27 Jun
2000
27 Jun
'00
9:15 a.m.
On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:48:53 -0700 Marvin <marvin(a)rain.org> writes:
Isn't it also odd how the people with these
"deep pockets" also seem
to get
a lot accomplished? You might want to look at that correlation and
see what
it means.
Okay, if you want to take that tack on the subject, let's go:
So you're saying that only the rich and powerful are *worthy* of
a such as noble endeavor such as ours?
So your saying: "Sorry, if you can't pay, you don't deserve to play".
What a crock of shit. Accomplish what!?! All it means to me is,
is that some guys can delude themselves into thinking that if they
pour money into something, they can call it a hobby. They haven't
go it. The only way to really appreciate what we do here (well,
what *I* do anyway) is to get your "hands dirty" with this stuff.
Maybe you can pay someone to do the work for you, but you're
kidding yourself.
See comment #1. Those "priviledged few" are
generally the people
that get
things done and manage their resources wisely. Personally, I would
not want
someone without the ability to manage having any control over my
collection.
Oh, okay, so you're saying that if we can't pay the increasing
cost of admission, we're deadbeats, is that it?!?! Try to tell
that to the retired folks who have fixed incomes. Try to tell
that to schoolkids who now equate computer=Wintel, and don't
know that something existed before. Yeah, we're going to pass
this all on, right? Yeah, when we're all dead, and there no
one around to tell the story . . .
Now as a matter of fact, I don't give a rat's ass about your
collection. What you do with it is *your* business. What I *do*
care about though, are the poor stiffs who would like to pursue
computing as a hobby, but will instead have to find something
else to do, because the prices are out of sight.
Jeff
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
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Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
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27 Jun
27 Jun
9:46 a.m.
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12:34 p.m.
New subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo
At 07:46 PM 6/27/00 +0100, Tony wrote:
I've seen it said (in print) several times that
various hobbies were
ruined when the rich got involved and simply started pouring money in.
Sounds a bit like the joke, "What that place? Nobody goes there anymore,
its too crowded!"
--Chuck
12:55 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
I could read this statement as an incredibly arrogant one. The implication
is that if one has money to pour into a hobby that they are unwilling or
unable to pick the machines apart or derive pleasure from the same activities
that you do. I unfamiliar with any evidence to support such a supposition,
nor the implication that the poor hacker is inherently more capable.
You seem to believe that the two communities are mutually exclusive.
They're not.
If in fact it truly requires specialized equipment and this hacker
can demonstrate that it doesn't, I'm at a loss to understand why said
hacker is unemployed save by choice.
The more things change the more they stay the same. Contemporary
synthesis tools are useless for speeds much above 300MHz, so we're back
to building custom blocks out of transistors with precharge. Does every
designer understand this stuff? No. Does every designer need to? No.
Does everyone need to know about paper tape, punch cards and chipstore? No.
Will this knowledge vanish if all us hobby types fell off the planet? No,
unless we've started burning books again and I didn't get the memo.
I've seen it said (in print) several times that
various hobbies were
ruined when the rich got involved and simply started pouring money in.
For some value of "ruined". I somehow doubt that the people who were
dumping money in perceived it as a ruining proposition.
And I don't want classic computing to go the same
way.
I doubt anyone wants the hobby "ruined", but if the influx of money
is synonymous with "ruined" then it's utterly unclear that there's
anything that you can do or say to affect the situation.
go it. The
only way to really appreciate what we do here (well,
what *I* do anyway) is to get your "hands dirty" with this stuff.
Yep!. At least for me there's no interest at all in having a shelf of
perfectly working old computers and paying a person to look after them
and run them for me. I want to get inside the machines myself. I want to
stare at 'scope screens and assembly listings. I want to fix the darn
thing and enjoy the experience of it working again for the first time in
perhaps 10 years or more.
Maybe you can pay someone to do the work for you, but you're
kidding yourself.
Only one slight problem. If you price the true enthusiasts out of the
hobby then who are you going to get to fix the machines. The person who wasn't rich enough to afford a
service contract is the
person who learnt to fix the machine himself. And who can fix similar
machines now if only he works on them for a few months.
The person who couldn't afford the ready-written commercial software is
the person who wrote his own. And who can still program in the languages
used by classic computers.
Ah, maybe I'm getting it. The premise is that people with money have
always had money and thus would never have learned these skills? This
doesn't seem to admit the possibility of people having acquired their
money because they *have* these very skills. YMMV, and I have a sense
that perhaps it did.
[snip]
Oh, okay, so
you're saying that if we can't pay the increasing
cost of admission, we're deadbeats, is that it?!?! Try to tell
Seems like it :-(
that to the retired folks who have fixed incomes.
Try to tell
Try telling it to the unemployed hardware hacker who's figured out how to
fix things that the manufacturer claimed could only be repaired at their
factory with special equipment. that to
schoolkids who now equate computer=Wintel, and don't
14 years ago I realised that unless something was done than all sorts of
computers, many quite common, and operating practices, were going to be
lost for ever. I met programmers who had no idea how data could be stored
as holes in a strip of paper. Electronic designers who thought there was
something magic about how a CPU worked and that it was more than just a
collection of gates and flip-flops. And you're trying to tell me that because I'm
not rich I did the wrong
thing? Get real!
That was hardly what Marvin was saying.
More people have discovered this hobby, which increases demand. Increased
demand increase prices *in markets where cash is exchanged*. There's
more than one way to make a market in this stuff, and there are still
ample opportunities to haul off stuff for free. Personally, I'm
thrilled that I can haul off the stuff that I care about for a tiny
fraction of what it would have cost me just ten years ago.
I'm stuck with the unpleasant feeling that some people are bitching
because they've discovered that their private hobby isn't private,
that other people have more cash than they do, and that as a consequence
they can no longer pick stuff up for fire sale prices the way that
they used to. That's tough, but it's nothing more than basic economics.
As for ePay -- all it really does is make the market more
efficient. If somebody wants to pay $700 for a TRS80 that's his
choice -- but if a small army of people want to pay that much then
there's not much to do but accept that as a reasonable price for
same. Whining about it won't make it go away.
--
Chris Kennedy
chris(a)mainecoon.com
http://www.mainecoon.com
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
2:30 p.m.
New subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was:
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3:46 p.m.
New subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was:
Tony Duell wrote:
Fair enough :-)
[snip]
That was kinda my point, but my argument was flawed from a societal
standpoint. Someone with the mental horsepower not to be put off
by such silly warnings would generally have all sorts of options open
to them in the Valley.
Yes, but not repairing 60's calculators or fabricating parts for 8"
drives. My point is that someone who can perform the level of analysis
and engineering required to do these things is a *real* engineer, as
opposed to the people who are because they've got a piece of paper that
says so.
I certainly agree with the latter -- the ability to do effective design
isn't found in a book, but rather in experience. Nothing scares me more
than walking into a CPU lab and finding a copy of one of Patterson's books
on every engineer's desk as if it were a bible.
Chris
--
Chris Kennedy
chris(a)mainecoon.com
http://www.mainecoon.com
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
I could read
this statement as an incredibly arrogant one. The implication
That was not my intention. This may vary in different countries, but certainly in
the UK,
engineers/physicists/mathematical programmers/electronics designers, etc
are not, in general, well paid. There are exceptions, of course, but I
would think that people who were the most clueful at repairing old
computers would often have a lower salary than some other groups of
people.
You're absolutly right; I forgot that my corner of the world isn't
the *only* corner of the world, and I'll be the first to admit that
in my little corner salaries are utterly whacked in comparison with
skill sets -- but not universally so.
In my case I've on collecting those machines that I worked
with growing up (although the PR1MEs are an exception to that rule).
As a consequence of the things that I learned working with those
machines I have a comparatively successful career which allows me
the luxury of throwing money at my hobby -- although that usual
translates as paying somebody a chunk of change to haul something
hundreds or thousands of miles as opposed to actually purchasing
the stuff.
[snip]
Well, certainly over here, being good at
electronics/engineering/etc is
_not_ a way to get a well-paid job :-(
As I said, head space on my part. Over here being *good* isn't even a
requirement -- all you need is the ability to spell "engineer".
If in fact it
truly requires specialized equipment and this hacker
One of the first things I learnt when I started collecting was to never
believe the 'trained engineers only' warnings, and certainly not to
believe something couldn't be repaired just because the manual said it
couldn't ;-) can
demonstrate that it doesn't, I'm at a loss to understand why said
hacker is unemployed save by choice.
You are implying that there are jobs for people who can fix 1960's
calculators with homemade special tools? Or who can make parts for 8"
disk drives themselves? Where???
At any given time there's usually between 17K and 22K unfilled engineering
positions in the valley. Even factoring out all the support and grunt
positions my guess is that there are more than just a few staff engineering
(or above) positions that could benefit from the skills we're talking about
here.
[snip]
Nobody is saying that _everyone_ has to understand
this. Just that some
people should be aware that it once existed, and could possibly be useful
again.
No argument there. Far too many things get re-invented because
people have no knowlege of prior art -- but it could be argued that
we're describing the need for senior staff positions (which are
*very* hard to find -- everyone wants you to be a VP instead) and
better education. The latter in particular; maybe it's just me,
but it seems like most newly minted master's I see these days
are barely qualified to operate the coffee maker.
[snip]
Will this
knowledge vanish if all us hobby types fell off the planet? No,
unless we've started burning books again and I didn't get the memo.
A lot of things are _not_ documented in books. There is a big difference
(IMHO) between the idealised CPUs that you find in text books and actual,
real world ones. And those differences are the interesting part IMHO.
Anyone can design a CPU, but can you define an 'efficient' one (where
efficiency can mean a lot of different things). 
8:40 p.m.
New subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was:
On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote:
Tony, I've got to get this off my chest. I've seen you time and time
again whine about not being able to get a job with your skills. In the
past I've talked to you privately about how easy it would be for someone
with your incredible skill and knowledge to get a very well-paying job
just about any damn place he chooses, but you come up with all sorts of
reasons why you can't. The only conclusion I can come to is that you
don't want a job.
The blind, deaf or crippled would kill for your skills. What's your
excuse?
If you're looking for sympathy from anyone here, you're not going to get
it. Write a resume, make some copies, send it out and stop complaining.
The recognition you want and deserve is out in the world, not here on this
list while you sit cramped up behind a computer screen.
Stop being selfish and contribute your talents to society (other than what
you contribute so graciously to this list).
Sorry to air this publicly, but I think what you need is a good kick in
the ass.
Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...
VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
See http://www.vintage.org for details!
can
demonstrate that it doesn't, I'm at a loss to understand why said
hacker is unemployed save by choice.
You are implying that there are jobs for people who can fix 1960's
calculators with homemade special tools? Or who can make parts for 8"
disk drives themselves? Where???
10:15 a.m.
New subject: The cost of collecting debate
Recently Jeff and Marvin have been debating the collecting cost issue
again. This was one of Jeff's salvos:
What I *do*
care about though, are the poor stiffs who would like to pursue
computing as a hobby, but will instead have to find something
else to do, because the prices are out of sight.
This is both true and a fiction at the same time. If you want to pursue
computer collecting as a hobby there are many underrepresented areas that
are still cheap. For example, PC/AT class computers. (aka 80286 based
machines).
These typically sell for in the $1 - $15 range at most places, they are
also available for free in quite a few places.
You can approach this particular class of machine as the point where
computers ceased being glorified "toys" and actually started being able to
do real work. If the IBM PC made it "acceptable" for mainstream business to
give its employees one computer each, it was the PC/AT that cemented this
relationship and made it possible to do work.
This was the "start" of the "Millions of standards" bifurcation in the
computer industry, as up to this point computers were "99%" PC compatible
because everything was the same on them. PC/AT introduced us to an I/O slot
that could support a larger memory map and that lead to a host of new video
controllers (several examples could be collected from the "famous" ones
like the Orchid series and Hercules series, to the "infamous" ones.) Analog
monitors came about to support these cards and the very first "multisync"
monitor was introduced. [it impressed the heck out of me, even if it did
make big clicking noises as it tryed to swap in different components.]
There is research to be done, knowledge to recover, and artifacts to
collect. All at very low prices.
Then there is the understanding of Computation, as Richard Feynman and
others understood it, things like the Babbage difference engine and the
Eniac. Often you can re-create this sort of thing from scratch as a hobby
for less than it would cost to acquire an original artifact. People still
by Digi-Comp 1's at Garage Sales for $1 even when they go for >$300 on Ebay
and elsewhere. You can make your own Digi-Comp 1 out of plastic from plans
on the Net for about $50.
Now there are "Investment Grade" Computers
Ok, so the segment of the population that spends its disposable income on
antique trinkets has come to appreciate "old" computers. As is typical in
this type of scenario some machines become desirable because they are well
recognized while others remain anonymous. If you want one of those machines
then you are now going to have to compete with this group of people to
acquire one. New ones aren't being made (except for IMSAI's :-) so the
supply is fixed/dwindling. You can compete with your feet by tracking nice
pieces down (this is essentially what Antique Dealers have done forever)
or with your wallet. You can complain about how your feet are tired and
your wallet is empty, but it won't change anything.
--Chuck
10:53 a.m.
New subject: The cost of collecting debate
On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Chuck McManis wrote:
Recently Jeff and Marvin have been debating the
collecting cost issue
again. This was one of Jeff's salvos:
Other ideas:
* create an archive of software...you can find disks for all types of
computers at thrift stores and flea markets; generally a buck or less a
piece; a software archive is a very important element in this hobby,
since not many people seem to be archiving software on a large scale
* create a classic computer book library...you can find them in hoards at
thrift stores, library book sales, and of course used book stores
(although used book store prices tend to be a little high usually); such
a library will be an indespensible resource for your local computer
collector community; don't forget computer manuals and software manuals
as well
* create an ephemera archive: t-shirts, buttons, posters, etc; this would
basically be a material culture archive, which may bring you big bucks
later on when a researcher or someone writing a book wants to borrow
your collection to get some photos
All of these things can still be found cheaply and will probably remain so
since they are not as glamourous as the machines themselves (although I
would argue that software and manuals are MORE important than the
machines).
What I *do*
care about though, are the poor stiffs who would like to pursue
computing as a hobby, but will instead have to find something
else to do, because the prices are out of sight.
This is both true and a fiction at the same time. If you want to pursue
computer collecting as a hobby there are many underrepresented areas that
are still cheap. For example, PC/AT class computers. (aka 80286 based
machines).
These typically sell for in the $1 - $15 range at most places, they are
also available for free in quite a few places. You can complain about how your feet are tired and
your wallet is empty, but it won't change anything.
I like that :)
Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...
VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
See http://www.vintage.org for details!
12:50 p.m.
New subject: The cost of collecting debate
Sellam wrote:
All of these things can still be found cheaply and
will probably remain so
since they are not as glamourous as the machines themselves (although I
would argue that software and manuals are MORE important than the
machines).
The Software and Manuals ARE the most important! Without those two items a
system is nothing but a lifeless hunk of metal, silicon, and plastic. It
took me almost a year after getting my first PDP-11 before I could actually
do anything with it. Why? Because I needed manuals and software.
This is probably why about the only thing I'm still collecting is
Documentation.
Zane
2:16 p.m.
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6:12 p.m.
New subject: The cost of collecting debate
On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote:
But you're forgetting one important fact. We (or
at least I) collect and
restore classic computers because we _enjoy_ them. I have no interest
whatsoever in collecting t-shirts, posters, etc. You can't clip a logic
analyser onto a poster.
I agree; I'm not interetsted in marketing rubbish pertaining to
computers; such things do not contribute to my enjoyment of classic
computers.
As I've said many times before, I am interested in
computers _because
they're electronic circuits_. They're something to attack with logic
analysers and 'scopes. Not something to sit of the shelf. Not something
to 'preserve'. Something to investigate.
Well said!
--
R. D. Davis
rdd(a)perqlogic.com
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd
410-744-4900
28 Jun
28 Jun
10:06 a.m.
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27 Jun
27 Jun
7:05 p.m.
New subject: The cost of collecting debate
Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words:
[snip]
You can't clip a logic analyser onto a poster.
Sure you can! However, I can pretty much guarantee you'll end up with a
"logic 0" every time... ;-)
And while I collect books (boy, do I collect books), I
have little
interest in yet another 'learn Commodore 64 BASIC' (or similar) book.
Technical manuals, sure -- I buy just about any that I come across.
Databooks, ditto. But not 3rd party user manuals.
On that we certainly agree.
And when you've seen the insides of one 286 PC/AT
clone you've pretty
much seen them all.
Hear, Hear! I *refuse* to collect IBM PC's of any type (well, *damn near*
any type -- I might take in a Tandy 2000, but that would be about it.)
Despite Micros~1's protestations, Win9x/ME==DOS==boring. In my town,
there's prolly 20 or fewer folks that could even figure out how to boot VMS
on my DEC, let alone log in... (installation did require some help from you
folks - and I thank you again for that). Most folks that are PeeCee based
are like "Howcomewhyfor nuthin' happens when I press F1?" It doesn't
occur
to most folks nowadays to try something new/different (read: the HELP
command). Now to get DECWindows up... so I can see the documentation on how
to get DECWindows up... I guess I'm feeling recursive tonite. ;-)
Honestly, I have no desire for an altair/imsai/apple 1, so as long as those
are "fashionable" and little else, I won't shed a tear over it. If,
however, the state of affordable collecting is reduced to '286's, I'll just
keep my 30 or so machines to myself and become a "compu-hermit." I'll want
no part of it anymore.
Re: the "amateur vs. professional" debate: To most folks nowadays, the term
"professional" means "you have a degree from a well-heeled university"
to
prove you actually know what you're doing (which in my eyes isn't proof at
all...). No Ph.D. == amateur. There is *no* degree in Classic Computing
History, so by this definition we're *all* amateurs...
Just my $0.00000002 (and that's what it's worth...)
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig.
If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead
disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.
28 Jun
28 Jun
10:18 a.m.
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27 Jun
27 Jun
8:42 p.m.
New subject: The cost of collecting debate
On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote:
But you're forgetting one important fact. We (or
at least I) collect and
restore classic computers because we _enjoy_ them. I have no interest
whatsoever in collecting t-shirts, posters, etc. You can't clip a logic
analyser onto a poster.
Sure, but someone else might. The idea is to propose alternative focii of
collecting that are equally important to the greater good in this hobby we
all share.
Which is why none of the above suggestions has any
interest at all _for me_.
Fine, leave all the extraneous books, posters, pins and t-shirts to
someone else ;)
Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...
VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
See http://www.vintage.org for details!
7:01 p.m.
New subject: The cost of collecting debate
Hello Sellam
On 27-Jun-00, you wrote:
Other ideas:
* create an archive of software...you can find disks for all types of
computers at thrift stores and flea markets; generally a buck or less a
piece; a software archive is a very important element in this hobby,
since not many people seem to be archiving software on a large scale
* create a classic computer book library...you can find them in hoards at
thrift stores, library book sales, and of course used book stores
(although used book store prices tend to be a little high usually); such
a library will be an indespensible resource for your local computer
collector community; don't forget computer manuals and software manuals
as well
* create an ephemera archive: t-shirts, buttons, posters, etc; this would
basically be a material culture archive, which may bring you big bucks
later on when a researcher or someone writing a book wants to borrow
your collection to get some photos
All of these things can still be found cheaply and will probably remain so
since they are not as glamourous as the machines themselves (although I
would argue that software and manuals are MORE important than the
machines).
I second that motion. I have a raft of books on my VIC-20 and c64 worth
their weight in gold, but do you think I could get anything at a garage sale
for them . . . hardly. Maybe ebay (laughter heard in the background).
I think therein lies an idea worh pursuing.
Regards
--
Gary Hildebrand
ghldbrd(a)ccp.com
You can complain about how your feet are tired
and
your wallet is empty, but it won't change anything.
I like that :)
Sellam 
11:52 a.m.
New subject: The cost of collecting debate
On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Chuck McManis wrote:
This is both true and a fiction at the same time. If you want to pursue
computer collecting as a hobby there are many underrepresented areas that
are still cheap. For example, PC/AT class computers. (aka 80286 based
machines).
Anything else? (I've stuck mostly with 8-bit machines from the
80's...Apples, Commodores, etc. and generally pay about $25 on
average per cpu..and, as far as I can tell, prices on these machines are
falling. (Often, though, I've gotten stuff like this for free, just
haul it away before it hits the trash can)
Of course, there are anomalies, like the $700 TRS-80 we discussed earlier.
(But that predates E-bay...check out some back issues of "Computer
Shopper" from the early 90's, and try to find all the Timex Sinclairs
someone was trying to foist off for $500+)
[...]
Now there are "Investment Grade" Computers
Ok, so the segment of the population that spends its disposable income on
antique trinkets has come to appreciate "old" computers. As is typical in
this type of scenario some machines become desirable because they are well
recognized while others remain anonymous.
Those are the usual suspects, Imsai, Altair, Apple I. But of course, there
are a number of less well known machines: the SWTPC, the single boards
like the KIM and AIM...
An aside: It's amazing, how some people over on E-bay, will add "Imsai
Altair" to descriptions of all these non-descript S-100 computer boxes and
parts. Of course, nobody is fooled, and the prices stay low. (Same with
collecting synthesizers. People will tack on "ARP Moog" to a description
of some no-name keyboard and expect the world to be impressed...
12:42 p.m.
New subject: The cost of collecting debate
"Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)" wrote:
An aside: It's amazing, how some people over on E-bay, will add "Imsai
Altair" to descriptions of all these non-descript S-100 computer boxes and
parts. Of course, nobody is fooled, and the prices stay low. (Same with
collecting synthesizers. People will tack on "ARP Moog" to a description
of some no-name keyboard and expect the world to be impressed...
It is not amazing that it happens, but it would be truly amazing if it did
not. Knowledgeable Ebay (and other such auctions) put what they consider to
be keywords in the description that will attract those people using the
search engine. Just common sense.
12:50 p.m.
New subject: The cost of collecting debate
It is not amazing that it happens, but it would be
truly amazing if it did
not. Knowledgeable Ebay (and other such auctions) put what they consider to
be keywords in the description that will attract those people using the
search engine. Just common sense.
Yes, simply because very few people actually browse categories anymore
because of the huge increase of new items. Searches are just about
essential.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
4:16 p.m.
New subject: The cost of collecting debate
The original TRS-80 Level 1, 4K, with monitor and cassette was $599. The
level 2 WAS $700, wasn't it?
I sold off the ones that I had for less than that, but they had numerous
after-market mods.
Hmmm. If you can successfully sell MOdel 1s for $700, that could finance
a serious collection
28 Jun
28 Jun
8:18 a.m.
New subject: The cost of collecting debate
GIVE THIS GUY A BREAK! He's recycling, doncha know? I see lots of computer
hardware in the dumpster, and that's not being recycled.
Why is a working computer nobody wants enough to pay for it better than a
box of parts they will pay for?
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: Chuck McManis <cmcmanis(a)mcmanis.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 1:15 PM
Subject: The cost of collecting debate
Recently Jeff and Marvin have been debating the
collecting cost issue
again. This was one of Jeff's salvos:
to
What I *do*
care about though, are the poor stiffs who would like to pursue
computing as a hobby, but will instead have to find something
else to do, because the prices are out of sight.
This is both true and a fiction at the same time. If you want to pursue
computer collecting as a hobby there are many underrepresented areas that
are still cheap. For example, PC/AT class computers. (aka 80286 based
machines).
These typically sell for in the $1 - $15 range at most places, they are
also available for free in quite a few places.
You can approach this particular class of machine as the point where
computers ceased being glorified "toys" and actually started being able to
do real work. If the IBM PC made it "acceptable" for mainstream business
give its employees one computer each, it was the PC/AT
that cemented this
relationship and made it possible to do work.
This was the "start" of the "Millions of standards" bifurcation in
the
computer industry, as up to this point computers were "99%" PC compatible
because everything was the same on them. PC/AT introduced us to an I/O
slot
that could support a larger memory map and that lead
to a host of new
video
controllers (several examples could be collected from
the "famous" ones
like the Orchid series and Hercules series, to the "infamous" ones.)
Analog
monitors came about to support these cards and the
very first "multisync"
monitor was introduced. [it impressed the heck out of me, even if it did
make big clicking noises as it tryed to swap in different components.]
There is research to be done, knowledge to recover, and artifacts to
collect. All at very low prices.
Then there is the understanding of Computation, as Richard Feynman and
others understood it, things like the Babbage difference engine and the
Eniac. Often you can re-create this sort of thing from scratch as a hobby
for less than it would cost to acquire an original artifact. People still
by Digi-Comp 1's at Garage Sales for $1 even when they go for >$300 on
Ebay
and elsewhere. You can make your own Digi-Comp 1 out
of plastic from plans
on the Net for about $50.
Now there are "Investment Grade" Computers
Ok, so the segment of the population that spends its disposable income on
antique trinkets has come to appreciate "old" computers. As is typical in
this type of scenario some machines become desirable because they are well
recognized while others remain anonymous. If you want one of those
machines
then you are now going to have to compete with this
group of people to
acquire one. New ones aren't being made (except for IMSAI's :-) so the
supply is fixed/dwindling. You can compete with your feet by tracking nice
pieces down (this is essentially what Antique Dealers have done forever)
or with your wallet. You can complain about how your feet are tired and
your wallet is empty, but it won't change anything.
--Chuck
27 Jun
27 Jun
11:53 a.m.
New subject: Price of our hobby, was Re: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association?
Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote:
See comment #1. What I am saying is that if someone can't manage the
resources they already have access to, then expecting others to subsidize
the lack of management skills is more than a bit naive.
On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:48:53 -0700 Marvin <marvin(a)rain.org> writes:
Oh come on, do we have to play the "I have to use small words so you will
understand" game? I hope not, but your "let's go" has nothing to do
with
what I said. "Worthy" is not the issue; getting something done *is* the
issue.
Isn't it also odd how the people with these
"deep pockets" also seem
to get
a lot accomplished? You might want to look at that correlation and
see what
it means.
Okay, if you want to take that tack on the subject, let's go:
So you're saying that only the rich and powerful are *worthy* of
a such as noble endeavor such as ours? So your saying: "Sorry, if you can't pay, you
don't deserve to play".
What a crock of shit. Accomplish what!?! All it means to me is,
is that some guys can delude themselves into thinking that if they
pour money into something, they can call it a hobby. They haven't
go it. The only way to really appreciate what we do here (well,
what *I* do anyway) is to get your "hands dirty" with this stuff.
Maybe you can pay someone to do the work for you, but you're
kidding yourself.
See comment #1; don't put words in my mouth. As far as "paying", there have
been *many* discussion on this list that most of this stuff is available
free or very close to free for anyone willing to do the research. And for a
few others, I also realize that where we live makes it easier or harder to
acquire this stuff. Your statement about appreciation can be turned around
to say that you cannot appreciate what it takes to make *and keep* money;
both your and my statements have grains of truth in them.
See comment
#1. Those "priviledged few" are generally the people
that get
things done and manage their resources wisely. Personally, I would
not want
someone without the ability to manage having any control over my
collection.
Oh, okay, so you're saying that if we can't pay the increasing
cost of admission, we're deadbeats, is that it?!?! Try to tell
that to the retired folks who have fixed incomes. Try to tell
that to schoolkids who now equate computer=Wintel, and don't
know that something existed before. Yeah, we're going to pass
this all on, right? Yeah, when we're all dead, and there no
one around to tell the story . . . Now as a matter of fact, I don't give a rat's
ass about your
collection. What you do with it is *your* business. What I *do*
care about though, are the poor stiffs who would like to pursue
computing as a hobby, but will instead have to find something
else to do, because the prices are out of sight.
<Sigh>, It also matters not at all to me what you think or do. At the point
you leave the "poor me" attitude behind, and start looking at why your
situation exists (whatever that might be), then you will *begin* to be able
to do something about it (assuming you even want to.) Your complaints about
prices are reflective of your attitudes and they don't seem to be
particularly productive.
4:12 p.m.
New subject: Price of our hobby, was Re: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association?
I remember when NOBODY wanted Edsels.
I remember when NOBODY wanted VWs from the 50's, PARTICULARLY those ones
with the split rear window, semaphore turn signals, hand crank, etc.
There are still some analogous niches. Nobody seems to be collecting
monitors. printers? Too bulky? Nobody seems to be collecting modems.
Who wants some PCJrs?
Morrow MD2?
Amiga 1000?
[local pickup only. Sorry, for the price, I'm not willing to ship.]
--
Fred Cisin cisin(a)xenosoft.com
XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com
2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366
Berkeley, CA 94710-2219
7:17 p.m.
New subject: Price of our hobby, was Re: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association?
On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 06:12:49PM -0700, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
There are still some analogous niches. Nobody seems
to be collecting
monitors. printers? Too bulky? Nobody seems to be collecting modems.
Who wants some PCJrs?
Morrow MD2?
Amiga 1000?
[local pickup only. Sorry, for the price, I'm not willing to ship.]
I've got an A1000 with keyboard (no mouse, sorry) in Austin, Texas
free for the pickup, along with three 19" rackmount drive trays (complete
with slide rails) from a 4/690MP; along with the trays go six 2.1gig
Seagate 5.25" FH differential SCSI HDs (and all cables) and six 1.2gig
5.25" FH IPI drives. I've also got six 1200 watt power supplies for
a 4/6[7,9]0MP.
If anybody in the area wants any of this, let me know. I need to clean
out the garage for the arrival of more DEC stuff in a couple of
weeks.
Bill
--
+-------------------\ /-----------------+
| Bill Bradford | www.sunhelp.org |
| mrbill(a)mrbill.net | www.decvax.org |
| Austin, Texas USA | www.pdp11.org |
+-------------------/ \-----------------+
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25 comments
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participants (15)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
aw288＠osfn.org -
chris＠mainecoon.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com -
foo＠siconic.com -
ghldbrd＠ccp.com -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
jeff.kaneko＠juno.com -
marvin＠rain.org -
mrbill＠mrbill.net -
rdd＠smart.net -
richard＠idcomm.com -
transit＠lerctr.org -
zmerch＠30below.com