30 Sep
2011
30 Sep
'11
5:11 p.m.
We're hiring. The brief job description:
Vulcan Inc. - Seattle, WA
Living Computer Museum
Vulcan's Vintage Systems Team is responsible for the restoration,
operation and maintenance of the Living Computer Museum's collection of
vintage computer systems. This collection includes mainframe and
minicomputer systems manufactured by companies such as Digital Equipment
Corporation, Data General, IBM, and Hewlett-Packard during the emergence
of interactive and timeshared computing. The goal of the Living
Computer Museum is to restore these systems to run historically
appropriate software, presenting them as living artifacts to the
academic and research communities and to the public. The systems and
their associated software and documentation are curated to preserve
their historical provenance. For more information on the Living
Computer Museum, please visit
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
________________________________________________________________________
Sr. Server Engineer
The Sr. Server Engineer is responsible for the restoration of vintage
systems as well as day-to-day operation and maintenance of the Living
Computer Museum collection. Responsibilities include hardware and
software installation, configuration, maintenance, troubleshooting,
procurement of parts, and certification/performance testing of the
various computer systems including associated peripherals. Additional
duties include research and writing regarding individual systems and
their restoration and preservation. When required and on occasion,
responsibilities include assisting on special projects.
The ideal candidate will have a Bachelor's degree and at least 6 years
related experience and/or training. Operations and administration
experience required with mainframe and minicomputer systems, with
emphasis on timesharing systems, or senior-level field service
experience with same. Must have strong analytical and planning skills
with the ability to communicate and conceptualize projects to integrate
the technology with the needs and functions of the Living Computer
Museum.
For a full job description and to apply, please visit our careers site:
http://jobs.vulcan.com/
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
30 Sep
30 Sep
5:23 p.m.
On 1 October 2011 01:11, Rich Alderson <RichA at vulcan.com> wrote:
We're hiring. ?The brief job description:
Vulcan Inc. ?- Seattle, WA
Living Computer Museum
One question: this is all old stuff, experience is 100% a necessity.
Why a batchelors? What does earning a degree gain you in the field of
vintage computing, particularly this field that you needed to have
been there to have seen it in the first place?
Reason I'm asking is this. I have an awful lot of friends with
(modern) computing related degrees who can't get jobs because, wait
for it, they don't have experience. Duh.
Granted this is the UK, US might be different, but why the need for a
piece of paper?
Just askin'
--
adrian/witchy
Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection?
www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk
5:52 p.m.
On Fri, 30 Sep 2011, William Donzelli wrote:
Yeah, because being employed in the industry for 20+ years certainly won't
show that. *roll eyes*
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
Granted this
is the UK, US might be different, but why the need for a
piece of paper?
A piece of paper shows that the holder has at least some stamina and
backbone to actually finish something, in some official way.
6:12 p.m.
New subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum, Vulcan Inc., Seattle
From: Gene Buckle
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 5:53 PM
On Fri, 30 Sep 2011, William Donzelli wrote:
> A piece of paper shows that the holder has at
least some stamina and
> backbone to actually finish something, in some official way.
Yeah, because being employed in the industry for 20+
years certainly
won't show that. *roll eyes*
As I've explained elsewhere, the actual requirement is
Bachelor's degree and at least six years related experience and/or
training; or ten years equivalent experience
20+ years in the industry would certainly meet the specified qualification.
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
6:25 p.m.
On Fri, 30 Sep 2011, Rich Alderson wrote:
From: Gene Buckle
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 5:53 PM
On Fri, 30 Sep 2011, William Donzelli wrote:
I was being my usual snarky self. Please ignore. :)
One of these days I've got to wander up there.
You guys have anything to trade for a prototype Indy that needs a little
TLC? *grin*
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
> A piece of paper shows that the holder has at
least some stamina and
> backbone to actually finish something, in some official way.
Yeah, because being employed in the industry for
20+ years certainly
won't show that. *roll eyes*
As I've explained elsewhere, the actual requirement is
6:34 p.m.
I am sure it isn't the case for this job but, in many bigger companies
the HR department often isn't really flexible on the degree part even if
the opening opening says they are. Unless you know someone to sort of
sidestep the HR people a four year college degree has pretty much become
the high school diploma of thirty years ago. It's not that the
engineers and it IT people wouldn't consider you if they ever got your
resume they just never get it.
As I've explained elsewhere, the actual
requirement is
Bachelor's degree and at least six years related experience and/or
training; or ten years equivalent experience
20+ years in the industry would certainly meet the specified qualification.
A piece of paper shows that the holder has at least
some stamina and
backbone to actually finish something, in some official way.
Yeah, because being
employed in the industry for 20+ years certainly
won't show that. *roll eyes* 
1 Oct
1 Oct
10:47 a.m.
New subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum,
Granted this is the UK, US might be different,
but why the need for a
piece of paper?
A piece of paper shows that the holder has at least some stamina and
backbone to actually finish something, in some official way. 
2:58 p.m.
New subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum,
On 01/10/11 1:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
Err, no. That's a Ph.D. surely.
Ted Nelson, in his classic Computer Lib/Dream Machines (1974):
'Swarthmore left me with an exaggerated notion of the extent to which
ideas are valued in the academic world; it took two graduate schools to
clear this up. After that, as far as I was concerned, Ph.D. stood for
Poophead.'
--Toby
Granted this is the UK, US might be different,
but why the need for a
piece of paper?
A piece of paper shows that the holder has at least some stamina and
backbone to actually finish something, in some official way.
More seriously, a first degree often shows you could be bothered to turn
up to the lectures and rememebr what you were told. A higher degree
should indicate that you have the ability to solve problems on your own,
which IMHO is a much more valuable skill (certainly for a job like this).
Note that a higher degree is not the _only_ way to show you have such
skills. I put no value at all on bits of paper...
-tony
3:36 p.m.
New subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum,
Ted Nelson, in his classic Computer Lib/Dream Machines
(1974):
'Swarthmore left me with an exaggerated notion of the extent to which
ideas are valued in the academic world; it took two graduate schools to
clear this up. After that, as far as I was concerned, Ph.D. stood for
Poophead.'
Ted is not always thoroughly in touch with academia.
BS is BullShit
MS is More of the Same
PhD is Piled Higher and Deeper
Several of my degrees have had unexpected very powerful impact on
employment in ways that I had never intended when I was in college.
3:42 p.m.
New subject: It works :oD
http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com/2011/10/hp16500c-hp16505a-e-oitocentesimo…
---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
2 Oct
2 Oct
10:36 a.m.
New subject: It works :oD
ok. Don't know what it is, no speak espanole, and w/o looking it up, I'm guessing
an ux box with HP-IB ports to control what's below it. The box w/the color screen
resembles the early HP scopes I used as an EMI tech 800 years ago. Looks like it might be
an analyzer though.
Ok, I went the extra mile and reverse searched the page. Question is why is google so
terrible at translation??? I'd far rather have a search engine reliably translate a
page then do those abhorrent instant searches while I'm still typing!
--- On Sat, 10/1/11, Alexandre Souza - Listas <pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote:
From: Alexandre Souza - Listas <pu1bzz.listas at
gmail.com>
Subject: It works :oD
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
Date: Saturday, October 1, 2011, 6:42 PM
???http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com/2011/10/hp16500c-hp16505a-e-oitocentesimo-post.html
---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
6:57 p.m.
New subject: It works :oD
On Oct 2, 2011 4:54 PM, "Chris M" <chrism3667 at yahoo.com> wrote:
It's an
HP 712/80 workstation converted into an HP 16505A "Prototype Analyzer" by
swapping in the 16505A disk image. It controls the HP 16500C Logic Analyzer
via the SCSI port. The 16505A runs HP-UX 9.05 with a special application to
control the 16500C.
ok. Don't know what it is, no speak espanole, and w/o looking it up, I'm
guessing an ux box with HP-IB ports to control what's below it. The box
w/the color screen resembles the early HP scopes I used as an EMI tech 800
years ago. Looks like it might be an analyzer though.
7:16 p.m.
New subject: It works :oD
ok. Don't know what it is, no speak espanole, and
w/o looking it up, I'm
guessing an ux box with HP-IB ports to control what's below it. The box
w/the color screen resembles the early HP scopes I used as an EMI tech 800
years ago. Looks like it might be an analyzer though.
Ok, I went the extra mile and reverse searched the page. Question is why
is google so terrible at translation??? I'd far rather have a search
engine reliably translate a page then do those abhorrent instant searches
while I'm still typing!
Lets try again
- Brazilians speak PORTUGUESE and NOT SPANISH
- Brazilians speak PORTUGUESE and NOT SPANISH
- Brazilians speak PORTUGUESE and NOT SPANISH
- Brazilians speak PORTUGUESE and NOT SPANISH
- Brazilians speak PORTUGUESE and NOT SPANISH
- Brazilians speak PORTUGUESE and NOT SPANISH
- Brazilians speak PORTUGUESE and NOT SPANISH
How many times will I have to speak? ;oD
8:12 p.m.
New subject: It works :oD
-
Brazilians speak PORTUGUESE and NOT SPANISH
And Argentinians speak German...
8:28 p.m.
New subject: It works :oD
On 02/10/11 11:12 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
Only the white ones who goosestep. #odessa
Goose-stepping was the rule, there, for a while. As it was in Brazil
amid unfortunate circumstances that are important history but off topic :)
--Toby
- Brazilians speak PORTUGUESE and NOT SPANISH
And Argentinians speak German... 
7:52 p.m.
New subject: It works :oD
On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 9:16 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas
<pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote:
? Lets try again
? - Brazilians speak PORTUGUESE and NOT SPANISH
...
? How many times will I have to speak? ;oD
And they've learned not to top-post there, too. Cr?dito!
1 Oct
1 Oct
4:02 p.m.
New subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum,
On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 5:36 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
Several of my degrees have had unexpected very
powerful impact on
employment in ways that I had never intended when I was in college.
I have only a BS in Computer Science. I've discovered that my degree
opened a few doors that would have otherwise been closed by completely
clueless people. I've met programmers with weird degrees (physics,
statistics, chemistry) who were the best I'd ever met. And I've met
programmers with advanced degrees in computer science who couldn't
find their ass.
I began programming professionally when I was 19, a full six years
before I graduated with my degree. (I did work, school, and kids all
at once) And nothing was more irritating to me in an interview as
when i was asked how many years of professional programming experience
I had, then after responding, I was asked, "yeah, but how many years
after you graduated." Excuse me, where's the door?
Now maybe you learned something from your degree program and maybe you
didn't. But in short, a BS degree in computer science allows an HR
drone to check off a box before sending your resume on to the hiring
manager. It's there for clueless HR people and hiring managers who
don't know the first thing about software development to allow some
other mechanism to help them filter out people who can't program
because they're too inept to make the decision using their own
knowledge and skills.
<rant off>
4:58 p.m.
New subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum,
Would today's Microsoft hire a Bill Gates (college dropout)?
Would they hire a 30 year old Bill Gates with an PhD in computer
science? Would he be nearly as productive?
I was chatting with a young friend this past week. The subject
(nothing more fun than talking about other people) of the
conversation was a young musician, who, at 19 was offered a permanent
position with a major (and well-funded) US symphony orhestra. He'd
been subbing with them as a summer job, as he was on vacation from
school (he had a full scholarship to a major conservatory).
He turned the job down, saying that he needed to finish school first
(he had two more years to go). Big mistake--he flubbed every
audition after school, went back to school to get a couple of
advanced degrees, is in his late 20s and without any prospects. On
auditions, he's doing well if he makes it into the second tier of
candidates.
He'll probably end up joining the Army. You see, it's still the case
in the music world that performace is everything. The people sitting
on the other side of the audition screen don't care if you just came
from Juilliard or your uncle's chicken farm.
My point is is this--that there is a period of maximum porductivity
for most humans and it falls sometime near the end of adolescence,
say, between 17 and 20 years of age. After that, one is never the
same person. Maybe it's the uninformed arrogance of youth. I'd like
to think that the mind is most pliable in those years.
It's a crying shame to waste that on formal education, sitting in
some undergrad lecture hall. Some teachers understand that and give
the more promising students special projects where they can give free
rein to their ideas. Most don't. An awful lot of universities turn
out to be glorified trade schools.
It's important not to let formal education get in the way of real
learning. If I ruled the world, I'd opt for perhaps 2 years of
formal education, then 5 years of internship where one can exercise
one's creativity, then some more formal education to improve the
depth of one's knowledge.
While I was a terrible student, the things that I learned during the
same time outside of formal study have proved to be the source of
great joy later in life. And I regret not a moment of it.
Stay curious,
Chuck
2 Oct
2 Oct
11:40 a.m.
New subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum,
It's a crying shame to waste that on formal
education, sitting in
some undergrad lecture hall. Some teachers understand that and give
the more promising students special projects where they can give free
rein to their ideas. Most don't. An awful lot of universities turn
out to be glorified trade schools.
I would argue that at least ina UK a Ph.D is supposed to give somewhat
free rein to the student's ideas.
Certainly in my case, it started with my supervisor hadning me something
wrapped in tinfoil and saying 'OK, play with those'. Unwrapping it
revealsed 3 T414 Transputers. I got the approrpiate data book and started
designing.
Of course there are members of staff around to offer guidance, comments,
etc if you need it. But most of the time you are left to think for yoursel
While I was a terrible student, the things that I
learned during the
same time outside of formal study have proved to be the source of
great joy later in life. And I regret not a moment of it.
I agree with you there. My evenings as an undergraduate were mostly spent
starting my classic computing hobby (with a few friends, some of whom
have continued with it as I have). I learnt a heck of a lot....
Stay curious,
Indeed.....
-tony
1 Oct
1 Oct
5:57 p.m.
New subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum,
On 02/10/2011 00:02, "Brian Lanning" <brianlanning at gmail.com> wrote:
manager. It's there for clueless HR people and
hiring managers who
don't know the first thing about software development to allow some
other mechanism to help them filter out people who can't program
because they're too inept to make the decision using their own
knowledge and skills.
This was kind of my point. Nice to know it's almost worse over there than it
is here!
--
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?
2 Oct
2 Oct
3:18 a.m.
New subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum,
Brian Lanning [brianlanning at gmail.com] wrote:
the best I'd ever met. And I've met
programmers with
advanced degrees in computer science who couldn't find their ass.
I'm not sure where you get the notion that a real computer science
degree
has anything much to do with programming.
Dijsktra believed that "computer science" should have been called
"computing science" (and - iirc - also said that you wouldn't
expect studying astronomy to teach you how to build a telescope).
That said, having seen the occasional syllabus for a few "computer
science" degrees, perhaps they are correctly named after all :-)
Now maybe you learned something from your degree
program and
maybe you didn't. But in short, a BS degree in computer
science allows an HR drone to check off a box before sending
I think that where I work CVs do come straight to the engineers, so
there's no HR filter. There's still an agency filter (except, I suppose,
for those who know someone here or those who have enough nous to
fire up a web browser and work out how to go direct ;-))
I know that at a previous place of employment we'd get maybe 50 CVs
for a job. Evaluating 50 CVs in any meaningful sense takes a *long*
time. It's much quicker to discard quickly based on some arbitrary
standard factor (e.g. degree) and then scan the remaining 10 CVs more
closely. Eventually you'll interview 5 and pick the one you get along
with
(and who looks like they probably actually did some of the things they
claim
to have done on their CV).
As usual "the best is the enemy of the good enough". Doesn't matter if
you
reject the perfect job candidate as long as you get a reasonable one.
Antonio
11:54 a.m.
New subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum,
Dijsktra believed that "computer science"
should have been called
"computing science" (and - iirc - also said that you wouldn't
expect studying astronomy to teach you how to build a telescope).
Actually, I feel you should understand the tools and instruments you use,
if only so you can correctly interpret what they are telling you. So yes,
I would hope an astronomer knew how telescopes worked (but I'll readily
believe that many do not).
As usual "the best is the enemy of the good
enough". Doesn't matter if
you
reject the perfect job candidate as long as you get a reasonable one.
It may not matter to you, but it matters a lot ot the 'perfect candidate'
who is never interviewed for jobs he knows he could do well simply
becasue he doesn't haev the right bit of paper.
If you're going to use an arbitrary criterion for filtering out
candidates, why makie it 'must have a degree'. Why not 'must have a
parrot'? It would make as much sense in most cases.
-tony
1:56 p.m.
New subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum,
On Sun, 2 Oct 2011 arcarlini at iee.org wrote:
Dijsktra believed that "computer science"
should have been called
"computing science" (and - iirc - also said that you wouldn't
expect studying astronomy to teach you how to build a telescope).
Yet, an astronomer would have to be an idiot not to learn the principles
behind his tools. Wouldn't building your own [admittedly crude] one be a
good way to learn? And then give that [professionally inadequate] one to
a schoolkid.
That said, having seen the occasional syllabus for a
few "computer
science" degrees, perhaps they are correctly named after all :-)
Is "computer science" an engineering discipline for designing computers?
Or is it an information science discipline for developing algorithms for
prociessing information?
> Now maybe you learned something from your degree
program and
> maybe you didn't. But in short, a BS degree in computer
> science allows an HR drone to check off a box before sending
Very true.
When the college system developed their "minimum quals" for "faculty
service areas", they insisted that they were grandfathering all existing
credentials (which were "lifetime"!). Nobody told HR.
I think that where I work CVs do come straight to the
engineers, so
there's no HR filter.
Are y'all hiring?
I know that at a previous place of employment we'd
get maybe 50 CVs
for a job. Evaluating 50 CVs in any meaningful sense takes a *long*
time. It's much quicker to discard quickly based on some arbitrary
standard factor (e.g. degree) and then scan the remaining 10 CVs more
closely.
It is inevitable that there will always be some meaningless or irrelevant
selection criteria imposed in the mix.
As usual "the best is the enemy of the good
enough". Doesn't matter if
you reject the perfect job candidate as long as you get a reasonable
one.
While probably wuite true, it is HARD to accept that!
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
3 Oct
3 Oct
12:12 p.m.
New subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum,
On Sun, 2 Oct 2011 arcarlini at iee.org wrote:
I have a lovely set of 3 books called 'Amateur Telescope Making'.
Although telescope design has moved on since these were written, there's
a lot of interesting stuff in them. It's interesting, too, that the
authors of various sections are people like the Director of the Harvard
Observatory. Back then it appears that astronomers did understand the
instruemtns they were using.
But then these days it's seems to be common to treat eveything as a black
box and not understnad it. The usefulness of results obtained in this way
is questionable to say the least...
Dijsktra believed that "computer
science" should have been called
"computing science" (and - iirc - also said that you wouldn't
expect studying astronomy to teach you how to build a telescope).
Yet, an astronomer would have to be an idiot not to learn the principles
behind his tools. Wouldn't building your own [admittedly crude] one be a
good way to learn? And then give that [professionally inadequate] one to
a schoolkid. That said, having seen the occasional syllabus
for a few "computer
science" degrees, perhaps they are correctly named after all :-)
Is "computer science" an engineering discipline for designing computers?
Or is it an information science discipline for developing algorithms for
prociessing information?
2 Oct
2 Oct
11:35 a.m.
New subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum,
Now maybe you learned something from your degree
program and maybe you
didn't. But in short, a BS degree in computer science allows an HR
drone to check off a box before sending your resume on to the hiring
manager. It's there for clueless HR people and hiring managers who
don't know the first thing about software development to allow some
other mechanism to help them filter out people who can't program
because they're too inept to make the decision using their own
knowledge and skills.
THis is exactly the problem I mentioned yesterday (and which personally
affects me). I have no formal qualifications at all in electronics,
computer science, engineering, etc. But I don't think I am terminally
clueless in any of those areas. Sure there are plenty of people (and on
this list) who know more than me, but I think I know more than some
others I've met...
My qualification is in particle physics. Now, half of my (300 page or so)
thesis is schematics nad program listings. Presumably that should
indicate I have some kind of clue. But it's not the right bit of papepr
to satisfy a clueless HR person. Oh well.
-tony
1 Oct
1 Oct
8:05 p.m.
New subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum,
On 01/10/11 6:36 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
A classic iconoclast, and from my readings of that book, usually
under-estimated, then and now.
--Toby
Ted Nelson, in
his classic Computer Lib/Dream Machines (1974):
'Swarthmore left me with an exaggerated notion of the extent to which
ideas are valued in the academic world; it took two graduate schools to
clear this up. After that, as far as I was concerned, Ph.D. stood for
Poophead.'
Ted is not always thoroughly in touch with academia.
8:16 p.m.
New subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum,
> Ted
Nelson,
A classic iconoclast, and from my readings of that book, usually
under-estimated, then and now.
2 Oct
2 Oct
10:43 a.m.
New subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum,
Ted Nelson, in his classic Computer Lib/Dream
Machines (1974):
'Swarthmore left me with an exaggerated notion of the extent to which
ideas are valued in the academic world; it took two graduate schools to
clear this up. After that, as far as I was concerned, Ph.D. stood for
Poophead.'
Ted is not always thoroughly in touch with academia.
BS is BullShit
This doesn't work in the UK, we call that degree a 'BSc'. Mind you, I
have a BA (and MA) in 'Physics and theoretical physics'... I am still
tring to work out why that's an 'art'...
MS is More of the Same
I heard it as 'more Sh*t'
PhD is Piled Higher and Deeper
Are you (and others) claiming a strong negative correlation between
having academic qualifcations and being clueful? My experience suggests
there's almost no correlation at all, if there is , it's slightly
positive. But I really don't think that having a certain piece of paper
should be used as a criterion for selecting somebody for a job.
Several of my degrees have had unexpected very
powerful impact on
employment in ways that I had never intended when I was in college.
I see....
I learnt a lot of things when getting my palindromic initials. Not to do
with particle physics eitehr (the group I was working in). Things like
how to strip down and rebuild a Canon CX printer. How to overhual a line
printer. How to design with ECL. How to get high-speed op-amps not to
turn into oscillators. How to fix SMPSUs. Etc...
Much of which has been very useful in keeping my classics going.
-tony
3:05 p.m.
New subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum,
On Sun, 2 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote:
No, just my own personal experiences of too much time in academia.
They have let me get past the HR screening, in order to be considered,
for things in which my expertise did NOT come from the college experience.
PhD is Piled
Higher and Deeper
Are you (and others) claiming a strong negative correlation
between
having academic qualifcations and being clueful? My experience suggests there's almost no
correlation at all, if there is
, it's slightly positive.
It asserts tenacity.
Several of my
degrees have had unexpected very powerful impact on
employment in ways that I had never intended when I was in college.
I see....
I learnt a lot of things when getting my palindromic
initials. Not to do
with particle physics eitehr (the group I was working in). Things like
how to strip down and rebuild a Canon CX printer. How to overhual a line
printer. How to design with ECL. How to get high-speed op-amps not to
turn into oscillators. How to fix SMPSUs. Etc...
mostly irrelevant, or even orthogonal to what they were trying to teach
you
Going to college will not prevent you from learning, and sometimes
provides unconnected opportunities.
3 Oct
3 Oct
12:16 p.m.
New subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum,
I learnt a lot
of things when getting my palindromic initials. Not to do
with particle physics eitehr (the group I was working in). Things like
how to strip down and rebuild a Canon CX printer. How to overhual a line
printer. How to design with ECL. How to get high-speed op-amps not to
turn into oscillators. How to fix SMPSUs. Etc...
mostly irrelevant, or even orthogonal to what they were trying to teach
you
Going to college will not prevent you from learning, and sometimes
provides unconnected opportunities.
Over here it's schools that seem to do their utmost to prevent learning.
Fortunately they were not successful with me...
-tony
4 Oct
4 Oct
10:32 a.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Donzelli" <wdonzelli at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 1:32 AM
Subject: Re: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer
Museum, Vulcan Inc., Seattle
True, but some workplaces (atleast here in the UK) offer apprenticeships -
you learn as you go (e.g. night classes paid by the employer) at the same
time as you get experience during the day. It's a win-win situation.
Regards,
Andrew B
aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk
Granted this
is the UK, US might be different, but why the need for a
piece of paper?
A piece of paper shows that the holder has at least some stamina and
backbone to actually finish something, in some official way.
--
Will
30 Sep
30 Sep
6:08 p.m.
New subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum, Vulcan Inc., Seattle
From: Adrian Graham
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 5:23 PM
One question: this is all old stuff, experience is
100% a necessity.
Why a batchelors? What does earning a degree gain you in the field of
vintage computing, particularly this field that you needed to have
been there to have seen it in the first place?
The actual text of the educational requirement is
Bachelor's degree and at least six years related experience and/or
training; or ten years equivalent experience
Granted this is the UK, US might be different, but why
the need for a
piece of paper?
There isn't a *need* for a piece of paper. It's simply a metric for the
level of experience required to do this job.
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
6:12 p.m.
On 2011 Sep 30, at 5:23 PM, Adrian Graham wrote:
On 1 October 2011 01:11, Rich Alderson <RichA at
vulcan.com> wrote:
Well, if you read the fine print it's not a requisite.
I'd wonder more about specifying "Experience with CAD for circuit board
design and schematic capture" as required. I would have thought that
would be a smaller part of the overall job, and somebody with the more
pertinent technical abilities could be be anticipated to pick up such
an ability without much difficulty.
I'd think about applying but I don't have experience with Microsoft
Office (requisite).
Realistically, I expect they are pretty flexible and are going to be
looking at the overall person, their background, and competence.
We're hiring. ?The brief job description:
Vulcan Inc. ?- Seattle, WA
Living Computer Museum
One question: this is all old stuff, experience is 100% a necessity.
Why a batchelors? What does earning a degree gain you in the field of
vintage computing, particularly this field that you needed to have
been there to have seen it in the first place?
Reason I'm asking is this. I have an awful lot of friends with
(modern) computing related degrees who can't get jobs because, wait
for it, they don't have experience. Duh.
Granted this is the UK, US might be different, but why the need for a
piece of paper?
Just askin'
1 Oct
1 Oct
10:51 a.m.
New subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum,
Realistically, I expect they are pretty flexible and
are going to be=20
looking at the overall person, their background, and competence.
Yes, I suspect that _engineers_ (or scientists) would be flexible, and
would realise that somebody who was happy writing mathematical programs
is not going to have much problem picking up Excel (say).
The problem is that the Resume' (CV, whatever you want to call it) is not
going to get to the engineers. The HR department acts as a
preprocessor, and at least over here they will happilly filter out all
candidates who don't meet the strict list of criteria.
-tony
1:17 p.m.
New subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum,
On 2011 Oct 1, at 10:51 AM, Tony Duell wrote:
Maybe, maybe not; depends on the how the company is organised.
Vulcan may have a lot of money behind it, but it is a company for
Allen's personal interests, supporting specialty interests and areas,
I'd hazard a guess the people - even in a presumed HR department - are
aware of that. It's not really Giant Faceless Corporation.
I wouldn't be surprised if all the resumes ended up on the desk of Rich
or Ian or someone similar.
(As an applicant) one might prepare for the worst, but one needn't
presume it.
Realistically,
I expect they are pretty flexible and are going to
be=20
looking at the overall person, their background, and competence.
Yes, I suspect that _engineers_ (or scientists) would be flexible, and
would realise that somebody who was happy writing mathematical programs
is not going to have much problem picking up Excel (say).
The problem is that the Resume' (CV, whatever you want to call it) is
not
going to get to the engineers. The HR department acts as a
preprocessor, and at least over here they will happilly filter out all
candidates who don't meet the strict list of criteria. 
3 Oct
3 Oct
4:57 p.m.
New subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum,
On 10/1/2011 12:51 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
One of the nifty things about working for small outfits is they
typically don't have *that* sort of HR person, if any at all. There are
many other benefits as well, IMHO. Yes, there are some disadvantages as
well, but neither of my two experiences with a "biggy" was very pleasant.
--
Later,
Charlie C.
Realistically,
I expect they are pretty flexible and are going to be=20
looking at the overall person, their background, and competence.
Yes, I suspect that _engineers_ (or scientists) would be flexible, and
would realise that somebody who was happy writing mathematical programs
is not going to have much problem picking up Excel (say).
The problem is that the Resume' (CV, whatever you want to call it) is not
going to get to the engineers. The HR department acts as a
preprocessor, and at least over here they will happilly filter out all
candidates who don't meet the strict list of criteria.
-tony
5:31 p.m.
New subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum,
On 10/03/2011 07:57 PM, Charlie Carothers wrote:
I agree 100%. That problem (as well as others) started when
"Personnel" became "HR", and these pure-overhead staffers got big
heads
and a really skewed view of how important they are to the operation of a
company.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
The problem is
that the Resume' (CV, whatever you want to call it) is not
going to get to the engineers. The HR department acts as a
preprocessor, and at least over here they will happilly filter out all
candidates who don't meet the strict list of criteria.
One of the nifty things about working for small outfits is they
typically don't have *that* sort of HR person, if any at all. There are
many other benefits as well, IMHO. Yes, there are some disadvantages as
well, but neither of my two experiences with a "biggy" was very pleasant.
9:33 p.m.
New subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum,
On 10/3/11 5:31 PM, "Dave McGuire" <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 10/03/2011 07:57 PM, Charlie Carothers wrote:
I agree 100%. That problem (as well as others) started when
"Personnel" became "HR", and these pure-overhead staffers got big
heads
and a really skewed view of how important they are to the operation of a
company.
-Dave
Especially true if it is a company that has pulled many former MS HR and
execs over. Kind of like a certain "museum" that was initially staffed with
museum personnel and then they replaced many of them with former MS managers
that had -0- idea on how to run a museum.
The
problem is that the Resume' (CV, whatever you want to call it) is not
going to get to the engineers. The HR department acts as a
preprocessor, and at least over here they will happilly filter out all
candidates who don't meet the strict list of criteria.
One of the nifty things about working for small outfits is they
typically don't have *that* sort of HR person, if any at all. There are
many other benefits as well, IMHO. Yes, there are some disadvantages as
well, but neither of my two experiences with a "biggy" was very pleasant.
5 Oct
5 Oct
5:42 p.m.
New subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum,
From: Geoffrey Reed
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 9:33 PM
Especially true if it is a company that has pulled
many former MS HR and
execs over. Kind of like a certain "museum" that was initially staffed
with museum personnel and then they replaced many of them with former MS
managers that had -0- idea on how to run a museum.
Sounds dreadful. Care to name the museum? I'm curious.
Rich Alderson, Sr. Curator
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Ave S
Seattle, WA 98134
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
1 Oct
1 Oct
10:44 a.m.
New subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum,
One question: this is all old stuff, experience is
100% a necessity.
Why a batchelors? What does earning a degree gain you in the field of
vintage computing, particularly this field that you needed to have
been there to have seen it in the first place?
I know plenty of people with degrees in computer science, enmgineering,
etc who I would not let withing 20 feet of a soldering iron or a PDP11. I
also know unqualified people who I would be happy to have work on vintage
machines. And vice versa. There is simply no correlation.
Most computer science degrees, at least over here, have very little
hardware content. That which there is is remarkably non-specific (and one
infamous book, recomended all over the palce is a waste of trees IMHO). I
don't think many CS graduates have ever seen the full scehamtic of any
real processor, and as I discovered (the hard way!), the devil is in the
details. You may well understnad the general principles, but be totally
lost when presented with the pritset for a PDP11/45. And even more lost
when presented with a rack of boards for which no schematics exist.
Similarly Operating Systems. Oh, CS graduates probably know how to write
a scheduler but would be lost if asked to actually write a device driver
that works. And I wonder how many CS courses include assmebly language or
machine code any more -- things that are essential when you're staring at
a logic anaylser trying to work out what the darn procrssor is doing this
time...
-tony
30 Sep
30 Sep
8:48 p.m.
I am one of many who has had a lifetime of fixing things and dont have
a degree.
I see all job adverts theses days start of with requisites that
immediately give me no chance (outlook). It is depressing,
Missing from most education in my experience is fault finding and this
is essential for this job.
Also this requires some conservation knowledge, I saw no mention of
this, some objects can be preserved for longer by not being used and
others are better preserved by use.
Its a dream job if it was nearer though.
Dave Caroline
1 Oct
1 Oct
10:38 a.m.
New subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum,
This is all academic, since I am certainly not going to apply for said
job. There's no way I could contemplate crossing the Pond for one thing.
[...]
Sr. Server Engineer
Is iths a 'server engineer' or a 'sevice engineer'? My first thought is
tha the latter is a better description. I don't see much that is to do
with servers in the accepted sense.
Ahving read the full job description, requirements, etc, I must admit I
am somewhat depressed. Even if I say so myself, I think I have some clue
about repairing and maintaining vintage systems. And yet I meet none of
the requirements. Now you may well not want somebody like me, I can fully
understnad that.
I do think the 'requriements' are peculiar. For one thing you require
somebody who is familiar with certain things (such as Microsoft Office).
Now, I'll admit I've never used said programs, preferign to use LaTeX for
test formatting, and never having had any use for a spreadsheet. But I am
prepared to wager that if I had to use them, I'd be able to pick them up
in an afternoon, and would abnybody else who had sufficient knowledge of
computer hardware and software to be able to do the rest of the job. Alas
HR departments don't grasp this.
You also seem to want somebody which experience in wildiy differnt areas.
If you're not carefulm, you're going to get somebody who's dabbled in all
sorts of things rather than somebody who is an expert in a particular
area. Maybe that's what you want. Prsonally, I'd rather have a true
expert in a particular field (who is very likely to be able to pick up
related fields very quicking) than a 'jack of all trades and master of none'.
And you seem to perpetuate the myth that nobody can be self-taught in
these fields, by requiring a degree and field service experience.
With reference to the latter, I would argue that the requirements of
field service (being able to get the machine up and running quickly,
original spares avaialble, known-good asemblies to swap out avaialbe,
etc) are very differnt form the requirements of a museum (keeping the
machien as original as possible, some parts may have to be made, or
adapted, no-known-good spare boards, etc) are very different. You may be
good at one and awful at the other. So asking for field service
experience may not be what you want
I think it woudl also be useful to specify the sorts of machines (or
approximate dates) involved. My experience suggests that troubleshooting
a transistorised machine is somewhat different from troubleshooting an
SSI/MSI based machine which is in turn differnet from troubleshooting a
microprocessor-based machine. Perhaps you want to cover all of them, it's
not clear.
Oh well, as I said it's academic anyway. had it been over here, I might
well have given it a go, though.
-tony
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