23 Nov
2013
23 Nov
'13
1:24 p.m.
Hi,
Ever since I first saw them at the University where I worked in the late
80's and early 90's, I wished I had one to experiment with myself, but they
have neither gotten cheap nor plentiful over the years. My first computers
ran CP/M, SCO Unix, then SunOS on a SPARC-4/110.
So my 11/53 just arrived, and my 11/73 is on it's way, both in BA23 chassis.
Inventory of the 11/53 is:
KDJ11-D/S CPU
Dataram 4093 with 2MB RAM
RQDX3 controller
The power supply checks good, the cabinet is remarkably clean inside,
and I get the countdown from the console port, then it tries to boot
from a TEAC drive I had that matched the smashed one
that came with the
system. No network card in this one, but the 11/73 will have a
Delqa
with it.
I'm pleased there are still so many links that haven't expired to
documentation, and nice web pages and youtube videos by others like
myself who have resurrected these systems.
I wish I hadn't thrown out all my MFM drives, years ago when I moved, since
I don't think I can do much more until the 11/73 with a hard drive shows up,
and that machine will have the Delqa card too.
I have some questions that I have either not been able to answer, or for
which I've found confusing answers.
- What are the rules for cards & slots in a BA23?
- If I wanted to get bsd2.11 running on either of these, do I need an
additional board with some kind of RTC, or some other hardware than I
already have? (I see comments about an MXV11-B, at least for 11/23 users?)
- I can't find a Dataram 4093 manual online. I might never need it, but I'd
like documentation for all the cards in my system.
- Is there some kind of diagnostics I can perhaps use PUTR to copy onto
a bootable floppy, that would do further hardware tests? I'm not even
clear if the ROM power-on memory test is thorough.
I've found useful references from hobyists working with similar hardware:
http://home.windstream.net/engdahl/pdp-11.htm
http://www.retrocomputingtasmania.com/members/nw-retrocomputingtasmania-com…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGTX13MnRLQ (and the followup videos)
http://lordkalvan.typepad.com/blog/2009/11/nablopomo-dec-micro-pdp-1173.html
Mark
--
Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com)
23 Nov
23 Nov
2:22 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark G Thomas
Sent: 23 November 2013 21:25
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: my pdp11/53 and pdp11/73
Hi,
Ever since I first saw them at the University where I worked in the late
80's
and early 90's, I wished I had one to experiment
with myself, but they
have
neither gotten cheap nor plentiful over the years. My
first computers ran
CP/M, SCO Unix, then SunOS on a SPARC-4/110.
So my 11/53 just arrived, and my 11/73 is on it's way, both in BA23
chassis.
Inventory of the 11/53 is:
KDJ11-D/S CPU
Dataram 4093 with 2MB RAM
RQDX3 controller
The power supply checks good, the cabinet is remarkably clean inside, and
I
get the countdown from the console port, then it tries
to boot from a TEAC
drive I had that matched the smashed one that came with the system. No
network card in this one, but the 11/73 will have a Delqa with it.
I'm pleased there are still so many links that haven't expired to
documentation, and nice web pages and youtube videos by others like
myself who have resurrected these systems.
I wish I hadn't thrown out all my MFM drives, years ago when I moved,
since
I don't think I can do much more until the 11/73
with a hard drive shows
up,
and that machine will have the Delqa card too.
I have some questions that I have either not been able to answer, or for
which I've found confusing answers.
- What are the rules for cards & slots in a BA23?
You can find online manuals about the BA23 here:
http://manx.classiccmp.org/search.php?cp=1&q=ba23
Regards
Rob
24 Nov
24 Nov
9:12 a.m.
On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 1:24 PM, Mark G Thomas <Mark at misty.com> wrote:
So my 11/53 just arrived, and my 11/73 is on it's way, both in BA23 chassis.
Inventory of the 11/53 is:
KDJ11-D/S CPU
Dataram 4093 with 2MB RAM
RQDX3 controller
- If I wanted to get bsd2.11 running on either of
these, do I need an
additional board with some kind of RTC, or some other hardware than I
already have? (I see comments about an MXV11-B, at least for 11/23 users?)
Is your M7554 KDJ11-D 11/53 the 512KB version or the 1.5MB version?
With an additional 2MB RAM card you should be good. With the 2
on-board SLU interfaces at a minimum the only other thing you need is
a suitable storage controller and storage device to run 2.11BSD.
If you have a working M7555 RQDX3 but no hard drive the challenge
would be to find a working RD54 or equivalent, and then the next
challenge would be to get a 2.11BSD image on the hard drive. If you
also had a tape controller and tape drive you could do things the
traditional way and boot from tape and install 2.11BSD from tape. If
you have lots of patience you might be able to create a disk image
using SIMH or another PDP-11 emulator and then transfer that image to
the real hardware disk through the serial interface. I have never
attempted that myself.
The easiest way is find a Q-Bus SCSI controller. With something like
a CMD CQD-200 or CQD-220 you could connect both a SCSI hard drive and
a SCSI tape drive. I have installed 2.11BSD using CMD SCSI
controllers and Exabyte 8MM SCSI tape drives numerous times. Or you
can also create the disk image on an emulator and then 'dd' the image
to the SCSI disk from a PC host.
- Is there some kind of diagnostics I can perhaps use
PUTR to copy onto
a bootable floppy, that would do further hardware tests? I'm not even
clear if the ROM power-on memory test is thorough
If you haven't already discovered this yourself, you should start with
the XXDP diagnostics.
http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/discimages/rl02/
xxdp25.rl02.gz
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/
PDP11_DiagnosticHandbook_1988.pdf
If you boot the XXDP 2.5 RL02 disk image in SIMH or another PDP-11
emulator you should then be able to create a bootable RX-33 floppy
image and copy a subset of the diagnostics that are relevant for your
hardware configuration to the image, and then create a physical floppy
from that image to boot on your real hardware.
For example there is the OKDD?? diagnostic specific to the M7554
KDJ11-D 11/53 and the OKDA?? diagnostic specific to the M8190 KDJ11-B
11/73, and various memory diagnostics.
-Glen
25 Nov
25 Nov
1:21 p.m.
The easiest way is find a Q-Bus SCSI controller. With
something like
a CMD CQD-200 or CQD-220 you could connect both a SCSI hard drive and
a SCSI tape drive. I have installed 2.11BSD using CMD SCSI
controllers and Exabyte 8MM SCSI tape drives numerous times. Or you
can also create the disk image on an emulator and then 'dd' the image
to the SCSI disk from a PC host.
Hello, I wonder if the same possible with DILOG SQ706 or EMULEX UC07 controllers? They
seems to be cheaper isn't it?
26 Nov
26 Nov
7:08 a.m.
On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Andriy Romanenko <bigral at hotmail.com> wrote:
I haven't used an Emulex UC07 myself. One of those should work fine,
except that they are either MSCP, or TMSCP, but not both at the same
time. So you couldn't install from a SCSI tape drive to a SCSI disk
drive at the same time with a single UC07, unless you have the more
expensive dual controller versions.
As an example I suppose these UC07 currently for $239 aren't too bad
of a price if you want to get a Q-Bus system going with SCSI disks and
can't find anything less expensive:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/141122593003
I have a few CMD CQD controllers and paid less than that for them on
average over the years although I haven't looked at their typical
price and availability on the usual sources recently. The CQD-200 and
CQD-220 were sold in /M (MSCP only) /T (TMSCP only) and /TM (both
TMSCP and MSCP) versions. The /M and /T versions can be converted into
/TM versions by swapping the EPROMs and CSR decode PAL.
I have also used Dilog SQ706A and SQ3706A controllers and they also
work well but are MSCP disk only. I got one SQ3706A cheap as it was
sold as a SQ3703A TMSCP tape controller and I just replaced the EPROM
with the MSCP version.
-Glen
The easiest
way is find a Q-Bus SCSI controller. With something like
a CMD CQD-200 or CQD-220 you could connect both a SCSI hard drive and
a SCSI tape drive. I have installed 2.11BSD using CMD SCSI
controllers and Exabyte 8MM SCSI tape drives numerous times. Or you
can also create the disk image on an emulator and then 'dd' the image
to the SCSI disk from a PC host.
Hello, I wonder if the same possible with DILOG SQ706 or EMULEX UC07 controllers? They
seems to be cheaper isn't it?
7:17 p.m.
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Glen Slick
<glen.slick at gmail.com> wrote:
Only if you actually do it this time :)
I sent you SQ3706A firmware images almost a year ago, Dec 10, 2012 at
3:54 PM, if you still have email archived from back then. I'll resend
again.
-Glen
I got one SQ3706A cheap as it was
sold as a SQ3703A TMSCP tape controller and I just replaced the EPROM
with the MSCP version.
I'll need to do that for mine. Can you help me with the ROM image?
-ethan 
5:19 p.m.
Andriy Romanenko wrote:
The easiest way
is find a Q-Bus SCSI controller. With something like
a CMD CQD-200 or CQD-220 you could connect both a SCSI hard drive and
a SCSI tape drive. I have installed 2.11BSD using CMD SCSI
controllers and Exabyte 8MM SCSI tape drives numerous times. Or you
can also create the disk image on an emulator and then 'dd' the image
to the SCSI disk from a PC host.
Hello, I wonder if the same possible with DILOG SQ706 or EMULEX UC07 controllers?
They seems to be cheaper isn't it?
8 Dec
8 Dec
8:54 a.m.
Hi,
On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 04:24:31PM -0500, Mark G Thomas wrote:
So my 11/53 just arrived, and my 11/73 is on it's
way, both in BA23 chassis.
Inventory of the 11/53 is:
KDJ11-D/S CPU
Dataram 4093 with 2MB RAM
RQDX3 controller
I've made good progress on the 11/53, and successfully installed
BSD2.11 a MFM drive, by booting from an Emulex UC07 and DLT-8000
SCSI tape drive to perform the install. Ideally I'd like to get
the OS on a SCSI hard drive, but I'm having trouble getting BSD2.11
to recognize the UC07 as a second MSCP disk controller, which would
be the easiest way at this point.
I'm not having much luck with my 11/73, which turned out to
be an 11/83, for which I also now have a spare 11/83 and 11/73-B
CPU. In my 11/83 system, "MAP" shows the address the MSCP or TMSCP
address the UC07 is jumpered for, but nothing (blank line) under
"Device Type" for that address, no "DU" or "MU" description
like
from "MAP" on the 11/53. If I try to get into
F.R.D. with @17772150/...,
it just spits out a question mark, as if nothing is at
the address.
Do I have to do something in SETUP mode an 11/73B or 11/83 CPU to
make it "see" MSCP controllers at specific addresses? Should it
be reporting a DU or MU Device Type in MAP, instead of blank lines?
Right now my CPUs are set to the "Initialize the Setup table" defaults.
- Several different CPUs behave the same way.
- I assume there might be a correlation between the problem with F.R.D.
and the fact the device isn't showing up like on the 11/53 in MAP,
but I don't really know since I've never seen it work right on an 11/83.
- I've tried this in two different Q-BUS BA23 chassis. Same results.
- I'm having similar results with other kinds of MSCP controllers with
the 11/83 CPUs. I haven't gotten anywhere with them either.
Mark
--
Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com)
11:23 a.m.
I don't think that MAP in a 11/83 (at least for KDJ11-B ROM V7.0)
displays the device type for non-CPU CSR. ODT does respond though.
On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 11:54 AM, Mark G Thomas <Mark at misty.com> wrote:
I'm not having much luck with my 11/73, which turned out to
be an 11/83, for which I also now have a spare 11/83 and 11/73-B
CPU. In my 11/83 system, "MAP" shows the address the MSCP or TMSCP
address the UC07 is jumpered for, but nothing (blank line) under
"Device Type" for that address, no "DU" or "MU" description
like
from "MAP" on the 11/53. If I try to get into F.R.D. with @17772150/...,
it just spits out a question mark, as if nothing is at the address.
Here is what I get from my 11/73 with the quad height CPU (M8190-AB):
---------------------------
< power on >
Testing in progress - Please wait
Memory Size is 2048 K Bytes
9 Step memory test
Step 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Message 04 Entering Dialog mode
Commands are Help, Boot, List, Setup, Map and Test.
Type a command then press the RETURN key: M
15.206 MHz
Memory Map
Starting Ending Size in CSR CSR Bus
Address address K Bytes address type type
00000000 - 07777776 2048 17772100 Parity Qbus
Press the RETURN key when ready to continue
I/O page Map
Starting Ending
Address address
17760334 - 17760336
17765000 - 17765776 CPU ROM or EEPROM
17772100 Memory CSR
17772150 - 17772152
17772200 - 17772276 Supervisor I and D PDR/PAR's
17772300 - 17772376 Kernel I and D PDR/PAR's
17772516 MMR3
17773000 - 17773776 CPU ROM
17774440 - 17774456
17777520 - 17777524 BCSR, PCR, BCR/BDR
17777546 Clock CSR
17777560 - 17777566 Console SLU
17777572 - 17777576 MMR0,1,2
17777600 - 17777676 User I and D PDR/PAR's
17777744 - 17777752 MSER, CCR, MREG, Hit/Miss
17777766 CPU Error
17777772 PIRQ
Press the RETURN key when ready to continue
I/O page Map
Starting Ending
Address address
17777776 PSW
Commands are Help, Boot, List, Setup, Map and Test.
Type a command then press the RETURN key:
< sent break to get into ODT >
165216
@17772150/000000
17772152/005400
17772154/?
@17760334/177777
17760336/005500
17760340/?
@
-----------
There is a CQD-220M, RQDX3, and DELQA installed.
-chuck
1:20 p.m.
Charles Dickman wrote:
I don't think that MAP in a 11/83 (at least for
KDJ11-B ROM V7.0)
displays the device type for non-CPU CSR. ODT does respond though.
On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 11:54 AM, Mark G Thomas <Mark at misty.com> wrote:
Same from me.. seems that my PDP11 was last booted on Jul 24 2012, shame on
me...
Testing in progress - Please wait
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Commands are Help, Boot, List, Setup, Map and Test.
Type a command then press the RETURN key: MAP
18.000 MHz
CPU Options: FPA
Memory Map
Starting Ending Size in CSR CSR Bus
Address address K Bytes address type type
00000000 - 07777776 2048 17772102 ECC PMI
Press the RETURN key when ready to continue
I/O page Map
Starting Ending
Address address
17760500 - 17760536
17765000 - 17765776 CPU ROM or EEPROM
17772102 Memory CSR
17772150 - 17772152
17772200 - 17772276 Supervisor I and D PDR/PAR's
17772300 - 17772376 Kernel I and D PDR/PAR's
17772516 MMR3
17773000 - 17773776 CPU ROM
17774440 - 17774456
17774500 - 17774502
17777520 - 17777524 BCSR, PCR, BCR/BDR
17777546 Clock CSR
17777560 - 17777566 Console SLU
17777572 - 17777576 MMR0,1,2
17777600 - 17777676 User I and D PDR/PAR's
17777744 - 17777752 MSER, CCR, MREG, Hit/Miss
17777766 CPU Error
Press the RETURN key when ready to continue
I/O page Map
Starting Ending
Address address
17777772 PIRQ
17777776 PSW
Commands are Help, Boot, List, Setup, Map and Test.
Type a command then press the RETURN key: LIST
Device Unit
name numbers Source Device type
DU 0-255 CPU ROM RDnn, RXnn, RC25, RAnn
DL 0-3 CPU ROM RL01, RL02
DX 0-1 CPU ROM RX01
DY 0-1 CPU ROM RX02
DD 0-1 CPU ROM TU58
DK 0-7 CPU ROM RK05
MU 0-255 CPU ROM TKnn, TU81
MS 0-3 CPU ROM TK25, TS05
XH 0-1 CPU ROM DECNET ETHERNET
NU 0-15 CPU ROM DECNET DUV11
NE 0-15 CPU ROM DECNET DLV11-E
NF 0-15 CPU ROM DECNET DLV11-F
Commands are Help, Boot, List, Setup, Map and Test.
Type a command then press the RETURN key: B DU0
Trying DU0
Starting system from DU0
RT-11XM (S) V05.07
.SET RUN VBGEXE
.LOAD DU
.LOAD LD
.INITIALIZE/NOQUERY VM:
.ASS VM0 CF
.ASS VM0 WF
.SHOW MEMORY
------- Extended Memory --------
Address Module Words Type
------- ------ ----- ----
17760000 IOPAGE 4096. PRM HDW BYP
10000000 MEMTOP
00760000 VM 921600. SHR
00261600 ...... 81472.
00247200 SL 2688. PVT
00241200 MU 1536. PVT
00216000 NQ 4928. PVT
00207400 SP 1664. SHR
00165000 DU 4736. PVT
00160000 MCA 1280. PRM
00000000 KERNEL 28672. PRM HDW
------ Low Memory -------
Address Module Words
------- ------ -----
156724 DU 278.
116010 RMON 8422.
114262 LD 427.
102214 USR 2579.
001000 ..BG.. 16710.
.DATE
?KMON-W-No date
.
Oh, sorry, forgot which disk is 2.11BSD on...
Testing in progress - Please wait
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Commands are Help, Boot, List, Setup, Map and Test.
Type a command then press the RETURN key: B DU2
Trying DU2
Starting system from DU2
83Boot from ra(0,2,0) at 0172150
Press <CR> to boot, or any other key to abort: 0
: ra(0,2,0)unix
Boot: bootdev=02420 bootcsr=0172150
2.11 BSD UNIX #8: Sat Jul 21 18:11:58 MET DST 2012
root at eleven.tsht.lan:/usr/src/sys/ELEVEN
ra0: Ver 5 mod 13
ra2: RA81 size=4433684
attaching qe0 csr 174440
qe0: DEC DELQA addr 08:00:2b:0d:a9:a3
attaching lo0
phys mem = 2097152
avail mem = 1716160
user mem = 307200
July 24 09:23:57 init: configure system
dhv 0 csr 160500 vector 320 attached
dhv 1 csr 160520 vector 330 attached
ra 0 csr 172150 vector 154 vectorset attached
rl ? csr 174400 vector 160 skipped: No autoconfig routines.
tms 0 csr 174500 vector 260 vectorset attached
Automatic reboot in progress...
Tue Jul 24 09:24:09 PDT 2012
/dev/ra2a: 574 files, 3375 used, 35998 free
/dev/rra2d: 2 files, 2 used, 29528 free
/dev/rra2h: 371 files, 25282 used, 1689560 free
/dev/rra2g: 22982 files, 142667 used, 253238 free
Tue Jul 24 09:52:21 PDT 2012
checking quotas: done.
Assuming NETWORKING system ...
add host eleven: gateway localhost
add net default: gateway 192.168.50.254
starting system logger
checking for core dump...
Jul 24 09:52:46 eleven vmunix: ra0: Ver 5 mod 13
Jul 24 09:52:46 eleven vmunix: ra2: RA81 size=4433684
preserving editor files
clearing /tmp
standard daemons: update cron accounting.
starting network daemons: inetd rwhod printer.
starting local daemons: sendmail.
Tue Jul 24 09:53:04 PDT 2012
Jul 24 09:53:06 eleven July 24 09:53:05 init: kernel security level changed from 0 to 1
2.11 BSD UNIX (eleven.tsht.lan) (console)
login:: root
Password:
erase, kill ^U, intr ^C
#
ping google.com
PING google.com (173.194.70.113): 56 data bytes
64 bytes from 173.194.70.113: icmp_seq=0 ttl=49 time=60 ms
64 bytes from 173.194.70.113: icmp_seq=1 ttl=49 time=40 ms
64 bytes from 173.194.70.113: icmp_seq=2 ttl=49 time=40 ms
64 bytes from 173.194.70.113: icmp_seq=3 ttl=49 time=40 ms
64 bytes from 173.194.70.113: icmp_seq=4 ttl=49 time=40 ms
64 bytes from 173.194.70.113: icmp_seq=5 ttl=49 time=40 ms
64 bytes from 173.194.70.113: icmp_seq=6 ttl=49 time=40 ms
64 bytes from 173.194.70.113: icmp_seq=7 ttl=49 time=40 ms
^C
--- google.com ping statistics ---
8 packets transmitted, 8 packets received, 0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max = 40/0/60 ms
# BSD eleven.tsht.lan 2.11 2.11 BSD UNIX #8: Sat Jul 21 18:11:58 MET DST 2012 root at
eleven.tsht.lan:/usr/src/sys/ELEVEN pdp11
## ifconfig qe0
qe0: flags=63<UP,BROADCAST,NOTRAILERS,RUNNING>
inet 192.168.50.51 netmask ffffff00 broadcast 192.168.50.255
#
Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
I'm not having much luck with my 11/73, which turned out to
be an 11/83, for which I also now have a spare 11/83 and 11/73-B
CPU. In my 11/83 system, "MAP" shows the address the MSCP or TMSCP
address the UC07 is jumpered for, but nothing (blank line) under
"Device Type" for that address, no "DU" or "MU" description
like
from "MAP" on the 11/53. If I try to get into F.R.D. with @17772150/...,
it just spits out a question mark, as if nothing is at the address.
Here is what I get from my 11/73 with the quad height CPU (M8190-AB):
---------------------------
< power on >
Testing in progress - Please wait
Memory Size is 2048 K Bytes
9 Step memory test
Step 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Message 04 Entering Dialog mode
Commands are Help, Boot, List, Setup, Map and Test.
Type a command then press the RETURN key: M
15.206 MHz
Memory Map
Starting Ending Size in CSR CSR Bus
Address address K Bytes address type type
00000000 - 07777776 2048 17772100 Parity Qbus
Press the RETURN key when ready to continue
I/O page Map
Starting Ending
Address address
17760334 - 17760336
17765000 - 17765776 CPU ROM or EEPROM
17772100 Memory CSR
17772150 - 17772152
17772200 - 17772276 Supervisor I and D PDR/PAR's
17772300 - 17772376 Kernel I and D PDR/PAR's
17772516 MMR3
17773000 - 17773776 CPU ROM
17774440 - 17774456
17777520 - 17777524 BCSR, PCR, BCR/BDR
17777546 Clock CSR
17777560 - 17777566 Console SLU
17777572 - 17777576 MMR0,1,2
17777600 - 17777676 User I and D PDR/PAR's
17777744 - 17777752 MSER, CCR, MREG, Hit/Miss
17777766 CPU Error
17777772 PIRQ
Press the RETURN key when ready to continue
I/O page Map
Starting Ending
Address address
17777776 PSW
Commands are Help, Boot, List, Setup, Map and Test.
Type a command then press the RETURN key:
< sent break to get into ODT >
165216
@17772150/000000
17772152/005400
17772154/?
@17760334/177777
17760336/005500
17760340/?
@
-----------
There is a CQD-220M, RQDX3, and DELQA installed.
-chuck
11:23 a.m.
Mark G Thomas wrote:
Hi,
On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 04:24:31PM -0500, Mark G Thomas wrote:
Huh?
I had almost no Problems to install 2.11BSD from a UC07 with tapes written
So my 11/53 just arrived, and my 11/73 is on
it's way, both in BA23 chassis.
Inventory of the 11/53 is:
KDJ11-D/S CPU
Dataram 4093 with 2MB RAM
RQDX3 controller
I've made good progress on the 11/53, and successfully installed
BSD2.11 a MFM drive, by booting from an Emulex UC07 and DLT-8000
SCSI tape drive to perform the install. Ideally I'd like to get
the OS on a SCSI hard drive, but I'm having trouble getting BSD2.11
to recognize the UC07 as a second MSCP disk controller, which would
be the easiest way at this point. from simh (and my own convert program for writing tapes
with the blocksizes
2.11BSD want to use) and that on a SCSI Drive connected to a 2nd
UC07.
That are not real single UC07s, that are two on a single PCB, don't know if
that is to be called UC08 at all, but it worked fine. :-)
Make sure the RQDX is the last board in the Card Cage.
I'm not having much luck with my 11/73, which turned out to
be an 11/83, for which I also now have a spare 11/83 and 11/73-B
CPU. In my 11/83 system, "MAP" shows the address the MSCP or TMSCP
address the UC07 is jumpered for, but nothing (blank line) under
"Device Type" for that address, no "DU" or "MU" description
like
from "MAP" on the 11/53. If I try to get into F.R.D. with @17772150/...,
it just spits out a question mark, as if nothing is at the address.
Maybe you have a problem with the DIP Switches on the Conteroller?
I have an 11/83 too (which was a 11/73 KDJ11-Bbefore, changed the DCJ11
and the xtal to 18Mhz Versions. No Problem with 2.11 BSD, it runs for
days w/o a single Problem.
Do I have to do something in SETUP mode an 11/73B or 11/83 CPU to
make it "see" MSCP controllers at specific addresses? Should it
be reporting a DU or MU Device Type in MAP, instead of blank lines?
No. so far as I know nothing. But..it's almost a year if not more,
since I fiddeled with that stuff.
Just get sure that you have the latest Firmware on the UC07, it can be
found on the net, I you can't find it, contact me, I'll search for it..
Right now my CPUs are set to the "Initialize the Setup table" defaults.
- Several different CPUs behave the same way.
- I assume there might be a correlation between the problem with F.R.D.
and the fact the device isn't showing up like on the 11/53 in MAP,
but I don't really know since I've never seen it work right on an 11/83.
It works on a 11/53 wich was some DEC Server CPU before and which I've
polluted with the full amount of memory (1,5MB it was 512K before)
and it worked with my KDJ11-B with 15Mhz and 18Mhz and with and without PMI
RAM.
- I've tried this in two different Q-BUS BA23 chassis. Same results.
- I'm having similar results with other kinds of MSCP controllers with
the 11/83 CPUs. I haven't gotten anywhere with them either.
Mark
--
Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com)
Try to update the UC07 ROM, and if this doesn't help, try another one...
Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
5:41 p.m.
Hi,
A problem was that having just a single UC07, I can't connect SCSI tape
and SCSI disk at the same time. I had no problems installing BSD from
SCSI tape to MFM disk. My MFM disk drive is non-DEC-geometry though, so
I'm using an Emulex QD01 MFM controller.
I was hoping that now I have BSD booting from the QD01, switching the UC07
to MSCP mode for disk instead of tape, I could then build a BSD SCSI disk.
But, BSD2.11 doesn't seem to see a second RA controller ("RA 1"), no matter
what I set the address on the UC07 to. I can boot BSD from MFM disk with the
UC07 in the system, but if the UC07 is set for MSCP disk mode, BSD isn't
seeing it. I'll dig into the kernel config to make sure I'm not overlooking
something obvious.
Thanks everyone for confirming that my MAP behavior is normal for MSCP devices,
and not some symptom of a problem. After a little more fiddling, I found
the UC07 behaves on the 11/73B and 11/83 if it's the only disk controller
in the system. I'm more having an issue trying to get two controllers
working at once, such that I can boot from my MFM disk or boot from SCSI
tape, and have another disk device to actually install to aside from the
QD01.
I have two other controllers, a CQD220A/E and a DILOG SCSI controller.
But, trying to get these to coexist with the UC07 isn't happening either.
With the CQD I can boot RSX11M from a SCSI disk that came with one of
the systems, but so long as the CQD is plugged into the system, booting
Heh. I'll have to try upgrading my 11/53 from 512 to 2MB that way. Did you
have to do anything else aside from adding the memory chips, and the
PROM and single resistor change associated with the PROM?
Mark
--
Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com)
On Sat, Nov
23, 2013 at 04:24:31PM -0500, Mark G Thomas wrote:
Huh?
I had almost no Problems to install 2.11BSD from a UC07 with tapes written
from simh (and my own convert program for writing tapes with the blocksizes
2.11BSD want to use) and that on a SCSI Drive connected to a 2nd UC07.
That are not real single UC07s, that are two on a single PCB, don't know if
that is to be called UC08 at all, but it worked fine. :-) So my 11/53 just arrived, and my 11/73 is on
it's way, both in BA23 chassis.
Inventory of the 11/53 is:
KDJ11-D/S CPU
Dataram 4093 with 2MB RAM
RQDX3 controller
I've made good progress on the 11/53, and successfully installed
BSD2.11 a MFM drive, by booting from an Emulex UC07 and DLT-8000
SCSI tape drive to perform the install. Ideally I'd like to get
the OS on a SCSI hard drive, but I'm having trouble getting BSD2.11
to recognize the UC07 as a second MSCP disk controller, which would
be the easiest way at this point. I'm not
having much luck with my 11/73, which turned out to
be an 11/83, for which I also now have a spare 11/83 and 11/73-B
CPU. In my 11/83 system, "MAP" shows the address the MSCP or TMSCP
address the UC07 is jumpered for, but nothing (blank line) under
"Device Type" for that address, no "DU" or "MU" description
like
from "MAP" on the 11/53. If I try to get into F.R.D. with @17772150/...,
it just spits out a question mark, as if nothing is at the address.
Maybe you have a problem with the DIP Switches on the Conteroller?
I have an 11/83 too (which was a 11/73 KDJ11-Bbefore, changed the DCJ11
and the xtal to 18Mhz Versions. No Problem with 2.11 BSD, it runs for
days w/o a single Problem. from UC07 connected DLT tape doesn't work
Likewise, if I plug in the DILOG controller with a 1GB SCSI disk attached,
the UC07 stops working. So maybe my real issue is getting two SCSI
controllers to work at the same time in the same box.
Although I can get the QD01 (MSCP) and UC07 (TMSCP mode) working at once
in the same machine, I'm not having any luck getting BSD to see the UC07
as a second MSCP disk controller, with the QD01 (DU0) primary one.
Right now my
CPUs are set to the "Initialize the Setup table" defaults.
- Several different CPUs behave the same way.
- I assume there might be a correlation between the problem with F.R.D.
and the fact the device isn't showing up like on the 11/53 in MAP,
but I don't really know since I've never seen it work right on an 11/83.
It works on a 11/53 wich was some DEC Server CPU before and which I've
polluted with the full amount of memory (1,5MB it was 512K before)
and it worked with my KDJ11-B with 15Mhz and 18Mhz and with and without PMI
RAM.
6:22 p.m.
Some of this you might know, but I learned it by trial and error. The MSCP
disk unit numbers are unique across all controllers and need to be set on
each controller. If the unit numbers on different controllers are the same,
it might not be possible to boot from the second controller. It appears
that the boot ROM will search each controller to find the first instance of
the specified drive.
2.11BSD limits a disk number to 3 bits and so only DU0 through DU7 can be
addressed by 2.11BSD. For 2.11BSD duplicate unit numbers on different
controllers are OK.
I have two controllers with DU0 - DU3 (SCSI) on the first controller and
DU4 and DU5 (RX50) on the second. This was the only way that I could have
the RX50 bootable and visible from 2.11BSD.
All this said, I don't know that it explains some of what you are seeing
because MSCP disks and tapes are in different unit number "spaces" and DU0
and MU0 wouldn't conflict.
-chuck
9 Dec
9 Dec
7:51 a.m.
On Dec 8, 2013, at 9:22 PM, Charles Dickman <chd at chdickman.com> wrote:
Some of this you might know, but I learned it by trial
and error. The MSCP
disk unit numbers are unique across all controllers and need to be set on
each controller. If the unit numbers on different controllers are the same,
it might not be possible to boot from the second controller. It appears
that the boot ROM will search each controller to find the first instance of
the specified drive.
That depends on the OS. What you say is true for RSTS, which refers to all MSCP disks as
"DU" and wants the unit number to be unique among all the controllers. VMS
refers to disks by type, controller, and unit, e.g., DUA2: so (I would assume) it can
handle duplicate unit numbers as DUA2: and DUB2:.
paul
9:48 a.m.
On Mon, Dec 09, 2013 at 10:51:38AM -0500, Paul Koning wrote:
On Dec 8, 2013, at 9:22 PM, Charles Dickman <chd at
chdickman.com> wrote:
> [...] The MSCP
> disk unit numbers are unique across all controllers and need to be set on
> each controller.
That depends on the OS. What you say is true for RSTS,
which refers to all
MSCP disks as "DU" and wants the unit number to be unique among all the
controllers. VMS refers to disks by type, controller, and unit, e.g., DUA2:
so (I would assume) it can handle duplicate unit numbers as DUA2: and DUB2:.
I'm 99% sure the "units are unique on a system" rule is from the MSCP spec,
so it certainly makes sense that RSTS follows it. It seems like kind of a
silly rule though since it's not true of anything but (T)MSCP, so any OS will
already have to have a plan for dealing with dupes (or officially refusing
to -- like the way RSTS rejects duplicate slave #s on Massbus tapes).
John Wilson
D Bit
12:47 p.m.
On Dec 9, 2013, at 12:48 PM, John Wilson <wilson at dbit.com> wrote:
On Mon, Dec 09, 2013 at 10:51:38AM -0500, Paul Koning
wrote:
I don't know if I've even seen the MSCP spec, but I wonder. It would make sense
for the MSCP spec to describe unit number rules for the address space it talks about,
which is one instance of the MSCP protocol machinery (one controller). The rules for
multiple controllers should be out of scope. And DEC, unlike some other standard
organizations, was pretty good about keeping standards clean.
RSTS requires unique unit numbers because it doesn't have controller letters in its
device names (well, not except as a later aliasing hack). But VMS does. So RSTS
can't represent "device foo, controller 1, unit 1" along with "device
foo, controller 2, unit 1" while VMS can.
paul
On Dec 8, 2013, at 9:22 PM, Charles Dickman
<chd at chdickman.com> wrote:
> [...] The MSCP
> disk unit numbers are unique across all controllers and need to be set on
> each controller.
That depends on the OS. What you say is true for
RSTS, which refers to all
MSCP disks as "DU" and wants the unit number to be unique among all the
controllers. VMS refers to disks by type, controller, and unit, e.g., DUA2:
so (I would assume) it can handle duplicate unit numbers as DUA2: and DUB2:.
I'm 99% sure the "units are unique on a system" rule is from the MSCP
spec,
so it certainly makes sense that RSTS follows it. It seems like kind of a
silly rule though since it's not true of anything but (T)MSCP, so any OS will
already have to have a plan for dealing with dupes (or officially refusing
to -- like the way RSTS rejects duplicate slave #s on Massbus tapes).
6:26 p.m.
John Wilson wrote:
On Mon, Dec 09,
2013 at 10:51:38AM -0500, Paul Koning wrote:
On Dec 8,
2013, at 9:22 PM, Charles Dickman <chd at chdickman.com> wrote:
[...] The MSCP
disk unit numbers are unique across all controllers and need to be set on
each controller.
That depends on the OS. What you say is true for RSTS, which refers to all
MSCP disks as "DU" and wants the unit number to be unique among all the
controllers. VMS refers to disks by type, controller, and unit, e.g., DUA2:
so (I would assume) it can handle duplicate unit numbers as DUA2: and DUB2:.
8:12 p.m.
John Wilson wrote:
On Mon, Dec 09,
2013 at 10:51:38AM -0500, Paul Koning wrote:
On Dec 8,
2013, at 9:22 PM, Charles Dickman <chd at chdickman.com> wrote:
[...] The MSCP
disk unit numbers are unique across all controllers and need to be set on
each controller.
That depends on the OS. What you say is true for RSTS, which refers to all
MSCP disks as "DU" and wants the unit number to be unique among all the
controllers. VMS refers to disks by type, controller, and unit, e.g., DUA2:
so (I would assume) it can handle duplicate unit numbers as DUA2: and DUB2:.
3:34 a.m.
Mark G Thomas wrote:
[..]
> and not some symptom of a problem. After a little more fiddling, I found
> the UC07 behaves on the 11/73B and 11/83 if it's the only disk controller
> in the system. I'm more having an issue trying to get two controllers
> working at once, such that I can boot from my MFM disk or boot from SCSI
> tape, and have another disk device to actually install to aside from the
> QD01.
> I have two other controllers, a CQD220A/E
and a DILOG SCSI controller.
> But, trying to get these to coexist with the UC07 isn't happening either.
> With the CQD I can boot RSX11M from a SCSI disk that came with one of
> the systems, but so long as the CQD is plugged into the system, booting
> from UC07 connected DLT tape doesn't work
> Likewise, if I plug in the DILOG
controller with a 1GB SCSI disk attached,
> the UC07 stops working. So maybe my real issue is getting two SCSI
> controllers to work at the same time in the same box.
> Although I can get the QD01 (MSCP) and
UC07 (TMSCP mode) working at once
> in the same machine, I'm not having any luck getting BSD to see the UC07
> as a second MSCP disk controller, with the QD01 (DU0) primary one.
> > > Right now my CPUs are set to the
"Initialize the Setup table" defaults.
> > > > > -
Several different CPUs behave the same way.
> > > > > - I
assume there might be a correlation between the problem with F.R.D.
> > > and the fact the device isn't showing up like on the 11/53 in MAP,
> > > but I don't really know since I've never seen it work right on
an 11/83.
> > > It works on a 11/53 wich was some DEC
Server CPU before and which I've
> > polluted with the full amount of memory (1,5MB it was 512K before)
> > and it worked with my KDJ11-B with 15Mhz and 18Mhz and with and without PMI
> > RAM.
> Heh. I'll have to try upgrading my
11/53 from 512 to 2MB that way. Did you
I think 1,5MB is the Maximum, no space there for 2MB...
Hi,
> > On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 04:24:31PM -0500, Mark G Thomas wrote:
> > > So my 11/53 just arrived, and my 11/73 is on it's way, both in BA23
chassis.
[..]
A problem was that having just a single UC07, I can't connect SCSI tape
and SCSI disk at the same time. I had no problems installing BSD from
SCSI tape to MFM disk. My MFM disk drive is non-DEC-geometry though, so
I'm using an Emulex QD01 MFM controller.
I was hoping that now I have BSD booting from the QD01, switching the UC07
to MSCP mode for disk instead of tape, I could then build a BSD SCSI disk.
But, BSD2.11 doesn't seem to see a second RA controller ("RA 1"), no
matter
what I set the address on the UC07 to. I can boot BSD from MFM disk with the
UC07 in the system, but if the UC07 is set for MSCP disk mode, BSD isn't
seeing it. I'll dig into the kernel config to make sure I'm not overlooking
something obvious.
Hmm, I think your problem is the kernel config, not supporting more than
one MSCP Controller at a time...
I'm booting my 11/83 currently to have a look at it.
I'm not sure if I tried it with BSD, but I think I had 3 Controllers,
the double Emulex and a Dilog MFM Controller on time in the system.
But the Dilog doesn't work as MSCP, it builds a pair RL Type disks
out of a 20MB MFM Drive. (Dilog DQ614)
Ok, ELEVEN is up, looked at the config Files and I saw, that I had bumped
up the NRAD Value to 4, in GENERIC it is 3.
Do you still have the RQDX3 in your System? Try to pull it, I'm not sure
how it behaves but all Devices on it will be handeled as RA devices, Disks
and Floppies.
So if you have connected some RX50 drives you already outlasted the Number
of possible three RA Drives (from GENERIC) with just the floppies and the
disk controller...
That looks for GENERIC as follows:
NRAC 2 # NRAD controllers
NRAD 3 # RX50, RC25, RD51/52/53, RA60/80/81
So far as I understand this, this enables 2 RA Controllers with 3 Devices
in sum.
have to do anything else aside from adding the memory
chips, and the
PROM and single resistor change associated with the PROM?
IMHO there are 2 Resistors to add besides of the Caps and the Memory Chips.
But besides of that it worked, no other things todo.
(One resistor for each memory Bank, 2 Banks added)
Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
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19 comments
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bigral＠hotmail.com -
chd＠chdickman.com -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
glen.slick＠gmail.com -
holm＠freibergnet.de -
jhfinedp3k＠compsys.to -
Mark＠Misty.com -
paulkoning＠comcast.net -
robert.jarratt＠ntlworld.com -
wilson＠dbit.com