20 Jan
2006
20 Jan
'06
3:47 p.m.
I've been reading the story about the business of Justice subpoenaing the
search records from Google for a week last summer. Google doesn't want to
turn them over, but should they lose their appeal, why not turn the data
over in the form of punched cards?
This qualifies as "electronically readable media", doesn't it? It'd
probably be several truckloads and leave those guys at DOJ wondering what
to do next...
Cheers,
Chuck
20 Jan
20 Jan
3:55 p.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
This qualifies as "electronically readable
media", doesn't it? It'd
probably be several truckloads and leave those guys at DOJ wondering what
to do next...
Probably come to us or Sellam to read them :-)
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/
3:57 p.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
I've been reading the story about the business of
Justice subpoenaing the
search records from Google for a week last summer. Google doesn't want to
turn them over, but should they lose their appeal, why not turn the data
over in the form of punched cards?
This qualifies as "electronically readable media", doesn't it? It'd
probably be several truckloads and leave those guys at DOJ wondering what
to do next...
Naah. Paper tape is where it's at.
Peace... Sridhar
4:48 p.m.
Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Chuck Guzis wrote:
Nope - 9-track 732bpi tape.
Gordon.
I've been reading the story about the
business of Justice subpoenaing the
search records from Google for a week last summer. Google doesn't
want to
turn them over, but should they lose their appeal, why not turn the data
over in the form of punched cards?
This qualifies as "electronically readable media", doesn't it? It'd
probably be several truckloads and leave those guys at DOJ wondering what
to do next...
Naah. Paper tape is where it's at.
Peace... Sridhar 
4:49 p.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
> I've been reading the story about the business of Justice subpoenaing the
> search records from Google for a week last summer. Google doesn't want to
> turn them over, but should they lose their appeal, why not turn the data
> over in the form of punched cards?
> This qualifies as "electronically readable media", doesn't it?
It'd
> probably be several truckloads and leave those guys at DOJ wondering what
> to do next...
On Fri, 20 Jan 2006, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Naah. Paper tape is where it's at.
A judge might consider that to not be making a good faith effort to
comply.
Therefore, in the interests of "cooperating", it should be on magnetic
disk. But not necessarily specifying the disk size, nor format.
3.25" GCR ?
5 p.m.
On 1/20/2006 at 1:49 PM Fred Cisin wrote:
3.25" GCR ?
How about one of those old OSI async formats? Or 2" SuperSport disks? Or
90KB O1 SSSD 5.25"? The old Durango 5.25' 100 tpi GCRs would make for some
nice headscratching...
Remember that this is a fishing expedition, so that Google can't be charged
with "hindering prosecution". AFAIK, there's no warrant involved.
Cheers,
Chuck
5:09 p.m.
>3.25" GCR ?
On Fri, 20 Jan 2006, Chuck
Guzis wrote:
How about one of those old OSI async formats?
Excellent
Or 2" SuperSport disks? Or
good
90KB O1 SSSD 5.25"?
WAY too easy.
The old Durango 5.25' 100 tpi GCRs would make for
some
nice headscratching...
. . . , Sirius/Victor 9000?
Tandy M100 PDD#1?
Micropolis OS for TRS-80 M1 on 100 TPI, but changed to GCR?
Tarbell?
Kansas City Standard?
TRS80 M1 cassette? (close to a Write Only Medium)
If they insist on "an IBM PC format", . . .
5150 cassette!
Remember that this is a fishing expedition, so that
Google can't be charged
with "hindering prosecution". AFAIK, there's no warrant involved.
If
Google refuses to "cooperate", how much can DOJ do?
9:18 p.m.
Fred Cisin wrote:
I vote for a good, hearty "HELL NO!"
At this point it's a request, not an order, and I hear that Google's
not inclined to meet it.
Doc
Chuck Guzis
wrote:
>I've been reading the story about the business of Justice subpoenaing the
>search records from Google for a week last summer. Google doesn't want to
>turn them over, but should they lose their appeal, why not turn the data
>over in the form of punched cards?
>This qualifies as "electronically readable media", doesn't it?
It'd
>probably be several truckloads and leave those guys at DOJ wondering what
>to do next...
On Fri, 20 Jan 2006, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Naah. Paper tape is where it's at.
A judge might consider that to not be making a good faith effort to
comply.
Therefore, in the interests of "cooperating", it should be on magnetic
disk. But not necessarily specifying the disk size, nor format.
3.25" GCR ? 
4:49 p.m.
New subject: A little OT: Google
In article <43D14EC7.5040300 at gmail.com>,
Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> writes:
Chuck Guzis wrote:
Even plain paper is technically electronicablly readable with OCR
software :-).
Imagine getting reams and reams of paper with gigantic grids of hex
digits like a massic dump listing :-)
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty
<http://pilgrimage.scene.org>
I've been reading the story about the
business of Justice subpoenaing the
search records from Google for a week last summer. Google doesn't want to
turn them over, but should they lose their appeal, why not turn the data
over in the form of punched cards?
This qualifies as "electronically readable media", doesn't it? It'd
probably be several truckloads and leave those guys at DOJ wondering what
to do next...
Naah. Paper tape is where it's at.
4:55 p.m.
New subject: A little OT: Google
Chuck Guzis
wrote:
I've been reading the story about the
business of Justice subpoenaing the
search records from Google for a week last summer. Google doesn't want to
turn them over, but should they lose their appeal, why not turn the data
over in the form of punched cards?
This qualifies as "electronically readable media", doesn't it? It'd
probably be several truckloads and leave those guys at DOJ wondering what
to do next...
Naah. Paper tape is where it's at. Even plain paper is technically electronicablly
readable with OCR
software :-).
Imagine getting reams and reams of paper with gigantic grids of hex
digits like a massic dump listing :-)
Cauzin Softstrip!
7:14 p.m.
New subject: A little OT: Google
Fred Cisin wrote:
>>Chuck Guzis wrote:
>>
>>>I've been reading the story about the business of Justice subpoenaing the
>>>search records from Google for a week last summer. Google doesn't want
to
>>>turn them over, but should they lose their appeal, why not turn the data
>>>over in the form of punched cards?
>>>
>>>This qualifies as "electronically readable media", doesn't it?
It'd
>>>probably be several truckloads and leave those guys at DOJ wondering what
>>>to do next...
Car number plates. They just need to run them past ANPR cameras.
Or - miles and miles of the steel strip, with the data laser-etched onto
it. That would be machine-readable. Of course it's up to them to build
the machine...
Gordon.
5:27 p.m.
Rumor has it that Sridhar Ayengar may have mentioned these words:
Chuck Guzis wrote:
>... why not turn the data over in the form of punched cards?
Naah. Paper tape is where it's at.
Why not some of each? Paper tape, punched cards, Barcode (I'm thinking
TandyCode for the Tandy Model 10x/200), 16-hard-sector 5.25", RX-01, some
Apple media, Commie, 3" Amdek, 2" Zenith MiniSport, etc... ;-)
So what if it's a slightly smaller shipment... keep 'em jumpin'! ;-)
Laterz,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
P.S. Oh, and ROT13 1/2 of each type of media, just for giggles...
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me
zmerch at 30below.com. |
SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers
1:15 p.m.
Tore S Bekkedal wrote:
On Fri, 2006-01-20 at 14:29 -0800, Fred Cisin wrote:
Wouldn't they then be guilty of DMCA violations?
--
Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org
Embedded Linux Technologist
BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun!
On Fri, 20 Jan 2006, Roger Merchberger wrote:
They'd need to subpoena the key. :) P.S. Oh, and ROT13 1/2 of each type of media, just
for giggles...
Would the NSA be able to decode ROT13?
20 Jan
20 Jan
5:46 p.m.
Roger Merchberger wrote:
Rumor has it that Sridhar Ayengar may have mentioned
these words:
How about something where you can still get media, but can no longer
find drives for?
Peace... Sridhar
Chuck Guzis wrote:
> ... why not turn the data over in the form of punched cards?
Naah. Paper tape is where it's at.
Why not some of each? Paper tape, punched cards, Barcode (I'm thinking
TandyCode for the Tandy Model 10x/200), 16-hard-sector 5.25", RX-01,
some Apple media, Commie, 3" Amdek, 2" Zenith MiniSport, etc... ;-)
So what if it's a slightly smaller shipment... keep 'em jumpin'! ;-)
Laterz,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
P.S. Oh, and ROT13 1/2 of each type of media, just for giggles...
6:16 p.m.
On Fri, 20 Jan 2006, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
How about something where you can still get media, but
can no longer
find drives for?
5150 cassette (DRIVE is available, interface isn't)
Are 5.25" diskettes still available enough? If so,
100tpi?,
OSI?
Apple ][? (Pascal?)
Are "720K" diskettes still available enough? If so,
Tandy PDD1?
7:58 p.m.
On Fri, 20 Jan 2006, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Thinking of a machine that's been on my bench recently : Epson PX8
microcassette. The tapes are easy to get for dixtating machines still.
How about something where you can still get
media, but can no longer
find drives for?
5150 cassette (DRIVE is available, interface isn't)
Are 5.25" diskettes still available enough? If so,
100tpi?,
OSI?
Apple ][? (Pascal?)
Sirius (multiple-speed, GCR)_
What about Apple Lisa 'Twiggy' disks (uyes, OK, the media is no longer made).
Are "720K" diskettes still available enough? If so,
Tandy PDD1?
Something at 67.5 tpi?
How about an FM recording (i.e. single density), at HD pulse rates on a
1.44M disk. Should be techncially possible, but good luck finding a
machine that has it as a supported format.
-tony
10:44 p.m.
Fred Cisin wrote:
5150 cassette (DRIVE is available, interface
isn't)
Nah, comes on ebay once a week.
I second the motion of Cauzin Softstrip!
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/
21 Jan
21 Jan
12:06 a.m.
On Friday 20 January 2006 22:47, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Jim Leonard wrote:
It depends on how many 5150s and tape decks you have... ("RAIT").
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
Fred Cisin wrote:
As if it would matter. How long would it take to transfer several
hundred gigabytes of data off of 5150 cassettes? 8-) 5150 cassette (DRIVE is available, interface
isn't)
Nah, comes on ebay once a week.
2:49 p.m.
On Sat, 21 Jan 2006, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
It depends on how many 5150s and tape decks you
have... ("RAIT").
With people on eBay for some reason thinking that they are valuable,
it's more of a "RAT" than a "RAIT".
Some of the sentiments expressed have almost certainly moved the list up
several steps in the NSA monitoring priority.
3:24 p.m.
Fred Cisin wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jan 2006, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
Umm, Fred?
Do you think the fact that Michael hasn't posted recently has lowered
our rating at all? 8-)
In all seriousness, given the various skillsets, histories, and
computing capacity of ClassicCmp's members, I really doubt that this
list ever goes off their radar.
Doc
It depends on how many 5150s and tape decks you
have... ("RAIT").
With people on eBay for some reason thinking that they are valuable,
it's more of a "RAT" than a "RAIT".
Some of the sentiments expressed have almost certainly moved the list up
several steps in the NSA monitoring priority.
6:56 p.m.
Doc Shipley wrote:
Fred Cisin wrote:
There are probably a few members of this list that would be on their
radar without the list's help.
Peace... Sridhar
On Sat, 21 Jan 2006, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
Umm, Fred?
Do you think the fact that Michael hasn't posted recently has lowered
our rating at all? 8-)
In all seriousness, given the various skillsets, histories, and
computing capacity of ClassicCmp's members, I really doubt that this
list ever goes off their radar. It depends on how many 5150s and tape decks you
have... ("RAIT").
With people on eBay for some reason thinking that they are valuable,
it's more of a "RAT" than a "RAIT".
Some of the sentiments expressed have almost certainly moved the list up
several steps in the NSA monitoring priority. 
23 Jan
23 Jan
4:38 a.m.
New subject: NSA/CIA/Homeland Security/FBI watchlist was Re: A little OT: Google
At 06:56 PM 1/21/06 -0500, Shidhar wrote:
We should take head count of everyone on this list that expects that
they're on the NSA/CIA/Homeland Security/FBI watchlist. I'm certain I am!
(and dammed proud of it!)
Joe
Doc Shipley wrote:
In all seriousness, given the various skillsets, histories, and
computing capacity of ClassicCmp's members, I really doubt that this
list ever goes off their radar.
There are probably a few members of this list that would be on their
radar without the list's help.
10:02 a.m.
New subject: NSA/CIA/Homeland Security/FBI watchlist was Re: A little OT: Google
We should take head count of everyone on this list
that expects that
they're on the NSA/CIA/Homeland Security/FBI watchlist. I'm certain I am!
(and dammed proud of it!)
I just wave to the black helicopters every morning. Hi, guys.
--
--------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ ---
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- God made the integers; all else is the work of Man. -- Kronecker -----------
10:31 a.m.
New subject: NSA/CIA/Homeland Security/FBI watchlist was Re: A little OT: Google
"Joe R." wrote:
We should take head count of everyone on this list that expects that
they're on the NSA/CIA/Homeland Security/FBI watchlist. I'm certain I am!
(and dammed proud of it!)
I work by myself in a small office jammed with lots of wires and
machines. I get fed-ex, ups and dhl packages from all over the world on
a daily basis. I get a lot from the pac-rim.
and I hear clicks on my phone all the time.
should I be paranoid? :-)
-brad
I looked for the checkbox on my tax form which says "please don't spend my
money on domestic surveillance" but I couldn't find it. Plus, I thought we
fixed that problem after the last set of abuses.
1:59 p.m.
New subject: NSA/CIA/Homeland Security/FBI watchlist was Re: A little OT: Google
On Monday 23 January 2006 10:31 am, Brad Parker wrote:
and I hear clicks on my phone all the time.
should I be paranoid? :-)
Nah, it's just them guys changing the tapes...
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
11:45 a.m.
New subject: NSA/CIA/Homeland Security/FBI watchlist was Re: A little OT: Google
wayyy off topic
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe R." <rigdonj at cfl.rr.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:38 AM
Subject: NSA/CIA/Homeland Security/FBI watchlist was Re: A little OT: Google
At 06:56 PM 1/21/06 -0500, Shidhar wrote:
We should take head count of everyone on this list that expects that
they're on the NSA/CIA/Homeland Security/FBI watchlist. I'm certain I am!
(and dammed proud of it!)
Joe
Doc Shipley wrote:
In all seriousness, given the various skillsets, histories, and
computing capacity of ClassicCmp's members, I really doubt that this
list ever goes off their radar.
There are probably a few members of this list that would be on their
radar without the list's help.
5:34 p.m.
New subject: NSA/CIA/Homeland Security/FBI watchlist was Re: A little OT: Google
"Joe R." <rigdonj at cfl.rr.com> wrote:
We should take head count of everyone on this list
that expects that
they're on the NSA/CIA/Homeland Security/FBI watchlist. I'm certain I am!
(and dammed proud of it!)
Well, where I work we have a direct hotline to DHS and another to FEMA.
The FEMA one has a red light on it that's always blinking - the joke is
that "to them, everything's an emergency!".
In any event, my proxmity to Ft Meade and other government stuff brings
me an interesting flow of HF, VHF, and UHF radio stuff that presumably
was involved with the NSA at some point in its life.
Tim.
20 Jan
20 Jan
11:08 p.m.
New subject: ebay strategies (was: A little OT: Google)
In article <43D1AE1E.8000902 at oldskool.org>,
Jim Leonard <trixter at oldskool.org> writes:
Fred Cisin wrote:
Speaking of ebay, what strategies do you use to mine the constant
churn of new items for things you want?
I have a variety of searches that I've refined to email me when new
items arrive, looking for specific manufacturers or products.
I also have a general category search limited by distance to show me
crufty old computer parts that are within driving distance :-).
Any other tricks that y'all use to find stuff? Serendipitous browsing?
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty
<http://pilgrimage.scene.org>
5150 cassette (DRIVE is available, interface
isn't)
Nah, comes on ebay once a week. 
21 Jan
21 Jan
2:42 p.m.
Fred Cisin wrote:
Hang on, the format of the 5150 cassette recording is given in the
TechRef. Now I've not tried this, and I've not got the hardware to do it,
but surely you could play the tape on a normal audio recorder into a
modern PC soundcard and analyse the signals in software. A modern PC
should be easily fast enough
5150 cassette (DRIVE is available, interface
isn't)
Nah, comes on ebay once a week.
I second the motion of Cauzin Softstrip!
Would a normal flatbed scanner have enough resolution to scan a page of
softstrips and then decode the image in software again?
-tony
10:08 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
Would a normal flatbed scanner have enough resolution
to scan a page of
softstrips and then decode the image in software again?
Yes. Did this for an essay a while back; from my rotting memory, the
SoftStrip Laser StripMaker manual said that for a 300 DPI desktop laser
printer, the densities are approximately as follows:
- Low density: 590 bytes per 100mm
- Medium density: 1040 bytes per 100mm
- High density: 1630 bytes per 100mm
Maximum strip length for vertical strips is 240mm and for horizontal
strips 175mm.
I don't believe that strips were produced higher than 300 DPI ;-) so a
$50 1200 DPI scanner could exceed nyquist and get them in B&W monochrome
mode.
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/
22 Jan
22 Jan
4:52 a.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
A lot of emulators for 8-bit machines do this. I can't see it being
difficult to work out for the 5150.
What *is* a cool hack is software that will turn sysex dumps for old
synths that support patch storage on tape *and* sysex into tape tones,
and vice-versa. Alesis Freeloader springs to mind.
Gordon.
Fred Cisin
wrote:
Hang on, the format of the 5150 cassette recording is given in the
TechRef. Now I've not tried this, and I've not got the hardware to do it,
but surely you could play the tape on a normal audio recorder into a
modern PC soundcard and analyse the signals in software. A modern PC
should be easily fast enough 5150 cassette (DRIVE is available, interface
isn't)
Nah, comes on ebay once a week. 
20 Jan
20 Jan
4:41 p.m.
I've been reading the story about the business of
Justice subpoenaing the
search records from Google for a week last summer. Google doesn't want to
turn them over, but should they lose their appeal, why not turn the data
over in the form of punched cards?
This qualifies as "electronically readable media", doesn't it? It'd
probably be several truckloads and leave those guys at DOJ wondering what
to do next...
Reminds me of the smell in a certain building in Washington DC...
Zane
21 Jan
21 Jan
11:19 a.m.
On Friday 20 January 2006 04:41 pm, Zane H. Healy wrote:
At the zoo?
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
I've been
reading the story about the business of Justice subpoenaing the
search records from Google for a week last summer. Google doesn't want
to turn them over, but should they lose their appeal, why not turn the
data over in the form of punched cards?
This qualifies as "electronically readable media", doesn't it? It'd
probably be several truckloads and leave those guys at DOJ wondering what
to do next...
Reminds me of the smell in a certain building in Washington DC...
Zane
20 Jan
20 Jan
4:54 p.m.
On Fri, 20 Jan 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I've been reading the story about the business of
Justice subpoenaing the
search records from Google for a week last summer. Google doesn't want to
turn them over, but should they lose their appeal, why not turn the data
over in the form of punched cards?
Not just Google.
From an FBI email obtained through FOIA: "The
inability of FBI
investigators to use this seemingly effective tool has had a direct
and
clearly adverse impact on our terrorism cases. While radical militant
librarians kick us around, true terrorists benefit from OIPR's failure to
let us use the tools given to us."
ALA's (American Library Association)'s Office of Intellectual Freedom
is selling "Radical Militant Librarian" buttons for $2.00 with
proceeds supporting the OIF's work.
http://www.ala.org/ala/oif/basics/basicrelatedlinks/radicalbutton.htm
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-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
aw288＠osfn.org -
brad＠heeltoe.com -
cclist＠sydex.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
doc＠mdrconsult.com -
gordonjcp＠gjcp.net -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
jwest＠classiccmp.org -
legalize＠xmission.com -
pat＠computer-refuge.org -
ploopster＠gmail.com -
rigdonj＠cfl.rr.com -
rtellason＠blazenet.net -
shoppa_classiccmp＠trailing-edge.com -
spectre＠floodgap.com -
Tim＠Rikers.org -
toresbe＠ifi.uio.no -
trixter＠oldskool.org -
zmerch＠30below.com