7 Oct
2005
7 Oct
'05
5:11 p.m.
Subject: Re: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density?
From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 16:34:17 -0700 (PDT)
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
BOTH.
The 55F is "720K" only; 55G and GFR are 1.2M.
The 55GFR is a reliable and versatile drive.
FD55A single sided 48tpi 300rpm
FD55B Two sided 48tpi 300 rpm
FD55E single sided 96tpi 300rpm
FD55F two sided 96tpi 300rpm
FD55G two sides 96tpi 300/360rpm
It is not so good with hard-sectored, or NO-index
reading.
Works great with NS* hard sector controller at 300rpm.
The difference between 1.2M and "720K",
sometimes called "QUAD density" by
the marketing people, are 360 v 300 RPM, 250K v 500K sata transfer rate,
and different current levels at the heads (controlleable on the
interface). They are both 96TPI.
QD is for those systems that DD was 360k (48tpi). QD system could be 720k,
780k(amproLB).
To do "quad" in an "HD" drive
requires stepping at 96TPI, but the data
transfer rate, and current levels at "360K" levels.
Or the common QD systems I have the data rate is same as DD (still 300rpm)
but there are twice as many tracks or quad. 5.25 floppies started at 80k
(sa400 single density one side 40 tracks (48tpi) all the way to near 800k
(FD55F, DD, two sides 96tpi). There were enough marketing names to the
capacity jumps to confuse even the marketers. however once the data rates
hit DD there were SSDD(160K raw), DSDD(400k raw) and then DSQD(800k raw)
and there was even a SSQD(400K raw) (yep 96tpi DD data rate and only one side).
that last one was know widely as RX50 and also appeared using FD55E on
Visual 1050. There was the 1.2mb PC thing.
This is why 5.25 floppy was so much confusion as it morphed from the 35 track
SA400 through the FD55GFR.
There there were the formats applied.. [open can, worms!, run!]
Allison
7 Oct
7 Oct
5:30 p.m.
On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Allison wrote:
not always so happy with some of the poorly designed flux-transition
adapters for PCs ("Apple Turnover"). And, if you need to suppress index
pulse (to read certain far from spec WD formats on 765, interrupt the
signal in the cable, NOT by covering index hole.
FD55A single sided 48tpi 300rpm
FD55B Two sided 48tpi 300 rpm
FD55E single sided 96tpi 300rpm
FD55F two sided 96tpi 300rpm
FD55G two sides 96tpi 300/360rpm
and a few "sub-models" with various minor differences.
It is not so
good with hard-sectored, or NO-index reading.
Works great with NS* hard sector
controller at 300rpm. QD is for those systems that DD was 360k (48tpi). QD
system could be 720k,
780k(amproLB).
also 800K (5*1024, 10 * 512, etc.), and 640K (16*256, 8* 512
(supported by
XP!!! (/t:80/N:8))).
And, there were a few oddball systems that ran 70 or 77 tracks, instead of
80.
hit DD there were SSDD(160K raw), DSDD(400k raw) and
then DSQD(800k raw)
depending on your definition of "raw"
~250K, ~500K, ~1000K unformatted capacity.
and there was even a SSQD(400K raw) (yep 96tpi DD data
rate and only one side).
This is why 5.25 floppy was so much confusion as it
morphed from the 35 track
SA400 through the FD55GFR.
YEP!
There there were the formats applied.. [open can,
worms!, run!]
OK, we'll try not to go there
5:55 p.m.
A fair number of 55F's had head-load solenoids.
'Way back when PC-AT's and AT-clones had more-or-less standardized BIOS
conventions, I wrote a little DOS TSR that would allow a 1.2M 5.25" to masquerade as
a 3.5" 720K drive. It seemed silly not to take advantage of the native capabilities
of the 5.25" drive and make the 720K 96 tpi possible on DSDD diskettes.
Some "clone" BIOSes didn't require a special TSR to read 720K 5.25"
diskettes, but the IBM PC-AT did. When the various clone makers started to reassign the
meaning of the bits at 40:90 and 40:91, this scheme became broken and it was simpler to
employ a device driver that manipulated the 765 directly.
When we were devising forensics exercises for the law enforcement community in the early
days, we used to pass out an exercise on a 360K diskette, with innocent decoy data written
on the even-numbered tracks and a complete second 360K image with the incriminating
evidence on the odd-numbered tracks.
Somewhat OT: I find that commodity 1.44MB diskettes are far more reliable when used as
DS2D media. Just cover over the "window" with some opaque tape or one of those
"write protect" tabs from a box of 5.25" diskettes (or "write
enable" tabs from a box of 8" diskettes).
Sadly, although XP will read them, it will no longer format them.
Time marches on...
Cheers,
Chuck
6:08 p.m.
On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Somewhat OT: I find that commodity 1.44MB diskettes
are far more reliable when used as DS2D media. Just cover over the "window"
with some opaque tape or one of those "write protect" tabs from a box of
5.25" diskettes (or "write enable" tabs from a box of 8" diskettes).
Sadly, although XP will read them, it will no longer format them.
Have you tried FORMAT A: /T:80/N:9 from the command line?
/F (/F:2, /F:720) is gone :-(
and Windoze Explode doesn't provide much options.
... and the "phantom" B: drive seems to be gone :-(
On at least SOME machines, I've been able to Format 720K
7:43 p.m.
On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 18:08:23 -0700 (PDT)
Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote:
**odd look**
What's this Windows XP? (I'm still managing to be totally agnostic to
it)
What was the rationale in abandoning a diskette format? Does XP also
not support 5-1/4" drives??
Actually, I am still slowly getting over my long painful struggle to get
two floppy drives enabled on a Dell Optiplex system. There's support
for a second floppy in the BIOS but it appears the hardware support is
entirely missing. I had to just do away with the 3-1/2" disk to get a
5-1/4" disk installed in one of my (many, since I get them for < $5 all
kitted out with Pentium III processors) beloved (!!??!!) Optiplex boxes.
Was there THAT much savings in not including hardware support for two
floppies, DELL? Why not patch settings for the second drive out of the
BIOS so we don't pound our heads against the wall trying??
Somewhat OT: I find that commodity 1.44MB
diskettes are far more
reliable when used as DS2D media. Just cover over the "window" with
some opaque tape or one of those "write protect" tabs from a box of
5.25" diskettes (or "write enable" tabs from a box of 8" diskettes).
Sadly, although XP will read them, it will no longer format them.
Have you tried FORMAT A: /T:80/N:9 from the command line?
/F (/F:2, /F:720) is gone :-(
and Windoze Explode doesn't provide much options.
... and the "phantom" B: drive seems to be gone :-(
On at least SOME machines, I've been able to Format 720K
8:08 p.m.
On 10/7/2005 at 9:43 PM Scott Stevens wrote:
Actually, I am still slowly getting over my long
painful struggle to get
two floppy drives enabled on a Dell Optiplex system. There's support
for a second floppy in the BIOS but it appears the hardware support is
entirely missing.
Sounds like Dell, all right. Shave a few cents here and there.
You know, the old Sony 3.5" drives did have one particular advantage over both
8" and 5.25' media--they spun at 600 RPM. (Yes, I know that 600 RPM 5.25'
drives exist for duplicator use, but the Sony drives were stock).
--Chuck
9:51 p.m.
<snip>
<snip>
Actually, I am still slowly getting over my long painful struggle to get
two floppy drives enabled on a Dell Optiplex system. There's support
for a second floppy in the BIOS but it appears the hardware support is
entirely missing. I had to just do away with the 3-1/2" disk to get a
5-1/4" disk installed in one of my (many, since I get them for < $5 all
kitted out with Pentium III processors) beloved (!!??!!) Optiplex boxes.
Was there THAT much savings in not including hardware support for two
floppies, DELL? Why not patch settings for the second drive out of the
BIOS so we don't pound our heads against the wall trying??
I'm curious about the comment about second drive support missing. I
am curious
why the addition of a proper multiheaded cable doesnt
fix this?
they actually dont drive the drive select in the cable?
Just curious
11:34 p.m.
On 10/7/2005 at 9:51 PM jim stephens wrote:
I don't believe so--Dell sells the Optiplex floppy with a formed cable as a single
unit. Here's a photo:
http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/images/products/large/340-8737.jpg
While the second floppy select probably exists on some pin in the support chipset, I
don't think that Dell ever intended that more than one floppy would be used and so
probably never wired the header for it.
I suppose one could install an IDE LS120 as a second drive or just plug in one of those
brain-dead USB drives (I've seen a USB driver for DOS somewhere).
Cheers,
Chuck
I'm
curious about the comment about second drive support missing. I
am curious why the
addition of a proper multiheaded cable doesnt
fix this?
they actually dont drive the drive select in the cable?
Just curious 
8 Oct
8 Oct
6:58 a.m.
On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 23:34:41 -0700
"Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
On 10/7/2005 at 9:51 PM jim stephens wrote:
I don't believe so--Dell sells the Optiplex floppy with a formed cable
as a single unit. Here's a photo:
http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/images/products/large/340-8737.jpg
While the second floppy select probably exists on some pin in the
support chipset, I don't think that Dell ever intended that more than
one floppy would be used and so probably never wired the header for
it.
I can say semi-definitively that something serious is missing in the
logic. I haven't probed into the signals, but a second drive installed
on a connector crimped on before the twist at the end is found by the
BIOS and appears as a device in 'Windows Explorer' but does NOT work.
I'm
curious about the comment about second drive support missing. I
am curious why the
addition of a proper multiheaded cable doesnt
fix this?
they actually dont drive the drive select in the cable?
Just curious
9:37 a.m.
New subject: Adding another floppy (Was: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density?
On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I suppose one could install an IDE LS120 as a second
drive or just plug in one of those brain-dead USB drives (I've seen a USB driver for
DOS somewhere).
... or a SCSI "Floptical" (also handles 1.4M),
or MicroSolutions "Backpack" external parallel port floppy (my 2.8m one
has been pretty reliable),
or a second floppy controller (at an alternate address if you can't fully
disable the internal one),
or a manual toggle switch on the drive select lines (OK for drives that
you don't use often, such as 3" or 3.25"),
there were software controlled drive select switches available for adding
some of the floppy port tape drives - some of those CAN be used to switch
additional floppies.
NOTE: MS-DOS is not happy about attempts to have more than 26 drive
letters (although at least one earlier version supported up to 63)
9:50 a.m.
New subject: Adding another floppy (Was: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density?
Fred Cisin wrote:
On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote:
NOTE: MS-DOS is not happy about attempts to have more than 26 drive
letters (although at least one earlier version supported up to 63)
I could never figure why windows only expected 1 drive -- C:
When I used dos the problem was pached DOS's to support
more than 32 MEG of data. My gripe with windows it does not
support back of the system, but only what it thinks you need
backed up. DOS you could back up.
10:01 a.m.
New subject: Adding another floppy (Was: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density?
On 10/8/2005 at 9:37 AM Fred Cisin wrote:
... or a SCSI "Floptical" (also handles
1.4M),
or MicroSolutions "Backpack" external parallel port floppy (my 2.8m one
has been pretty reliable),
or a second floppy controller (at an alternate address if you can't fully
disable the internal one),
or a manual toggle switch on the drive select lines (OK for drives that
you don't use often, such as 3" or 3.25"),
there were software controlled drive select switches available for adding
some of the floppy port tape drives - some of those CAN be used to switch
additional floppies.
The moment you start talking about non-DOS OS support hings like the parallel-port drives
and secondary controllers run into trouble with finding drivers to support them. The
"flopticals" like the LS-120 on SCSI (or even an old Teac FD-235S SCSI floppy)
have a problem in that they pretty much all assume 512 or 1024 byte sectors with very
regular addressing (like every USB drive I've ever seen), so they can't be used
for importing "foreign" media--and many DOS-based programs don't understand
them at all.
The current crop of Dell Optiplexes have no ISA slots at all, which makes any sort of
add-in floppy controller a bit of a problem.
Oddly, it may be cheapest and more expedient to simply trash the motherboard in the Dell,
stripping off the CPU and RAM and refit the box with another maker's motherboard with
full support (and an ISA slot or four).
Cheers,
Chuck
3 Nov
3 Nov
6:49 p.m.
New subject: anadisk/teledisk/xenocopy/imagedisk
Chuck Guzis,
With all of your well informed tales, I thought I'd have a go and google you --
and I see that you are the author of anadisk.
It hasn't been discussed here in a while, but in the past the legal status of
using anadisk (and teledisk) for non profit (hobbyist) uses has been in debated.
NTI's web site says:
This software can be used to hide data and to duplicate
copy protected diskettes. Because of this, distribution
of the software is restricted and not made available to
the general public.
Can you clarify: what is the scoop? Was there an earlier version that had a
liberal use policy, or has it always been a no-no to use? If there was such a
version, what is the most recent legal version to use?
It is funny that the list has the authors of xenocopy (fred cisin), anadisk
(chuck guzis), and the up-n-comer imagedisk (dave dunfield). I wonder why the
author of teledisk isn't here. :-)
Thanks.
8:19 p.m.
New subject: anadisk/teledisk/xenocopy/imagedisk
On 11/3/2005 at 8:49 PM Jim Battle wrote:
Chuck Guzis,
With all of your well informed tales, I thought I'd have a go and google
you --
and I see that you are the author of anadisk.
...and a bunch of other stuff, including TeleDisk, CopyQM, 22Disk, etc.
The status of TeleDisk and AnaDisk and CopyQM is entirely up to NTI Armor
who has owned them since mid-1999. I can't contribute much else, as I'm
under an NDA as part of the terms of sale.
Hope that helps--or not.
Cheers,
Chuck
8:20 p.m.
New subject: anadisk/teledisk/xenocopy/imagedisk
On 11/3/2005 at 8:49 PM Jim Battle wrote:
With all of your well informed tales, I thought I'd
have a go and google
you --
and I see that you are the author of anadisk.
You probably also discovered that I play the tuba.
Yeah, I know, it's a vice, but nobody's perfect.
Cheers,
Chuck
9:13 p.m.
New subject: anadisk/teledisk/xenocopy/imagedisk
On Thu, 3 Nov 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote:
You probably also discovered that I play the tuba.
Yeah, I know, it's a vice, but nobody's perfect.
I stopped playing the tuba 40 years ago.
My hearing is way too bad to subject anybody to listening to it.
OTOH, my sister is a professional concert French Horn player.
I still hold all the IP assets for XenoCopy, etc.
I won't be releasing them to PD, at least for a while,
but I'll upgrade any copies that anybody on the list has to the last
outdated version from the 90's without manual for free.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
9:22 p.m.
New subject: anadisk/teledisk/xenocopy/imagedisk
On 11/3/2005 at 9:13 PM Fred Cisin wrote:
I still hold all the IP assets for XenoCopy, etc.
I won't be releasing them to PD, at least for a while,
but I'll upgrade any copies that anybody on the list has to the last
outdated version from the 90's without manual for free.
The purchase terms for AD, TD, 22D and CQ allow us to upgrade existing
customers to whatever we had as of mid-1999. We can do that via email at
no charge.
Cheers,
Chuck
9:27 p.m.
New subject: anadisk/teledisk/xenocopy/imagedisk
On 11/3/2005 at 9:13 PM Fred Cisin wrote:
I stopped playing the tuba 40 years ago.
My hearing is way too bad to subject anybody to listening to it.
I took up the tuba in 1997, being a nearsighted piano player since I was a
kid. My wife encouraged me to take up an instrument that I could be more
"sociable" with.
I'm still nearsighted, but since then, I've also learned double bass and am
setting my sights on learning viola this year. Just another noise to
torment the dogs...
Are musically-minded people still as commonplace in the computer business
as they once were?
Cheers,
Chuck
4 Nov
4 Nov
4 a.m.
New subject: anadisk/teledisk/xenocopy/imagedisk
On 11/3/2005 at 9:13 PM Fred Cisin wrote:
Are musically-minded people still as commonplace in the computer business
as they once were?
Probably. I know a lot of people who play second fiddle :-)
Mostly to their wives...
Nico
5:38 a.m.
New subject: anadisk/teledisk/xenocopy/imagedisk
Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 11/3/2005 at 9:13 PM Fred Cisin wrote:
I took operatic singing lessons for thirteen years. I'm a large-range
tenor.
Still sing sometimes. Thinking about singing seriously for the first
time in a few years.
Peace... Sridhar
I stopped playing the tuba 40 years ago.
My hearing is way too bad to subject anybody to listening to it.
I took up the tuba in 1997, being a nearsighted piano player since I was a
kid. My wife encouraged me to take up an instrument that I could be more
"sociable" with.
I'm still nearsighted, but since then, I've also learned double bass and am
setting my sights on learning viola this year. Just another noise to
torment the dogs...
Are musically-minded people still as commonplace in the computer business
as they once were? 
5:50 a.m.
New subject: anadisk/teledisk/xenocopy/imagedisk
Chuck Guzis wrote:
> Are musically-minded people still as commonplace
in the computer
> business
> as they once were?
You should have a look at the population of the music software IRC
channels. I hang about in #lad and #ardour on freenode, where there is a
very broad range of people with different musical interests and abilities.
For my part, I started off as a guitarist, learned to play bass as well,
found that from those two it was an easy jump to the 'cello, and have
dabbled in synthesizers for many years too. Oh, and bagpipes ;-)
Gordon.
6:13 a.m.
New subject: anadisk/teledisk/xenocopy/imagedisk
Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 11/3/2005 at 9:13 PM Fred Cisin wrote:
Probably. At least among the geeks I know it is.
I played violin (parents' choice) and steel guitar (my choice) as a
teenager, but after high school my lifestyle was too mobile to keep up
with instruments.
I love singing, too, and when I worked in the West Texas oilpatch, my
crewmates always told me I should sing tenor.
Tenor twelve miles down the road, they meant. :)
Doc
I stopped playing the tuba 40 years ago.
My hearing is way too bad to subject anybody to listening to it.
I took up the tuba in 1997, being a nearsighted piano player since I was a
kid. My wife encouraged me to take up an instrument that I could be more
"sociable" with.
I'm still nearsighted, but since then, I've also learned double bass and am
setting my sights on learning viola this year. Just another noise to
torment the dogs...
Are musically-minded people still as commonplace in the computer business
as they once were? 
7:23 a.m.
New subject: anadisk/teledisk/xenocopy/imagedisk
Heh, yeah, my singing voice makes dogs cry 5 blocks away.
I used to play Alto and Tenor Sax. Might pick it up again sometime in
the future when I get time and money. That part though, is scarce nowadays.
-John Boffemmyer IV
At 09:13 AM 11/4/2005, you wrote:
Chuck Guzis wrote:
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/161 - Release Date: 11/3/2005
On 11/3/2005 at 9:13 PM Fred Cisin wrote:
Probably. At least among the geeks I know it is.
I played violin (parents' choice) and steel guitar (my choice) as
a teenager, but after high school my lifestyle was too mobile to
keep up with instruments.
I love singing, too, and when I worked in the West Texas
oilpatch, my crewmates always told me I should sing tenor.
Tenor twelve miles down the road, they meant. :)
Doc I stopped playing the tuba 40 years ago.
My hearing is way too bad to subject anybody to listening to it.
I took up the tuba in 1997, being a nearsighted piano player since I was a
kid. My wife encouraged me to take up an instrument that I could be more
"sociable" with.
I'm still nearsighted, but since then, I've also learned double bass and am
setting my sights on learning viola this year. Just another noise to
torment the dogs...
Are musically-minded people still as commonplace in the computer business
as they once were?
6987
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23 comments
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participants (12)
-
ajp166＠bellatlantic.net -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
cclist＠sydex.com -
chenmel＠earthlink.net -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
doc＠mdrconsult.com -
frustum＠pacbell.net -
gordonjcp＠gjcp.net -
james.w.stephens＠gmail.com -
john_boffemmyer_iv＠boff-net.dhs.org -
nico＠FARUMDATA.DK -
ploopster＠gmail.com