhat
in the public press the ability to *control* the vehicle better during a
panic stop. Not complete control, especially on glare ice, nor ability to
shorten stopping distance, but more control than absolutely none as when
all four wheels lockup on non-ABS vehicles.
On my '98 Camry and several of its predicessors ('95 and '91 Camrys), I am
able to keep better control during winter driving in this rather hilly
town. We get avg 230 inches of snow in a normal winter. This has been a
reasonable help for me in driving. Not perfect though and probably won't
see it unless one puts spiked caterpillar treads on their car :)
It's an unpleasant surprise the first time antilock activates on a slippery
road because you expect to slide, all your instincts tell you you SHOULD
slide,
and you expect the car to slide a specific direction.
Instead, Antilock keeps
the wheels turning and you go straight. But once you realise you can *steer*
while the antilock system is pounding away, you have a lot more options to
avoid collisions. It takes practice, especially if this is your first car
with
antilock on it - I went from a 1974 vw bus to my Neon
and the first winter I
had the thing in colorado (I'd never gotten the antilocks to do anything
in California) I cursed the thing and contemplated pulling the antilock
system's
fuse out. Now that I've driven it in 3 winters I wouldn't be without it.
I agree with the folks who say "also make sure you have good tires, a good
brake system (one of the advantages of my neon that they took out later - 4
wheel disk brakes), and that you the driver know what you're doing, but I also
think that when you're used to them, ABS brakes make the car much safer.
Helped me several times in avoiding collisions with deer and turkeys which
we have a lot of just outside of town. No - no, the *real* turkeys, not
the other fool drivers :) Same goes for my wife and her '93 Jeep Cherokee
as she drives to work at 05:30 while the animals are begining to move
around at dawn or before the roads have been properly plowed. I've steered
on slick pavement around a couple different fool drivers who treat stop
signs as a suggestion all while the ABS was buzzing away. Still skidded a
bit but I steered away from the trouble.
Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa
11:42 p.m.
New subject: OT: ABS - or is it Pure BS
On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Jim Strickland wrote:
Okay, let's back up and consider what ABS brakes are for. They do NOT
decrease stopping distance. Even on a dry road in perfect conditions, having
the wheels turning instead of locked up will slow you down less fast.
What they are for is to give you the ability to steer when you're in a panic
stop situation. Nothing more, nothing less. By keeping the wheels turning
you retain the ability to dodge while you stop, as opposed to locking up all 4
wheels and praying.
Sorry, but locked up and sliding is not the quickest stop. Actually,
hitting an immovable object is, but I cannot recommend that either.
- don
ABS - American Bull Shi...
I have noted one difficulty with ABS, and that is its failure to operate on
snow
and ice. Since I live in Southern California, I do not get that much snow
but,
in any quick application of my Mustang's breaks, on snow covered roads,
they always seem to lock up. Well, the pumping action occurs but, at each
application of the pump, I notice wheel lock-up. There is no stopping.
William R. Buckley
Noted the same thing with my wife's Acura in New Jersey.
The bad news is (unlike the last two years) we usually get snow here.
Bill
--- It's an unpleasant surprise the first time
antilock activates on a slippery
road because you expect to slide, all your instincts tell you you SHOULD slide,
and you expect the car to slide a specific direction. Instead, Antilock keeps
the wheels turning and you go straight. But once you realise you can *steer*
while the antilock system is pounding away, you have a lot more options to
avoid collisions. It takes practice, especially if this is your first car with
antilock on it - I went from a 1974 vw bus to my Neon and the first winter I
had the thing in colorado (I'd never gotten the antilocks to do anything
in California) I cursed the thing and contemplated pulling the antilock system's
fuse out. Now that I've driven it in 3 winters I wouldn't be without it.
I agree with the folks who say "also make sure you have good tires, a good
brake system (one of the advantages of my neon that they took out later - 4
wheel disk brakes), and that you the driver know what you're doing, but I also
think that when you're used to them, ABS brakes make the car much safer.
--
Jim Strickland
jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
11:52 p.m.
New subject: OT: ABS - or is it Pure BS
Sorry, but locked up and sliding is not the quickest
stop. Actually,
hitting an immovable object is, but I cannot recommend that either.
- don
Eeek. Well yeah, nothing beats the sudden decelleration of hitting a
solid
object. As I think about it, I'm not entirely sure skidding isn't less
efficient than keeping the tire right at the skid point. My reason is thinking
about what happens to brakes as they heat up - they loose the ability to
grip. If the same thing happens to the tire as you skid, you'd expect
it to grip LESS well than a tire at the threshold of skidding because it's
being pumped hundreds of times a second by a computer. I'm an English
major, not a physicist (Damn it Jim, I'm a writer, not an engineer!) so I'm
basically guessing at this point.
--
Jim Strickland
jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
6 Apr
6 Apr
1:46 a.m.
New subject: OT: ABS - or is it Pure BS
Jim Strickland wrote:
I would expect skidding to be less efficient since IIRC the coefficient of
friction decreases once an object starts to slide. And of course that
coefficient of friction would vary depending on the road surface.
Sorry, but locked up and sliding is not the
quickest stop. Actually,
hitting an immovable object is, but I cannot recommend that either.
- don
Eeek. Well yeah, nothing
beats the sudden decelleration of hitting a solid
object. As I think about it, I'm not entirely sure skidding isn't less
efficient than keeping the tire right at the skid point. My reason is thinking 
7:54 a.m.
New subject: OT: ABS - or is it Pure BS
efficient than keeping the tire right at the skid
point. My reason is thinking
about what happens to brakes as they heat up - they loose the ability to
Not an issue generally as there are materials that work better when hot.
Though some auto brakes when really worked hard (like going down Mt
washington auto road) will fade. The real problem is when the tire skids
there is rubber ripped off and rolling under the tire like ball bearings
or gravel and that provides a very low coefficient of friction.
Allison
4:44 a.m.
New subject: OT: ABS - or is it Pure BS
Don Maslin wrote:
Sorry, but locked up and sliding is not the quickest stop. Actually,
hitting an immovable object is, but I cannot recommend that either.
Agreed, the shortest stopping distance ma be achievved by kkeping the
tyres just at the point where they are about to slide. This is why
cadence braking works better than just standing on the pedal.
I have seen people commplain on TV consumer programmes that ABS cused
them to crash because they couldn't stop in the available distance, they
seem to miss the point that if they couldn't stop with ABS then they
almost certainly couldn't stop manually either beacuse the road surface
was too slippery.
Regards
Pete
5 Apr
5 Apr
8:39 p.m.
On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Buck Savage wrote:
> 2) even if the ABS system fails it still works
just like non-ABS
> brakes. unless >the vacuum (power assisted) system fails or the brake
> line is cut, or (very unlikely) the piston sticks open, the brakes
> will work just fine.
ABS - American Bull Shi...
I have noted one difficulty with ABS, and that is its
failure to
operate on snow and ice. Since I live in Southern California, I do
not get that much snow but, in any quick application of my Mustang's
breaks, on snow covered roads, they always seem to lock up. Well, the
pumping action occurs but, at each application of the pump, I notice
wheel lock-up. There is no stopping.
Yah. Try a proper skid pad with ABS. You'll wind up 270 degrees from
where you were being trained to go. If you're lucky. Did my skid pad
training at Sears Point in the 70s. I don't want a machine second
guessing my judgement when I'm about to die. (If I fuck up, OK, I fuck
up. I don't want to guess right and die anyway! Born and raised in
Los Angeles, I had my initial driver training during a nasty winter in
New Hampshire -- I know how to handle a skid, and ABS systems don't
have a clue where the steering wheel is pointing -- a programming task
for the current generation, at least those who didn't learn physics
from Star Wars and the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers).
--
Ward Griffiths
"the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then
you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor
6:53 p.m.
On 5 Apr 99 at 21:39, Ward D. Griffiths III wrote:
On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Buck Savage wrote:
Having had decades of extensive driving during the long cold winters in
western Canada, Qebec and Ontario , I would consider myself a quite skilled
slippery road driver. The worst thing you can do when you go into a skid is
lock your brakes. The best is to turn into the skid and use your accellerator
and steering to bring it back under control. I would rather have any brake
action under my control and hope I can steer out of it without using them.There
are courses up here which teach this technique. ABS seems just damnright
dangerous to me, except perhaps for the complete novice who would lock his
brakes out of fear and inexperience. I have also had experiences of
power-steering failure one of which resulted in a serious accident for myself.
ciao larry
lwalker(a)interlog.com
Collectors info http://members.xoom.com/T3C
> 2) even if the ABS system fails it still
works just like non-ABS
> brakes. unless >the vacuum (power assisted) system fails or the brake
> line is cut, or (very unlikely) the piston sticks open, the brakes
> will work just fine.
ABS - American Bull Shi...
I have noted one difficulty with ABS, and that is
its failure to
operate on snow and ice. Since I live in Southern California, I do
not get that much snow but, in any quick application of my Mustang's
breaks, on snow covered roads, they always seem to lock up. Well, the
pumping action occurs but, at each application of the pump, I notice
wheel lock-up. There is no stopping.
Yah. Try a proper skid pad with ABS. You'll wind up 270 degrees from
where you were being trained to go. If you're lucky. Did my skid pad
training at Sears Point in the 70s. I don't want a machine second
guessing my judgement when I'm about to die. (If I fuck up, OK, I fuck
up. I don't want to guess right and die anyway! Born and raised in
Los Angeles, I had my initial driver training during a nasty winter in
New Hampshire -- I know how to handle a skid, and ABS systems don't
have a clue where the steering wheel is pointing -- a programming task
for the current generation, at least those who didn't learn physics
from Star Wars and the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers).
--
Ward Griffiths
"the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then
you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor
9:51 p.m.
One problem is that driving technique with ABS working is entirely
different from ABS not working. Switching approaches can be
disconcerting, and potentially dangerous.
On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Ward D.
Griffiths III wrote:
On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Buck Savage wrote:
M. K. Peirce
Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc.
215 Shady Lea Road,
North Kingstown, RI 02852
"Casta est qui nemo rogavit."
- Ovid
> 2) even if the ABS system fails it still
works just like non-ABS
> brakes. unless >the vacuum (power assisted) system fails or the brake
> line is cut, or (very unlikely) the piston sticks open, the brakes
> will work just fine.
ABS - American Bull Shi...
I have noted one difficulty with ABS, and that is
its failure to
operate on snow and ice. Since I live in Southern California, I do
not get that much snow but, in any quick application of my Mustang's
breaks, on snow covered roads, they always seem to lock up. Well, the
pumping action occurs but, at each application of the pump, I notice
wheel lock-up. There is no stopping.
Yah. Try a proper skid pad with ABS. You'll wind up 270 degrees from
where you were being trained to go. If you're lucky. Did my skid pad
training at Sears Point in the 70s. I don't want a machine second
guessing my judgement when I'm about to die. (If I fuck up, OK, I fuck
up. I don't want to guess right and die anyway! Born and raised in
Los Angeles, I had my initial driver training during a nasty winter in
New Hampshire -- I know how to handle a skid, and ABS systems don't
have a clue where the steering wheel is pointing -- a programming task
for the current generation, at least those who didn't learn physics
from Star Wars and the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers).
--
Ward Griffiths
"the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then
you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor
6 Apr
6 Apr
4:51 p.m.
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text
Size: 462 bytes
Desc: not available
Url :
http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990406/9a6de3d7/at…
7:22 a.m.
Show me one brake system that doesn't do this.
Buck Savage wrote:
2) even if the
ABS system fails it still works just like non-ABS brakes.
unless
the vacuum (power assisted) system fails or the
brake line is cut, or (very
unlikely) the piston sticks open, the brakes will work just fine.
ABS - American Bull Shi...
I have noted one difficulty with ABS, and that is its failure to operate on
snow
and ice. Since I live in Southern California, I do not get that much snow
but,
in any quick application of my Mustang's breaks, on snow covered roads,
they always seem to lock up. Well, the pumping action occurs but, at each
application of the pump, I notice wheel lock-up. There is no stopping.
William R. Buckley
9469
days inactive
9470
days old
19 comments
15 participants
participants (15)
-
allisonp＠world.std.com -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
at258＠osfn.org -
bill＠chipware.com -
bluoval＠mindspring.com -
cfandt＠netsync.net -
donm＠cts.com -
elvey＠hal.com -
gram＠cnct.com -
hhacker＠home.com -
jim＠calico.litterbox.com -
lwalker＠mail.interlog.com -
marvin＠rain.org -
pechter＠pechter.dyndns.org -
pjoules＠joules.enterprise-plc.com