John, somewhere in the basement, there must be a big box full with circuit schematics... I might try to find the docs during the weekend. If nobody else is faster, I'll go on the expedition then. Just to make sure: as opposed to the much simpler turnkey console, we're talking about the programmer's console that has a six-digit seven segment display and a keypad with octals and function keys like "LOAD ADR", "DIS ADR", "EXAM", "DEP", "BOOT", "INIT" etc.? - IIRC, it's the KY11-LB or so? Andreas John Allain wrote: -- Andreas Freiherr Vishay Semiconductor GmbH, Heilbronn, Germany http://www.vishay.com

John, the expedition was successful: I have the schematics. Now the problem is that I only have an A4 size scanner, so I cannot provide full pages, but I can pick out the important part from the center of each page. There are three pages in this part of the print set: 1 - component locations 2 - keypad and LEDs 3 - display There are other parts, dealing with, e.g., the UNIBUS board where the 8008 processor lives (not the ROM listings, however). Let me know if you want some of this stuff, too. I will send three b/w scans (ranging from 33 to 41kB in size) directly to you. If anybody else might want them, please let me know. Too bad they won't qualify for uploading somewhere on the net due to being incomplete. Anybody want to donate a larger scanner? ;-) Regards, Andreas John Allain wrote: -- Andreas Freiherr Vishay Semiconductor GmbH, Heilbronn, Germany http://www.vishay.com

Big thanks to Andreas for the plans to this, looks like there's 100% of the information needed to proceed. A question common to this and other things I've done in the past (I'm not an EE).... Let's see... Boards are 0.10" and ribbon cables are 0.05". This is solved somewhat with IDC connectors using a dual row of pins. The problem: Looks like I have to jumper every other pin to a board trace to get ribbon down fan-outs on PCBoard-lettes so I don't have to do this manually? All I need is 2-row to 1-row 0.10". What? Me lazy? John A.

tony said: This isn't bad, except for that the signals are now one set of 1,3,5,7... and one set of 2,4,6,8... If I want to keep the contiguous signals together then I have to jumper just about everything. I want a device that I can solder a 2-wide DIL to that has a single row of 1,2,3,4,5... SingleInLine 0.10" going out, where the signals stay together. Call it a PC board-lette. Nothing special. Although I have an OK Speed-Wrap here that may have to become more than a just a conversation piece. Up to now it's been discrete soldering on simple lattice line boards. stripboard? Again, to set up 30 lines inorder, its 29 jumpers. Yuk. John A.

Request for quotation: If I wanted a, say, 10"x10" pcb made to order, what would I expect to pay and what format drawings would the maker take? John A.

John Allain wrote: There are several PCB fabrication places on the web. As ball park figure call it $75 for set up and about $1 a square inch just to process a board. Most places require a 2 board minimum, and use CAD layout and drill files. Other options of course cost more because of manual labor. To have a PCB board made from a schematic costs about $3 a pin to get the cad layout made. The best free pcb layout program I have found is easytrax for dos. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html

John Chris Wren wrote: I am not sure just how to read "10+ACI- x 15+ACI-" but all the 'lite' or 'demo' software I have seen has a pin limit of 500 pins or a size limit of 4" x 3". Since right now I am on a shoe string and doing a PCB layout the only usable ones I have seen are Easytrax for dos, PCB? for linux/unix. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html

+AD4- If you're building your own interface circuit +AD4- you're going to have to route the signals around +AD4- to different chips, surely. The original thread of the conversation was about making the 11/34 console communicate over RS232 or some such. I woild use PIC to do this, eventually. But the first work would be in just being able to demo the console. There are a number of components that put 8 or more items together (at 0.10+ACI-) and connect them in one shot, like resistor packs, LED bar displays and DIP switches. I'd like to be able to have every component be as simple and direct as this. I guess my quest for simplicity comes John A.

Ethan Dicks wrote: ... You _can_ put the programmer's console on it: I am running it that way. Of course, you still need the matching board inside the box, and you won't have a lot of room (and power) for other peripherals, especially if you're lucky enough to have a cache board, so I hooked up a UNIBUS cable to a 10.5" box, where the controllers live. -- Andreas Freiherr Vishay Semiconductor GmbH, Heilbronn, Germany http://www.vishay.com

Ethan Dicks wrote: ... Good luck! Meanwhile, I'll try to get that blown 74123 out of my RX211 (output at pin 13 shows pulse, but inverting output at pin 4 shows no move, and of course only this one is used) without damaging the board. I suspect replacing the 74123 with a 74LS123 will change the timing? - DEC apparently meant it to be quite precise: the capacitors are +/- 5% types, the resistors even 1%. -- Andreas Freiherr Vishay Semiconductor GmbH, Heilbronn, Germany http://www.vishay.com

On the risk of getting OT, but desoldering ICs is certainly on-topic... Yes, I have not only heard this hint, but also tried to follow it. At least with my tools, I always have trouble getting to the pins to cut. There is not much room between a pin, the board, and the IC body. For the corner pins, it's quite easily doable, but when it comes to the other ones, you have remainings of neighbor pins that also get in the way. Using a pump is mandatory, no question about this. I sometimes can improve results by using some screening maze from a coax cable to take up solder that my pump would refuse to eat. I'd love to try one of those electric desolder pumps: it must be a great advantage if you have a continuous vacuum instead of one shot (even if in the case of this chip, a one-shot may be appropriate ;-). Jochen, you are in Germany as well: are those ELV7000 series kits still around somewhere? (For international readers: ELV used to be a German magazine for electronics hobbyists, and they created a series of very interesting devices, like voltage and frequency generators, measurement equipment etc., all to be homebuilt by their readers. However, at that time, I lacked the money for the kits. They appeared to be very good, but not very cheap.) Another point is the attribute "good" attached to "soldering iron". I do not have one of the common little stations with a transformer and an low voltage iron, and when I mention that my iron is a 70W type, people usually get scared. However, it is the only type I ever saw that is temperature controlled and adjustable, even though it looks like a cheap standard thingie and has no transformer with a stand and a sponge etc. I am happily using it for more than 20 years now, and the only trouble with it is the PVC insulation of the cable: it's fading now and will soon need replacement. I think if I use not too high a temperature, I can save the copper leads a bit longer: the bug is dead anyway. Haven't looked up what the other half of it is doing. The bad output is used to sample a signal coming from the address decoder and MSYN (master sync), IIRC. This signal is latched into a D-FF under control of the one-shot to generate SSYN (slave sync). Sounds much like bus timing, huh? I think I'll spend a socket on this chip, even if it wasn't there originally. This way, I might try a LS123 from my stock first, then a standard 123 if the LS type doesn't play. Meanwhile, I found formulas to compute the pulse duration, and, yes, they differ between LS and standard, not only in coefficients, but even in the form of the expression. In case somebody cares: 74123: t = 0.32 * R * C * (1 + 0.7 / R) with 5k < R < 50k 74LS123: t = 0.45 * R * C with 5k < R < 260k I might even want to read the UNIBUS specs... -- Andreas Freiherr Vishay Semiconductor GmbH, Heilbronn, Germany http://www.vishay.com

Seems like a should update my tools collection: OK, sorry for even asking. What I am currently using is an ERSA TC70. Seems to be a bit rare, most people don't know about it, but it IS a 70W type (so you have the power for multilayer or bigger links), and it has temperature control (so it won't get too hot) and is adjustable, as I said (250..375 centigrade, IIRC). It's just not electronics, but instead, they built a thermo switch (bi-metal) into the tip. Sounds quite nice. Again, time to update the tool set. You certainly have to clean up the PCB afterwards, but as long as you do this with a smaller iron... ;-) -- Andreas Freiherr Vishay Semiconductor GmbH, Heilbronn, Germany http://www.vishay.com

--- Ben Franchuk &lt;bfranchuk(a)jetnet.ab.ca&gt; wrote: Works on old enough boards - double-sided mostly. Multilayer boards have thicker plating and smaller effective-diameter through-holes. Doesn't work well if the leads are clinched. Personally, I reflow the board over a solder pot that's overfilled, and remove the ICs with a chip puller (to keep my hands away from them, and to provide enough grip to make clinched leads release). I have recovered a few pounds of 41256 chips that way (from boards that were previously stripped of other things) and a wad of things off ISA motherboards. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/

Probably, that's the point: I really need to get smaller-tipped cutters. I need to, because I can't get the tips between the shoulders of the pins: because the pins are wider near the IC body, there is even less room between them, and my cutter won't fit in. So I can only cut closer to the board, even if I know that this may require the board to take higher mechanical forces, compared to cutting near the chip. OK, you convinced me: I'll go out and find better tools. Probably time to do so anyway: I think I bought my current ones in the 1970s. No problem: see my previous note about soldering iron. The 70W thing has sufficient power, well under control, and I can switch between a pen-shape and a screwdriver-shaped tip with no tools (provided it's not currently at nominal temperature... ;-). For desoldering, I prefer the screwdriver shape because it can easily transfer a lot of heat through the flat surface. And, yes, it can help to add solder first: this can improve thermal contact. -- Andreas Freiherr Vishay Semiconductor GmbH, Heilbronn, Germany http://www.vishay.com

Jochen Kunz wrote: Still check the schematic and a datasheet , as you have less drive on the LS chip and I think the 74123's and the 74LS123's handle the clear line differently. On one the clear could trigger the one shot. Also they have 74123's here for $1.28 http://www.rocelec.com/ -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html

A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 528 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020307/c69fa94a/at…