19 Dec
2003
19 Dec
'03
2:38 a.m.
Jan_Wood(a)veritasdgc.com wrote:
Joe,
I just found a message you wrote back in September mentioning a selection
of old track tape drives. I run a computer department on the services
side
of the Oil industry and we specialise in maintaining and transcribing
data
from these older types of media. We have almost everything used in our
industry from analogue tapes onwards. Anyway, I am always trying to find
21, 7 and 9 track tape drives, especially old IDT's. Would you still have
the drives you mentioned in your email? If so I'd like to know if
you'd be
prepared to let them go to a good home where they can spin tapes again?
Best regards,
Jan.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr Jan T. Wood
Data Services Manager
Veritas DGC Limited.
Telephone DD: +44 (0)1293 443263
Facsimile: +44 (0)1293 443200
Mobile: 0 77 11 66 4545
From veritas about web page:
VERITAS Software Corporation (NASDAQ: VRTS) is headquartered in Mountain
View, Calif.,
and employs more than 6,300 people in 36 countries. With annualized
revenues over $1.5 billion
in 2002, VERITAS Software ranks among the top 10 software companies in
the world.
Through its award-winning and market-leading products focused on
business efficiency
and continuity, VERITAS Software provides the building blocks for
utility computing.
This is a big operation, Any transactions with this company should be on
a BUSINESS basis.
That then begs the question, Is it ethical ( for a CC'er ) to sell or
give classic equipment to
a large corporation for the profit of this operation? Most likely the
equipment will
be locked up in some machine room available at $1000/hr? It's also an
oil operation.
I'll leave the members of CC to judge. Their product is mapping data
sets for oil exploration.
One more question? Has Veritas done anything to help the CC cause?
My bad to cc/on-topic ( posted to the wrong group)
Jim Davis.
19 Dec
19 Dec
4:33 a.m.
New subject: About Veritas, Was Re: Message for Joe Heck - re. 7 Track tape drives
On Fri, 19 Dec 2003, Jim Davis wrote:
Jan_Wood(a)veritasdgc.com wrote:
> Joe,
>
This is a big operation, Any transactions with this
company should be on
a BUSINESS basis.
That then begs the question, Is it ethical ( for a CC'er ) to sell or
give classic equipment to
a large corporation for the profit of this operation? Most likely the
equipment will
be locked up in some machine room available at $1000/hr? It's also an
I think y'all need to get out more, Jim.... you've fantasized a "big
bad corporation" scenario and then proceeded to 'warn' us and bring up
questions of 'ethics' ....
But I read this as just a guy trying to support a bunch of legacy gear
in order to carry forward the huge masses of data that all big comapnies
generate - and he's found us and our concentrated resources *for just that
activity*...
Hell, man, if I had a couple of Kennedys in my storage space I wasn't
doing anything with (hmmm... I do actually...) and he needed one, was
willing to pay a reasonable price and pack/ship - there'd be no problem.
I'd be happy to have helped out!
If the guy wanted all the remaining PDP-10s on the planet for some
unspecified nefarious reason - that'd be different. - But he's facing what
most of us have to deal with on a smaller scale - part of his job is
keeping machinery and systems alive so that old data can be archived and
(perhaps) used by current EPD environments.
I don't get what the size of the company has to do with anything? What
if he worked for NASA? General Motors? Boeing? Phoenix Aerospace?
All the same to me. YMMV
One more question? Has Veritas done anything to help
the CC cause?
I dunno - ask 'em. Perhaps in their efforts to they have uncovered and
are using some really rare parts of Legacy Computing - thus preserving it
instead of scrapping it.
Why don't you write this person and ask him these rather overheated
questions? But I'd prefer it very much if you make it clear you speak for
yourself and NOT FOR ME... because you don't!
Cheers
John
5:28 a.m.
New subject: About Veritas, Was Re: Message for Joe Heck - re. 7 Track tape drives
John Lawson wrote:
Did I say that I represented you or CC? I simply asked some questions
about this operation?
Just replace "ethics" with "a bad idea", It was early when I posted
the original message.
How are my questions any different than the broiling the chip collector
received??
On Fri, 19 Dec 2003, Jim Davis wrote:
Nowhere did I use the word "warn", I feel these are ligit questions,
This company produces high
priced datasets for the oil exploration industry. Did I gore your bull?
As for the "big bad corporation"
I've been on the receiving end of corporate mentality for too long,
what with downsizing, outsourcing,
backstabbing, bogus stock offers, illegal dealings and promises of
riches if i'd only put in 80 Hr weeks.
Corporations exist to make money,not to "preserve" equipment, jobs or
anything else.
Jan_Wood(a)veritasdgc.com wrote:
>Joe,
>
>
>
This is a big operation, Any transactions with
this company should be on
a BUSINESS basis.
That then begs the question, Is it ethical ( for a CC'er ) to sell or
give classic equipment to
a large corporation for the profit of this operation? Most likely the
equipment will
be locked up in some machine room available at $1000/hr? It's also an
I think y'all need to get out more, Jim.... you've fantasized a "big
bad corporation" scenario and then proceeded to 'warn' us and bring up
questions of 'ethics' ....
But I read this as just a guy trying to support a bunch of legacy gear
in order to carry forward the huge masses of data that all big comapnies
generate - and he's found us and our concentrated resources *for just that
activity*...
Hell, man, if I had a couple of Kennedys in my storage space I wasn't
doing anything with (hmmm... I do actually...) and he needed one, was
willing to pay a reasonable price and pack/ship - there'd be no problem.
I'd be happy to have helped out!
If the guy wanted all the remaining PDP-10s on the planet for some
unspecified nefarious reason - that'd be different. - But he's facing what
most of us have to deal with on a smaller scale - part of his job is
keeping machinery and systems alive so that old data can be archived and
(perhaps) used by current EPD environments.
I don't get what the size of the company has to do with anything? What
if he worked for NASA? General Motors? Boeing? Phoenix Aerospace?
All the same to me. YMMV
It's rather disingenous to include NASA with some of the largest
corporations in the US, I was just
saying that you should get the most $$$ from an operation like veritus.
It's dumb to not do otherwise.
One more
question? Has Veritas done anything to help the CC cause?
I dunno - ask 'em. Perhaps in their efforts to they have uncovered and
are using some really rare parts of Legacy Computing - thus preserving it
instead of scrapping it.
Why don't you write this person and ask him these rather overheated
questions? But I'd prefer it very much if you make it clear you speak for
yourself and NOT FOR ME... because you don't!
Cheers
John
5:57 a.m.
New subject: About Veritas, Was Re: Message for Joe Heck - re. 7 Track tape drives
Lest this turn rapidly into a 'who said what' - I think the meta-issue
is, as you aptly termed it - a "broiling" of folks who contact The List
with commercial interests in mind.
Someone who wants to tear up old iron to get the one chip that they can
sell onEbay for big bux ought, IMHO, to have various voltages applied to
sensitive regions of thier bodies.
But we have an odd propensity for excoriating posters who don't really
know much about what we do or what our interests are - rather thna taking
a bit of time to politely educate them.
All this is getting to the definition of the boundaries between
'amateur' and 'professional/commercial' and where we, as private
collectors and hobbyists, stand in realtion to these issues. Also the
perennial love/hate eBay issues come up - what aspects of commercial
legacy computing helps the Hobby? What damages it?
Cheers
John
6:31 a.m.
New subject: About Veritas, Was Re: Message for Joe Heck - re. 7 Track tape drives
On Fri, 19 Dec 2003, John Lawson wrote:
All this is getting to the definition of the
boundaries between
'amateur' and 'professional/commercial' and where we, as private
collectors and hobbyists, stand in realtion to these issues. Also the
perennial love/hate eBay issues come up - what aspects of commercial
legacy computing helps the Hobby? What damages it?
While this has always been and remains a (cherised) hobby for me, it is
also a very commercial interest as I have turned it into such for myself
(mostly because I don't want to have a real job). Heck, every message I
post is a blatant advertisement (see the proof below).
Look, there's enough to go around for everyone. This mailing list serves
a panorama of various uses: hobbyist, commercial, even sociological (in
the future, people will surely study our messages to understand the
dynamics of a dysfunctional online group :) People in business who need
old computing resources would be stupid to find out about us and then just
pass us by thinking that they shouldn't disturb our cozy little world.
So in conclusion, what I'm trying to say is that I agree with Juan.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
6:52 a.m.
New subject: About Veritas, Was Re: Message for Joe Heck - re. 7 Track tape drives
Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
On Fri, 19 Dec 2003, John Lawson wrote:
I think if equipment was supplied, a great deal would be to arrange
access to their stable of data conversion
equipment.in trade, With unlimited access? ;-)
Jim Davis.
All this is getting to the definition of the
boundaries between
'amateur' and 'professional/commercial' and where we, as private
collectors and hobbyists, stand in realtion to these issues. Also the
perennial love/hate eBay issues come up - what aspects of commercial
legacy computing helps the Hobby? What damages it?
While this has always been and remains a (cherised) hobby for me, it is
also a very commercial interest as I have turned it into such for myself
(mostly because I don't want to have a real job). Heck, every message I
post is a blatant advertisement (see the proof below).
Look, there's enough to go around for everyone. This mailing list serves
a panorama of various uses: hobbyist, commercial, even sociological (in
the future, people will surely study our messages to understand the
dynamics of a dysfunctional online group :) People in business who need
old computing resources would be stupid to find out about us and then just
pass us by thinking that they shouldn't disturb our cozy little world.
So in conclusion, what I'm trying to say is that I agree with Juan.
8:32 a.m.
New subject: About Veritas, Was Re: Message for Joe Heck - re. 7 Track tape drives
On Fri, 19 Dec 2003, Jim Davis wrote:
I think if equipment was supplied, a great deal would
be to arrange
access to their stable of data conversion equipment.in trade, With
unlimited access? ;-)
Now you're getting it! :) This is a perfectly acceptable solution. If
they need your equipment bad enough, they'll agree (make sure to get it in
writing: full contract and all). If not, it's their loss.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
6:21 a.m.
New subject: About Veritas, Was Re: Message for Joe Heck - re. 7 Track tape drives
Time for me to chime in here...
As for the "big bad corporation" I've
been on the receiving end of
corporate mentality for too long, what with downsizing, outsourcing,
backstabbing, bogus stock offers, illegal dealings and promises of
riches if i'd only put in 80 Hr weeks. Corporations exist to make
money,not to "preserve" equipment, jobs or anything else.
Sounds like someone's been burned one too many times. Look, if you can't
beat 'em (and you never will) then join 'em: start your own corporation!
It's rather disingenous to include NASA with some
of the largest
corporations in the US, I was just saying that you should get the most
$$$ from an operation like veritus.
That goes without saying. But I think it was fairly obvious to anyone who
read the original message that it was a corporate data center of concern.
That being said, I don't encourage gouging no matter who is being gouged.
However, there's nothing wrong with charging what the market will bear.
There's a difference. If the gougee knows they're being gouged, they'll
find someone else.
How are my questions any different than the broiling
the chip collector
received??
Thanks. I think you just conjured up the "John Galt" wraith. I'm sure
we'll be hearing from goober any minute now.
But anyway, do you really want to drag THAT issue up again? Aside from
the fact that it's a total non sequitur, I really don't see the value in
doing so.
Look, I hate Big Oil as much as the next guy (probably more so), but
there's no reason to turn down good money. You can go so far as to
spearhead a campaign to make sure no vintage computer enthusiast will ever
help any big, evil corporate data center, but there will always be
someone, somewhere, who hasn't signed the oath of loyalty, and they'll
profit handsomely from it.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
6:49 a.m.
New subject: About Veritas, Was Re: Message for Joe Heck - re. 7 Track tape drives
Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
Time for me to chime in here...
<snip>
<snip>
How is tearing apart big iron for a chip and sequestering a exceedingly
rare piece of equipment
not the same thing? Both are gone forever.
Jim Davis.
How are my questions any different than the
broiling the chip collector
received??
Thanks. I think you just conjured up the "John Galt" wraith. I'm sure
we'll be hearing from goober any minute now.
But anyway, do you really want to drag THAT issue up again? Aside from
the fact that it's a total non sequitur, I really don't see the value in
doing so.
8:28 a.m.
New subject: About Veritas, Was Re: Message for Joe Heck - re. 7 Track tape drives
On Fri, 19 Dec 2003, Jim Davis wrote:
How is tearing apart big iron for a chip and
sequestering a exceedingly
rare piece of equipment not the same thing? Both are gone forever.
Because you're making assumptions and speaking in hypotheticals.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
4:57 a.m.
New subject: About Veritas, Was Re: Message for Joe Heck - re. 7 Track tape drives
Jim,
You know, you might want to make sure you've got the right company first here is the
website for "Veritas DGC Limited" http://www.veritasdgc.com/ They most
definitly are not Veritas Software Corporation. As for the the question of is it ethical
to sell or give to a large corporation, I don't see giving, but I can sure see
selling. Selling to industries that have need of some of the equipment that Hobbyists
have saved can be a good way of offsetting the storage costs of ones collection.
What's more ethical, hoarding equipment that someone desperately needs, and never
doing anything useful with it, or selling it to someone that needs it?
Zane
--
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
Mr Jan T. Wood
Data Services Manager
Veritas DGC Limited.
Telephone DD: +44 (0)1293 443263
Facsimile: +44 (0)1293 443200
Mobile: 0 77 11 66 4545
From veritas about web page:
VERITAS Software Corporation (NASDAQ: VRTS) is headquartered in Mountain View, Calif.,
and employs more than 6,300 people in 36 countries. With annualized revenues over $1.5
billion
in 2002, VERITAS Software ranks among the top 10 software companies in the world.
Through its award-winning and market-leading products focused on business efficiency
and continuity, VERITAS Software provides the building blocks for utility computing.
This is a big operation, Any transactions with this company should be on a BUSINESS
basis.
That then begs the question, Is it ethical ( for a CC'er ) to sell or give classic
equipment to
a large corporation for the profit of this operation? Most likely the equipment will
be locked up in some machine room available at $1000/hr? It's also an oil operation.
I'll leave the members of CC to judge. Their product is mapping data sets for oil
exploration.
One more question? Has Veritas done anything to help the CC cause?
My bad to cc/on-topic ( posted to the wrong group)
Jim Davis. 
5:19 a.m.
Jim,
I kinda agree with you, we here to help each other on a more peer-to-peer
basis and while I myself am a consultant and utilize some of my CC contacts
for doing work, I still try to provide these services on a fair basis to
more hobbyists and individuals and my rates certainly reflect that as
well.... I don't think the big guys should receive stuff from us only to
turn around and charge us and others for big profit...
The better solution is seeing this type of equipment going to a hobbyist
or hobbyist/consultant who can then charge the big guys for their
services..... we are all collecting, exhibiting and helping for mostly out
of pocket and some big firm cash should be channeling in some shape, form or
fashion back into our collective list to help us keep going, pay our own
bills and keep our collections, and to keep us from having to bow out
because we can't make money to keep going to because big corporate just got
a ton of stuff and services for free and we are left out in the cold.
Curt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Davis" <jpdavis(a)gorge.net>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 11:38 AM
Subject: About Veritas,Was Re: Message for Joe Heck - re. 7 Track tape
drives
------------------------
Jan_Wood(a)veritasdgc.com wrote:
> Joe,
>
> I just found a message you wrote back in September mentioning a
selection
> of old track tape drives. I run a computer
department on the services
> side
> of the Oil industry and we specialise in maintaining and transcribing
> data
> from these older types of media. We have almost everything used in our
> industry from analogue tapes onwards. Anyway, I am always trying to find
> 21, 7 and 9 track tape drives, especially old IDT's. Would you still
have
the drives you
mentioned in your email? If so I'd like to know if
you'd be
prepared to let them go to a good home where they can spin tapes again?
Best regards,
Jan.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr Jan T. Wood
Data Services Manager
Veritas DGC Limited.
Telephone DD: +44 (0)1293 443263
Facsimile: +44 (0)1293 443200
Mobile: 0 77 11 66 4545
From veritas about web page:
VERITAS Software Corporation (NASDAQ: VRTS) is headquartered in Mountain
View, Calif.,
and employs more than 6,300 people in 36 countries. With annualized
revenues over $1.5 billion
in 2002, VERITAS Software ranks among the top 10 software companies in
the world.
Through its award-winning and market-leading products focused on
business efficiency
and continuity, VERITAS Software provides the building blocks for
utility computing.
This is a big operation, Any transactions with this company should be on
a BUSINESS basis.
That then begs the question, Is it ethical ( for a CC'er ) to sell or
give classic equipment to
a large corporation for the profit of this operation? Most likely the
equipment will
be locked up in some machine room available at $1000/hr? It's also an
oil operation.
I'll leave the members of CC to judge. Their product is mapping data
sets for oil exploration.
One more question? Has Veritas done anything to help the CC cause?
My bad to cc/on-topic ( posted to the wrong group)
Jim Davis.
7674
days inactive
7674
days old
11 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
-
curt＠atarimuseum.com -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
jpdavis＠gorge.net -
jpl15＠panix.com -
vcf＠siconic.com