1 Sep
2001
1 Sep
'01
3:35 p.m.
> Being a musician, this conjures up all sorts of
ideas for using
computer
> sounds to make music. I have a recording studio
hung off my main
> non-classic box, so I can add this to my List of Unfinished Projects.
Some
useable sounds
might be:
(printers, of course)
hard drive spinup & chatter
Head crashes :-) 
2 Sep
2 Sep
8:45 a.m.
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5 Sep
5 Sep
1:07 a.m.
Hi,
> > Head crashes :-)
>
> I considered that but don't know of any way to consistently get heads to
> crash in such a controlled manner as to be useable musically (i.e., makes
> pretty much the same sound every time).
>
> Do you?
[cut]
A friend of mine tells of a friend of his who's HDD was a little noisy
when doings seeks - so he used to play tunes with that.
I am not sure that ancient analogue tape recorders are
on-topic :-)
Hey - remember they used to be used to store programs before we got
disks! :&)
-- Matt
---
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matt(a)m-techdiagnostics.ltd.uk, matthew.london(a)stud.umist.ac.uk
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Web Page:
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10:04 a.m.
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11:41 p.m.
On Wed, 5 Sep 2001 23:04:53 +0100 (BST) Tony Duell
<ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
I did! I hooked up my Akai 4000DS reel-to-reel
(transistor, not valve) to my Compukit UK101. The idea was
to try to record faster by using higher freqencies and a
higher baud rate -- and a higher tape speed, 7 1/2 ips.
> I am not
sure that ancient analogue tape recorders
> are on-topic :-)
While it is possible to use such machines to store programs
from most
home computers, I don't think many people did. Somebody actually told me
the IBM PC 'cassette port' wouldn't work with a reel-to-reel tape
recorder, but never gave a sensible reason why not (and FWIW, I don't
believe it won't work).
-tony
As far as I can see, anything that'll record and play back
audio should work on a cassette port. So a reel-to-reel
machine should be fine, as should, say 45rpm vinyl records.
Didn't one of the Elektor machines use 45s for software
distribution? Wasn't there once a music CD with software
on one track (for a Spectrum?)?
--
John Honniball
Email: John.Honniball(a)uwe.ac.uk
University of the West of England
6 Sep
6 Sep
6:44 a.m.
Hi,
I did! I hooked up my Akai 4000DS reel-to-reel
(transistor, not valve) to my Compukit UK101. The idea was
to try to record faster by using higher freqencies and a
higher baud rate -- and a higher tape speed, 7 1/2 ips.
*nod* (see my other reply post)
I do seem to recall a magazine giving away a cover "disc" - which was one
of those flexible 7" vinyl discs - you shoved that on your record deck and
fed it to your spectrum. Seemed quite a neat idea - I never bought the mag
tho. I suppose looking back now I should have done :&/
-- Matt
---
E-mail:
matt(a)pkl.net, matt(a)knm.yi.org, matt(a)printf.net
matt(a)m-techdiagnostics.ltd.uk, matthew.london(a)stud.umist.ac.uk
mattl(a)vcd.student.utwente.nl, mlondon(a)mail.talk-101.com
Web Page:
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http://pkl.net/~matt/
PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F
PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html
> I am not sure that ancient analogue tape
recorders
> are on-topic :-)
While it is possible to use such machines to store programs
from most
home computers, I don't think many people did. Somebody
actually told me
the IBM PC 'cassette port' wouldn't work with a reel-to-reel tape
recorder, but never gave a sensible reason why not (and FWIW, I don't
believe it won't work).
-tony
As far as I can see, anything that'll record and play back
audio should work on a cassette port. So a reel-to-reel
machine should be fine, as should, say 45rpm vinyl records.
Didn't one of the Elektor machines use 45s for software
distribution? Wasn't there once a music CD with software
on one track (for a Spectrum?)?
11:36 a.m.
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1:23 p.m.
On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, Tony Duell wrote:
In the US, IBM NEVER sold a cassette cable. But the pinout was the same
as the TRS-80 1 and 3.
Radio Shack here used to say that THEIR cassette recorder (CTR-80?) was
the best for it, and the only one that would work reliably. Their
explanation was that it wouldn't work right with a higher fidelity, that
it needed the amount of "blur" of the signal that theirs did!
I always found the TRS-80 cassette to be an almost entirely WRITE-ONLY
medium. Success with reading back tapes was as elusive as successful CD
burning with the eatly 2X CDRs.
There was once an outfit that marketed a PC to PC communications package
through the cassette ports. That died immediately on release of the XT.
There had been similar stuff with Coco.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
> Somebody
actually told me
> the IBM PC 'cassette port' wouldn't work with a reel-to-reel tape
> recorder, but never gave a sensible reason why not (and FWIW, I don't
> believe it won't work).
I believe it will work as well.. As far as I
remember one of the reasons
given why it woulding work is that the plugs on the IBM cassette cable
wouldn't fit a reel-to-reel tape recorder. Of course that would be no
problem at all for a hacker with a soldering iron :-) 
2:26 p.m.
New subject: IEEE-488 interface and Commodore Pet
Someone across the lake sent a post the other day about a Brain Boxes PC Elite IEEE-488
card and its
supposed ability to transfer files to and from a Commodore Pet drive.
This seems possible, and the software does exist. Has anyone ever transferred files to
and/or from a Pet
floppy drive using the GPIB interface?
If it works, does anyone have an ISA or PCI IEEE-488 card they would like to part with?
(I have one for the
Apple II, and would trade). I don't know if the Brain Box supplied software only
works with their card or any
card. If the former, any of you British chaps want to part with such a card (these cards
seem not to be
available in the colonies)?
Louis
8 Sep
8 Sep
5:51 a.m.
New subject: IEEE-488 interface and Commodore Pet
I have done some research, and since this subject seems to only interest me, I will
respond to myself.
From what I have found out, the various IEEE-488 cards
do not interface with a PC in a standard way.
Rather, each has its own proprietary
interface, and thus uses its own driver. It therefore appears that
software specifically written for one card will not work with another, at least without
some hacking.
The Commodore Pet floppy drive transfer software for the Brain Boxes card appears unknown.
There is
some information on a do it yourself card to allow a PC to communicate with a Pet drive,
but not on this
already written software.
Therefore, I see no alternate but to appeal to my British brethren regarding any such
card they may find in
their travels. Tony, Pete, et al, I beseech you! To each of you I say, "Hast thou a
response?"
Louis
On Thu, 06 Sep 2001 22:26:27 -0400 (EDT), Louis Schulman wrote:
#Someone across the lake sent a post the other day about a Brain Boxes PC Elite IEEE-488
card and its
#supposed ability to transfer files to and from a Commodore Pet drive.
#
#This seems possible, and the software does exist. Has anyone ever transferred files to
and/or from a Pet
#floppy drive using the GPIB interface?
#
#If it works, does anyone have an ISA or PCI IEEE-488 card they would like to part with?
(I have one for
the
#Apple II, and would trade). I don't know if the Brain Box supplied software only
works with their card or any
#card. If the former, any of you British chaps want to part with such a card (these cards
seem not to be
#available in the colonies)?
#
#Louis
#
10 Sep
10 Sep
2:54 a.m.
New subject: IEEE-488 interface and Commodore Pet
On Sat, 08 Sep 2001 13:51:10 -0400 (EDT) Louis Schulman
<louiss(a)gate.net> wrote:
From what I have found out, the various IEEE-488 cards
do
not interface with a PC in a standard way.
There seems to be a "de facto" standard, which is to clone
the National Instruments cards and software. The Brain
Boxes manual mentions a "GPIB.COM" device driver which
makes their card work with the NI applications.
Rather, each has its own proprietary interface, and
thus
uses its own driver.
Yes, but the drivers' APIs may be fairly standard.
It therefore appears that software specifically
written
for one card will not work with another, at least without
some hacking.
Software that uses the MS-DOS "GPIB.COM" driver may work,
though.
The Commodore Pet floppy drive transfer software for
the
Brain Boxes card appears unknown.
I'll give it another try as soon as I have all the right
things set up. My PET disks are stored underneath my PET,
which is behind my DEC LN03R laser, which is under a bunch
of stuff put there to make room for a BBQ over the
weekend... :-)
There is some information on a do it yourself card to
allow a PC to communicate with a Pet drive, but not on
this already written software.
Where can I find out about this DIY IEEE card?
--
John Honniball
Email: John.Honniball(a)uwe.ac.uk
University of the West of England
2:44 a.m.
New subject: IEEE-488 interface and Commodore Pet
On Thu, 06 Sep 2001 22:26:27 -0400 (EDT) Louis Schulman
<louiss(a)gate.net> wrote:
Someone across the lake sent a post the other day
about
a Brain Boxes PC Elite IEEE-488 card
That was me!
and its supposed ability to transfer files to and from
a
Commodore Pet drive.
Yes, I have a piece of software that I downloaded from the
Brain Boxes Web site:
http://www.brainboxes.com
which claims to do that. I haven't tried it yet.
I don't know if the Brain Box supplied software
only works
with their card or any card.
The card claims to be compatible with the IBM IEEE card,
and with the National Instruments card. But you have to
select this mode with a DIP-switch. It's possible that the
PET transfer software only works in one mode.
If the former, any of you British chaps want to part
with
such a card (these cards seem not to be available in the
colonies)?
I only have the one card, sorry. And I gained another
IEEE-488 device over the weekend, an HP 1980B oscilloscope
(with manuals).
--
John Honniball
Email: John.Honniball(a)uwe.ac.uk
University of the West of England
6:55 a.m.
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12:20 p.m.
New subject: IEEE-488 interface and Commodore Pet
On Mon, 10 Sep 2001 19:55:38 +0100 (BST), Tony Duell wrote:
#> > I don't know if the Brain Box supplied software only works
#> > with their card or any card.
#>
#> The card claims to be compatible with the IBM IEEE card,
#
#Which IBM IEEE card? There are at least 2, and they are totally
#different. I was given an IBM IEEE488 card which uses a pair of 9914
#chips (one for data transfer, one to send commands, I think). The one in
#the O&A Techref is based round a NEC 7210 chip.
The information I received from Brain Boxes is that their card uses the NEC 7210 chip.
They still have some
of these cards in stock, although they are no longer in production. They sent me a very
helpful e-mail. The
only problem is that they want 320 pounds for one card.
Well, I don't know what things cost in Britain, but out-of-production DOS-based ISA
cards generally don't
sell for US $540. Usually, it is more like US $5, maybe new US $50. So, I don't
think I will be doing any
business with Brain Boxes.
Louis
11 Sep
11 Sep
2:13 a.m.
New subject: IEEE-488 interface and Commodore Pet
On Mon, 10 Sep 2001 20:20:05 -0400 (EDT) Louis Schulman
<louiss(a)gate.net> wrote:
The information I received from Brain Boxes is that
their
card uses the NEC 7210 chip.
Yes, indeed.
They sent me a very helpful e-mail.
Now that's good news -- a company that's helpful about old,
"obsolete" products!
The only problem is that they want 320 pounds for one
card.
Ooh, that's a problem. I paid two pounds for it, in a junk
shop. Shame there was only one -- I did rummage about in
the box for quite a while!
--
John Honniball
Email: John.Honniball(a)uwe.ac.uk
University of the West of England
2:09 a.m.
New subject: IEEE-488 interface and Commodore Pet
On Mon, 10 Sep 2001 19:55:38 +0100 (BST) Tony Duell
<ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Which IBM IEEE card? There are at least 2, and they
are totally
different. I was given an IBM IEEE488 card which uses a pair of 9914
chips (one for data transfer, one to send commands, I think). The one in
the O&A Techref is based round a NEC 7210 chip.
My Brain Boxes card has a 7210 chip, plus the two IEEE bus
buffer chips and a bunch of PALs, buffers, etc. for the ISA
bus. There are six DIP-switches for the base address and
mode, plus some jumpers for IRQ and DMA settings.
--
John Honniball
Email: John.Honniball(a)uwe.ac.uk
University of the West of England
5:33 p.m.
New subject: IEEE-488 interface and Commodore Pet
--- John Honniball <John.Honniball(a)uwe.ac.uk> wrote:
On Mon, 10 Sep 2001 19:55:38 +0100 (BST) Tony Duell
<ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Which IBM IEEE card? There are at least 2...
My Brain Boxes card has a 7210 chip, plus the two IEEE
bus
buffer chips and a bunch of PALs, buffers, etc. for the ISA
bus. There are six DIP-switches for the base address and
mode, plus some jumpers for IRQ and DMA settings.
That sounds a little like what I have... Mine are National Instruments
180212-01, Rev A PCBs (c. 1984), silk-screened to Assy. No. 180210-0.
The main chip is an NEC 7201, the IEEE-488 interface chips are Nat. Semi
DS75162 and DS75160. There's a five-position DIP switch labelled "0, 1,
2, 14, 13", which I take to be a GPIB address, a bank of jumpers marked
"I2, I3, I4, I5, I6, I7" (it's an 8-bit card, but you don't usually see
things trying to use IRQ6), and a bank of DMA jumpers marked "R1, A1,
R2, A2, R3, A3". Additionally, there are unpopulated areas of the board,
indicating that it could have a Lithium coin cell, a 58167 and some
additional TTL logic (74LS273, 74LS00 and a 74LS32). I'd consider
populating it if a) I had the 58167 and b) knew what the values of the
dozen or so discreet parts are (including Xtal Y1).
I remember looking for this card on the Nat'l Instruments site when I
first got them. I came up zilch. Does anyone have any programming
info for these? I'd accept a DOS driver; I'd love register docs so I
could write Linux software.
I've recently been assisting someone in Australia with his Commodore
D9060 and D9090 drives. Being able to play with mine from a more
modern machine might keep my interest up. His problems included a
"helpful" tech who rearranged the PROMs on the OMTI 25011 board (SASI
to ST-506 - does anyone have docs on _that_, especially the SASI command
set it responds to?) and confusion about how a D9060 and D9090 differ
(jumpers on the "DOS" board that tell the unit how many heads to expect).
The good news on the D9060/D9090 front is that against all expectations,
it appears that it's possible to install an ST225 and format it and it
works. I never tried it myself because the Write Precomp numbers are
different between a ST-255 and the Tandon TM602S that was the standard
4-head drive in the D9060. I even bought another TM602S at the recent
Dayton Computerfest (at Hara Arena, like the Hamvention). It was only $3,
but I didn't inspect it carefully. Some *cretin* cut ALL the wires
coming out of the HDA that plugged into the circuit boards. I suppose I
have a spare set of boards and a good set of platters if I ever care
to break the seal and attempt to migrate the wires from a future dead
drive to this one. :-(
So in short, I'm looking for info on programming _my_ GPIB cards, the
Nat'l Instruments 180210, on the OMTI 25011 which I plan to drive
from said GPIB card, filtered through the DOS board of
a C= D9060, and
the DOS board of a D9060 (a disassembled ROM could save me lots of
time
doing it myself).
Anyone with info?
Thanks,
-ethan
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12 Sep
12 Sep
6:35 a.m.
New subject: IEEE-488 interface and Commodore Pet
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9:46 a.m.
New subject: IEEE-488 interface and Commodore Pet
--- Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Oops. Sure is.
Hmm... good point. I do recall seeing some stuff about how wierd the
addressing normally is (something about the progression for multiple
cards going like 0x03ee, 0x04ee, 0x05ee, then something like 0x3e1...
I don't recall the actual numbers off the top of my head.) I don't
have an ISA spec in front of me - is there an A13 and A14 on an 8-bit
slot?
That sounds a
little like what I have... Mine are National Instruments
180212-01, Rev A PCBs (c. 1984), silk-screened to Assy. No. 180210-0.
The main chip is an NEC 7201, the IEEE-488 interface chips are Nat.
Semi
I'll bet that's a typo for 7210. There's a
five-position DIP switch labelled "0, 1, 2, 14, 13", which I
take to be a GPIB address, a bank of jumpers marked
I wonder if that might be part of the I/O address. Lines 0,1,2 and 13,14.
IIRC, the IBM GPIB card did decode address lines other than the normal 10
used by most I/O devices. The top ones were used to select between
multiple GPIB cards in the same machine IIRC. That last set might be 'Request' and
'Acknowldge' for DMA? In other words
a DMA channel select.
Right.
> indicating that it could have a Lithium coin
cell, a 58167...
The 58167 is a real time clock IIRC. In which case the
Xtal is almost
certainly a 32.768kHz one. They normally come in a tiny cylindrical can.
The silk-screen shows an oval spot with the leads spaced about .2" apart.
I expect that it was for one of those flush-mount .1" tall Xtal cans.
The small cylindrical ones I've seen on motherboards could be made to
fit with no problem.
You can probably raid the 58167 off an old XT real
time clock card, or
some older AT motherboards, or the like.
Good point. Did AT motherboards have them? I've mostly seen Dallas
chips with embedded batteries on clone boards.
The other passives aren't that critical. The
values of the capacitors
connected to the crystal (around 22pF) you can get from the 58167 data
sheet. Try 10k for any pull-up resistors and 0.1uF ceramic for decoupling
capacitors. That should be a start.
Good tip.
Now the problem is what kind of software support there is for these. One
thing I might do (eventually) is to cobble up a driver for the GG2 Bus+
for the Amiga *if* DMA is optional. If DMA is required, it's a no-go.
-ethan
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10:45 a.m.
New subject: IEEE-488 interface and Commodore Pet
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13 Sep
13 Sep
3:20 p.m.
New subject: CFCJF
At the moment, it appears that a hurricane may be located between Tampa and Orlando on
Saturday
morning. Since I would be driving from Tampa to Orlando, this might prove inconvenient.
Therefore, and
given the other events of the week, may I propose that we re-schedule?
Louis
7 Sep
7 Sep
5:56 a.m.
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11:04 a.m.
Radio Shack sold a 'network' for the Model 3/4
or the CoCo. It was
designed for use in schools and let one 'master' machine (to be operated
by the teacher) communicate with 16 student machines. You could load a
program from disk on the teacher's machine and then transfer it by
CSAVE/CLOAD to all the student machines. Students could transfer their
work (BASIC programms, SCRIPSIT word processor files, etc) back to the
teachers machine in much the same way and have it saved on disk or
printed out.
I only ever saw it in the catalogues, though.
I used one of these networks in 1982/83 with, just as you
said, a single master and 16 slave machines. It was built around a
Model III with 48k and dual disk drives as the master while the other
machines were all 16k cassette-based. We mainly used it just to load
programs from disk to the cassette-based machines. I don't recall
having a printer connected to it or using the master machine for
saving stuff from the slave machines. It worked pretty well though.
Anyone know just what additional stuff was needed to do it?
Jeff
--
Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File
http://www.cchaven.com
http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
12:28 p.m.
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2:34 p.m.
New subject: TRS-80 Networking (was Re: symphony for dot matrix printers)
I assume it was just a little amplifier (op-amp based?)
to boost the
cassette output signal from the 'CSAVE-ing' machine to the levels needed
for the cassette input on the 'CLOAD-ing' machine. Oh, and the switch I
mentioned, and connectors.
I'll have to dig through my listing of RS part#'s and see if
I can pinpoint some info on it. I've always been interested in the
set up but that was the one and only time I've either seen or used
it. I do remember there being a switchbox for selecting one or
multiple machines to receive the data but don't remember anything
about the way it was wired up. Given that the diskless machines had
cassette recorders plugged up to me standard cassette port, I wonder
if there wasn't some kind of interface card for the network
connection itself though.
Jeff
--
Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File
http://www.cchaven.com
http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
7:26 p.m.
I used one of these networks in 1982/83 with, just as you
said, a single master and 16 slave machines. It was built around a
Model III with 48k and dual disk drives as the master while the other
machines were all 16k cassette-based. We mainly used it just to load
programs from disk to the cassette-based machines. I don't recall
having a printer connected to it or using the master machine for
saving stuff from the slave machines. It worked pretty well though.
Anyone know just what additional stuff was needed to do it?
From what I've been told, the system was designed
by Tony Pepin. This is
kind of neat for me since at one time I owned (and may
still, I'm not sure
*grin*) a Model I that had his name, address and phone # engraved on the
case. (I also owned a Model I that at one time was the personal machine
of the editor of 80 US Micro - that was pretty cool too. *laughs*)
g.
8 Sep
8 Sep
2:33 a.m.
From what I've been told, the system was designed
by Tony Pepin. This is
kind of neat for me since at one time I owned (and may still, I'm not sure
*grin*) a Model I that had his name, address and phone # engraved on the
case. (I also owned a Model I that at one time was the personal machine
of the editor of 80 US Micro - that was pretty cool too. *laughs*)
That's cool...it's always neat to know any specific history
of a machine like that. One of my Model 2000's was gotten from Roy
Soltoff of Misosys. He had bought it to get into software
development for the 2000 but then ended up never using it when the
market never materialized.
Jeff
--
Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File
http://www.cchaven.com
http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
7 Sep
7 Sep
7:29 p.m.
New subject: Apple Imagewriter 4 pen plotter pens
I just bought a box of Apple Imagewriter 4 pen plotter pens (couple dozen
sealed bags of 4). Anybody know more about this device?
Looks to be strictly Apple IIgs era. Simple searches haven't turned up much
beyond FS ads from a couple years ago.
6 Sep
6 Sep
6:33 a.m.
Hi,
Most people used compact cassette recorders for that. I am talking about
things a little older than that -- like the old Brennell Mark V I happen
to have (3 motors, 3 heads, 3 speed deck, but 4 positions on the
equalistation switch on the amplifier [1]). Valved, of course.
[1] The amplifier has settings for 1+7/8, 3+3/4, 7+1/2 and 15 ips. The
deck has a 3 speed selector. You can either have the 1+7/8, 3+3/4, 7+1/2
range or the 3+3/4, 7+1/2, 15 range depending on which capstan sleeve you
have fitted to the spindle.
Yup - I have an AKAI upright unit here. 3 head units are nice things
:&) My AKAI only does 3 3/4 and 7 1/2, but I did have a unit that did 1
7/8 too. Never had a high enough quality unit to do 15 ips :&)
Anyway - we deviate from the topic :&)
I am not sure that ancient analogue tape recorders are
on-topic :-)
Hey - remember they used to be used to store programs before we got
disks! :&) While it is possible to use such machines to store
programs from most
home computers, I don't think many people did. Somebody actually told me
the IBM PC 'cassette port' wouldn't work with a reel-to-reel tape
recorder, but never gave a sensible reason why not (and FWIW, I don't
believe it won't work).
I think I did it once or twice with my spectrum when I couldn't find any
spare tapes to save my stuff on - you could fir an awful lot on a 7" reel
:&)
I don't see why it wouldn't work either, cause you've got the same line
input circuitry in both.
I should dig out some of my older kit just to play :&)
-- Matt
---
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5 Sep
5 Sep
12:05 p.m.
A friend of mine tells of a friend of his who's
HDD was a little noisy
when doings seeks - so he used to play tunes with that.
There is actually an entire music package system for the C64's disk drives
that plays music by smacking the drive heads around. You can even compose
much with it. Natch, this works poorly on emulators. ;-)
--
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser(a)stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- When you're in love, the whole world is German! -- "Hogan's Heroes"
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