21 Oct
2007
21 Oct
'07
5:43 p.m.
That was the first one I had - the overlays inside were, IIRC, printed
tissue paper.
Me too. I still remember how I would forget that they were not
symmetric, so if you put them in backwards the separators between
the output values and the plastic separators between the lights
don't line up.
Mine
died of corrosion on the contacts, and was (regrettably)
trashed, I'm pretty sure.
I remember the contacts weren't great on the best of days. I think my
step-mother threw mine out when she decided my room was too messy.
:-( My only real complaint with it as a teaching tool was
that even though
I did all the projects, there was no abstraction of the underlying
concepts presented.
I agree. They also didn't do a good job of clarifying that the
device only implemented combinatorial logic. As I recall, I got
it before the idea of a stored program really clicked with me.
Unless I missed it, they didn't have a discussion in the manual
that said, this "computer" does this, but real computers also
have memory that stores not only data, but instructions too.
BLS
22 Oct
22 Oct
3:08 p.m.
My only real
complaint with it as a teaching tool was that even though
I did all the projects, there was no abstraction of the underlying
concepts presented.
I agree. They also didn't do a good job of clarifying that the
device only implemented combinatorial logic. As I recall, I got 
6:03 p.m.
New subject: Tandy Logix-Kosmos
Tony Duell wrote:
CL kits. These were computer educational kits. The
basic module was a
plastic box with 3 input sockets, one output socket (with a lamp to
monitor the sate) and 8 'programming' sockets. By wiring up the latter
appropriately you could get the module to act as any 3-input gate. If
you wanted a flip-flop, you could either corss-couple 2 modules, or feed
the ouptut back to an input on the same module programmed as an AND-OR gate.
I assume this is transistor not relay logic.
Alas the smallest kit (all I have) only contaiend 2
logic modules and one
battery/input switch module, whuch wasn't enough to do much with.
That was the problem with all the computer trainers, they were too
small, even the ones with a cpu in them.
-tony
4:58 p.m.
New subject: Tandy Logix-Kosmos
Tony Duell wrote:
Actually, it's TTL chips. IIRC the kits came out in the mid-1970s.
There's a schematic of the logic module in the manual (one of the frw
pages I can understand, since the manual is in German, but a schematic is
much the same in any language). There are 3 chips in the module, all with
Philis-type numbers. An FJH241 (looks like a 7404), FJH151 (7451) and
FJH231 (7401)
Here's a breif circuit description :
Call the 3 inputs A, B, C. They each go to a chain of 2 NOT gates ('04),
producing buffered A, A/ B, B/, C, C/ signals. C and C/ go to programming
sockets (outputs) on the module. 2 other programming sockets are '1'
(left open, this module makes the worrying assumption that a floating TTL
input is a '1') and '0' (tird to ground).
The next stage uses 2-wide 2-input AOI gates. For each gate, onr AND gate
is eanbled by B, the other B/ The other inputs to the AND gates (4 in
total) got to the f1...f4 prgramming sockets. The outputs of the AOIs go
to a pair of '01 gats, the other inputs of those go to the A and A/
signals. Then the outputs of those NANDs are commoned (and pulled up by a
resisotr), that then goes to another stage ('01s again) where you can
connect a capacitor to slow the module down (to make a clock oscillator,
for ecxample), then to the F output socket and to the transitor that
drives the lamp.
To summarise, most the module is a 4-input mux controlled by the A and B
inputs, with the output going (via a delay) to the F output. The inputs
to the muc are the f1...f4 programming sockets. You patch those either
high, low, or to C or C/ in the well-known way. So you can make any
3-input gate from the module.
The section immediately befroe the schematic in the manual gives the
method of working out the pathing for a given logic function by drawing
up the truth table, dividing it into pairs of lines, then calling a pair
that's 00 a low, a 11 a high, a 10 a C/ and a 01 a C. Then patch
appropriately. Or at least I think that's what it's saying, as I said
it's in German.
For most of the later experiments in the book you get separate diagrams
for the patching of each module and the wiring between the modules. Also
it appears you get an explanation of _why_ the patching is done that way.
In the back of the manual are some sheets which I think you were supposed
to cut out and put on the modules. They give a patching diagram for a
particular gste and a diagram of the conventional gate symbol and name
with the input and output lines extended to the sockets on the module (if
you see what I mean).
It appears there was another module, included in one of the add-on kits
(I don't have one). It was yellow in colour, but otherwise looked the
same as the logic module. In fact it contained the same logic circuit.
but with a msall relay in place of the lamp. The contacts of the relay
were wired to a 3.5mm jack socket mounted in the 'lamp hole' on the
module case, you got a cable with a suitable plug on one end and bare
wires at the other in the kit. It appears you could use that to control
small lamps, motors, etc from your logic designs.
CL kits. These were computer educational kits.
The basic module was a
plastic box with 3 input sockets, one output socket (with a lamp to
monitor the sate) and 8 'programming' sockets. By wiring up the latter
appropriately you could get the module to act as any 3-input gate. If
you wanted a flip-flop, you could either corss-couple 2 modules, or feed
the ouptut back to an input on the same module programmed as an AND-OR gate.
I assume this is transistor not relay logic. Alas the smallest kit (all I have) only contaiend
2 logic modules and one
battery/input switch module, whuch wasn't enough to do much with.
That was the problem with all the computer trainers, they were too
small, even the ones with a cpu in them. 
25 Oct
25 Oct
12:50 a.m.
New subject: Tandy Logix-Kosmos
Tony Duell schrieb:
Actually, it's TTL chips. IIRC the kits came out
in the mid-1970s.
There's a schematic of the logic module in the manual (one of the frw
pages I can understand, since the manual is in German, but a schematic is
much the same in any language). There are 3 chips in the module, all with
Philis-type numbers. An FJH241 (looks like a 7404), FJH151 (7451) and
FJH231 (7401)
Actually, they don't just look like the mentioned 74xx equivalents, they
are almost (FJH241 is rather 5404).
This xxxNNN convention was some European attempt to standardize the
various logic families in the 70s;
I think this came from JEDEC as a joint venture of Siemens, Philips, and
some other vendors).
The idea was basically to have the first letter to describe the logic
family, the second a temperature range or
a sub family (e.g. Z=noise immune logic with 12Vcc), the third a
functional category. The three digit number then
refers to the actual circuit. So, an FLH101 was a TTL (F) with
temperature range 0..70degC (L), and
combinational circuit (H). The number here refers to 4 totem pole NAND-2
gates -> so this is the well-known 7400.
J in the third place denotes some flip flop or counter, K is a monoflop,
L is a decoder (e.g. 74141, 7445, 7447).
I have to look up the complete convention in some old Siemens data books.
Almost all of these Fxx types directly map to 49xxx, 54xx, 74xx, and
75xxx types.
This numbering scheme apparently wasn't very successful, and was
silently dropped some years later.
--
Holger
7 Nov
7 Nov
3:49 p.m.
New subject: Tandy Logix-Kosmos
Tony Duell schrieb:
I think the difference between 74xx and 54xx is totally irrelevant here.
Nobody is going to try to use these Philips educational modules at
anything but normal room temperature.
Thinking back, I seem to recall one of the modules failed at one point.
The AND-OR-Invert chip had died. I replaced it with, I think, a 74LS51
(again, near enough) with no problems at all.
Actually, it's TTL chips. IIRC the kits came
out in the mid-1970s.
There's a schematic of the logic module in the manual (one of the frw
pages I can understand, since the manual is in German, but a schematic is
much the same in any language). There are 3 chips in the module, all with
Philis-type numbers. An FJH241 (looks like a 7404), FJH151 (7451) and
FJH231 (7401)
Actually, they don't just look like the mentioned 74xx equivalents, they
are almost (FJH241 is rather 5404). This xxxNNN convention was some European attempt to
standardize the
various logic families in the 70s;
I think this came from JEDEC as a joint venture of Siemens, Philips, and
some other vendors).
The idea was basically to have the first letter to describe the logic
family, the second a temperature range or
a sub family (e.g. Z=noise immune logic with 12Vcc), the third a
functional category. The three digit number then
refers to the actual circuit. So, an FLH101 was a TTL (F) with
temperature range 0..70degC (L), and
combinational circuit (H). The number here refers to 4 totem pole NAND-2
gates -> so this is the well-known 7400.
J in the third place denotes some flip flop or counter, K is a monoflop,
L is a decoder (e.g. 74141, 7445, 7447).
I have to look up the complete convention in some old Siemens data books.
I have at least one old Mullard (==Philips :-)) databook containing ICs
with these numbers. I'd be interested in seeing the coding, though, I
think I have soem 'FCH161' chips in the spares box...
-tony
8 Nov
8 Nov
10:54 a.m.
New subject: Tandy Logix-Kosmos
Tony Duell said:
More on this:
The above convention was named ProElectron standard or ProElectron naming
convention. It is still survivu?ng in European analog circuits used in
consumer products like TV sets.
I digged out an incomplete document which describes a bit of this:
http://www.nxp.com/acrobat_download/various/HBPROEL.pdf
This does not talk about the historic series like FL, or FC, or FZ, but
ProElectron is some starting point for that to look for them.
--
This xxxNNN convention was some European attempt to standardize the
various logic families in the 70s;
I think this came from JEDEC as a joint venture of Siemens, Philips, and
some other vendors).
The idea was basically to have the first letter to describe the logic
family, the second a temperature range or
a sub family (e.g. Z=noise immune logic with 12Vcc), the third a
functional category. The three digit number then
refers to the actual circuit. So, an FLH101 was a TTL (F) with
temperature range 0..70degC (L), and
combinational circuit (H). The number here refers to 4 totem pole NAND-2
gates -> so this is the well-known 7400.
J in the third place denotes some flip flop or counter, K is a monoflop,
L is a decoder (e.g. 74141, 7445, 7447).
I have to look up the complete convention in some old Siemens data
books.
I have at least one old Mullard (==Philips :-)) databook containing ICs
with these numbers. I'd be interested in seeing the coding, though, I
think I have soem 'FCH161' chips in the spares box...
1:18 p.m.
New subject: Tandy Logix-Kosmos
Holger Veit said:
[...]
And finally:
http://www.eeca.org/data/File/PE/D15%20final%20version%202007_06.pdf
So I was partly wrong: for digital circuits, the first two letters are a
manufacturer's designator. The 'FC' in the above denotes Philips, 'FL'
for
instance is Siemens/Infineon.
To add insult to the injury: the same, in this case TTL, circuit has
different names. I found the following, incomplete cross reference table
in a 1973 Siemens data book:
Philips Siemens TI
FJH101 FLH131 SN7430
FJH111 FLH121 SN7420
FJH121 FLH111 SN7410
FJH131 FLH101 SN7400
FJH141 FLH141 SN7440
FJH151 FLH151 SN7450
FJH161 FLH161 SN7451
FJH171 FLH171 SN7453
FJH181 FLH181 SN7454
FJH191 FLH221 SN7480
FJH201 FLH231 SN7482
FJH211 FLH241 SN7483
FJH221 FLH191 SN7402
FJH231 FLH201 SN7401
FJH241 FLH211 SN7404
FJH251 FLH271 SN7405
FJJ101 FLJ101 SN7470
FJJ111 FLJ111 SN7472
FJJ121 FLJ121 SN7473
FJJ131 FLJ141 SN7474
FJJ141 FLJ161 SN7490A
FJJ181 FLJ151 SN7475
FJJ191 FLJ131 SN7476
FJJ211 FLJ181 SN7493A
FJJ231 FLJ191 SN7495A
FJJ251 FLJ171 SN7492A
FJL101 FLL101 SN74141
FJY101 FLY101 SN7460
There are many more relations between Siemens FL* types and the standard
74/84/49 circuits.
--
Holger
I have at
least one old Mullard (==Philips :-)) databook containing ICs
with these numbers. I'd be interested in seeing the coding, though, I
think I have soem 'FCH161' chips in the spares box...
More on this:
The above convention was named ProElectron standard or ProElectron naming
convention. It is still survivu?ng in European analog circuits used in
consumer products like TV sets.
I digged out an incomplete document which describes a bit of this:
http://www.nxp.com/acrobat_download/various/HBPROEL.pdf
This does not talk about the historic series like FL, or FC, or FZ, but
ProElectron is some starting point for that to look for them.
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participants (4)
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ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
blstuart＠bellsouth.net -
holger.veit＠iais.fraunhofer.de