23 Jun
2000
23 Jun
'00
2:49 p.m.
Why not will it to the Computer Museum History
Center?
http://www.computerhistory.org
hat's what I intend to do with mine.
It's not enough to just will your collection or some
part of it to the Computer Museum History Center...
unless you also provide for the shipping/transport
of your bequest from wherever it is to the Moffet
Field operation, as they lack the funds to do so
themselves.
Everyone, please bear this in mind. Make sure a
few $$$ remain to cover shipping & handling!
-dq
26 Jun
26 Jun
12:10 p.m.
It's not enough to just will your collection or
some
part of it to the Computer Museum History Center...
unless you also provide for the shipping/transport
of your bequest from wherever it is to the Moffet
Field operation, as they lack the funds to do so
themselves.
The best option for the museum folks is to will them "right of first
refusal", giving them the option to take what they want. Most museums are
cramped for space (like RCS/RI, for example), and giving them an entire
collection often turns into a big headache, if only a small amount of it
is to be kept.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
2:05 p.m.
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4:10 p.m.
New subject: Museum policies (was: Yo)
Certainly in the UK (and I guess this applies
worldwide), some museums
have policies which make it difficult for them to sell or give away
potential exhibits. So even though they've already got 10 Commodore 64s,
and even though they know of a collector who wants one, they still can't
give him the one that's just been given to them.
Something seems seriously wrong here. If a museum ever gets into a
situation like this, they have made a serious error.
When an artifact (or anything else, for that matter) is to be donated to a
museum, a contract is drawn up and signed by both parties. The museums use
a very standardized contract to protect themselves, as many people use
museums for personal gain. Like any contract, both parties must agree or
nothing happens. Museums will _almost_always_ insist on a contract that
lets them do whatever they want with the all or part of the new material -
including storage, display, preservation and restoration, trade, sale, and
destruction. If they can not get this right, nearly all will simply not
accept the donation. This also applies to things willed to them - they
need not take them if backed into a corner.
I think you may be confusing the issue of selling and trading items that
are not part of the museum trust - basically items on temporary or
indefinite loan (there really is no "permanent loan"). For example, when
the ship restoration people go into the reserve fleet to pull off fittings
and equipment for museum ships going thru restoration, the items
_can_not_ be sold or destroyed. This is because the items are still
government property, even though the Navy doesn't want the stuff! The
stuff can be traded, but only for items in the same category from other
museums.
I can not think of any situation where computer equipment would fall into
this category, unless the equipment is crypto related.
Also, keep in mind the point of accepting willed donations. Think of the
tripping points a museum would have with these transactions. Museums
generally do not have the resources to change the terms of wills, so if
lots come along, generally they must take all or nothing (unless the term
does give the right of first refusal). They _must_ have the right to
refuse donations. If this was not the case, museums would be helpless and
the power would be abused by anyone trying to get the junk out of an
estate. They would have to take stuff that wasn't even worth taking to a
flea market or the Goodwill store. Additionally, they would be forced to
take things in huge quantities that would quickly swamp their systems. For
example, I have in my shop a number of radio boxes for Martin B-10/B-12
bombers - great museum pieces, but does any museum need twenty of the darn
things (I certainly don't - anyone want to buy one or more from me)? Of
course not, and if I died tomorrow the recipient museum might only take
one or two to satisfy their needs. If the museum was forced to take all
and keep them - well, hell, I could "donate" all of my scrap metal and
half parted and stripped sets, too.
While such policies are obviously necessary, I am also
quite sure that
most classic computer collectors would rather their machines went to
people who wanted them (wether museums or private collectors), and were
not simply given to a museum to be stuck in storage.
Just keep in mind that in museums, the artifacts are far safer than in
private hands. Some museums have poor storage facilities (RCS/RI needs an
upgrade - anyone want to donate money or shelving units?), but even the
worst that a museum has to offer is far better than what many private
collectors do (is that a can of Coke on your PDP-11? Shame if it spilled
inside...).
Don't damn the museums. Most have to store many items simply because of a
lack of manpower and money to preserve and restore them. The simple
solution is to ask the museums if _you_ can donate time and resources.
Yes, this is a somewhat open invitation - RCS/RI has about 100
waiting projects for every one being worked on, and the ratio is growing.
For those located near Providence, RI, come to an open house (3rd
Saturday of every month) and see what there is to do.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
4:19 p.m.
ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
While such policies are obviously necessary, I am also quite sure that
most classic computer collectors would rather their machines went to
people who wanted them (wether museums or private collectors), and were
not simply given to a museum to be stuck in storage.
Hi
They could always set up a loan program or a lease like program.
The idea would be that a private individual could hold an item
for an indefinite time. The person would be required to bring
the machine back, should the museum need it. Maybe, the
person would need to bring the unit back once a year to show
that it was still in existence. The museum would get free storage
and people would get to explore how these old machines worked.
It wouldn't be much for the trophy hunters but for us hackers
it would be great.
Initially, there would be a lot of these on loan. Over a period
of time, theft, fire and general loss, would whittle the number
down to a more manageable size. This way, the museum could also
maintain a working unit for display and demonstration purposes.
There is something to be said for having a pile of C64's.
Dwight
8:58 p.m.
-> > It's not enough to just will your collection or some
-> > part of it to the Computer Museum History Center...
-> > unless you also provide for the shipping/transport
-> > of your bequest from wherever it is to the Moffet
-> > Field operation, as they lack the funds to do so
-> > themselves.
->
-> The best option for the museum folks is to will them "right of first
-> refusal", giving them the option to take what they want.
-> Most museums are cramped for space (like RCS/RI, for example), and
giving
-> them an entire collection often turns into a big headache, if only a
small
-> amount of it is to be kept.
Sounds like a great way to raise funds for the museums would being
passed up this way. The museum could always auction off what they
didn't need, on site or on the Web, offer on lists like this one to the
highest bidder, etc. Funds raised this way could then go for museum
support, other acquisitions, expansion, public education programs, etc.
I think the vintage computer field is slowly heading in the same
direction as the antique/vintage radio arena, which is fairly mature at
this point. The parallels are significant and I'm sure many of you are
aware of this. We can all learn by the mistakes and achievements made
there and structure ourselves (vintage computer collectors/historians)
/preservationists) accordingly.
Bill
whdwson(a)mlynk.com
10:51 p.m.
Sounds like a great way to raise funds for the museums
would being
passed up this way. The museum could always auction off what they
didn't need, on site or on the Web, offer on lists like this one to the
highest bidder, etc. Funds raised this way could then go for museum
support, other acquisitions, expansion, public education programs, etc.
RCS/RI does this alreay (and also because we are moving away from the
micro and workstation arena). Too bad one of our first Ebay customers
turned out to be a big jerk...
On the flip side, we at RCS/RI can not devote tons of time to selling
stuff at auction, so lots of what we get does end up not being sold, but
given away and so forth.
I think the vintage computer field is slowly heading
in the same
direction as the antique/vintage radio arena, which is fairly mature at
this point. The parallels are significant and I'm sure many of you are
aware of this. We can all learn by the mistakes and achievements made
there and structure ourselves (vintage computer collectors/historians)
/preservationists) accordingly.
It is actually happening without the need to "structure ourselves". It
happens with all new fields of collectables.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
11:16 p.m.
RCS/RI does this alreay (and also because we are
moving away from the
micro and workstation arena). Too bad one of our first Ebay customers
turned out to be a big jerk...
I should point out that the jerk was _not_ the guy that won the Lisa (a
delivery attempt was scrubbed due to miscommunication).
Sorry about any "confusion". Just don't want to step on the wrong toes.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
27 Jun
27 Jun
12:31 a.m.
New subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo
-> > Sounds like a great way to raise funds for the museums would be
-> > passed up this way. The museum could always auction off what they
-> > didn't need, on site or on the Web, offer on lists like this one to
the
-> > highest bidder, etc. Funds raised this way could then go for museum
-> > support, other acquisitions, expansion, public education
-> >programs, etc.
->
-> RCS/RI does this already (and also because we are moving away from
the
-> micro and workstation arena). Too bad one of our first Ebay customers
-> turned out to be a big jerk...
Sorry to hear one of the first deals went bad. Or was that comment a
dig at someone we know? How have the other auctions been doing?
-> On the flip side, we at RCS/RI can not devote tons of time to selling
-> stuff at auction, so lots of what we get does end up not being sold,
but
-> given away and so forth.
Perhaps someone hired to perform this task would pay for their salary
and more?
Maybe someone hired on a commission basis?
-> > I think the vintage computer field is slowly heading in the same
-> > direction as the antique/vintage radio arena, which is fairly
mature at
-> > this point. The parallels are significant and I'm sure many of you
are
-> > aware of this. We can all learn by the mistakes and achievements
made
-> > there and structure ourselves (vintage computer
collectors/historians)
-> > /preservationists) accordingly.
-> It is actually happening without the need to "structure ourselves".
It
-> happens with all new fields of collectibles.
Perhaps I should have used the word "pattern"? Yes, similar things
occur
with most collectibles and their followers. Clubs, newsletters, meets,
conventions, suppliers, etc. I think though that as far as logistics
go,
we have much more in common with the antique radio collectors than with
collectors of Beanie Babies. The point I am trying to make is that all
we have to do is observe where the Antique Radio Collector field is
today
and how it got there. We are following the same path. We can take
shortcuts
and avoid pitfalls. Vintage computer collecting is not a fad, vintage
computers
are not Star Wars figures. Sellam and many others on this list have put
forth
great effort to put on the VCF's, which I hope to be able to attend
someday
soon. However, an IVCA, with elected officers, bylaws, dues, and
non-profit
status would be a great boost to this collecting field.
We are already having the equivalent of the AWA regional meets with the
VCF,
there are contests, and there are some clubs. However, I'm not aware of
any
_major_ Vintage Computer Newsletters (virtual or otherwise), and I don't
feel
discussion groups are in the same category. By newsletter, I mean
something
with articles focused on specific hardware, software, restoration
techniques
help columns and wanted to buy/sell area.
I know there are those that dread this hobby or whatever you want to
call
it heading in an organized direction, with the attendant increase of
publicity
and collectors. Why do I think this way? I see two types of vintage
computer
collectors, the true historical preservationists and the collectors.
Collectors
see organization and all that comes with it as a threat to their ability
to find
those rare pieces (find it first) and increased competition (pay as
little as
possible for it). Why else all the complaining about eBay and the
prices? Our
goal, if I understand it correctly, is the preservation of our computer
technology
for posterity. If an organized association greatly furthers this cause
than I
believe we should be focusing in that direction. And I'm not limiting
"we" to mean
just those on this list, but also those on the many other
vintage/classic hardware
and software lists as well. This can only help but further our cause of
historical
preservation.
Comments?
Bill
whdawson(a)mlynk.com
1:10 a.m.
New subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo
Sorry to hear one of the first deals went bad. Or was
that comment a
dig at someone we know? How have the other auctions been doing?
No one on this list, I think - I pointed the deal out because a -1
feedback is a black eye.
Anyway, some email problems killed communications for a few days after
the auction ended, so this jerk concluded that we killed the deal off and
put up more fibre. Six days is a very short time to jump to a conclusion,
but this guy did and gave us bad feedback.
We are doing well with the auctions - mostly non-vintage stuff like
ethernet things and fibre. We have a few cool things coming up soon, like
a Apples III and IIGS (Woz edition), a Commodore PET of some sort,
probably some old workstation stuff, maybe a few other bits a pieces. And
fibre...lots of fibre.
Perhaps someone hired to perform this task would pay
for their salary
and more?
Maybe someone hired on a commission basis?
If we had five figures of things to move, that would be an idea, but for
our volume it is not reasonable.
we have much more in common with the antique radio
collectors than with
collectors of Beanie Babies. The point I am trying to make is that all
we have to do is observe where the Antique Radio Collector field is
today
and how it got there. We are following the same path. We can take
shortcuts
and avoid pitfalls. Vintage computer collecting is not a fad, vintage
computers
are not Star Wars figures.
Even Star Wars figure and Beanie Baby collecting has gone thru the same
motions - it really is just a natural evolution.
However, an IVCA, with elected officers, bylaws, dues,
and
non-profit
status would be a great boost to this collecting field.
It is a great idea, but I think we do not have critical mass. We also
don't have someone that is willing to be the editor of a newsletter.
However, I'm not aware of
any
_major_ Vintage Computer Newsletters (virtual or otherwise)
CHAC had a good one, but it seems that organization is in a holding pattern.
goal, if I understand it correctly, is the
preservation of our computer
technology
for posterity. If an organized association greatly furthers this cause
than I
believe we should be focusing in that direction. And I'm not limiting
"we" to mean
just those on this list, but also those on the many other
vintage/classic hardware
and software lists as well.
I am a proponent of the museum system (uhh...obviously, I guess), so I
tend to preach in that direction:
I think that the best way to grow the hobby into something serious is to
form regional organizations. RCS/RI is one of them - we grew out of a few
guys in Providence, RI, that were interested in older systems. We have
grown a little in number, but we have collected a whole big bunch of
machines, software, and documentation. Most of what we have was only
saved because we were able to pull together as a group, sharing expenses
to get or ship the equipment, and to pay for the rent for our space. The
machines are basically community owned, so if a member leaves for any
reason, the collection remains basically intact (there are a few machines
in the collection that are privately owned).
We have long term plans - things like newsletters, shows, a real
exhibition hall, etc.. I think we will actually hit some our goals as
well, as we do have a number of dedicated people.
I would urge just about everyone on this list to look into joining or
forming a group. The rewards are great. Rhode Island, that little state
tucked away on the East, has two groups, RCS/RI and RICM. The West Coast
has the Computer History Center (I bet they wouldn't mind a few
volunteers). I am quite suprised that the DC area is lacking any group, as
it seems to be a hotbed of vintage computing. The same strikes me about
the Midwest (Chicago) as well.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
2:56 p.m.
New subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo
On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote:
I would urge just about everyone on this list to look
into joining or
forming a group. The rewards are great. Rhode Island, that little state
tucked away on the East, has two groups, RCS/RI and RICM. The West Coast
has the Computer History Center (I bet they wouldn't mind a few
volunteers). I am quite suprised that the DC area is lacking any group, as
it seems to be a hotbed of vintage computing. The same strikes me about
the Midwest (Chicago) as well.
I totally concur. More people should band together in their regions to
form computer history centers. In the very least get clubs going where
you meet at least once a month to swap hints & tips and work on machines
together. We have an informal "club" here in the Bay Area where we meet
monthly at the offices of Stan Sieler. Stan picks a rough theme and we
all bring machines to work on. We swap stuff, bring information and parts
that others need, etc. It's a lot of fun.
Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...
VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
See http://www.vintage.org for details!
8968
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11 comments
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participants (7)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
aw288＠osfn.org -
dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com -
elvey＠hal.com -
foo＠siconic.com -
John.Allain＠donnelley.infousa.com -
whdawson＠mlynk.com