19 Nov
1999
19 Nov
'99
12:03 p.m.
Hi Gang:
Well an 11/60 is going to the scrappers on Monday here in Vancouver. It's
at an acquaintance's house, he got it and never got around to getting it
set up in his basement.
I can't take it due to lack of storage space. Too bad, it's complete,
although it's been stored in a garage and not powered up for about 10
years.
I am, however, going to save the CPU cards, any other cards, and the
backplanes. I will also try to save anything else that can be readily
removed from the machine.
I did try to find a taker for this beast, as you'll recall from the lists,
but unfortunately it's been almost a year and the potential takers have
not been able to get around to picking it up. He cannot wait anymore and
has arranged for a scrap metal dealer to pick it up this Monday.
This is a sad situation, but at least I'll be able to save some of the
machine. I'll post to the lists with my results.
Kevin
--
Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD
mcquiggi(a)sfu.ca
19 Nov
19 Nov
2:31 p.m.
Aarrgh!
Didn't know an 11/60 was going on the trash block; those systems are RARE.
And they were one of two 11's that could actually be microcoded in the field...
(the other was the 11/03 with the WCS11)
I've always had a dream of re-coding an 11/60 to support 22bit and supervisor
stacks... With a pair of RA60's in place of the RK07's...
What a system that would have been.
Can anyone save this thing? I'm on the wrong coast.
CZ
2:58 p.m.
Hi:
Looks like we _may_ have a recipient for the system as a whole. Otherwise
the boards and backplane will be saved - good news for the other remaining
11/60s.
I'll keep everyone posted.
Kevin
Aarrgh!
Didn't know an 11/60 was going on the trash block; those systems are RARE.
And they were one of two 11's that could actually be microcoded in the field...
(the other was the 11/03 with the WCS11)
I've always had a dream of re-coding an 11/60 to support 22bit and supervisor
stacks... With a pair of RA60's in place of the RK07's...
What a system that would have been.
Can anyone save this thing? I'm on the wrong coast.
CZ
--
Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD
mcquiggi(a)sfu.ca
9:58 p.m.
On Fri, 19 Nov 1999, Kevin McQuiggin wrote:
Hi:
Looks like we _may_ have a recipient for the system as a whole. Otherwise
the boards and backplane will be saved - good news for the other remaining
11/60s.
I'll keep everyone posted.
Just for eveyrones information; I have a set of 11/760 boards lying
around, since I scrapped an 11/60 a few years ago. If anyone wants them,
I'll be happy to send them. Might want the shipment payed for, though.
This is from Sweden...
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
20 Nov
20 Nov
12:55 a.m.
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3:29 a.m.
New subject: pdp-11/60 WCS
Didn't
know an 11/60 was going on the trash block; those systems are RARE.
And they were one of two 11's that could actually be microcoded in the field...
Wasn't the writeable control store an option for the 11/60 as well? I
seem to remember that the 11/60 I did a couple of minor repairs on didn't
have this board.
Incidentally, if you're short of space, it's just possible to get the
11/60 CPU backplane into a BA11-K. You need the later (32A) H7441
regulators, and a second BA11-K for memory/IO, but it will work.
-tony
The folks at Reuters supposedly used the WCS to make the 11/60 the
worlds fastest PDP8. (Wonder if the SIM PDP8 or the PDP8 emulator Doug Jones
would be faster on a Pentium class pc).
Bill
---
bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org
Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC,
The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check.
21 Nov
21 Nov
5:33 p.m.
New subject: pdp-11/60 WCS
Bill Pechter <pechter(a)pechter.dyndns.org> wrote:
The folks at Reuters supposedly used the WCS to make
the 11/60 the
worlds fastest PDP8.
I've heard of this before, but never found anyone with details.
Did anyone save a copy of it?
(Wonder if the SIM PDP8 or the PDP8 emulator Doug
Jones
would be faster on a Pentium class pc).
Almost certainly.
5:30 p.m.
New subject: PDP-11/60 WCS (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue)
Tony wrote:
Wasn't the writeable control store an option for
the 11/60 as well? I
seem to remember that the 11/60 I did a couple of minor repairs on didn't
have this board.
In fact, the 11/60 was the ONLY non-microprocessor-based PDP-11 that
had a writable control store option.
(The VAX-11/7xx machines aren't really PDP-11s, though they do have a
compatability mode.)
There was an aftermarket WCS option for the 11/45. However, this was
a very hairy device, because the standard 11/45 hardware did not have
enough leftover microcode address space to be useful, nor did it have
any data paths beyond what were necessary for the standard microcode.
They had to add a whole lot of stuff.
22 Nov
22 Nov
4:56 a.m.
New subject: PDP-11/60 WCS (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue)
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5:42 a.m.
New subject: PDP-11/60 WCS (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue)
Tony wrote:
Actually the 11/780 is a memory storage unit for the console 11/03.
Use the maintenance return routine to store stuff in the 11/780 WCS
for expanded memory. 8-)
-Bill
---
bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org
Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC,
The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check.
Wasn't the writeable control store an option
for the 11/60 as well? I
seem to remember that the 11/60 I did a couple of minor repairs on didn't
have this board.
(The VAX-11/7xx machines aren't really PDP-11s, though they do have a
compatability mode.)
9:35 a.m.
At 11:31 PM 11/19/99 -0500, CZ wrote:
Vancouver BC.
Oh, and get with the program, PDP's are cool, HP's aren't :^)
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
Can anyone save this thing? I'm on the wrong
coast.
I don't know. Where is it?
Joe (in Florida) and who just abandoned an 11/34. 
2:22 p.m.
New subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue)
At 03:35 PM 11/20/1999 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote:
Oh, and get with the program, PDP's are cool, HP's aren't :^)
Don't let either of my HP1000F's hear you say that... B^}
-jim
---
jimw(a)computergarage.org
The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174
1:44 a.m.
New subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue)
Joe wrote...
I think I'll drop a 9845 on Zane the next time
I go to Portland!
Nah, get him a 21MX E or F series. That'll hook him!
I dearly love my PDP-8E, but I truely believe the architecture on the HP
21MX line to be far more elegant. Not necessarily superior, but certainly
more elegant. Just my own biased opinion....
Jay West
2:49 a.m.
New subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue)
I think anyone who has been hooked by HP gear would say the same thing.
Even before anything with the HP logo on it could grab my undivided
attention, I was always amazed at the kind of ingenuity and engineering
brilliance that went into the physical design of the systems.
Aaron
On Sun, 21 Nov 1999, Jay West wrote:
Joe wrote...
I think I'll drop a 9845 on Zane the next
time I go to Portland!
Nah, get him a 21MX E or F series. That'll hook him!
I dearly love my PDP-8E, but I truely believe the architecture on the HP
21MX line to be far more elegant. Not necessarily superior, but certainly
more elegant. Just my own biased opinion....
Jay West
2:54 a.m.
New subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue)
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4:17 a.m.
New subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue)
I think anyone who has been hooked by HP gear would say the same thing.
Even before anything with the HP logo on it could grab my undivided
attention, I was always amazed at the kind of ingenuity and engineering
brilliance that went into the physical design of the systems.
Yep... HP stuff _used_ to be very well engineered, both electronically
and mechanically. The 9100 is a total work of art, for example :-). I
love working on such machines.
Just a pity that modern HP stuff is nowhere near as good, and that their
support at the moment is a total joke.
4:57 a.m.
New subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue)
On Sun, 21 Nov 1999, Mark Green wrote:
> >
> > I think anyone who has been hooked by HP gear would say the same thing.
> > Even before anything with the HP logo on it could grab my undivided
> > attention, I was always amazed at the kind of ingenuity and engineering
> > brilliance that went into the physical design of the systems.
>
> Yep... HP stuff _used_ to be very well engineered, both electronically
> and mechanically. The 9100 is a total work of art, for example :-). I
> love working on such machines.
>
> Just a pity that modern HP stuff is nowhere near as good, and that their
> support at the moment is a total joke.
Actually, I must be a rare exception to the rule. We use a gaggle of HP
Vectra PII machines at work, and they are fantastic. We use two in
mission-critical roles, a file server and a fax server, both running NT,
that continuously boast uptimes of months before they're taken down for
regular maintenance. And the snap-lock type cases are fantastic to work on
too, since you don't even have to disconnect them from the peripherals to
do routine maintenance like HD replacements or ram upgrades.
As far as service, we use a dozen or so Omnibooks in the organization and
have had nothing but excellent support and service for them. Since the
only HP mini stuff I use is my *ancient* collection, I can't vouch for
enterprise/workstation support...but the laptop/desktop PC support has
been outstanding.
That all said, nothing I've come across today comes close to displaying
the kind of inventiveness and imagination that the older systems have...
Aaron
5:33 a.m.
New subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue)
I have to at least partially disagree with you on this.
Their
consummer PCs may be of mixed quality, but their workstations are
still the best you can get. We run a mixed shop with Sun, SGI, HP,
IBM workstations and some old DEC alphas. The HPs are by far the
most reliable. We have a high end SGI (a multi-pipe IR) that has
The HP's are the most reliable?!?!?! Guess you don't have many do you?
I'm so thankful that I don't have to deal with the HP's at work it isn't
funny! HP always seems to have people on site for repairs.
I worked with HP Workstations several years ago, and really liked them.
Although I found their habit of totally changing the way devices are
handled in HP-UX between different versions, more than just a little
irritating!
All the Sun's I've had to deal with are very reliable, and the IBM's are
pretty good two, but considering the vintage of the one on my desk at work,
I can't say much either way on IBM's since I've not worked on a modern
system (it was old 3 years ago when I started working there, but I won't
give it up becuase it would be replaced with an NT box).
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
6:44 a.m.
New subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue)
I have to at
least partially disagree with you on this. Their
consummer PCs may be of mixed quality, but their workstations are
still the best you can get. We run a mixed shop with Sun, SGI, HP,
IBM workstations and some old DEC alphas. The HPs are by far the
most reliable. We have a high end SGI (a multi-pipe IR) that has
The HP's are the most reliable?!?!?! Guess you don't have many do you?
I'm so thankful that I don't have to deal with the HP's at work it isn't
funny! HP always seems to have people on site for repairs.
I worked with HP Workstations several years ago, and really liked them.
Although I found their habit of totally changing the way devices are
handled in HP-UX between different versions, more than just a little
irritating!
I take it you've never worked on SGI workstations. They like to
change things completely between maintenance releases. We won't
even put in an OS patch if we know there is an important demos
coming up within the next month, just too much of a risk.
All the Sun's I've had to deal with are very reliable, and the IBM's are
pretty good two, but considering the vintage of the one on my desk at work,
I can't say much either way on IBM's since I've not worked on a modern
system (it was old 3 years ago when I started working there, but I won't
give it up becuase it would be replaced with an NT box).
We have staff onsite for maintaining our Suns. The only workstations
we have onsite staff for, and its not because of numbers. In our Sun
labs we always have two spare workstation to handle breakdowns. We
don't need to do this in our HP labs. Unfortunately the number 2 is
a bit low, but we don't have any more extra space in the Sun labs.
--
Dr. Mark Green mark(a)cs.ualberta.ca
Professor (780) 492-4584
Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS)
Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX)
University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada
9:31 a.m.
New subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue)
We have quite a number of them, and largely no
problems. I wish
In the last couple years we've gotten about 200+ I think at our site alone,
don't know the exact number.
I take it you've never worked on SGI workstations.
They like to
I touched one about twice, and that's about all I've done :^)
We have staff onsite for maintaining our Suns. The
only workstations
we have onsite staff for, and its not because of numbers. In our Sun
labs we always have two spare workstation to handle breakdowns. We
don't need to do this in our HP labs. Unfortunately the number 2 is
a bit low, but we don't have any more extra space in the Sun labs.
Hmmm, the only problems I've ever seen is a hard drive dying on a *old*
system, or problems with RAM on that same system, the rest just seem to
run. We've got everything from Sparc 2's to Ultra 2's, though these days
we're mainly Ultra's for what Sun's we still have. We prefer Sun's, but
have a *very* hard time getting them. HP's are a piece of cake for us to
get.
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
6:49 a.m.
New subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue)
All the Sun's I've had to deal with are very reliable, and the IBM's are
pretty good two, but considering the vintage of the one on my desk at work,
I can't say much either way on IBM's since I've not worked on a modern
system (it was old 3 years ago when I started working there, but I won't
give it up becuase it would be replaced with an NT box).
Well, I lost the first Ultra-10 I had within 10 days of it's arrival.
The early IBM PCI 133mhz Power PC boxes had wierd problems without logging
any errors in the errorlog. OS patches fixed that one around AIX 4.1.3.
Following a board swap my machines ran for a year without a crash.
Most of my Ultras have been pretty relable as far as hardware.
Bill
---
bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org
Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC,
The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check.
9:25 a.m.
New subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue)
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6 a.m.
New subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue)
At 04:54 PM 11/21/99 +0000, Tony wrote:
Very true but there are still lots of fine old HPs out there that need
to be rescued! I have little interest in anything newer than the HP 71. I
even gave away my HP 48. Don't even ask about the HP 49!
Joe
I think anyone who has been hooked by HP gear would say the same thing.
Even before anything with the HP logo on it could grab my undivided
attention, I was always amazed at the kind of ingenuity and engineering
brilliance that went into the physical design of the systems.
Yep... HP stuff _used_ to be very well engineered, both electronically
and mechanically. The 9100 is a total work of art, for example :-). I
love working on such machines.
Just a pity that modern HP stuff is nowhere near as good, and that their
support at the moment is a total joke.
5:34 a.m.
New subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue)
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9:17 a.m.
New subject: Apple ][+ find and info/sw request...
My dad was cleaning out part of the garage and came across the Programmer
Reference Card for the S-C Assembler II Disk version 4.0 for the
pple ][ and Apple ][ Plus.
Gawd does it bring back memorys of leaning assembler on my Apple ][+! Now
that I have the reference card and all the refreshed memories, is there any
chance anyone has the software itself laying around on a floppy?
Additional question - when I had my apple ][+ at around age 15 or so, I
always used a monochrome monitor. I never had color before I got rid of it
around age 20. I was wondering - does a stock apple ][+ support a color
monitor or is it monochrome via the RCA jack unless you get an add-in card?
Thanks in advance for any replies!
Jay West
10:06 a.m.
New subject: Apple ][+ find and info/sw request...
AFAIK, the Apple II always supported color - in part, that is what made it
so popular. I'm sure you can pick one up for $10 or so if you are feeling
nostalgic. Sorry, I don't have the software.
Bob Stek
bobstek(a)ix.netcom.com
Saver of Lost SOLs
-----Original Message-----
From: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu
[mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Jay West
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 1999 6:18 PM
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject: Apple ][+ find and info/sw request...
My dad was cleaning out part of the garage and came across the Programmer
Reference Card for the S-C Assembler II Disk version 4.0 for the
pple ][ and Apple ][ Plus.
Gawd does it bring back memorys of leaning assembler on my Apple ][+! Now
that I have the reference card and all the refreshed memories, is there any
chance anyone has the software itself laying around on a floppy?
Additional question - when I had my apple ][+ at around age 15 or so, I
always used a monochrome monitor. I never had color before I got rid of it
around age 20. I was wondering - does a stock apple ][+ support a color
monitor or is it monochrome via the RCA jack unless you get an add-in card?
Thanks in advance for any replies!
Jay West
10:26 a.m.
New subject: Apple ][+ find and info/sw request...
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6:19 p.m.
New subject: Apple ][+ find and info/sw request...
ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
Incidentally, back when Apple ][s were current it was
generally claimed
in the UK that if you plugged anything but a colourcard into slot 7 you
would do serious damage to the machine. Looking at the schematics I can't
see a reason why this will do any damage, but I've never had the courage
to try it. Anyone know anything about this?
Probably just an urban legend, like the ones about how all your memory
chips need to be from the same vendor, and how they must all be the
same speed, and how you shouldn't use 120 ns DRAMs in a computer designed
for 150 ns DRAMs, and similar BS.
2:17 p.m.
New subject: Apple ][+ find and info/sw request...
On Sun, 21 Nov 1999, Jay West wrote:
My dad was cleaning out part of the garage and came
across the Programmer
Reference Card for the S-C Assembler II Disk version 4.0 for the
pple ][ and Apple ][ Plus.
Gawd does it bring back memorys of leaning assembler on my Apple ][+! Now
that I have the reference card and all the refreshed memories, is there any
chance anyone has the software itself laying around on a floppy?
Additional question - when I had my apple ][+ at around age 15 or so, I
always used a monochrome monitor. I never had color before I got rid of it
around age 20. I was wondering - does a stock apple ][+ support a color
monitor or is it monochrome via the RCA jack unless you get an add-in card?
Thanks in advance for any replies!
Jay West
Hi Jay,
Your best bet is to go to one of the 'pirate' sites for Apple software,
'ftp.apple.asimov.net' comes to mind. There you will find disk images
for a lot of programs, including the system master disks. Depending on
how patient you are, it isn't unreasonable to download DOS across the
serial line to the machine, then download the disk image and write it
to a real disk one sector at a time (using RWTS). If you use the DOS
3.3 with ADT, then you have a bootable disk that can be used to download
more images across the serial line. If you don't have a serial port,
I would recommend buying a super serial II on EBay (about $10).
As for the color monitor, I have tied them to the video input jack on
my TV or VCR. This was how many Apples were run in the early days,
and you get color too!!!!
Good luck,
clint
6:13 p.m.
New subject: Apple ][+ find and info/sw request...
"Jay West" <west(a)tseinc.com> wrote:
Additional question - when I had my apple ][+ at
around age 15 or so, I
always used a monochrome monitor. I never had color before I got rid of it
around age 20. I was wondering - does a stock apple ][+ support a color
monitor or is it monochrome via the RCA jack unless you get an add-in card?
The Apple ][ supported color from day 1, although the earliest revisions
of the logic board (before the ][+) only supported four colors [*] in
high-resolution mode, vs. six colors [*] on later boards. The color
support, combined with the open architecture and not-too-ridiculous
price are largely credited with Apple's amazing success in the early
days.
Eric
[*] In this context, black and white are considered to be colors.
3 Dec
3 Dec
9:56 a.m.
New subject: Amiga 500, 2000 serial ports: The same?
Hello, I have access to a "Midi Gold 500" Amiga Midi Interface. Will it
work on the A2000 (I know the A1000 serial port is physically different,
and may be electrically different as well).
Thanks in advance!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Charles P. Hobbs __ __ ____ ___ ___ ____
transit(a)primenet.com /__)/__) / / / / /_ /\ / /_ /
/ / \ / / / / /__ / \/ /___ /
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3:26 p.m.
New subject: Amiga 500, 2000 serial ports: The same?
Date sent: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:56:27 -0800 (PST)
Send reply to: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
From: "Charles P. Hobbs" <transit(a)primenet.com>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Amiga 500, 2000 serial ports: The same?
Originally to: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
To the best of my knowledge, they are compatible. Midi away.
Paul
Hello, I have access to a "Midi Gold 500" Amiga Midi Interface. Will it
work on the A2000 (I know the A1000 serial port is physically different,
and may be electrically different as well).
Thanks in advance!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Charles P. Hobbs __ __ ____ ___
___ ____ transit(a)primenet.com /__)/__) / / / / /_ /\
/ /_ /
/ / \ / / / / /__ / \/ /___ /
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Paul Braun
Cygnus Productions
nerdware_nospam(a)laidbak.com
6:42 p.m.
New subject: Amiga 500, 2000 serial ports: The same?
Hello, I have access to a "Midi Gold 500"
Amiga Midi Interface. Will it
work on the A2000 (I know the A1000 serial port is physically different,
and may be electrically different as well).
Thanks in advance!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Charles P. Hobbs __ __ ____ ___ ___ ____
Should, the A500 and A2000 are *very* simular machines. The chips
controlling the serial ports are the same.
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
4 Dec
4 Dec
1:21 a.m.
New subject: Amiga 500, 2000 serial ports: The same?
Hello Charles
On 04-Dec-99, you wrote:
Hello, I have access to a "Midi Gold 500" Amiga Midi Interface. Will it
work on the A2000 (I know the A1000 serial port is physically different,
and may be electrically different as well).
The Amiga 500 and 2000 shares the same design of the seriel and parallel
ports so
your midi interface will run nicely on the a2000.
Regards Jacob Dahl Pind
--
21 Nov
21 Nov
11:13 a.m.
New subject: HP's -- slick stuff, high price. Great mechanicals
Yep... HP stuff _used_ to be very well engineered, both
electronically
and mechanically. The 9100 is a total work of art, for example :-). I
love working on such machines.
Just a pity that modern HP stuff is nowhere near as good, and that their
support at the moment is a total joke.
Very true but there are still lots of fine old HPs out there that need Joe
-tony
12:38 p.m.
New subject: HP's -- slick stuff, high price. Great mechanicals
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6:17 p.m.
New subject: HP's -- slick stuff, high price. Great mechanicals
Bill Pechter <pechter(a)pechter.dyndns.org> wrote:
I showed him the 11/780 design and layout and diags
and he walked me
over to the HP mini. One slick piece of hardware. The boards were
cabled together neatly with one over the edge cable. All the traces
were gold plated and it was a pretty sight.
He said HP stood for one thing "High Priced." But he was right about
the quality for the price. First rate mechanicals.
Actually, DEC used over-the-edge cabling on an early minicomputer, and
abandoned it because it was LESS reliable than backplane connection,
and also made the machines much harder to service.
Reference: _Computer Engineering: A DEC View of Hardware Systems Design_
22 Nov
22 Nov
8:05 a.m.
New subject: HP's -- slick stuff, high price. Great mechanicals
Bill Pechter <pechter(a)pechter.dyndns.org>
wrote:
A great book... but wrong on this one.
The hp stuff had one over the edge interconnect cable of less than 10
inches.
The DEC 11/40 (45,50,55,70, etc) in the BA11-F cabinet (the worst
offender) had about 1/3 to 3/4 of an inch of ribbon cables (thickness)
running through the cable trough an often popping off the Berg connector
at the top of the Hex, Quad or Dual board (most had no locking ears on
the connector. Yup, the backplane is more reliable as over the top
connectors, but between board cables (RH11, RH70, Cache, etc) were my
biggest pain in the @#$%^ at DEC). The 11/780 was a lot better with the
exception of the lousy SBI cables that were failure prone and a bitch to
troubleshoot.
The only thing worse was the annoying cables on the back of the 11/750
that were not enclosed at all... I remember the failures of an Emulex Pertec
9 track tape controller which had it's data connector to the backpanel work
loose on about 4 bits and happily wrote garbage to the tape while the
control lines worked merrily along. And the Unix system didn't know the
difference for 6 months until a drive died (read after write at the head
is NOT data verification folks).
DEC made great CPU's, decent busses and I/O boards but LOUSY CABLE
layouts (including the 11/730).
Bill
---
bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org
Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC,
The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check.
I showed him the 11/780 design and layout and
diags and he walked me
over to the HP mini. One slick piece of hardware. The boards were
cabled together neatly with one over the edge cable. All the traces
were gold plated and it was a pretty sight.
He said HP stood for one thing "High Priced." But he was right about
the quality for the price. First rate mechanicals.
Actually, DEC used over-the-edge cabling on an early minicomputer, and
abandoned it because it was LESS reliable than backplane connection,
and also made the machines much harder to service.
Reference: _Computer Engineering: A DEC View of Hardware Systems Design_
10:30 a.m.
New subject: HP's -- slick stuff, high price. Great mechanicals
I wrote:
Actually, DEC used over-the-edge cabling on an early
minicomputer, and
abandoned it because it was LESS reliable than backplane connection,
and also made the machines much harder to service.
Reference: _Computer Engineering: A DEC View of Hardware Systems Design_
Bill Pechter <pechter(a)pechter.dyndns.org> wrote:
A great book... but wrong on this one.
The hp stuff had one over the edge interconnect cable of less than 10
inches.
The DEC 11/40 (45,50,55,70, etc) in the BA11-F cabinet (the worst
offender) had about 1/3 to 3/4 of an inch of ribbon cables (thickness)
running through the cable trough an often popping off the Berg connector
at the top of the Hex, Quad or Dual board (most had no locking ears on
the connector. Yup, the backplane is more reliable as over the top
connectors, but between board cables (RH11, RH70, Cache, etc) were my
biggest pain in the @#$%^ at DEC). The 11/780 was a lot better with the
exception of the lousy SBI cables that were failure prone and a bitch to
troubleshoot.
I'm not talking about I/O cables that are many feet long between a card and
an external device, nor cables under two inches between just a few boards
in the same backplane.
I'm talking about using over-the-edge cabling for bussing signals between
many cards in the same backplane, and that's what I was referring to the
book about. This was done in the PDP-6, IIRC, and they decided that it
was a maintenance nightmare. If HP somehow made this scheme work reliably
and somehow kept it from being a headache to troubleshoot, I'd be interested
in hearing how they did it. Obviously HP must not have thought it was
a particularly great technique, since they generally aren't using it today.
11:39 a.m.
New subject: HP stuff (was HP's not cool)
Eric wrote...
I'm not talking about I/O cables that are many
feet long between a card
and
an external device, nor cables under two inches
between just a few boards
in the same backplane.
I'm talking about using over-the-edge cabling for bussing signals between
many cards in the same backplane, and that's what I was referring to the
book about. This was done in the PDP-6, IIRC, and they decided that it
was a maintenance nightmare. If HP somehow made this scheme work reliably
and somehow kept it from being a headache to troubleshoot, I'd be
interested
in hearing how they did it. Obviously HP must not
have thought it was
a particularly great technique, since they generally aren't using it
today.
As a matter of fact, HP did virtually the same thing as you mention above as
a matter of course on the 21MX line. Take a look at the memory extender
units and the I/O extender units. Each was a separate rackmount card cage to
extend either the memory or I/O backplane and they ran at exactly the same
speed as the main bus (ex: memory access time was identical in either main
memory cage or extender cage). I believe the cable length limit was 15
feet. I doubt this was problematic because it was introduced sometime around
the early 70's and followed through to the end of the F series at least
which was approximately the mid 80's. And if the memory or I/O extender
isn't quite the situation you're talking about, then the memory section of
any HP 21MX M,E, or F certainly is. What about that daisy chain cable in the
memory section that connects all the memory cards (and if you're using FCS
you have up to 3 ribbon cables, not just one).
HP 21MX's a DEC me-too copy? That's just ridiculous. I have yet to see a DEC
that split the backplane the way HP did on the MX line. Without that
fundamental change you would be stuck in the "gee I've got to remove some
memory cards to fit in my extra I/O cards" scenario. Not to mention the
optimizations you can do by having a separate bus for memory vs. I/O. Also,
I'm not familiar with mid-time period PDP's (read: Unibus, but hey, we're
talking 8's anyway), but I don't recall seeing one that had several loader
roms that you could choose from via the front panel, and the loaders would
be patched for I/O addresses via the switch register at the press of a
single button. Sure, on an 8 you could put in a hard wired rom board, but
there goes a precious slot and a hefty amount of current draw. The 21MX's
also have an interesting technique of varying the microinstruction cycle
time to speed up certain control section operations. HP made it clear that
users were encouraged to microprogram the system due to the wealth of
documentation and software they provided for doing so. Does the PDP-8
support remote IPL? And these are just a few trivial issues, not fundamental
design ones (of which there are many). Then talk about flexibility, look at
the 21MX K series - basically built to customer spec!
And by the way on a different thread, WCS and UCS was a very common option
on HP 21MX's, and on at least one model it was built in.
I'm not going to pursue the discussion about HP's being "cool" or not
any
further - I feel very strongly about the subject and might lose a few
friends if I took up the argument seriously :). Dont get me wrong - I love
my DECs too. They have their own things I like better than HP. But don't say
the old HP line is just a PDP-8 wannabe/knockoff.
Jay West
12:06 p.m.
New subject: HP stuff (was HP's not cool)
"Jay West" <west(a)tseinc.com> wrote:
HP 21MX's a DEC me-too copy? That's just
ridiculous. I have yet to see a DEC
that split the backplane the way HP did on the MX line. Without that
fundamental change you would be stuck in the "gee I've got to remove some
memory cards to fit in my extra I/O cards" scenario.
You certainly didn't have to remove memory cards from a PDP-8 to add I/O
cards. Or, for that matter, from the PDP-4, PDP-5, PDP-7, and PDP-9, which
I also claim to be the intellectual forebears of the HP 21xx. Where on earth
did you get that idea?
But don't say the old HP line is just a PDP-8
wannabe/knockoff.
In terms of the instruction-set architecture, it clearly was derived
from the DEC 18-bit and 12-bit architectures.
Whether the machine was microprogrammed, had writable control store, or
had variable-length cycle times, have nothing to do with whether the
instruction set architecture is a clone of the DEC architecture. None
of these ideas were original with either DEC or HP. All of those ideas
were used in various DEC machines, although none of the 12-bitters were
microcoded.
I didn't say that there was anything WRONG with cloning DEC
architecture, or that HP didn't innovate around the edges of it. Why
invent something completely new and different, when you can copy and
tweak existing successful designs? There's nothing wrong or sinister
about that. When you buy this year's automobile, it is full of features
and designs copied from hundreds of past models of automobiles from many
different manufacturers.
The 2100A/S added more bells and whistles to the original 2116 design,
and the 21MX machines add yet more. But that doesn't in any way make
the 21xx instruction set architecture any less of a decendent of the DEC
machines. And it's not surprising, since HP used a lot of PDP-8s before
they decided to get into the computer business themselves.
As is usual around here, (e.g., the flame war over the word "obsolete"),
people seem to associate way to much emotional baggage with simple terms
and phrases.
1:25 p.m.
New subject: HP stuff (was HP's not cool)
Eric wrote...
You certainly didn't have to remove memory cards
from a PDP-8 to add I/O
cards. Or, for that matter, from the PDP-4, PDP-5, PDP-7, and PDP-9,
which
I also claim to be the intellectual forebears of the
HP 21xx. Where on
earth
did you get that idea?
Yes, you do have to remove memory cards from a PDP-8 to add I/O cards, *IF*
your backplane is full. So in many architectures there was always a decision
to be made about having too many io cards for the memory amount you wanted
or vice versa. Of course, with the -8 you can always add another internal
backplane, but that's hardly an elegant solution.
In terms of the instruction-set architecture, it
clearly was derived
from the DEC 18-bit and 12-bit architectures.
I know both instruction sets well (albeit HP's much better). I don't find
the 21MX instructions to be any more or less like the -8 than most any other
machine out there. I suspect that the 21MX set is similar not because of
the -8 being a "forefather", but because most instruction sets have a large
number of similarities on any set of machines (except Pick virtual
assembler, that is truely a unique animal). I just can't agree that the 21MX
instruction set was derived from the 12 bit DEC stuff. There's nothing
unique about the DEC set that is in the HP set.
the 21xx instruction set architecture any less of a
decendent of the DEC
machines. And it's not surprising, since HP used a lot of PDP-8s before
they decided to get into the computer business themselves.
Ok, I have to challenge you here. Other than basic instruction set
similarity, do you have any historical evidence that the 21xx instruction
set was derived from the DEC machines? I'd love to hear it....I'm always
willing to change my position in the face of facts. But just based on
instruction set similarities? Hum....
As is usual around here, (e.g., the flame war over the
word "obsolete"),
people seem to associate way to much emotional baggage with simple terms
and phrases.
Ok, so I'm touchy about my treasured HP's <grin>. But only because it
seemed
you said they were directly derived from 12 bit decs, and I have not now or
ever seen any evidence of that. I really didn't intend to start a HP vs. DEC
war. I think they're both great machines. But don't say my machine is only
great because yours is! :)
Jay West
4:42 p.m.
New subject: HP stuff (was HP's not cool)
"Jay West" <west(a)tseinc.com> wrote:
Yes, you do have to remove memory cards from a PDP-8
to add I/O cards, *IF*
your backplane is full.
No, you don't. You've obviously never used a PDP-8. Maybe you're talking
about an 8/e, 8/f, 8/m, or 8/a.
Of course, with the -8 you can always add another
internal
backplane, but that's hardly an elegant solution.
No, that's not true either. There's a finite limit to the number of
backplanes you can use. But that only applies to Omnibus 8s as well.
I know both instruction sets well (albeit HP's
much better). I don't find
the 21MX instructions to be any more or less like the -8 than most any other
machine out there. I suspect that the 21MX set is similar not because of
the -8 being a "forefather", but because most instruction sets have a large
number of similarities on any set of machines (except Pick virtual
assembler, that is truely a unique animal). I just can't agree that the 21MX
instruction set was derived from the 12 bit DEC stuff. There's nothing
unique about the DEC set that is in the HP set.
Very few machines other than the DEC machines and those inspired by them
use the same sort of memory addressing scheme with small pages, a bit in
the instruction to select between a global page and the current page, and
a bit for indirection. The indirect bit appeared by itself in earlier
machines, but usually they had a much different mechanism for maximizing
the utility of the addressing bits in the instruction word. HP and DG
copied it, along with much else from the DEC 12 and 18 bit machines.
Similarly with the "microprogrammed" operate instructions. AFAIK, DEC
was the first vendor to use that concept in a mass-produced electronic
computer, but they were copied by several vendors.
Ok, I have to challenge you here. Other than basic
instruction set
similarity, do you have any historical evidence that the 21xx instruction
set was derived from the DEC machines?
Only the anecdotal evidence that HP used many PDP-8s in house before they
decided to enter the computer business themselves.
But really, are you trying to claim that the HP designers were NOT
familiar with the PDP-8 family, and designed something that purely by
coincidence happened to be very architecturally similar? That seems
like an incredibly unlikely scenario. Even HP doesn't generally have
such a terrible case of NIH syndrome as to completely ignore what the
competition is doing.
11:55 p.m.
New subject: HP stuff (was HP's not cool)
I'd say everyone should look at the TX0/1/2 and other earlyb solid state
(or mostly so) computers to see where some ideas come from.
The rest of the machines represent ideas that were adopted, CDC160 (or was
it cray?) was the first truely little machine, the PDP-8 embodied that.
The idea of a monolithic backplane is not uniquely DEC and so on.
Allison
12:16 p.m.
New subject: HP stuff (was HP's not cool)
And by the way on a different thread, WCS and UCS was
a very common option
on HP 21MX's, and on at least one model it was built in.
I'm not going to pursue the discussion about HP's being "cool" or not
any
further - I feel very strongly about the subject and might lose a few
friends if I took up the argument seriously :). Dont get me wrong - I love
my DECs too. They have their own things I like better than HP. But don't say
the old HP line is just a PDP-8 wannabe/knockoff.
Jay West
Can you point me to some more info on the HP's. I learned basic on
HP2000c's but I'd like to understand the hardware design on 'em.
I guess minicomputers can kind of become a religious issue
with the DEC vs. DG, HP vs. DEC wars... I worked for DEC, taught for
a while for Concurrent (Perkin-Elmer/Interdata/Masscomp) and Pyramid
and did support for Alliant and service on IBM Series 1's.
All I can say is the mini's were very diverse and very culturally
different (as were the companies). I figure it's a topic for one hell
of a history dissertation or a book.
Alliant was full of the folks from DG and DEC and that was quite
interesting. I found some interesting similarities between
Interdata/Perkin Elmer's Multiplexer (MUX) Bus and DEC's Unibus.
Rumor has it some ex-Interdata folks went to work for DEC
and took some ideas with them (and un-Muxed the mux bus to get the
Unibus).
There was some bad blood between the two companies. DEC PDP8's
(8E and 8A) did the chip insertion of the Perkin Elmer boards,
but they supposedly hid the 8's behind fake Perkin Elmer front panels
at one point so no one would know they had DEC hardware in house.
(and the Litton tester had a uVax in it... and there was a PDP11 in
another big $ piece of test equipment...)
The only thing the mini field service engineers usually had in common
was a serious dislike for the white shirt, blue suit, red tie IBM
mainframe CE's who wouldn't even answer a polite "Good evening..."
comment.
(I was later told by my CE when I worked for IBM was that at one time there
was a corporate edict which could get an IBMer fired for something like
fraternization 8-)
Still -- I think the mainframe guys did look down their noses at us mini
guys like we looked down at copier techs...
(Why was it that printer and copier techs are looked down at by senior techies
in almost any department... The hardest stuff to fix is always the
mechanical and servo based stuff, disks, tapes, printers -- and the
glory always goes to the CPU weenie with the biggest mips.)
Bill
an ex-mini generalist who served as the backup tape specialist.
9 tracks forever!
---
bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org
Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC,
The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check.
1:46 p.m.
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1:36 p.m.
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11:53 a.m.
New subject: HP's -- slick stuff, high price. Great mechanicals
I'm not talking about I/O cables that are many
feet long between a card and
an external device, nor cables under two inches between just a few boards
in the same backplane.
I'm talking about using over-the-edge cabling for bussing signals between
many cards in the same backplane, and that's what I was referring to the
book about. This was done in the PDP-6, IIRC, and they decided that it
was a maintenance nightmare. If HP somehow made this scheme work reliably
and somehow kept it from being a headache to troubleshoot, I'd be interested
in hearing how they did it. Obviously HP must not have thought it was
a particularly great technique, since they generally aren't using it today.
The answer is get the machine down to 6 boards in less than a foot of
length with one aproximately 50 pin cable.
Worked fine.
They built a nice clean maintainable box. The PDP6 was a transistorized
machine with much more cables needed than the HP mini.
We're talking an early to mid 70's design vs. a late 70's to early 80's
design. Apples and oranges. The hp looked a lot cleaner than the
11/44 or 11/70 and seemed much smaller in number of boards and simpler
in layout of signals.
Bill
---
bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org
Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC,
The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check.
12:20 p.m.
New subject: HP's -- slick stuff, high price. Great mechanicals
Rumor has it that Eric Smith may have mentioned these words:
Obviously HP must not have thought it was
a particularly great technique, since they generally aren't using it today.
I disagree with the "obviously" part of things... Zip chips were a great
idea, but they're not in use anymore, as SMD parts offer greater density
(at the expense of replacability - you can socket a zip chip, but SMD
memory is swapped by the stick nowadays) EPROM's were a great idea and
were (and still are) in use for a *long* time, but Flash is easier to use
in the field or at the customer's site (not to mention flash-upgradable
BIOS's in PC's are a nice feature).
Model T's (both the car & the computer) set many, many records, yet very
few of either are in full use today because they've been superceded by
newer/faster/smaller equipment (note: "better" is not in that list.. ;-)
Just because something isn't in widespread use today, doesn't mean it
wasn't (or isn't) a great idea.
(Of course, a corollary to that might be: "Because WinBlows is so
widespread and is in use today, it must be a great product!" Hogwash.)
As always, IMHO...
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig.
If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead
disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.
21 Nov
21 Nov
6 p.m.
New subject: HP 21xx vs DEC PDP-8 architecture (was Re: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue))
"Jay West" <west(a)tseinc.com> wrote:
I dearly love my PDP-8E, but I truely believe the
architecture on the HP
21MX line to be far more elegant. Not necessarily superior, but certainly
more elegant. Just my own biased opinion....
Not even particularly more elegant. In a general sense, the architecture is
the SAME. Aside from changing the word size to 16 bits (which is either
two fewer or four more bits than comparable DEC machines), the only big
enhancement is the provision of a second accumulator.
Even the memory addressing works the same way: one bit of memory reference
instructions selects page zero vs. current page, and one bit enables
indirection. The non-memory-reference instructions are
"microcoded" in the same manner as the DEC 12-bit and 18-bit computer
families.
All of HP's clever and original architectural design went into the HP 9100
programmable calculator and the HP 3000 stack-based computer. The HP 21xx
were just a me-too design; Either HP was trying to build a wider PDP-5 or
PDP-8, or a narrower PDP-9.
5:40 a.m.
New subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue)
At 03:35 PM
11/20/1999 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote:
I think I'll drop a 9845 on Zane the next time I go to Portland!
Joe
Oh, and get with the program, PDP's are cool, HP's aren't :^)
10:41 a.m.
New subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue)
At 11:40 AM 11/21/99 -0800, Zane muttered:
But their naming conventions are even worse than
DEC's! So what the &&&&
is a 9845?
It's a BIG calculator. The CPU looks like a huge Commie 64 and weighs
about 80 pounds. The monitor adds about 50 pounds more. Then add in a
couple of 8" disk drives at 35 pounds each and a HP-IB plotter that weighs
100 pounds and is the size of a kitchen table. Well you get the idea! Of
course since it's HP-IB, there's all kinds of interesting peripherals and
instruments you can hang on it.
Joe
20 Nov
20 Nov
2:25 p.m.
At 03:35 PM 11/20/99 -0800, you wrote:
I can't help with that one! Wrong coast, wrong country!
At 11:31 PM
11/19/99 -0500, CZ wrote:
Vancouver BC. Can anyone save this thing? I'm on the wrong
coast.
I don't know. Where is it?
Joe (in Florida) and who just abandoned an 11/34.
Oh, and get with the program, PDP's are cool, HP's aren't :^)
Zane
Zane,
Bite your tongue!
Joe
21 Nov
21 Nov
1:36 a.m.
Zane wrote...
Oh, and get with the program, PDP's are cool,
HP's aren't :^)
I must agree with Zane. HP's aren't cool at all. I wouldn't recommend anyone
collect them. They're just not interesting.
I agree with Zane so much, that I would be willing to help out those who
have gone astray and obtained any HP 21MX M/E/F or 2100 items. I will take
them away so they can't be an influence on you, and help re-educated you so
that you only seek non-HP items for your collection. My patented process
includes hours of forcing you to watch alternating light patterns of light
brown/dark brown and light purple/dark purple. My hope is that all who have
fallen down into admiring HP gear will soon get to the point where anytime
they see any HP gear they'll call me to get it out of their sight before
they become tempted by Demon HP.
Don't worry HP'ers, I'm here to save your soul - Really! <grin>
Jay West
HP Evangelist
9150
days inactive
9165
days old
55 comments
19 participants
participants (19)
-
af-list＠is1.wfi-inc.com -
allisonp＠world.std.com -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bobstek＠ix.netcom.com -
bqt＠Update.UU.SE -
cz＠bronze.lcs.mit.edu -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
jimw＠agora.rdrop.com -
mark＠cs.ualberta.ca -
mcquiggi＠sfu.ca -
nerdware＠laidbak.com -
pechter＠pechter.dyndns.org -
rachael_＠gmx.net -
rigdonj＠intellistar.net -
transit＠primenet.com -
vaxman＠uswest.net -
west＠tseinc.com -
zmerch＠30below.com