7 Jun
2002
7 Jun
'02
3:41 p.m.
Hi Owen,
----- Original Message -----
From: Owen Robertson <univac2(a)earthlink.net>
I had an experience where a RadioShack employee
didn't know what a
null-modem adapter was. And several experience where in the middle of
describing what I'm looking for, I look at the salesman's face,
and realize
that he has no clue what I'm talking about. So I guess when you
walk into a
RadioShack store, and someone asks if they can help you, and you
tell them
no, you're being quite literal - They *can't* help you.
This must be a US thing, in general, in Oz, they seem to be a much more
knowledgable bunch. But, the drift has been away from electronic
components to consumer electronics, that's the market these days, so
you can't really expect them to know much about things other than that.
cheers,
Lance
----------------
Powered by telstra.com
7 Jun
7 Jun
4:55 p.m.
On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, blacklord wrote:
This must be a US thing, in general, in Oz, they seem
to be a much more
knowledgable bunch. But, the drift has been away from electronic
components to consumer electronics, that's the market these days, so
you can't really expect them to know much about things other than that.
You basically hit at the heart of the matter. The reality is that US
society on the whole does not do hacking at a hardware level anymore
(which I suspect is the case in other parts of the world) and Radio Shack
has responded by evolving into yet another typical consumer electronics
showroom.
Over the past two decades, we have gone from a nation of builders to a
nation of users. We throw away perfectly good items because perhaps a cap
blew or whatever it is was "just too old". This is the work of Capitalism
and Marketing. It used to be that we encouraged people to learn and do.
Now we encourage people to buy and expend.
We are the last bastion of a bygone era. Revel in your own obsolescence
;)
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
8 Jun
8 Jun
12:30 p.m.
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3:27 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
It used to be that we encouraged people to learn and do.
> Any suggestions as to how these trends can
be reversed?
Thanks Tony . . . . The last big electronics
boom started with WWII
surplus and a gentleman named Howard Anthony who started manufacturing
kits. Even simple things can still be built, and from those beginnings
we can hatch a new generation of hardware hackers/builders.
There is nothing like building something from scratch, and it works firt
time out; if it doesn't, figuring out what the problem is. Can't get
that from calling 800 numbers and reciting your VISA and MC numbers over
the phone.
Gary Hildebrand
St. Joseph, MO
You basically hit at the heart of the matter.
The reality is that US
society on the whole does not do hacking at a hardware level anymore
(which I suspect is the case in other parts of the world) and Radio Shack <snip>
> Now we encourage people to buy and expend.
5:02 p.m.
Gary Hildebrand wrote:
Thanks Tony . . . . The last big electronics boom
started with WWII
surplus and a gentleman named Howard Anthony who started manufacturing
kits. Even simple things can still be built, and from those beginnings
we can hatch a new generation of hardware hackers/builders.
There is nothing like building something from scratch, and it works firt
time out; if it doesn't, figuring out what the problem is. Can't get
that from calling 800 numbers and reciting your VISA and MC numbers over
the phone.
Watching the Japanese Anime "Hand Maid May" reminds me that the US
people
seem to have forgotten how to DREAM and foster dreams in young people.
This is a story who's main character's dream is to build robots and his
struggles with the people around him to carry out his dream. Since the
story is a teen romantic comedy with some SI/FI fantasy you will not
find much
practical computer science but rather a spirit of youthful energy and
lot of
cute young women.
His life changes when the cyber-doll May , a 1/6 scale house maid
that was sent to him mistake do to a computer error from
a mysterious company. The people in story grow when get the chance to
carry out their dreams what ever they be.
http://www.pioneeranimation.com/titles.php?series_id=16
--
Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu *
www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html
8:25 p.m.
Hi,
Gary Hildebrand <ghldbrd(a)ccp.com> said:
Tony Duell wrote:
It used to be that we encouraged people to learn and do.
> Any suggestions as to how these
trends can be reversed?
Thanks Tony . . . . The last big
electronics boom started with WWII
surplus and a gentleman named Howard Anthony who started manufacturing
kits. Even simple things can still be built, and from those beginnings
we can hatch a new generation of hardware hackers/builders.
At least here in the UK some people are making a positive effort to
encourage youngsters to build radio equipment from scratch or from kits,
we have a number of kit suppliers. No-one seems to be doing much on the
digital front though. Schools could do more, I think, because if you
don't get someone interested by the time they're thirteen or so, you
never will.
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb(a)dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
You basically hit at the heart of the matter.
The reality is that US
society on the whole does not do hacking at a hardware level anymore
(which I suspect is the case in other parts of the world) and Radio Shack <snip>
> Now we encourage people to buy and expend.
9 Jun
9 Jun
3:02 a.m.
"Stan Barr" <stanb(a)dial.pipex.com> said:
At least here in the UK some people are making a
positive effort to
encourage youngsters to build radio equipment from scratch or from kits,
we have a number of kit suppliers. No-one seems to be doing much on the
digital front though. Schools could do more, I think, because if you
don't get someone interested by the time they're thirteen or so, you
never will.
I'm still waiting for someone to start selling something similar to
the old
RadioShack/Tandy "Science Fair" kit (the one with the breadboard - was it
the 300 In One?) and include a section in the guide about hooking it up to a
computer using a buffer board and printer cable. Then introduce kids to
EPROMs and teach them how to design a microprocessor on a computer (or by
hand) :-)
In fact, I might have to do that myself :-)
Later.
--
Phil.
philpem(a)dsl.pipex.com
http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/
7:23 a.m.
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9:25 a.m.
New subject: Microprocessor development systems (was: Re: I hate Radio Shack)
"Tony Duell" <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> said:
Blasted EMC regs...
Later.
--
Phil.
philpem(a)dsl.pipex.com
http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/
> I'm still waiting for someone to start
selling something similar to the
old
> RadioShack/Tandy "Science Fair" kit
(the one with the breadboard - was
it
> the 300 In One?) and include a section in the
guide about hooking it up
to a
I think that kit is still sold by Maplin in the UK. At
least I've seen
one in their shops which seems to include a plugblock type breadboard.
Can't
say I've seen it in the local store. Then again, I stopped looking at
the kits section when they discontinued the Z80 Development System. And I
was only ?5 away from buying one, too (I was about 13 yrs old at the time).
Alas, a Maplin Z80 Development System has joined the list of the many SBC's
I'd like to acquire...
So far, my current list is:
MOS KIM-1
Synertek SYM-1 or SY-VIM-1
Rockwell AIM-65 (with or without printer, with or without case)
Compukit UK101 (yes, I want a UK101...)
Maplin Z80 Development System
Anyone want to part with any of the above? I nearly managed to get a "box
full" of SYM-1s last year but the guy who had them has since lost his job
and said he'd e-mail me when "everything is sorted out"...
computer using
a buffer board and printer cable. Then introduce kids to
Agreed. I have never seen
an experimental kit that covers computer
interfacing. Maybe somebody should design one. Of course getting it to
pass the EMC regulations (which are mandatory in the UK, even for kits)
would be the expensive part :-(
8:22 p.m.
Hi,
ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said:
Just looked in my Maplin catalog and the list three types with increasing
complexity. They look like a pretty good intruduction for a youngster.
http://www.maplin.co.uk part nos. FW58N, FW61R and FW74R if you want
to take a look.
An exemption was negotiated for kits of parts, otherwise our kit industry
would have been wiped out! The authorities recognize the value of
hands-on experience in encouraging youngsters to take an interest in
technology.
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb(a)dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
I'm still
waiting for someone to start selling something similar to the old
RadioShack/Tandy "Science Fair" kit (the one with the breadboard - was it
the 300 In One?) and include a section in the guide about hooking it up to a
I think that kit is still sold by Maplin in the UK. At least I've seen
one in their shops which seems to include a plugblock type breadboard.
computer using
a buffer board and printer cable. Then introduce kids to
Agreed. I have never seen an experimental kit that covers computer
interfacing. Maybe somebody should design one. Of course getting it to
pass the EMC regulations (which are mandatory in the UK, even for kits)
would be the expensive part :-( 
10 Jun
10 Jun
3:16 a.m.
On Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 09:22:34AM +0100, Stan Barr wrote:
Just looked in my Maplin catalog and the list three
types with increasing
complexity. They look like a pretty good intruduction for a youngster.
http://www.maplin.co.uk part nos. FW58N, FW61R and FW74R if you want
to take a look.
Exactly what I've been looking for.. but can anyone recommend similar
companies in the US, with similar stuff for sale?
Bill
--
Bill Bradford
mrbill(a)mrbill.net
Austin, TX
6:34 a.m.
Hi,
Bill Bradford <mrbill(a)mrbill.net said:
On Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 09:22:34AM +0100, Stan Barr
wrote:
A look in Maplins catalog showed the kits are by Maxitronix. A Google
search turned up a number of hits, including:
http://http://www.sciplus.com/category.cfm?subsection=2
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb(a)dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
Just looked in my Maplin catalog and the list
three types with increasing
complexity. They look like a pretty good intruduction for a youngster.
http://www.maplin.co.uk part nos. FW58N, FW61R and FW74R if you want
to take a look.
Exactly what I've been looking for.. but can anyone recommend similar
companies in the US, with similar stuff for sale?
10:26 a.m.
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11 Jun
11 Jun
12:23 a.m.
Hi,
ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said:
Not AFAIK. There is no exemption in the UK for constructional kits (the
ruling is that a kit, assembled according to the instructions, has to
comply with all the appropriate directives). Nor is there an exemption
for one-offs, even if only used by the constructor (!).
Tony:
At a question and answer session with the Radio Communications Agnecy in 1996
when the legislation was being enacted, they stated that "Amatuer radio
apparatus is outside the scope of the EMC Directive 89/336/EEC so long as
it is not offered commercially for sale. If the kit, ie a set of parts, is
assembled by an amateur radio operator, it does not have to comply."
Also :
"Q: Is the home construction of non amateur radio electronic equipment
exempt from compliance with the legislation?
A: Not in the full sense, but again as above, the UK EMC Regulations do not
say the constructor has to demonstrate compliance for taking into service.
The kit is not being placed on the market in its finished form, but when
it is complete is being taken into service."
In other words it is the constructor who's responsible for the finished
product, not the supplier of the parts, and home built equipment doesn't
have to comply.
They also had in mind the absurd situation whereby you could build something
Agreed. I have never seen an experimental kit that
covers computer
interfacing. Maybe somebody should design one. Of course getting it to
pass the EMC regulations (which are mandatory in the UK, even for kits)
would be the expensive part :-(
An exemption was negotiated for kits of parts, otherwise our kit industry from instrucions in a magazine, but a company
couldn't sell you all the parts
with instructions!
IIRC there are also specific exemptions for educational/training equipment
e.g. Open University etc.
You can judge that the situation was satisfactorally resolved by looking at
the large number of kit manufacturers in this country.
The EC don't 'arf make thing difficult!! ;-)
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb(a)dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
11:48 a.m.
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8:56 p.m.
Hi,
ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said:
True most are related to radio (not just amateur stuff) but that's where
most home construction has traditionally been. Maplin still sell kits and
there are a number of firms making thing like PIC chip kits, and even the
Forth Interest Group UK sell a HC11 board kit (to get back to computers)
and I wonder if all the Vellemen kits are certified??
What with the data terminal equipment regs and new legislation governing
what equipment you can fit in cars, it's enough to make a guy think about
emigrating across the pond!
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb(a)dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
I think the fact that we've been told totally
different versions of this
(BTW, at least one book -- 'EMC for Product Designers' -- confirms my
version from what I can see, although it doesn't sepcifically mention
kits) implies that the DTI don't have a clue.. But that's not news.
Yeah...we were talking to 2 different sections of the same Government
department, it's not surprising we got 2 different answers ;-)
You can judge that the situation was satisfactorally resolved by looking at
the large number of kit manufacturers in this country.
Apart from amateur radio kits (which may well be classed as home-built
amateur radio equipment), there are very few kit suppliers that I can
think of. 
16 Jun
16 Jun
7:37 a.m.
On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, Tony Duell wrote:
[1] One classic is that a device has to be immune from
a certain specified
level of ESD (there must be no permanent malfunctions and no loss of
internal data). This makes a lot of sense for, say, a PC sold to the
geenral public. It makes no sense at all for a piece of test equipment to
be used only by the constructor (who possibly doesn't care if he has to
reset it after a zap) at a static-safe bench (so the possibility of a zap
is minimal anyway). But if I build something that doesn't comply with
that regulation, as I understand it, I am breaking the law.
On an unrelated vien, I've often thought about tracking down an old
tempest PC case, removing the guts and installing something smaller but
more modern -- FDDI, 100Base-FX or 1GigE over Fiber -- and putting a big
RAID array in it (big -- three 120GB IDE drives[0]) and using it for EMP
resistant storage. Lightning is EMP, after all. :-)
[0]: No comments from the peanut gallery. I already know about IDE's
reliabily and potential problems first-hand.
--
Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said.
<kris(a)nospam.catonic.net> | IM: KrisBSD | HSV, AL.
-------------------------------------------------------
"Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony."
6:45 a.m.
Quothe Stan Barr, from writings of Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 09:25:25AM +0100:
At least here in the UK some people are making a
positive effort to
encourage youngsters to build radio equipment from scratch or from kits,
we have a number of kit suppliers. No-one seems to be doing much on the
digital front though. Schools could do more, I think, because if you
^^^^^^^
That's most unlikely, if you're referring to those outrageously
expensive taxpayer-funded child processing plants where the "students"
are taught to be conformists who value team sports (duh, footbawl!
rah, rah, rah!) above activities requiring thinking, are
indoctrinated with political correctness and are taught to despise
intellectual endeavors.
--
Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
rdd(a)rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.
12:36 p.m.
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9 Jun
9 Jun
7:02 a.m.
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10 Jun
10 Jun
10:41 a.m.
It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated:
I came across this site the other day, and while it has little to do with
10 year old computers, it does, however, give instructions for building a
lot of simple ``toys'' (with parts from around the house, or available
anywhere for a few bucks) to explain physical, electrical and chemical
phenomenon:
http://www.scitoys.com/
-spc (A working motor with only a battery and wire, for instance ... )
There is nothing like building something from
scratch, and it works firt
time out; if it doesn't, figuring out what the problem is. Can't get
Agreed. Learning to troubleshoot encourages you to think logically. These
days almost nobody seems to be able to think in a logical manner (as in,
do something, see what the results are, then plan your next action based
on those results). It's a great pity.
And of course the feeling when something you've built -- however simple
-- works is impossible to describe.
16 Jun
16 Jun
6:57 a.m.
Quothe Tony Duell, from writings of Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 01:30:16AM +0100:
[quoting ?]
No rational, intelligent, person would be happy with that. It's the
work of greed, sloth and aversity to intellectial activities.
A few years ago, I heard a school teacher exclaim "I'm not an
intellectual."
> You basically hit at the heart of the matter.
The reality is that US
> society on the whole does not do hacking at a hardware level anymore
Alas, that's very true; few people seen interested in building or repairing
things, they just want to "buy new" (which is often cheap, or expensive,
rubbish).
It's certainly true in the UK. Almost nobody makes
_anything_ any more.
If you do, you're eccentric....
Of course, eccentricity is a good thing...
Over the past
two decades, we have gone from a nation of builders to a
nation of users. We throw away perfectly good items because perhaps a cap
blew or whatever it is was "just too old". This is the work of Capitalism
You may be happy with this, I most certainly am not... and Marketing.
It used to be that we encouraged people to learn and do.
This worries me. It worries me a lot. People should be encouraged to
learn. If nobody understands the current stuff properly, who is going to
ever improve it, for example? Any suggestions as to how these trends can be
reversed?
For a start, let's send idiot-boy Bush to China in exchange for what's
left of the old computers that we've sent over there as scrap. On
second thought, the Chinese would consider that an unfair trade and
reject it.
--
Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
rdd(a)rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.
12:38 p.m.
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8225
days inactive
8234
days old
22 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
blacklord＠telstra.com -
foo＠siconic.com -
ghldbrd＠ccp.com -
kris＠catonic.net -
mrbill＠mrbill.net -
philpem＠dsl.pipex.com -
rdd＠rddavis.org -
spc＠conman.org -
stanb＠dial.pipex.com