On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Tony Duell wrote: No, I don't think it's you. Our local "Museum of Science and Industry" seems to be equally dim to anything that does not have immediate 'infotainment' qualities and that looks like an instant money maker. I (tried) to work with them for over a year on a historical retrospective on computers (basically, all I asked from them was some space and a little publicity). They did not seem to think it was worthwhile by itself so I enlisted the help of an educational team from a local (well known) hi-tech firm. Once there was a 'corporate' name to hang on the banner the museum was much friendlier to the project... Problems arose when scheduling conflicts (and budgeting matters) caused a delay, and later the withdrawl of the 'corporate' folk. Within a couple of weeks of that I got word (second hand, they did not even contact me directly) that the museum "did not have the resources available" to stage this exhibit. Nothing I like better than shooting a year and a half of effort down the tubes... Not to mention the many frustrations during the planning, such aswhen I inquired as to the availability of the large collection of robots (Heath, Androbot, many others) that they had once had in their 'Computer Lab'. They indicated that "they thought" they still had the units, but they were "somewhere in the warehouse storage facility" and no one was inclined to search for them... (sigh) WHAT do you do with these people??? -jim --- jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174

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The rules vary in each field. I think for computers, the rules are still forming. But function is not everything. The history behind the function of a machine is also very important - how it was designed, how it was manufactured, who had their hand in it. Details like that can be lost sometimes. The ultimate rule is a preserve an object at a specific point in time, almost always when the thing is taken out of service. Additionally, the object must never be comprimised. Officially restorations are not by the book, as they are almost always non-reverseable. I think this is a BIT extreme, but those are the rules, so if the curator was a "by the book" type, he is justified. Adding cards to the PDP-8, I would think, are completely reversable. Very much part of the history. Up until recently (and it may still be running the shop) in Milwaukee, a PDP-8/e was running everyday doing CNC work and it never had a part replaced. Once a light bulb blew, but apparently was not a very important one, so the shop never replaced it. So theres at least one. True, sort of. See above rule. Just a tag would do. In fact engraving the replacement cards would hurt _them_ as artifacts. Same in the U.S. In defence of the museums, I must say that running such an establishment is _expensive_. Sure, some collectors maybe spend a bit for storage (like me - I spent extra for a house with a big shop), but that is peanuts compared to the everyday expenses of even a small museum. RCS/RI is getting a taste of the real world - every month we have to cough up real rent money. Then there is the phone bill. After that electricity, and a service upgrade. Then maybe we can buy supplies. Just say when. William Donzelli william(a)ans.net

Yes, that is a good point. In the case of the PDP-8, I think the card would have been part of a valid restoration attempt. I will agree here. Historical fabric (the official term for the history of a specific artifact) for some machines is very deep, (for example, some of the RS/6000 "T3Bs" I have mentioned in the past - actually probably harder to find individual machines that did more to the world) and should really be hacked on much. If the fabric is lost forever (maybe if you picked up a new PERQ at a radio rally/hamfest, and the seller had no idea where the machine came from, or even what it is), restoring the machine is not going to rip it further. I do not think that is the case with the big/professional stuff (sorry micro guys). I would say that 99 out of 100 are retired in fully operable condition. New or old, the good stuff like VAXen, Ciscos, AS/400s, etc. just does not fail very often. Oh, I am all in favor of restoration, but I do think that one should try to preserve the machine as best one could. Every repair changes a machine, maybe a little, maybe a lot. The changes add up over time on all of the machines out there, then you end up with a bunch of torn historical fabric. Witness what has become of the classic cars from the 1940s - so many have been souped up, chopped, and modified, that it is now very hard to find one in restorable cherry condition. The same thing has happened to many classic military aircraft - sure there are quite a few P-51s left, but only a few are even _close_ to being original. Now I know that I tend to be a bit preachy and extreme about this, but we only keep our computers for a short amount of time. When we die, the computers do not come with us - hopefully they fall into the hands of other interested folks. In a sense, we are only gaurdians. I can not force people to make "responsible" repairs or modifications - I am sure a lot of people think I am talking out of my butt - but I can try to slow down the inevitable degradation our computers go thru while in use. Its a hell of a bunch more fun then the past flame wars. OK, lets take my Interdata 14. As you may know, ten captive survivors may be in excess for all Interdatas. A chip blows (I think it uses DTL - it has been a while), perhaps a weird one. If I really wanted the machine working again, I might kludge up a functionally equivalent module and solder it on the board in such a way that the pads do not take to much abuse. I would then go on a search for a suitable replacement, of the same manufacturer and date code. Even though the type might be mighty weird, one will show up on some scrap boards. I might have to wait a while, but just about any chip can be found if one actively looks. When the proper chip is found, a proper repair is made. Of course the old, blown chip is filed away and suitable documentation is made up. William Donzelli william(a)ans.net

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It can (see below). But electrically identical only addresses the function of the machine. What about the construction of the machine? If some ICs are replaced with those of another vendor, and the pulled parts trashed or lost (it happens, as they are often seperated from the machine), how does one know that the manufacturer of the computer used the first vendor? This issue might get very interesting in ten years, with the current x86 chip wars, where marketing is more important than performance. For the older machines that we enjoy, some of the weirder manufacturers and variations can get forgotten (like 74xx TTL made by Sylvania, or National 74xx in white ceramic and gold packages!). Maybe they have been sitting around in sheds and cellars? I am always decomissioning stuff, and it almost is still quite functional. But sometimes repairs turn into modifications. My point is that if one chooses, a happy medium can be met - full functionality and little torn fabric. William Donzelli william(a)ans.net

So? To the people that like studying the construction of things at the component level, every part is important. I do not know about that. With a good setup, even replaced surface mount parts can blend right in. In this case, I would venture to say that greater than 99 percent of all PeeCees have their original CPUs. Only geeks change their chips, Mr. and Mrs. Jones do not. William Donzelli william(a)ans.net

Tony Duell wrote: Minis and mainframes are usually fully operable when they are retired, (they'd better be -- the service contract is usually still going strong) but the warehouses they are retired to are not usually the best of all possible computer storage environments. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_

I've begun to feel that anyone who got into Field Circus work after '83 or so shouldn't be allowed any tools trickier than a screwdriver. Bill ex-DEC Field Circus 1981-86 +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter(a)shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+

I learned to hate soldering strapping DH11/DM11's up at AT&T. However, some things just require either soldering or rewiring with a fresh piece of wire. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter(a)shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+