21 Aug
2001
21 Aug
'01
8:16 a.m.
On another list, there has been a long thread about SO's and room for
the hobby. Does anyone else keep their collection set up and
functioning? Does your SO understand? I'm luck in that I have a large
room to set mine up. I currently have up and running:
NeXT TC slab, 17" Trinitron, laser printer, SCSI box, flatbed scanner
Sgi Indy, 20" Trinitron, SCSI box, Lexmark Optra with PS support
Sun Sparc 5, 20" Trintron
Mac Performa 631CD,DOS board, now just a 15" since the 20" Radius died,
StyleWriter 2500, LaserWriter II-NTX, ImageWriter II with LocalTalk
board
NeXT Cube with Dimension, 17" mono, ext CD rom, laserprinter, soon 21"
NeXT Hitachi on the Dimension
WinTel machine, 21" Mitsubishi, 19" CTX on Dual Head, Epson AL1000,
Epson Stylus 1500, Kurta digitizer, flatbed scanner
Commodore 128D, 14" RGB, MPS-803, 2 1571's running CP/M
Intel box booting BeOS, 17" monitor
Other printers and stuff: Calcomp 1043GT plotter("E" size), Zericon
PC3610 plotter ("D" size), HP LJ4si, HP OfficeJet R60, Canon BJC-4550,
Canon BJ-230, Tandy DMP-2100, Epson LQ570 (2 of them), Epson AL-1500's
(2 of them)
This doesn't even count the servers in the closet. I just took down an
Amiga 3000 that I'm selling. I also have been selling all of the Apple
II's ,Tandys and other machines that I collected. Besides, I don't want
to keep a lot of boxes in storage, they need to be used and ran.
I've told my wife she is kind of lucky. At least I don't collect
mainframes.
James
http://home.texoma.net/~jrice
21 Aug
21 Aug
8:32 a.m.
My room keeps enough set up for me to work on (a PDP-8, a dozen VAXen, pc
stuff.) However I'm working toward a 'fast access' storage system whereby
systems are packed up for storage in such a way that they can be retrieved,
activated/used, re-archived fairly quickly and smoothly. That way I can
switch active systems easily. The process consists of "blueprinting" the
system by documenting its configuration (hardware and software) thoroughly
and then packing it together as a unit.
--Chuck
At 12:16 PM 8/21/01 -0500, you wrote:
On another list, there has been a long thread about
SO's and room for
the hobby. Does anyone else keep their collection set up and
functioning? Does your SO understand?
22 Aug
22 Aug
12:21 a.m.
I am looking at KVM switches so that I can put maybe 6 or 8 systems on a
metro rack (wire shelf system, sometimes on casters) and run all of them,
or any of them I want. Mostly this would be for my livingroom "cluster" of
mixed mac and PC, where about 2 of them would be regular direct use
machines and the rest servers, firewall, and limited use floppy copy
machines.
Anybody else using KVM switches? suggestions?
I have an old electronic KVM and even some 3 piece cable sets, but I am
edging toward maybe a used Belkin omniview or whatever they are called.
9:18 a.m.
It was thus said that the Great Mike Ford once stated:
Anybody else using KVM switches? suggestions?
I have an old electronic KVM and even some 3 piece cable sets, but I am
edging toward maybe a used Belkin omniview or whatever they are called.
I'm using a Belkin that was given to me and it's fairly nice, but
sometimes it doesn't register the keystrokes to switch screens (Scroll-lock
twice, then it beeps, then another key sequence to select the machine).
Also, there seems to be some problems using the mouse and Linux (but you may
have to play around with that).
-spc (The Belkins can also be chained together, which is nice if you
have an insane number of machines 8-)
11:01 a.m.
It was thus said that the Great Mike Ford once
stated:
I thought that key sequence was only used for the OmniView SE 2 port
KVM. The 4 port OmniView I have uses CTRL-SHIFT-ALT + console # + ENTER
to change consoles.
g.
Anybody else using KVM switches? suggestions?
I have an old electronic KVM and even some 3 piece cable sets, but I am
edging toward maybe a used Belkin omniview or whatever they are called.
I'm using a Belkin that was given to me and it's fairly nice, but
sometimes it doesn't register the keystrokes to switch screens (Scroll-lock
twice, then it beeps, then another key sequence to select the machine).
Also, there seems to be some problems using the mouse and Linux (but you may
have to play around with that).
-spc (The Belkins can also be chained together, which is nice if you
have an insane number of machines 8-)
1:56 p.m.
It was thus said that the Great Gene Buckle once stated:
I thought that key sequence was only used for the OmniView SE 2 port
KVM. The 4 port OmniView I have uses CTRL-SHIFT-ALT + console # + ENTER
to change consoles.
I have the Belkin Onmiview Pro-8 (I think---there's too much equipment in
the way for me to actually read the front of the unit 8-) and it uses
Scroll-lock twice, then unit number (0-7) then port number (0-7). The
Belkins can be chained together, but since I only have one, it's unit 0 (so
for instance, my primary Linux system is Scroll-lock/Scroll-lock-0-1, my
gateway/firewall is Scroll-lock/Scroll-lock-0-2 and for some inexplicable
reason, the Windows box is Scroll-lock/Scroll-lock-0-5 (I only have three
systems hooked up to it now)).
At my previous job, I had two systems on my desk and a dual port KVM that
used Ctrl-Ctrl to switch between the two. I don't remember who made that
unit though.
-spc (Liked the Ctrl-Ctrl sequence, but can live with the Scroll-lock
sequence ... )
23 Aug
23 Aug
5:29 a.m.
It was thus said that the Great Gene Buckle once
stated:
>
Hey! When did I get upgraded from "Smart Assed pain in the butt"?
:)
I thought that
key sequence was only used for the OmniView SE 2 port
KVM. The 4 port OmniView I have uses CTRL-SHIFT-ALT + console # + ENTER
to change consoles.
I have the Belkin Onmiview Pro-8 (I think---there's too much equipment in
the way for me to actually read the front of the unit 8-) and it uses
Scroll-lock twice, then unit number (0-7) then port number (0-7). The
Belkins can be chained together, but since I only have one, it's unit 0 (so
for instance, my primary Linux system is Scroll-lock/Scroll-lock-0-1, my 
6:13 a.m.
Gene Buckle said:
Hmmm. The two port version I use here at work just screws up the mouse
when I use the scroll-lock toggle command. Even pushing the button on the
face of the KVM kills the mouse over half the time. As a result, I've got
two mice on the desktop. I really hope that Belkin isn't going with the
scroll-lock command sequence on all their new stuff. The one I have at
home is also daisy-chainable, but that just increases the console number
you can use - no need to specify a port.
I've had the same kinds of problems with belkin 2-port KVMs as well...I've had
them mangle the KB sometimes, too. ick. At home I have a 4-port Cybex KVM
that works quite well, and it uses ctrl-ctrl-<station #>-enter to switch
machines. much less annoying then the scroll-lock thing, and I've also never
had it mangle my input devices :)
- Dan Wright
(dtwright(a)uiuc.edu)
(http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright)
-] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [-
``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread,
For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.''
Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan
9:01 a.m.
On another list, there has been a long thread about
SO's and room for
the hobby. Does anyone else keep their collection set up and
functioning? Does your SO understand? I'm luck in that I have a large
room to set mine up...
My wife understands, although she's not that happy when I use the
loft to rebuild a system. Everything else I keep either in my
computer room or in the garage.
The biggest thing I have right now is a VAX 4000/300 (soon to be a
/500). There's a VAXstation 4000/60, Alphastation 200 4/233, BA350,
and Infoserver 1000 stacked on top of it. This weekend I'll move my
DLT4700 case up to the room (it is currently in the garage, but the
actual library unit is in the room). I'm going to stack my BA23 case
on top of that and a Pro380 on top of the BA23.
--
Eric Dittman
dittman(a)dittman.net
School Zones: Man's attempt to thwart natural selection.
9:02 a.m.
On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, James Rice wrote:
I've told my wife she is kind of lucky. At least
I don't collect
mainframes.
...or wives. :-)
--
Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
rdd(a)rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.
9:51 a.m.
My wife feels lucky that she is able to contain my mainframes (now 2 VAX
11/780's) to one room in the house.
I also collect full-size arcade games.
I never accused her of being intolerant to my hobbies.... : )
- Matt
At 02:02 PM 8/21/01 -0400, you wrote:
On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, James Rice wrote:
"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler
Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er...
I've told my wife she is kind of lucky. At
least I don't collect
mainframes.
...or wives. :-)
--
Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
rdd(a)rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify
such
http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. 
10:32 a.m.
On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Matthew Sell wrote:
My wife feels lucky that she is able to contain my
mainframes (now 2 VAX
11/780's) to one room in the house.
A VAX 11/780 isn't a mainframe. My IBM S/390 9672 G5's CPU (OT,
incidentally) takes up two seven foot tall racks all by itself. A fully
outfitted S/390 9672 G1 (on-topic, bipolar logic, water cooled, loads o'
power) CPU alone takes up between 7 and 10 seven foot tall racks all by
itself, in a typical configuration. IfA VAX 11/780 is a minicomputer.
I also collect full-size arcade games.
I wish I could. My VAXen and my mainframes take up too much time money
power and space.
I never accused her of being intolerant to my
hobbies.... : )
- Matt
11:14 a.m.
A VAX 11/780 isn't a mainframe. My IBM S/390 9672
G5's CPU (OT,
incidentally) takes up two seven foot tall racks all by itself. A fully
outfitted S/390 9672 G1 (on-topic, bipolar logic, water cooled, loads o'
power) CPU alone takes up between 7 and 10 seven foot tall racks all by
itself, in a typical configuration. IfA VAX 11/780 is a minicomputer.
I wouldn't mind having a fairly recent 9672 at home, but the
cost and space are prohibitive.
Incidentally, the R66->Z47 migration went pretty smooth.
--
Eric Dittman
dittman(a)dittman.net
School Zones: Man's attempt to thwart natural selection.
12:04 p.m.
On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Eric Dittman wrote:
I got mine from someone who must have thought, "It's big. It must be
old!" LOL. I paid less than $250 for it.
A VAX 11/780
isn't a mainframe. My IBM S/390 9672 G5's CPU (OT,
incidentally) takes up two seven foot tall racks all by itself. A fully
outfitted S/390 9672 G1 (on-topic, bipolar logic, water cooled, loads o'
power) CPU alone takes up between 7 and 10 seven foot tall racks all by
itself, in a typical configuration. IfA VAX 11/780 is a minicomputer.
I wouldn't mind having a fairly recent 9672 at home, but the
cost and space are prohibitive. Incidentally, the R66->Z47 migration went pretty
smooth.
Glad to hear it!
Peace... Sridhar
--
Eric Dittman
dittman(a)dittman.net
School Zones: Man's attempt to thwart natural selection.
22 Aug
22 Aug
7:12 a.m.
I also collect
full-size arcade games.
I wish I could. My VAXen and my mainframes take up too much time money
power and space. 
21 Aug
21 Aug
9:42 a.m.
"James Rice" <jrice(a)texoma.net> wrote:
On another list, there has been a long thread about
SO's and room for
the hobby. Does anyone else keep their collection set up and
functioning? Does your SO understand?
My fiancee not only understands, she has purchased a Mac Classic herself
(and in fact got me going again after a long break in my hobby). Of course,
she wants it to do a custom paint job, but that's fine with me... I like
doing the same on some of the less-rare equipment.
I told her that when we start looking for houses, one of the criteria for
the realtor will probably have to be 400 Amp service to handle all our
equipment. :-) As for room right *now* for my collection, that's a bit of
a problem for me at the moment... I believe I have a computer or peripheral
or something of that sort crammed into every little nook I can find!
GSL
12:12 p.m.
My problem isn't power capacity, it A/C capacity. With Texas heat plus
the heat from all of the equipment, it gets pretty warm in the
office/computer room.
Greg Lindsey wrote:
"James Rice" <jrice(a)texoma.net> wrote:
On another list, there has been a long thread
about SO's and room for
the hobby. Does anyone else keep their collection set up and
functioning? Does your SO understand?
My fiancee not only understands, she has purchased a Mac Classic herself
(and in fact got me going again after a long break in my hobby). Of course,
she wants it to do a custom paint job, but that's fine with me... I like
doing the same on some of the less-rare equipment.
I told her that when we start looking for houses, one of the criteria for
the realtor will probably have to be 400 Amp service to handle all our
equipment. :-) As for room right *now* for my collection, that's a bit of
a problem for me at the moment... I believe I have a computer or peripheral
or something of that sort crammed into every little nook I can find!
GSL 
2:15 p.m.
On another list, there has been a long thread about
SO's and room for
the hobby. Does anyone else keep their collection set up and
functioning?
Recently I successfully negotiated with my wife to get a dedicated room
for operating my collection. Given that my current house is small (750
ft^2, but it's free and works well for college), I am glad to get whatever
I can. I have room for 4 19" racks with rear crawlspace, a LA120, a VT52,
a PC, a guitar amp, and bookshelves.
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com
3:51 p.m.
New subject: Hello World! on modern processors.
Of course you should be able to go even smaller on a linux system by going to
assembly and using the interrupt version of syscall().
.text
.globl _start
_start:
xor %eax,%eax
movb $4,%al
xor %ebx,%ebx
movb $1,%bl
movl $message,%ecx
xor %edx,%edx
movb $14,%dl
int $0x80
xor %eax,%eax
movb $1,%al
xor %ebx,%ebx
movb $0,%bl
int $0x80
message:
.string "Hello, world!\n"
as -o hello.o hello.s
ld -Bstatic -o hello hello.o
strip hello
It's still annoying that 36 bytes of code and data end up in a 404 byte
file. I suppose that's the price of a code loader that supports dynamic
linking. Even if no files are linked, you need to tell it that no files
are linked.
It's not like it really matters. The 6502 version on the Apple would still
have taken a full disk block.
Eric
4:45 p.m.
New subject: Hello World! on modern processors.
It's still annoying that 36 bytes of code and data
end up in a 404 byte
file. I suppose that's the price of a code loader that supports dynamic
linking. Even if no files are linked, you need to tell it that no files
are linked.
SPARC/Solaris does a bit better in file size by fitting 46 bytes of code
into a 316 byte file, using the same trick in replacing syscall with its
trap representation.
.section ".text"
.global start
start:
mov 4,%o0
sethi %hi(message),%o2
mov 1,%o1
or %o2,%lo(message),%o2
mov 14,%o3
ta 8
mov 1,%o0
ta 8
message:
.asciz "Hello World!\n"
Eric
6:01 p.m.
New subject: Hello World! on modern processors.
Of course you should be able to go even smaller on a
linux system by going to
assembly and using the interrupt version of syscall().
. . .
It's still annoying that 36 bytes of code and data end up in a 404 byte
file. I suppose that's the price of a code loader that supports dynamic
linking. Even if no files are linked, you need to tell it that no files
are linked.
23 bytes in MS-DOS as a .COM file.
ORG 100h
MOV AH, 9
MOV DX, offset msg0
INT 21h
INT 20h
msg0 DB "Hello, World!$"
It's not like it really matters. The 6502 version
on the Apple would still
have taken a full disk block.
True. It doesn't accomplish much to squeeze more
once you're below
the disk space allocation granularity.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
22 Aug
22 Aug
6:13 a.m.
New subject: Hello World! on modern processors.
Yes, but per my earlier example.... are we shooting for less instructions in
the program or less intructions executed in total for the program? (ie, your
23 byte example is calling dos system services, so.... lots of additional
instructions there).
Jay West
----- Original Message -----
From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) <cisin(a)xenosoft.com>
23 bytes in MS-DOS as a .COM file.
ORG 100h
MOV AH, 9
MOV DX, offset msg0
INT 21h
INT 20h
msg0 DB "Hello, World!$"
21 Aug
21 Aug
6:47 p.m.
New subject: Hello World! on modern processors.
On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Jay West wrote:
Yes, but per my earlier example.... are we shooting
for less instructions in
the program or less intructions executed in total for the program? (ie, your
23 byte example is calling dos system services, so.... lots of additional
instructions there).
So far, nobody has set the rules for the game.
And if it is NOT to use OS API stuff, should we also outlaw using the OS
to start and end the program or even to load it?
How about routines in ROM? (PC BIOS INT 10h function 0Eh will display a
character)
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
6:42 p.m.
New subject: Hello World! on modern processors.
On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
Ok, here's my entry on the Apple ][ using no ROM routines:
0300: LDY #$00
0302: LDA $030C,Y
0305: BEQ $030B
0305: STA $0400,Y
0308: INY
0309: BNE $0302
030B: RTS ; or BRK
030C: C8 C5 CC CC CF A0 D7 CF D2 CC C4 00 ; "HELLO WORLD"
Damn, 26 bytes. Can't be any smaller, so Jay's Prime example still beats
it. Curse you, 6502!!! :)
Well, actually it could be one byte smaller:
0300: LDY #$00
0302: LDA $030B,Y
0305: BPL $0316
0305: STA $0400,Y
0308: INY
0309: BNE $0302
030B: C8 C5 CC CC CF A0 D7 CF D2 CC C4 00 ; "HELLO WORLD"
The BPL instruction will branch to location $0316 when it hits a value
less than #$80 (128), which happens to contain #$00, which is the null
terminator for the string which causes the loop to exit, but which also
happens to be the BRK (BReaK) instruction in 6502, which will cause a hard
interrupt and terminate the program.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
Yes, but per
my earlier example.... are we shooting for less instructions in
the program or less intructions executed in total for the program? (ie, your
23 byte example is calling dos system services, so.... lots of additional
instructions there).
So far, nobody has set the rules for the game.
And if it is NOT to use OS API stuff, should we also outlaw using the OS
to start and end the program or even to load it?
How about routines in ROM? (PC BIOS INT 10h function 0Eh will display a
character) 
10:09 p.m.
New subject: Hello World! on modern processors.
OOPS! I counted the wrong direction OR set the data string location wrong, but
you get the idea. Putting the program in RAM requires some sort of a tool,
eitehr in the form of a front panel, or in the form of a debug monitor, just as
some others' programs require a loader to do the dirty work. Strobing a printer
port isn't really necessary if you consider a display to console as a PRINT
operation, which I really never did, but since 'C' and BASIC seem to agree that
printf() or PRINT "..." mean echo to console ...
Dick
22 Aug
22 Aug
6:27 a.m.
New subject: Hello World! on modern processors.
On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Jay West wrote:
Not being able to use OS services makes it quite a bit harder, especially
given that the physical address of display memory isn't a constant on machines
of the same architecture. Moving a string to display memory is easy if
you know the destination address. In other words, a program that would do
the job on the Ultra 10 on my desk is 32 bytes or so. A program that will
do the job on the Ultra 10 on my desk and on the Sparcstation 2 on the next
desk is a few K. It gets a whole lot easier if you can use the ROM or the OS.
Eric
Yes, but per my earlier example.... are we
shooting for less instructions in
the program or less intructions executed in total for the program? (ie, your
23 byte example is calling dos system services, so.... lots of additional
instructions there).
So far, nobody has set the rules for the game.
And if it is NOT to use OS API stuff, should we also outlaw using the OS
to start and end the program or even to load it?
How about routines in ROM? (PC BIOS INT 10h function 0Eh will display a
character)
21 Aug
21 Aug
6:53 p.m.
New subject: Hello World! on modern processors.
It was thus said that the Great Jay West once stated:
Yes, but per my earlier example.... are we shooting for less instructions in
the program or less intructions executed in total for the program? (ie, your
23 byte example is calling dos system services, so.... lots of additional
instructions there).
Well, this all started when Iggy said there wasn't a PRINT language
element in Assembly, so I suppose it's the easiest way to get something
printed, which means using built in system support.
Now, if you are doing this on an IBM PC the quickest way (assuming a CGA
card at minimum 8-) is possibly:
org 0100h
push cs
pop ds
mov ax,0b800h
mov es,ax
mov si,offset message
xor di,di
mov cx,12
rep movsw
ret
message db 'H',7,'e',7,'l',7,'l',7,'o',7,'
',7
db 'w',7,'o',7,'r',7,'l',7,'d',7,'!',7
end
-spc (42 bytes, more if you want to be pedantic and check for MDA ... )
7:22 p.m.
New subject: Hello World! on modern processors.
Yes, but per
my earlier example.... are we shooting for less instructions in
the program or less intructions executed in total for the program? (ie, your
23 byte example is calling dos system services, so.... lots of additional
instructions there).
Well, this all started when Iggy said there wasn't a PRINT language
element in Assembly, so I suppose it's the easiest way to get something
printed, which means using built in system support. 
8:16 p.m.
New subject: Hello World! on modern processors.
At 09:22 PM 8/21/01 -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
Fine then -- Commodores can just STA directly to screen memory (exercise
left for the reader). :-)
I can do better (if someone hasn't already) -- this is for the Sol:
ORG 0000h
JMP 0000h
ORG 0CC00h
DB 'Hello World!'
That is 15 bytes, and executes in 0 cycles.
The Sol's screen is memory mapped and begins at 0xCC00. Let the program
loader take care of it for you.
-----
Jim Battle == frustum(a)pacbell.net
> Yes, but
per my earlier example.... are we shooting for less
instructions in
> the program or less intructions executed in
total for the program?
(ie, your
23 byte
example is calling dos system services, so.... lots of additional
instructions there).
Well, this all started when Iggy said there wasn't a PRINT language
element in Assembly, so I suppose it's the easiest way to get something
printed, which means using built in system support.
22 Aug
22 Aug
4:31 a.m.
New subject: Hello World! on modern processors.
Fine then --
Commodores can just STA directly to screen memory (exercise
left for the reader). :-)
I can do better (if someone hasn't already) -- this is for the Sol:
ORG 0000h
JMP 0000h
ORG 0CC00h
DB 'Hello World!'
6:05 a.m.
New subject: Hello World! on modern processors.
I can do
better (if someone hasn't already) -- this is for the Sol:
ORG 0000h
JMP 0000h
ORG 0CC00h
DB 'Hello World!'
Oh yeah?
; Commodore 64 and 128
* = $0400
.asc 'hello world'
You don't even have to JMP to it. :-)
5:42 p.m.
New subject: Hello World! on modern processors.
> Oh yeah?
>
> ; Commodore 64 and 128
> * = $0400
> .asc 'hello world'
>
> You don't even have to JMP to it. :-)
Cameron, if memory serves, isn't $FFD2 the kernal
print routine?
Correct, but you just load this 'routine' in -- look at the start address :-)
--
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser(a)stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- Never blame on malice what can be blamed on abject idiocy. -----------------
5:21 a.m.
New subject: Hello World! on modern processors.
On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Jim Battle wrote:
I can do better (if someone hasn't already) --
this is for the Sol:
ORG 0000h
JMP 0000h
ORG 0CC00h
DB 'Hello World!'
That is 15 bytes, and executes in 0 cycles.
The Sol's screen is memory mapped and begins at 0xCC00. Let the program
loader take care of it for you.
Aw c'mon, this doesn't count. If that's accepted, then this pathetic
entry must be accepted on the enhanced Apple //e, which allows quoted
characters to be entered directly into memory as follows:
400: 'H 'E 'L 'L 'O ' 'W 'O 'R 'L 'D '!
12 bytes, and gets stored right to screen memory.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
6:49 a.m.
New subject: Hello World! on modern processors.
Sorry about the four copies of my last message. For some reason Eudora
thought the email was getting rejected and kept sending it.
-----
Jim Battle == frustum(a)pacbell.net
10:17 a.m.
New subject: Hello World! on modern processors.
Jim, you must have gotten the shakes on the send key. This is four
editions so far!
- don
On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Jim Battle wrote:
At 09:22 PM 8/21/01 -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
Fine then -- Commodores can just STA directly to screen memory (exercise
left for the reader). :-)
I can do better (if someone hasn't already) -- this is for the Sol:
ORG 0000h
JMP 0000h
ORG 0CC00h
DB 'Hello World!'
That is 15 bytes, and executes in 0 cycles.
The Sol's screen is memory mapped and begins at 0xCC00. Let the program
loader take care of it for you.
-----
Jim Battle == frustum(a)pacbell.net
> Yes,
but per my earlier example.... are we shooting for less
instructions in
> the program or less intructions executed in
total for the program?
(ie, your
23 byte
example is calling dos system services, so.... lots of additional
instructions there).
Well, this all started when Iggy said there wasn't a PRINT language
element in Assembly, so I suppose it's the easiest way to get something
printed, which means using built in system support.
21 Aug
21 Aug
8:03 p.m.
New subject: Hello World! on modern processors.
a long call or a jump takes 3 bytes, but we won't count that for now ...
.chip 6502
prport .def $FF00 ; send a character to this port and it transmits the
7 ascii bits. Use the MSB as strobe if your port doesn't generate a strobe for
you
.loc $0210
s: .ascii HELLO WORLD [11]
.byte $0D [1]
.loc $0200
ldx #11 ; length of this string (decimal) [2 bytes]
plp: lda s,x ; get the payload, byte by byte [1]
or #128 ; set the strobe [1]
sta prport ; and ship it [3 bytes]
and #127 ; now clear the strobe [1]
sta prport ; and write it again [3]
dex ; [1]
bne plp ; [2]
ret ; or whatever [1]
That's got to be about 27 bytes ... AND it uses no services or external storage
of any sort. Now, you could save a byte by mapping I/O into zero page ... and 4
if you don't have to generate a strobe, i.e. your port does that for you in
hardware, as many do. This is just a first guess ... it might be possible to
make it shorter.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" <spc(a)conman.org>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 9:53 PM
Subject: Re: Hello World! on modern processors.
It was thus said that the Great Jay West once stated:
Yes, but per my earlier example.... are we shooting for less instructions in
the program or less intructions executed in total for the program? (ie, your
23 byte example is calling dos system services, so.... lots of additional
instructions there).
Well, this all started when Iggy said there wasn't a PRINT language
element in Assembly, so I suppose it's the easiest way to get something
printed, which means using built in system support.
Now, if you are doing this on an IBM PC the quickest way (assuming a CGA
card at minimum 8-) is possibly:
org 0100h
push cs
pop ds
mov ax,0b800h
mov es,ax
mov si,offset message
xor di,di
mov cx,12
rep movsw
ret
message db 'H',7,'e',7,'l',7,'l',7,'o',7,'
',7
db 'w',7,'o',7,'r',7,'l',7,'d',7,'!',7
end
-spc (42 bytes, more if you want to be pedantic and check for MDA ... )
7:48 p.m.
New subject: Hello World! on modern processors.
Somehow I suspect this code won't run on my PPC boards.
Linux != x86.
At 05:51 PM 8/21/2001 -0700, you wrote:
Of course you should be able to go even smaller on a
linux system by going to
assembly and using the interrupt version of syscall().
.text
.globl _start
_start:
xor %eax,%eax
movb $4,%al
xor %ebx,%ebx
movb $1,%bl
movl $message,%ecx
xor %edx,%edx
movb $14,%dl
int $0x80
xor %eax,%eax
movb $1,%al
xor %ebx,%ebx
movb $0,%bl
int $0x80
message:
.string "Hello, world!\n"
[snip]
Gordon Zaft
zaft(a)azstarnet.com
5:41 p.m.
New subject: Hello World! on modern processors.
Sorry, I should have been more specific. I've
never written assembly
for PPC. How about showing us how it's done?
I'd be interested in some PPC assembly samples too.
--
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser(a)stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- Yes, but when I try to see things your way it gives me a headache. ---------
3:57 p.m.
New subject: Hello World! on modern processors.
Gordon C. Zaft skrev:
Somehow I suspect this code won't run on
my PPC boards.
Linux != x86.
Effectively, Linux is as i386-centred as Win NT. Nominally, it might not be.
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
Amiga 4000/040 25MHz/56MB/20GB RetinaBLTZ3/VLab/FastlaneZ3/Ariadne/Toccata
4:11 p.m.
New subject: Hello World! on modern processors.
At 01:57 AM 8/23/2001 +0100, you wrote:
Gordon C. Zaft skrev:
Au contraire! In my work we are finding a lot of interest in
running Linux on PPC embedded boards such as the IBM 405 (aka
"walnut"). There's some interest in ARM too.
Gordon
Somehow I suspect this code won't run
on my PPC boards.
Linux != x86.
Effectively, Linux is as i386-centred as Win NT. Nominally, it might not be.
23 Aug
23 Aug
7:48 a.m.
New subject: Hello World! on modern processors.
On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Gordon Zaft wrote:
I believe there is a NetBSD walnut port underway, and NetBSD is quite
stable on both 26- and 32-bit ARMs (including the StrongARM).
Peace... Sridhar
Effectively,
Linux is as i386-centred as Win NT. Nominally, it might not be.
Au contraire! In my work we are finding a lot of interest in
running Linux on PPC embedded boards such as the IBM 405 (aka
"walnut"). There's some interest in ARM too. 
22 Aug
22 Aug
4:33 p.m.
New subject: Hello World! on modern processors.
Iggy Drougge wrote:
Gordon C. Zaft skrev:
That is a VERY unenlightened (and incorrect) opinion. There are a
number of highly function distributions for a variety of systems raging
Linux != x86.
Effectively, Linux is as i386-centred as Win NT. Nominally, it might not be. from the PalmPilot to an S/390 mainframe. The Linux
kernel runs on at
least 8 major processor families with a number of variations
within each
family. Probably the most interesting developments currently in the
Linux community are in the embedded systems arena. Perhaps you should
pick-up a copy of Embedded Linux Journal sometime and have a look?
Please excuse the OT response to the OT post containing yet another
questionably reasoned opinion from Iggy...
John
--
John W. Linville
Bedrock Systems
23 Aug
23 Aug
7:45 a.m.
New subject: Hello World! on modern processors.
On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, John W. Linville wrote:
I agree. However, Linux is still *somewhat* x86-centric. Also, I don't
necessarily think WindowsNT on Alpha and PowerPC should be disregarded
completely. ELKS is excellent. Period. I've never had problems with
it. I have with MINIX though. (I build controllers for industrial
robots.) But, if you truly want to go multiplatform, NetBSD is the one to
beat. I run it on six platforms myself.
Peace... Sridhar
Effectively,
Linux is as i386-centred as Win NT. Nominally, it might not be.
That is a VERY unenlightened (and incorrect) opinion. There are a
number of highly function distributions for a variety of systems raging
from the PalmPilot to an S/390 mainframe. The Linux kernel runs on at
least 8 major processor families with a number of variations within each
family. Probably the most interesting developments currently in the
Linux community are in the embedded systems arena. Perhaps you should
pick-up a copy of Embedded Linux Journal sometime and have a look?
3:06 p.m.
New subject: Hello World! on modern processors.
John W. Linville skrev:
Iggy Drougge wrote:
>
> Gordon C. Zaft skrev:
>
> > Linux != x86.
>
> Effectively, Linux is as i386-centred as Win NT. Nominally, it might not
> be.
That is a VERY unenlightened (and incorrect) opinion.
There are a
number of highly function distributions for a variety of systems raging
from the PalmPilot to an S/390 mainframe. The Linux kernel runs on at
least 8 major processor families with a number of variations within each
family. Probably the most interesting developments currently in the
Linux community are in the embedded systems arena. Perhaps you should
pick-up a copy of Embedded Linux Journal sometime and have a look?
Oh, but can you go out and buy yourself an m68k/MIPS/PPC meainstream distro in
the bookshop, or can you buy any software for non-i386 platforms? Usually not.
Yes, you can run "ls" and "more", as wellas "ifconfig", but
beyond that? What
about Netscape?
Embedded systems are a moot point, since they're in an entirely different
field and reduces Linux to a kernel as opposed to the desktop/server OS which
is what most people know Linux as.
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
Life begins at '030. Fun begins at '040. Impotence begins at '86.
25 Aug
25 Aug
3:07 p.m.
New subject: Hello World! on modern processors.
Iggy Drougge wrote:
John W. Linville skrev:
<snip>
Iggy Drougge wrote:
>
> Gordon C. Zaft skrev:
>
> > Linux != x86.
>
> Effectively, Linux is as i386-centred as Win NT. Nominally, it might not
> be.
>That is a VERY unenlightened (and incorrect) opinion. There are a Oh, but can you go out and buy yourself an
m68k/MIPS/PPC meainstream distro in
the bookshop, or can you buy any software for non-i386 platforms? Usually not.
Yes, you can run "ls" and "more", as wellas "ifconfig", but
beyond that? What
about Netscape?
Are there any "mainstream" m68k or MIPS systems still around that would
deserve a mainstream distibution?
PPC is covered by (at least) Yellow Dog (www.yellowdoglinux.com). Sparc
and Alpha (while it survives) are supported by a number of
distributions, including Red Hat. According to the Yellow Dog website,
Borders is stocking their distribution at some of its stores.
I'm not sure about Netscape, but I'm sure Mozilla is available for these
distributions. Koffice, OpenOffice, etc are probably available as
binaries for these distributions. Besides, now you are talking about
which applications vendors support what platforms. Believe it or not,
Unix admins used to survive by (horror of horrors) downloading source
and compiling for their own systems.
Your original complaint was that "Linux is as i386-centred as Win NT",
which would seem to apply to the OS rather than the applications
vendors. Or are you changing the rules, now that you've been called on
your bluster?
Embedded systems are a moot point, since they're
in an entirely different
field and reduces Linux to a kernel as opposed to the desktop/server OS which
is what most people know Linux as.
Again, this smells like rule changing. Claiming that "Linux is as
i386-centred as Win NT" and then refusing to consider Linux running on
anything other than an i386 is like declaring allegations to be facts by
refusing to hear any contradictary evidence.
Now I regret having replied to the first off topic post. As if this
list doesn't have enough off topic content, now I'm guilty of adding to
it.
Iggy, please either reply privately to my address or (preferably) don't
reply at all...
John
--
John W. Linville
Bedrock Systems
26 Aug
26 Aug
3:42 p.m.
New subject: Hello World! on modern processors.
John W. Linville skrev:
Iggy Drougge wrote:
>
> John W. Linville skrev:
>
> >Iggy Drougge wrote:
> >>
> >> Gordon C. Zaft skrev:
> >>
> >> > Linux != x86.
> >>
> >> Effectively, Linux is as i386-centred as Win NT. Nominally, it might not
> >> be.
>
> >That is a VERY unenlightened (and incorrect) opinion. There are a
<snip>
> Oh, but can you go out and buy yourself an m68k/MIPS/PPC meainstream distro
> in the bookshop, or can you buy any software for non-i386 platforms?
> Usually not. Yes, you can run "ls" and "more", as wellas
"ifconfig", but
> beyond that? What about Netscape?
Are there any "mainstream" m68k or MIPS
systems still around that would
deserve a mainstream distibution?
I don't know - who cares?
PPC is covered by (at least) Yellow Dog
(www.yellowdoglinux.com). Sparc
and Alpha (while it survives) are supported by a number of
distributions, including Red Hat. According to the Yellow Dog website,
Borders is stocking their distribution at some of its stores.
And then there's the software question.
I'm not sure about Netscape, but I'm sure
Mozilla is available for these
distributions. Koffice, OpenOffice, etc are probably available as
binaries for these distributions. Besides, now you are talking about
which applications vendors support what platforms. Believe it or not,
Unix admins used to survive by (horror of horrors) downloading source
and compiling for their own systems.
The problem is that not all software is open-source, and this means that while
Linux support for card X or program Y may be available, it's only for platform
Z. Just like with NT.
Your original complaint was that "Linux is as
i386-centred as Win NT",
which would seem to apply to the OS rather than the applications
vendors. Or are you changing the rules, now that you've been called on
your bluster?
Why does it always turn out like this when someting is debated with UNIX
people? It's always "but that's just your default .rc file" or "but
that's no
part of the OS" or "but GNU is not UNIX" or "but that's not the
same version
of emacs". An OS without programs is useless. UNIX systems are generally
bundled with a lot of useful programs like ls and ifconfig, but beyond that?
Back on track...
What bluster? When I said that Linux was as multiplatform as NT, I thought
that was a very obvious comparison. Both are i386-centred (you must agree that
Linux is i386-centred), i386-originated (obviously) OSes which have since been
ported to other platforms. Which means that you may run Winmine or SOL.EXE on
MIPS or PPC machines, but not download loads and loads of binaries from
TUCOWS. Which is much the same as for non-i386 Linuxes.
> Embedded systems are a moot point, since
they're in an entirely different
> field and reduces Linux to a kernel as opposed to the desktop/server OS
> which is what most people know Linux as.
Again, this smells like rule changing. Claiming that
"Linux is as
i386-centred as Win NT" and then refusing to consider Linux running on
anything other than an i386 is like declaring allegations to be facts by
refusing to hear any contradictary evidence.
Windows NT runs on Alphas too, and who cares?
Your embedded argument smells like nitpicking. We can both bring up a zillion
instances of Linux and NT on other platforms, but individual cases are beside
the point.
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
When cherry tree blooms, people go and walk there, eat dumpling, bring sake
and talk each other such things as "A superb view!" and "Full of spring
here",
and they become very happily and cheerful. But this is a lie. People gather
below cherry trees and get drunk, vomit, fight, which are happening since the
old days of Edo period. From long time ago.
THE FULL OF CHERRY BOOLMS, CHAPTER 1
25 Aug
25 Aug
7:12 p.m.
New subject: Hello World! on modern processors.
John W. Linville wrote:
Iggy Drougge
wrote:
That is a VERY unenlightened (and incorrect) opinion. There are
a
number of highly function distributions for a variety of systems raging
from the PalmPilot to an S/390 mainframe. The Linux kernel runs on at
least 8 major processor families with a number of variations within each
family. Probably the most interesting developments currently in the
Linux community are in the embedded systems arena. Perhaps you should
pick-up a copy of Embedded Linux Journal sometime and have a look? Gordon C. Zaft skrev:
Linux != x86.
Effectively, Linux is as i386-centred as Win NT. Nominally,
it might not be.
22 Aug
22 Aug
7:12 a.m.
I can. I have room for 4 19" racks with rear
crawlspace, a LA120, a VT52,
a PC, a guitar amp, and bookshelves.
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com
But do you have enough room for bookshelves? Especially as it looks like
those 4 racks probably have DEC gear in them. Here at the apartment I've
got 3 bookshelves, and in storage I've got about 8' of bookshelves, almost
all of that is taken up by DEC documentation, AND I've still got more
that's boxed up. That doesn't even cover the boxes of other doc's up in
storage or the 2+ shelves of books in the living room (they were supposed
to go to storage instead of the apartment when we moved in here).
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
10:30 a.m.
I can. I have
room for 4 19" racks with rear crawlspace, a LA120, a VT52,
a PC, a guitar amp, and bookshelves.
But do you have enough room for bookshelves? ... I've got 3
bookshelves, and in storage I've got about 8' of bookshelves, almost
all of that is taken up by DEC documentation, AND I've still got more
that's boxed up. That doesn't even cover the boxes of other doc's up
in storage or the 2+ shelves of books in the living room (they were
supposed to go to storage instead of the apartment when we moved in
here).
12:01 p.m.
I'm not in that boat yet. My DEC docs and
programming texts currently
take up only one of the two bookshelves. Attempts to enlarge the DEC docs
section are underway.
Be afriad, be very afriad :^) Such attempts lead to major storage problems,
but a wonderful reference library. I've got about one FULL bookcase with
nothing but OpenVMS documentation with very little 'version duplication'
(same book different version) in the bookcase, and I don't know how many
shelves and boxes of OpenVMS doc's in storage. Have I mentioned I like
OpenVMS :^) Then there are all the PDP-* doc's....
Zane
21 Aug
21 Aug
2:44 p.m.
In my 2nd bedroom I have up and running a clone 233 for my main use
everyday (I build it), iMac, PowerMac 6100/60,NeXT Turbo Color
Slab,Power Computing Mac clone with 16" Apple monitor,Apple Network
Server 500/132,Mac TAM,Lisa II,TRS-80 Pocket Computer,Vtech Power Zone
2000,Osborne I,Mac 180 laptop,Compaq 386 laptop,NEC 486 laptop,Newton
130 MessagePad,iPAQ,Deskjet 890C,Color StyleWriter 2400,TI99/4A with
dual floppies,and a SPARCstation2. In the main mainroom I have up and
going Apple IIc,PowerPC 5400/180,PowerPC 5260/120,IBM APTIVA tower
P166,Fujitsu PenCentra 130, and a Laserjet 5L.
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Rice" <jrice(a)texoma.net>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 12:16 PM
Subject: Room for Collections
On another list, there has been a long thread about
SO's and room for
the hobby. Does anyone else keep their collection set up and
functioning? Does your SO understand? I'm luck in that I have a
large
room to set mine up. I currently have up and
running:
NeXT TC slab, 17" Trinitron, laser printer, SCSI box, flatbed scanner
Sgi Indy, 20" Trinitron, SCSI box, Lexmark Optra with PS support
Sun Sparc 5, 20" Trintron
Mac Performa 631CD,DOS board, now just a 15" since the 20" Radius
died,
StyleWriter 2500, LaserWriter II-NTX, ImageWriter II
with LocalTalk
board
NeXT Cube with Dimension, 17" mono, ext CD rom, laserprinter, soon 21"
NeXT Hitachi on the Dimension
WinTel machine, 21" Mitsubishi, 19" CTX on Dual Head, Epson AL1000,
Epson Stylus 1500, Kurta digitizer, flatbed scanner
Commodore 128D, 14" RGB, MPS-803, 2 1571's running CP/M
Intel box booting BeOS, 17" monitor
Other printers and stuff: Calcomp 1043GT plotter("E" size), Zericon
PC3610 plotter ("D" size), HP LJ4si, HP OfficeJet R60, Canon BJC-4550,
Canon BJ-230, Tandy DMP-2100, Epson LQ570 (2 of them), Epson AL-1500's
(2 of them)
This doesn't even count the servers in the closet. I just took down
an
Amiga 3000 that I'm selling. I also have been
selling all of the
Apple
II's ,Tandys and other machines that I collected.
Besides, I don't
want
to keep a lot of boxes in storage, they need to be
used and ran.
I've told my wife she is kind of lucky. At least I don't collect
mainframes.
James
http://home.texoma.net/~jrice
4:04 p.m.
In my 2nd bedroom I have up and running a clone 233 for
my main use
everyday (I build it), iMac, PowerMac 6100/60,NeXT Turbo Color
Slab,Power Computing Mac clone with 16" Apple monitor,Apple Network
Server 500/132,Mac TAM,Lisa II,TRS-80 Pocket Computer,Vtech Power Zone
2000,Osborne I,Mac 180 laptop,Compaq 386 laptop,NEC 486 laptop,Newton
130 MessagePad,iPAQ,Deskjet 890C,Color StyleWriter 2400,TI99/4A with
dual floppies,and a SPARCstation2. In the main mainroom I have up and
going Apple IIc,PowerPC 5400/180,PowerPC 5260/120,IBM APTIVA tower
P166,Fujitsu PenCentra 130, and a Laserjet 5L.
I live in a small 900 sq/ft apartment with two bedrooms, one
of which is lined with shelves for my various systems. Four of them
(G3/450, TRS-80 Model 2000, NeXTstation Color, and SOL-20) are set up
so that they may be used at any time. My MicroVAX II sits beside the
desk and only needs connection of a terminal to be used. It also
acts as a pedestal for my G3/450. At any given time, depending on
what I'm working on at that moment, there is generally a system set
up on my dining room table. Most of my others can be pulled out and
set up without too much trouble and nearly all of my systems are
housed within the single room.
Jeff
--
Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File
http://www.cchaven.com
http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
9:23 p.m.
Unfortunetly, I don't have a SO, so I don't have to deal with that part
of it. I don't have people over, however, so that tells you that it is
even too messy for me, right now. Only 3 of my machines are ready to
go, at the flick of a switch. Thats my IBM Model 80, that is my main
computer right now, which is in the living room. My Apple //e in my
storage room (second bedroom, so it siutable for electronic equipment).
Lastly my old main computer, that is OS-less on the HD becasue I am
going to be installing Linux shortly.... used to be W98.
My MicroVax 3400, R400X, and 486 desktop are in the dineing area, but
they aren't ready for action yet.
My PDP11/73 is in the living room sitting, as are a pair of Apple //
machines, and a TIPC that needs to be shipped to Germany.
My storage room contains un-setup machines and parts.
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
James Rice wrote:
On another list, there has been a long thread about SO's and room for
the hobby. Does anyone else keep their collection set up and
functioning? Does your SO understand? I'm luck in that I have a large
room to set mine up.
8362
days inactive
8367
days old
56 comments
28 participants
participants (28)
-
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
cmcmanis＠netapp.com -
dittman＠dittman.net -
donm＠cts.com -
dtwright＠uiuc.edu -
edick＠idcomm.com -
fernande＠internet1.net -
foo＠siconic.com -
frustum＠pacbell.net -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
glindsey＠ssinc.com -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
jhellige＠earthlink.net -
jhfine＠idirect.com -
jrice＠texoma.net -
jrkeys＠concentric.net -
jss＠subatomix.com -
korpela＠ssl.berkeley.edu -
linvjw＠bedrocksys.com -
mikeford＠socal.rr.com -
msell＠ontimesupport.com -
optimus＠canit.se -
rdd＠smart.net -
spc＠conman.org -
spectre＠stockholm.ptloma.edu -
vance＠ikickass.org -
west＠tseinc.com -
zaft＠azstarnet.com