12 Dec
2004
12 Dec
'04
5:57 a.m.
CNN has a magazine style show called NEXT@CNN that has a gaming theme
this week. Included is, of course, a discussion of vintage gaming and
what the kids today think of the old stuff.
It's funny to see the old Atari X-Wing run side-by-side with the modern
version.
About 20 minutes into the show is a "bump" for the 30th anniversary of
the Altair computer featuring a machine from my collection including a
shot from this year's VCF!
Erik Klein
www.vintage-computer.com
www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum
The Vintage Computer Forum
12 Dec
12 Dec
7:32 a.m.
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004, Erik S. Klein wrote:
About 20 minutes into the show is a "bump"
for the 30th anniversary of
the Altair computer featuring a machine from my collection including a
shot from this year's VCF!
No one ever asked my permission to use a shot from the VCF.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
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8:41 a.m.
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004, Eric Smith wrote:
Sellam wrote:
I don't know, but if they are I'm going to make a real big deal of it,
being that it's CNN.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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No one ever asked my permission to use a shot
from the VCF.
Are they required to?
8:59 a.m.
Well, considering I took the picture and it was of my machine AND you
couldn't tell that it's a VCF picture without my admitting to it I'm not
sure you'd be able to make TOO big a deal, but I am sure it would be fun
either way! ;)
Which reminds me, I have to finish my VCF7 page sometime soon. I'm only
about halfway through descriptions on the 100+ shots I took! :(
Erik Klein
www.vintage-computer.com
www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum
The Vintage Computer Forum
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces(a)classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer
Festival
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 2:41 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: NEXT@CNN
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004, Eric Smith wrote:
Sellam wrote:
I don't know, but if they are I'm going to make a real big deal of it,
being that it's CNN.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
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Computers ]
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http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
No one ever asked my permission to use a shot
from the VCF.
Are they required to?
9:46 a.m.
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004, Erik S. Klein wrote:
Well, considering I took the picture and it was of my
machine AND you
couldn't tell that it's a VCF picture without my admitting to it I'm not
sure you'd be able to make TOO big a deal, but I am sure it would be fun
either way! ;)
Well, based on what I know about this sort of issue (and I might be wrong)
if it's used in the context of news coverage then of course there's no
issue. But if they are using this as part of their program then that's a
copyright issue. I suppose it could be considered "fair use" in this
case, but then the courtesy of asking for permission would apply in my
book. I'm going to ask someone who knows.
I still have to see the piece to see exactly how it was used. I
presumably recorded it for later viewing. Like I said, if it wasn't CNN I
wouldn't care ;)
Which reminds me, I have to finish my VCF7 page
sometime soon. I'm only
about halfway through descriptions on the 100+ shots I took! :(
Me too :)
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
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7 p.m.
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
I think you're being awfully generous to a monstrous
profit-making corporation. While it might be hard to enforce,
you have copyright to your works.
Well, based on what I know about this sort of issue
(and I might be wrong)
if it's used in the context of news coverage then of course there's no
issue.
Not true. Besides the fact that "news" is more or less
entertainment these days, they still need permission to use
it. If their budget is $0 then they wouldn't use it. Since they
already DID use it, you can readily make up a reasonable value,
say $500, for the use of the photo.
Consider they sell ad time in the 100K$/min to $1M/min on both
sides of your photo. This ain't 1964 and that wasn't Walter
F-ing Cronkite, instead some drone/lackey making their owners
money with your work.
I bet you can find someone who sells stock images, footage,
photo library to that industry to get a sense of how it works
and what you practical recourse is.
13 Dec
13 Dec
12:07 a.m.
At 03:00 AM 12/13/2004, Tom Jennings wrote:
Doesn't Sellam have some sort of bouncers to watch for news organizations
at the door, and some sort of boilerplate permission / release paperwork
for them? I've been to many conferences / trade shows as press, where
the show management were quite picky about cameras and camcorders.
In lieu of such paperwork, can't they assume this was an exhibition
open to the public?
- John
Well, based on
what I know about this sort of issue (and I might be wrong)
if it's used in the context of news coverage then of course there's no
issue.
Not true. Besides the fact that "news" is more or less
entertainment these days, they still need permission to use
it.
1:53 a.m.
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004, John Foust wrote:
At 03:00 AM 12/13/2004, Tom Jennings wrote:
Doesn't Sellam have some sort of bouncers to watch for news organizations
at the door, and some sort of boilerplate permission / release paperwork
for them? I've been to many conferences / trade shows as press, where
the show management were quite picky about cameras and camcorders.
I'm not that picky. I assume people walking around with cameras are
taking photos or video for their own private use.
Well,
based on what I know about this sort of issue (and I might be wrong)
if it's used in the context of news coverage then of course there's no
issue.
Not true. Besides the fact that "news" is more or less
entertainment these days, they still need permission to use
it. In lieu of such paperwork, can't they assume this
was an exhibition
open to the public?
That's what I'm wondering. Still, common courtesy would dictate that they
ask permission up front.
My VCR didn't record the program for some odd reason. Now I'll have to
try to track down a copy of the program somehow.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
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2:44 a.m.
>> they still need permission to use it.
BULLSHIT. I'm an actual, living, breathing, working reporter, and when I go to
a convention or any other event, I write about and takes pictures of anything I
damn well please. The only paperwork or permission I need is called the First
Freaking Amendment.
Having said that, once in a while I'll work out a gentlemen's agreement,
whereby I agree NOT to report on something, in exchange for getting an
exclusive or scoop on something else.
If the news/video crew didn't announce themselves to the VCF event staff, that
is certainly discourteous and unprofessional -- it's not like they were
covering a fire and time prevented it. But more importantly, if a tiny event's
leaders tried telling ME or any other respectable journalist what I could or
couldn't do based on their permission, the appropriate response would be 'you
need me, I don't need you'. (The fact that VCF was held in a quasi-public
venue is another issue in the reporters' favor.)
If what they photographed was something like a trade secret, then in certain
cases they might seek Erik's permission, since he owned it.
- Evan
--- Vintage Computer Festival <vcf(a)siconic.com> wrote:
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004, John Foust wrote:
Doesn't Sellam have some sort of bouncers to watch for news organizations
at the door, and some sort of boilerplate permission / release paperwork
for them? I've been to many conferences / trade shows as press, where
the show management were quite picky about cameras and camcorders.
I'm not that picky. I assume people walking around with cameras are
taking photos or video for their own private use.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At 03:00 AM 12/13/2004, Tom Jennings wrote:
>> Well, based on what I know about this sort of issue (and I might be
wrong)
if it's used in the context of news coverage then
of course there's no
issue.
Not true. Besides the fact that "news" is more or less
entertainment these days, they still need permission to use
it. In lieu of such paperwork, can't they assume
this was an exhibition
open to the public?
That's what I'm wondering. Still, common courtesy would dictate that they
ask permission up front.
My VCR didn't record the program for some odd reason. Now I'll have to
try to track down a copy of the program somehow.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
Festival
International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers
]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org
]
=====
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3:05 a.m.
On Mon, 2004-12-13 at 08:44 -0800, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote:
I'm surprised that permission isn't needed to show any footage that
contains a name / logo or other identifying mark though, but that images
which could technically have been made anywhere are fair game and
subject to no restrictions.
And even then there must be a lot of slack in any law; if a crew's
shooting a city scene say, then they can't really go asking every single
shop which displays a sign and it'd seem unreasonable to expect them to.
In this case Ed said he himself took the image, so allowed use by CNN
was implicit, and as there was no way of identifying that it was the VCF
no other checks were necessary.
I'm not a lawyer, and different countries must have all sorts of rules
and regulations, but that seems like the common-sense approach to me!
cheers
Jules
>> they
still need permission to use it.
BULLSHIT. I'm an actual, living, breathing, working reporter, and when I go to
a convention or any other event, I write about and takes pictures of anything I
damn well please. The only paperwork or permission I need is called the First
Freaking Amendment.
3:24 a.m.
Well, most events will issue press credentials, which are by application only,
and the event planners can DENY credentials to anyone. So if you're CNN and
the VCF declines to give you a press admittance, you could still enter as a
member of the public, but presumably VCF would have been smart enough to have
some fine print stating that members of the publics' photos cannot be used for
commercial gain, in which case CNN would be illegally using its show admittance
ticket.
However, experienced reporters know that you only deal with stuff like
credentials if the event planners insist on it. We want as little interference
in doing our jobs as possible. If I can just show up at an event and do my
job, then I will; I'm not going to voluntarily tell the event folks "gee,
shouldn't you issue me a special pass, which you can later use to get in my
way?".
Think about it -- do building contractors suggest that town inspectors come
harass them; do chefs demand sanitation inspections? No, they just deal with
them as a necessary evil. Supreme Court decisions in this country thankfully
disallow prior restraint from the government, let alone from private companies.
--- Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
On Mon, 2004-12-13 at 08:44 -0800, Computer Collector
Newsletter wrote:
go
to
=====
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>>
they still need permission to use it.
BULLSHIT. I'm an actual, living, breathing, working reporter, and when I a convention or any other event, I write about
and takes pictures of
anything I
damn well please. The only paperwork or
permission I need is called the
First
Freaking Amendment.
I'm surprised that permission isn't needed to show any footage that
contains a name / logo or other identifying mark though, but that images
which could technically have been made anywhere are fair game and
subject to no restrictions.
And even then there must be a lot of slack in any law; if a crew's
shooting a city scene say, then they can't really go asking every single
shop which displays a sign and it'd seem unreasonable to expect them to.
In this case Ed said he himself took the image, so allowed use by CNN
was implicit, and as there was no way of identifying that it was the VCF
no other checks were necessary.
I'm not a lawyer, and different countries must have all sorts of rules
and regulations, but that seems like the common-sense approach to me!
cheers
Jules
3:47 a.m.
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote:
Well, most events will issue press credentials, which
are by application
only, and the event planners can DENY credentials to anyone. So if
you're CNN and the VCF declines to give you a press admittance, you
could still enter as a member of the public, but presumably VCF would
have been smart enough to have some fine print stating that members of
the publics' photos cannot be used for commercial gain, in which case
CNN would be illegally using its show admittance ticket.
Again, this comes down to whether they were using the photo as content for
their show, as opposed to doing press coverage. From what I've heard so
far, it doesn't sound like it fell under press coverage.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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6:14 a.m.
That's not true, if it's on CNN, it's considered press coverage.
--- Vintage Computer Festival <vcf(a)siconic.com> wrote:
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004, Computer Collector Newsletter
wrote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, most events will issue press credentials,
which are by application
only, and the event planners can DENY credentials to anyone. So if
you're CNN and the VCF declines to give you a press admittance, you
could still enter as a member of the public, but presumably VCF would
have been smart enough to have some fine print stating that members of
the publics' photos cannot be used for commercial gain, in which case
CNN would be illegally using its show admittance ticket.
Again, this comes down to whether they were using the photo as content for
their show, as opposed to doing press coverage. From what I've heard so
far, it doesn't sound like it fell under press coverage.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
Festival
International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers
]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org
]
=====
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-- Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us
-- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all
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Contact us at news(a)computercollector.com
600 readers and counting!
8:25 a.m.
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004, evan wrote:
That's not true, if it's on CNN, it's
considered press coverage.
Bullshit. CNN is entertainment pure and simple. Sure they call
themselves "news" and "News" is their middle name but what they report
is
pure mind-numbing drivel.
I'd rather watch four foul-mouthed little 4th graders and a piece of human
poo that hops around all over the screen. As a matter of fact, I do!
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
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8:40 a.m.
I loathe getting too off-topic, so Sellam, see my private flame in your inbox.
--- Vintage Computer Festival <vcf(a)siconic.com> wrote:
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004, evan wrote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's not true, if it's on CNN, it's
considered press coverage.
Bullshit. CNN is entertainment pure and simple. Sure they call
themselves "news" and "News" is their middle name but what they
report is
pure mind-numbing drivel.
I'd rather watch four foul-mouthed little 4th graders and a piece of human
poo that hops around all over the screen. As a matter of fact, I do!
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
Festival
International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers
]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org
]
=====
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-- Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us
-- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all
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Contact us at news(a)computercollector.com
600 readers and counting!
5:35 a.m.
Supreme Court decisions in this country [presumably
the USA]
thankfully disallow prior restraint from the government, let alone
from private companies.
This reveals an apparent misconception. Restraints on government are
often (I'd almost say "usually") more severe, not less so, than on
other entities like individuals and private corporations. (This is
because government is in a position of much more abusable power. Or at
least that's the theory; how true it remains in today's system is
arguable.)
For example, the USA government is forbidden most forms of censorship,
but private entities are not; a newspaper is perfectly free to censor -
to not print - any story, letter, or whatever that it cares to, for any
reason it pleases. (There are exceptions, but they are fairly narrow,
and from what I understand do not apply to individual cases, only to
patterns of behaviour.)
/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse(a)rodents.montreal.qc.ca
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
6:39 a.m.
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004, der Mouse wrote:
This reveals an apparent misconception. Restraints on
government are
often (I'd almost say "usually") more severe, not less so, than on
other entities like individuals and private corporations. (This is
because government is in a position of much more abusable power. Or at
least that's the theory; how true it remains in today's system is
arguable.)
(The extraordinary, planetary-scale, historically-recent power
of corporations wasn't forseen obviously. It will probably take
as long to recognize and implement "separation of business and
state" as it did 'church and state'. Oh woe is us.)
For example, the USA government is forbidden most
forms of censorship,
but private entities are not; a newspaper is perfectly free to censor -
to not print - any story, letter, or whatever that it cares to, for any
reason it pleases. (There are exceptions, but they are fairly narrow,
and from what I understand do not apply to individual cases, only to
patterns of behaviour.)
Why is it so often non-US citizens understand the US legal
system more than American citizens? It's sad, deplorable, etc
(hand-wave as obvious).
6:52 a.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Jennings" <tomj(a)wps.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: NEXT@CNN
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004, der Mouse wrote:
The founding fathers also never realized the federal government would become
as powerful as it is today (states were much more powerful under the
confederation then today's government). You can go back to the beginning of
civilization and you will find the people with the cash always run the
government either directly (holding office or being King) or indirectly
(putting their own people in office), so Corporations in 2004 are no
different in this regard then the top 5% of landowners in 1776.
This reveals an apparent misconception.
Restraints on government are
often (I'd almost say "usually") more severe, not less so, than on
other entities like individuals and private corporations. (This is
because government is in a position of much more abusable power. Or at
least that's the theory; how true it remains in today's system is
arguable.)
(The extraordinary, planetary-scale, historically-recent power
of corporations wasn't forseen obviously. It will probably take
as long to recognize and implement "separation of business and
state" as it did 'church and state'. Oh woe is us.)
5:17 a.m.
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote:
BULLSHIT. I'm an actual, living, breathing,
working reporter, and when I go to
a convention or any other event, I write about and takes pictures of anything I
damn well please. The only paperwork or permission I need is called the First
Freaking Amendment.
ABSO-DIDDLY-UTELY. For some reason I was assuming that photos
that Sellam himself took were used (apparently he did not state
that, but I inferred it from his wording or my hallucination.)
As Emily Latella says, "NEVER MIND!"
6:17 a.m.
>>> ABSO-DIDDLY-UTELY.
I'm glad you agree.
I agree with Erik's other reply too: anything that pisses off Sellam is highly
entertaining.
Hope I didn't just get banned from the next show. :)
--- Tom Jennings <tomj(a)wps.com> wrote:
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004, Computer Collector Newsletter
wrote:
=====
Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter!
-- It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address
-- Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us
-- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all
Visit our web site for lots of extra content: http://news.computercollector.com
Contact us at news(a)computercollector.com
600 readers and counting!
BULLSHIT. I'm an actual, living, breathing,
working reporter, and when I
go to
a convention or any other event, I write about
and takes pictures of
anything I
damn well please. The only paperwork or
permission I need is called the
First
Freaking Amendment.
ABSO-DIDDLY-UTELY. For some reason I was assuming that photos
that Sellam himself took were used (apparently he did not state
that, but I inferred it from his wording or my hallucination.)
As Emily Latella says, "NEVER MIND!"
4:56 a.m.
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004, John Foust wrote:
Doesn't Sellam have some sort of bouncers to watch
for news organizations
at the door, and some sort of boilerplate permission / release paperwork
for them? I've been to many conferences / trade shows as press, where
the show management were quite picky about cameras and camcorders.
In lieu of such paperwork, can't they assume this was an exhibition
open to the public?
I may have made a dumb assumption -- that CNN used one of
Sellam's photos, from his website. If they came and took
their own photos (or equiv process) then almost certainly it's
uncontrollable after the fact.
5:38 a.m.
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004, Tom Jennings wrote:
I may have made a dumb assumption -- that CNN used one of
Sellam's photos, from his website. If they came and took
their own photos (or equiv process) then almost certainly it's
uncontrollable after the fact.
The picture in question can be seen at
http://www.vintage-computer.com/images/vcf7/mydisplay3.jpg and is a
picture of one of my Altair 8800s.
The image actually shown on the show was cropped all the way in to the
Altair and its drive with the only evidence that it was a VCF picture (to
me, anyway) being the plexiglass case cover. I had those covers made for
this year's VCF. Nobody else on the planet would have known where that
picture was taken had I not identified it myself.
This image was used, in conjunction with two "studio" images I took of the
same machine, for about 15 seconds in the middle of the show. All of the
images had text superimposed on them that told about the introduction of
the Altair 30 years ago and about a couple of undergrads who started some
company to make software for it.
All of the pictures were were taken by me (I hold the copyright, for
whatever that's worth) and all appear on my website. The show's producer
simply asked for higher resolution copies for the NEXT@CNN spot. She was
given these with my permission to use them on the show.
I'm not sure what Sellam's beef is, but as I said earlier it's probably
good for some fun either way.
I'm also not sure why Sellam hates CNN that much but there's probably a
fun story there too.
Clear as mud now, eh? :)
--
Erik Klein
www.vintage-computer.com
www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum
The Vintage Computer Forum
6:16 a.m.
Erik Klein wrote:
The image actually shown on the show was cropped all
the way in to the
Altair and its drive with the only evidence that it was a VCF picture (to
me, anyway) being the plexiglass case cover. I had those covers made for
this year's VCF. Nobody else on the planet would have known where that
picture was taken had I not identified it myself.
That's why I was confused. I thought there was an objection to CNN using
a photo they'd taken themselves, for which they would own the copyright.
(For instance, if you pay a professional to photograph your wedding, the
photographer holds the copyright unless you negotiate a contract stating
otherwise.)
Given that they vigorously protect their own copyrights, I'm surprised
that they would steal someone else's. Maybe they were (incorrectly)
confident that noone would notice.
Eric
6:34 a.m.
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004, Erik Klein wrote:
All of the pictures were were taken by me (I hold the
copyright, for
whatever that's worth) and all appear on my website. The show's producer
simply asked for higher resolution copies for the NEXT@CNN spot. She was
given these with my permission to use them on the show.
I missed that little tiny detail!!
Clear as mud now, eh? :)
Ayup! :-)
8:22 a.m.
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004, Erik Klein wrote:
I'm not sure what Sellam's beef is, but as I
said earlier it's probably
good for some fun either way.
Ah, there's nothing there. Shucks.
I'm also not sure why Sellam hates CNN that much
but there's probably a
fun story there too.
You mean besides the fact that they're a joke just like every other cable
"news" broadcaster?
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
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3:40 a.m.
Erik S. Klein <classiccmp(a)vintage-computer.com> wrote:
Well, considering I took the picture and it was of my
machine AND you
couldn't tell that it's a VCF picture without my admitting to it I'm not
sure you'd be able to make TOO big a deal, but I am sure it would be fun
either way! ;)
I saw that show, and I also saw your name in the credits.
--
tim lindner
tlindner(a)ix.netcom.com
12 Dec
12 Dec
6:52 p.m.
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
It's a copyrighted work! $$$! Scumbags.
Sellam wrote:
I don't know, but if they are I'm going to make a real big deal of it,
being that it's CNN. No one ever asked my permission to use a shot
from the VCF.
Are they required to?
7314
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7315
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27 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
classiccmp＠vintage-computer.com -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
evan947＠yahoo.com -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
julesrichardsonuk＠yahoo.co.uk -
mouse＠Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA -
news＠computercollector.com -
teoz＠neo.rr.com -
tlindner＠ix.netcom.com -
tomj＠wps.com -
vcf＠siconic.com