early PDP-11/45 info sought

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fritzm＠fritzm.org

27 Jan 2019 27 Jan '19

4:40 p.m.

Those reading through the recent "PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem" thread here will know that I've gotten to some corners of my 11/45 CPU now that don't match up with the commonly available engineering drawings. My /45 is an early serial number (#152). So far I've verified hardware differences on at least my M8100 and M8105 cards and spares, relating to parity error abort handling. I would really like to track down any of the following resources: - PDP 11/45 system engineering drawings *earlier* than those currently available on bitsavers (Jun '74) - Any PDP 11/45 backplane wire list (what looks to be a wire list in the currently available engineering drawings is actually only a breakdown of the power harness.) - PDP 11/45 ECO information, particularly the following: M8100 00003 M8103 00005 M8105 00005 M8106 00007, 00008, 00012, 00012A M8110 00008 KB11-A 00015 Bitsavers seems to have a DEC-O-LOG for M8105, but this does not contain specifics on cuts and jumps for ECO 00005, referring only to the associated "kit". DEC-O-LOGs for the other processor boards are missing. If anybody thinks they might have any of this info squirreled away anywhere, I'd really love to find out more about it! Parts of the ECO's are pretty easy to figure, just by comparing the state of my existing boards to the '74 drawings. But other parts not so much... thanks much, --FritzM.

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cube1＠charter.net

27 Jan 27 Jan

7:07 p.m.

I think I can help some. I have a PDP-11/45 From U. Wisc. ECE that claims to be S/N 1525 . * I do NOT have an actual wire list, it seems, but I will hunt a bit more tomorrow or Tuesday. * I DO have earlier PDP-11/45 CPU drawings, but no ECO info Here is what I have for drawings: B-DD-11/45-0-AJ Basic Assy (PDP11/45) 5/72 [Not CPU Cards] D-CS-5409684-0-1-H 11/45 Console Board 3/72 B-DD-KB11-A-0-AA 16 Bit Processor May-72 [NOT CPU HERE] B-DD-DL11-0-K B-DD-KW11-0-* B-DD-BM873-0-F B-DD-KT11-C-B D-IC-11/45-0-1-H Power System Configuration K-WL-7009540-0-2 Wire List (small - only 6 pages) B-DD-861-0-L B-DD-H7420-0-E B-DD-H744-0-R B-DD-H745-0-R B-DD-H746-0-E E-CS-H754-0-1-T A-AL-11/45-0-3-B Accessory List D-AR-11/45-0-4-C (Rack Configurations) C-PL-11/45-0-4-D Arrangement Parts List B-DD-M9301-0-D B-DD-KT11-C-B [NOTE: Use KT11-C Only with KB11-A & FP11-B, Use KT11-CD Only with KB11-D & FP11-C] [M8107, M8108] KB11-A Engineering Drawings [PDP-11/45 CPU] KB11-A-0-AA Dated May 72 [M8100, M8101, M8102, M8103, ROM Control Listings for M8103, M8104, M8105, M8106, M8109, M8116, M930, M9202] NO wire list (Curiously, I also have KB11-C, 11/70 drawings.) B-DD-MF11-U-B 16K Core [M8293, G235, G114, H217, M7259 (Parity Control)] B-DD-MS11-B-B MOS Memory [M8110, G401] B-DD-MS11-C-B Bipolar Memory [M8110, M8111] B-DD-MS11-C-C Bipolar Memory (ECO MS11C-00003) Mentions M8120 B-DD-FB11-0-A FP11-B Floating Point Processor March 72 [M8114, M8115, M8112, M8812 ROM Control Listings, M8813] B-TC-FP11-C-6 FP11-C (Print Set MP00038) December 75 [M8126, M8127, M8128, M8129] DEC-11-HFPAA-C-D FP11 Floating Point Processor Maintenance Manual DEC-11-FP11C-MM-001 FP11-C Floating Point Processor Maintenance Manual EK-KT11C-MM-005 KT11-C, CD Memory Management Unit Maintenance Manual EK-MS11A-MM-006 MS11-A,B,C memory System Maintenance Manual PDP-11 Systems Course Training Drawings PDP-11/45, 11/70 Maintenance Course handout book And some diagnostic listings for the 11/40 and 11/45. I have not looked through my fiche for ECO info, though I am not hopeful, but will look tomorrow. Most of my fiche are too modern. Let me know what you want me to scan - should be able to get to it later this week. JRJ On 1/27/2019 6:40 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote:

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fritzm＠fritzm.org

9:01 p.m.

Hi Jay,

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On Jan 27, 2019, at 7:07 PM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote: I think I can help some... I DO have earlier PDP-11/45 CPU drawings...

Man, this list is the absolute best! The '72 KB11-A drawings would be most immediately useful. If you only have time for a subset of pages, I would find the schematics for M8100, M8103, M8105, and M8106 particularly interesting. It would also be interesting to compare the M8103 ROM listings between the '72 and '74 drawing sets and see whether they snuck in any microcode changes/fixes. I do have KT11-C and FP11-B in my system, but haven't checked their provenance yet. To the extent that I've had to repair these, anyway, they've matched the drawings that I do have.

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I have a PDP-11/45 From U. Wisc. ECE that claims to be S/N 1525

Wow, another <2000 11/45! Do you have yours up and running? Do have its ECO history? I found one other oddity during my restore that seems related to early 11/45's -- no +15V to pin CU1 in SPC slots 26-28, which keeps any EIA DL11 from working correctly in those slots (though the contemporary 20ma DL11-A would work). I have a feeling this might have been addressed in a later ECO. It would be interesting to check this on your backplane? Thanks for taking a look through your library, and for the generous offer to take the time to do some scans. cheers, --FritzM.

cube1＠charter.net

29 Jan 29 Jan

11:08 a.m.

On 1/27/2019 11:01 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote:

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Hi Jay,

On Jan 27, 2019, at 7:07 PM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote: I think I can help some... I DO have earlier PDP-11/45 CPU drawings...

Will start scanning today.

...

I do have KT11-C and FP11-B in my system, but haven't checked their provenance yet. To the extent that I've had to repair these, anyway, they've matched the drawings that I do have.

I have a PDP-11/45 From U. Wisc. ECE that claims to be S/N 1525

My 11/45 has not been on for a lonnnng time. Some time ago I had it on, it could sometimes boot RT-11, but failed MUL diagnostics - but I was not confident that the diagnostic itself was correct. I will see if I can check on the +15V issue (hopefully without having to turn the thing on) - I don't have a real TTY for it to talk to, so it isn't something I would have noticed.

...

Thanks for taking a look through your library, and for the generous offer to take the time to do some scans. cheers, --FritzM.

Not a problem. Fortunately, when I migrated to my new PC this winter, I had the foresight to test my scanner - which did NOT work because the TWAIN drivers for it (a Ricoh IS300e) would no longer install, and installed a virtualbox VM running Windows 7 to talk with it. JRJ

cube1＠charter.net

1:46 p.m.

New subject: Oh Darn (Re: early PDP-11/45 info sought)

Dang it - the dates fooled me. (blush) Sorry to get your hopes up, Fritz. Here is some more accurate information: The first set: The first page (the directory) is actually 6/76 in the revisions block. It is *later* than the one on bitsavers. Interesting, though: it actually shows TWO directories. One column is labeled 11/45-1 and the second 11/45-2. It looks like the 2nd column is for a later CPU, KB11-D. This set appears to be mostly index pages and chassis/power supply. The one on Bitsavers includes the KB11-A drawings, which I have as a separate document (complete with cover). The KT11-C is actually 12/75 It is *later* than the one on bitsavers. The KB11-A is actually 4/76 The FP11-B is 7/72 rather than 3/72 THIS IN FACT IS THE ONE ALREADY ON BITSAVERS: There is a name and "stamp" on the first page that is quite recognizable, and the dates on my scan match. So, I won't rescan it. ;) The FP11-C is 12/75 as noted [And is not currently on bitsavers] I will still scan them in except for the one (and the other manuals Noel identified). Apologies for the confusion. I was using the date in the date block on the bottom right of the first page - I didn't notice the revisions block on the bottom left. 8( JRJ On 1/27/2019 9:07 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctech wrote:

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fritzm＠fritzm.org

2:11 p.m.

New subject: Oh Darn (Re: early PDP-11/45 info sought)

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On Jan 29, 2019, at 1:46 PM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote: Dang it - the dates fooled me. (blush) Sorry to get your hopes up, Fritz.

Oh, darn! Well, thanks anyway for taking a look. And so the search continues... The later revisions and other docs are still quite a nice find, and it would certainly be nice for them to find their way to bitsavers. --FritzM.

cube1＠charter.net

4:34 p.m.

On 1/27/2019 9:07 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctech wrote:

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Let me know what you want me to scan - should be able to get to it later this week. JRJ On 1/27/2019 6:40 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > Those reading through the recent "PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem" thread here will know that I've gotten to some corners of my 11/45 CPU now that don't match up with the commonly available engineering drawings. > > My /45 is an early serial number (#152). So far I've verified hardware differences on at least my M8100 and M8105 cards and spares, relating to parity error abort handling. I would really like to track down any of the following resources: > > - PDP 11/45 system engineering drawings *earlier* than those currently available on bitsavers (Jun '74) > > - Any PDP 11/45 backplane wire list (what looks to be a wire list in the currently available engineering drawings is actually only a breakdown of the power harness.) > > - PDP 11/45 ECO information, particularly the following: >

The first batch of scanning is done. 600dpi, CCITT Group 4 except for the cover pages which are LZW. You will find them in my Google Drive at https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2v4WRwISEQRWWFFdVpCZWFTZEU In subfolder pdf/dec/pdp11/1145 Note that the FP11-B material is already on bitsavers (this is generally where I put my contributions for them to snag...) Memories (and perhaps FP11-C) tomorrow, I hope, then on to the manuals that Noel suggested.

fritzm＠fritzm.org

6:18 p.m.

...

The first batch of scanning is done... 600dpi, CCITT Group 4 except for the cover pages which are LZW. You will find them in my Google Drive at https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2v4WRwISEQRWWFFdVpCZWFTZEU In subfolder pdf/dec/pdp11/1145

Thanks, Jay! I note with some amusement pencil annotations on various pages, relating to the very same bits of parity circuitry that I am investigating! It looks like somebody else might have been having a go down the same path... :-) --FritzM.

cube1＠charter.net

31 Jan 31 Jan

9:19 a.m.

On 1/27/2019 6:40 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote:

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I am working on transcribing some DEC-O-Logs - more than are on bitsavers that relate to the KB11-A and its cards. In the process, I came across KB11A-B0008 - which indicates that NPG, PA, PB, LTC, ACLO, DCO and +15V are ALL missing in slots 26-28. That FCO was dated SEP-72, and specifically mentions the DL11. I think you had mentioned that issue in another post. Also, I have at least two sets of DEC-O-Logs. (JAN 86 and JUL 86) that cover the 11/45. I would be happy to loan a set out to someone who promised to scan or print/scan a set. I hope to be done transcribing later today. NOTE: The M8110 looks like a mess - lots of ECOs that culminate in replacing with an M8120. You might not want to use it, and just use other MS11s.

fritzm＠fritzm.org

10:02 a.m.

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On Jan 31, 2019, at 9:19 AM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote: I am working on transcribing some DEC-O-Logs - more than are on bitsavers that relate to the KB11-A and its cards.

Oooh! I'm excited again! :-)

...

In the process, I came across KB11A-B0008 - which indicates that NPG, PA, PB, LTC, ACLO, DCO and +15V are ALL missing in slots 26-28. That FCO was dated SEP-72, and specifically mentions the DL11. I think you had mentioned that issue in another post.

Ah ha! This jives with what I've seen on my backplane. I eventually just put in a DD11 and walked away from slots 26-28, since I couldn't be sure how they were wired and what would work correctly in there.

...

Also, I have at least two sets of DEC-O-Logs. (JAN 86 and JUL 86) that cover the 11/45. I would be happy to loan a set out to someone who promised to scan or print/scan a set.

I don't have any fiche gear, or I'd offer to help! I do hope somebody will take you up on this.

...

NOTE: The M8110 looks like a mess - lots of ECOs that culminate in replacing with an M8120. You might not want to use it, and just use other MS11s.

I don't actually have anything that uses the M8110; I am mostly interested in that one to understand how it co-evolved with the parity changes in the CPU (sometimes its easier to understand if you can see both sides). cheers (and thanks again!), --FritzM.

cube1＠charter.net

12:02 p.m.

On 1/31/2019 12:02 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote:

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Well, the short answer is the same: it seems to have been an absolute mess. So bad DEC eventually threw in the towel on it, apparently, and moved on and created the M8120. Perhaps foreshadowing the mess that MITS had with its first 4K dynamic memory board. ;) So, if you have one in there, you don't want it in any memory you will be addressing. I'd probably pull it, or at least put it way up high with a gap before it. The parity change in the CPU was to change parity errors from vectoring thru location 4 to vector through 114. My 1972 and 1973 11/45 processor handbooks do not mention location 114, just location 4. My 1976 pdp11/04/05/10/35/40/45 identify 114 as the vector for memory system errors. So software (and diagnostics) from sometime after 1973 would presumably expect that.

paulkoning＠comcast.net

12:08 p.m.

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On Jan 31, 2019, at 3:02 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: On 1/31/2019 12:02 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote:

Interesting. By the way, a gap won't make any difference for RSTS. When it scans for memory, it examines the entire address space. So whether memory is contiguous or not, it will all be seen if it appears to be working. You can disable it (via memory options in DEFAULT) if you need to.

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The parity change in the CPU was to change parity errors from vectoring thru location 4 to vector through 114. My 1972 and 1973 11/45 processor handbooks do not mention location 114, just location 4. My 1976 pdp11/04/05/10/35/40/45 identify 114 as the vector for memory system errors. So software (and diagnostics) from sometime after 1973 would presumably expect that.

RSTS certainly requires that, yes. paul

fritzm＠fritzm.org

12:12 p.m.

...

On Jan 31, 2019, at 12:02 PM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote: The parity change in the CPU was to change parity errors from vectoring thru location 4 to vector through 114.

Yes, but also, there was apparently rework of logic feeding the CONF console flag and associated abort signaling. Before the ECO's (as in my system) a UNIBUS parity error actually causes a machine halt, and not a trap. (After the ECO's, FASTBUS memory apparently could still do this, optionally, but would then continue on to trap 114 after front panel CONT.) Also, jumpers were added at some point to optionally disable detection of UNIBUS parity errors entirely. --FritzM.

cube1＠charter.net

11:47 a.m.

I have completed my transcription of what I felt would be the most salient entries and information in those entries of the PDP-11/45 DEC-O-Logs. Curiously, there were no entries at all for the KB11-D. The transcripts are available on my Google Drive at https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2v4WRwISEQRWWFFdVpCZWFTZEU under pdf/dec/fieldService/dec-o-log Of course, they won't be 100% accurate, but I did take special care to note areas where I had trouble making stuff out, and over signal names and FCO cuts/adds where available. Note/offer: If someone has a good way to scan fiche, I could send (one at a time) my JAN86 and JUL86 fiche sets (9 fiche) off to that someone to scan/print. On 1/27/2019 6:40 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote:

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fritzm＠fritzm.org

11:52 a.m.

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On Jan 31, 2019, at 11:47 AM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote: I have completed my transcription of what I felt would be the most salient entries and information in those entries of the PDP-11/45 DEC-O-Logs. The transcripts are available on my Google Drive at https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2v4WRwISEQRWWFFdVpCZWFTZEU

Oh awesome -- thanks much! I've been looking for this info for a long time; should have asked on the list sooner. --FritzM.

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cube1＠charter.net
fritzm＠fritzm.org
paulkoning＠comcast.net