17 Mar
2015
17 Mar
'15
3:45 a.m.
On Mon, 16 Mar 2015, John Foust wrote:
I'm trying to understand at a low level how some
early computers
and game consoles generated a non-standard form of NTSC.
The Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-definition_television says:
"Older video game consoles and home computers generated a nonstandard NTSC
or PAL signal which sent a single field type which prevented fields from
interlacing. This is equivalent to 240p and 288p respectively, and was
used due to requiring less resources and producing a progressive
and stable signal."
[...]
This has absolutely *nothing* to do with NTSC or PAL (or SECAM or
whatever). NTSC etc. are colour encoding standards and don't describe in
any way how a image signal is generated (fields, syncs, timing). They only
describe how to put colour information into the signal.
Christian
17 Mar
17 Mar
8:41 a.m.
> I'm trying to understand at a low level how
some early computers and
> game consoles generated a non-standard form of NTSC. [...]
This has absolutely *nothing* to do with NTSC or PAL
(or SECAM or
whatever). NTSC etc. are colour encoding standards and don't
describe in any way how a image signal is generated (fields, syncs,
timing). [...]
You might want to update Wikipedia, then; its article on NTSC begins
its second paragraph with
The first NTSC standard was developed in 1941 and had no provision for
color.
The PAL article, though, _does_ say it's a colour encoding scheme;
SECAM too.
In any case, even if you're (strictly speaking) right, the terms get
used to refer to other aspects of the signal that usually uses that
colour scheme, so it's not entirely unreasonable to use them as the
original post did.
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
9:24 a.m.
On Mar 17, 2015, at 11:41 AM, Mouse <mouse at
Rodents-Montreal.ORG> wrote:
Sounds right to me. NTSC is the standards body. When people refer to NTSC as a color
encoding scheme, that?s a shorthand for ?the color TV standard defined by the NTSC?.
> I'm trying to understand at a low level
how some early computers and
> game consoles generated a non-standard form of NTSC. [...]
This has absolutely *nothing* to do with NTSC or
PAL (or SECAM or
whatever). NTSC etc. are colour encoding standards and don't
describe in any way how a image signal is generated (fields, syncs,
timing). [...]
You might want to update Wikipedia, then; its article on NTSC begins
its second paragraph with
The first NTSC standard was developed in 1941 and had no provision for
color. The PAL article, though, _does_ say it's a colour
encoding scheme;
SECAM too.
And indeed those two acronyms name a particular color transmission mechanism.
paul
12:58 p.m.
At 12:24 PM 3/17/2015, Paul Koning wrote:
When people refer to NTSC as a color encoding scheme,
that?s a shorthand for ?the color TV standard defined by the NTSC?.
"NTSC" is National Television Standards Committee, which determined analog TV
standards in the US. The digital equivalent for current receivers is ATSC - Advanced
Television Standards Committee.
I spent four years as Chief Engineer of a couple of NTSC stations.
Dale H. Cook, Contract Engineer, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html
1:06 p.m.
On Tue, 17 Mar 2015, Dale H. Cook wrote:
At 12:24 PM 3/17/2015, Paul Koning wrote:
Today I learned that NTSC doesn't actually stand for Never Twice Same Color. :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
When people refer to NTSC as a color encoding
scheme, that?s a shorthand for ?the color TV standard defined by the NTSC?.
"NTSC" is National Television Standards Committee, which determined
analog TV standards in the US. The digital equivalent for current
receivers is ATSC - Advanced Television Standards Committee. 
1:20 p.m.
The French standard is SECAM, which stands for "System Essentially Contrary
to American Method"
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of geneb
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2015 1:07 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Old NTSC tricks: 240p?
On Tue, 17 Mar 2015, Dale H. Cook wrote:
At 12:24 PM 3/17/2015, Paul Koning wrote:
> When people refer to NTSC as a color encoding scheme, that?s a shorthand
for
?the color TV standard defined by the NTSC?.
"NTSC" is National Television Standards Committee, which determined
analog TV standards in the US. The digital equivalent for current
receivers is ATSC - Advanced Television Standards Committee.
Today I learned that NTSC doesn't actually stand for Never Twice Same Color.
:)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database
for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
1:24 p.m.
At 04:06 PM 3/17/2015, geneb wrote:
Today I learned that NTSC doesn't actually stand
for Never Twice Same Color. :)
TV engineers often referred to it that way, and to PAL as "Picture Always Lousy"
and SECAM as "Something Exceedingly Contrary to the American Method." :-)
Dale H. Cook, Contract Engineer, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html
2:13 p.m.
Another one for PAL People Always Lavender
On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 4:24 PM, Dale H. Cook <radiotest at juno.com> wrote:
At 04:06 PM 3/17/2015, geneb wrote:
--
Matt Patoray
Owner, MSP Productions
(330)542-3698
mspproductions at gmail.com
KD8AMG Amateur Radio Call Sign
Today I learned that NTSC doesn't actually
stand for Never Twice Same
Color. :)
TV engineers often referred to it that way, and to PAL as "Picture Always
Lousy" and SECAM as "Something Exceedingly Contrary to the American
Method." :-)
Dale H. Cook, Contract Engineer, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html
11:02 p.m.
Another one for PAL People Always Lavender
Or 'Pay another licence' (refering to, I believe, a royalty payment to sell a true
PAL decoder).
Sony sold a TV set in the UK which avoided this by essentially treating PAL as NTSC and
only
decoding every other line of colour or something. I have the service information in one of
my
boxes of books.
Apparently in the early days of colour TV (I do not know which system) they were doing
closed-
circuit tests. The camera was pointed at a known test subject, the image on the monitor
was
inspected and things were tweaked so it looked OK. One of the test subjects was a still
life of
a bowl of fruit. One day they just could not get a reasonable colour image no matter how
much
they fiddled with the phase shift controls, etc. And then somebody had the sense to look
at the
subject. Some joker had painted the banana blue...
-tony
18 Mar
18 Mar
4:26 a.m.
On Tue, 17 Mar 2015, Dale H. Cook wrote:
At 12:24 PM 3/17/2015, Paul Koning wrote:
The Wikipedia article says that the non-colour standard was only a
recommendation, and that this Committee was reconstituted to standardize
colour television (and in my opinion drop the analog signal definitions).
The same article then says "NTSC color encoding is used with the System M
television signal".
The German Wikipedia says that "NTSC is a US American institution that
defined the first colour television standard [...] The term NTSC was later
adopted as a generic description for this television system." And as I
recall it, what you call NTSC is what we call "CCIR System M" - without
colour (the CCIR and the ITU being much older than the NTSC).
So as I understand it, the NTSC started to define a television signal
standard and dropped it in favour of the CCIR standard, but became the
insitution to define the colour standard in the US.
Christian
When people refer to NTSC as a color encoding
scheme, that?s a
shorthand for ?the color TV standard defined by the NTSC?.
"NTSC" is National Television Standards Committee, which determined
analog TV standards in the US. The digital equivalent for current
receivers is ATSC - Advanced Television Standards Committee. 
17 Mar
17 Mar
9:17 a.m.
On 03/17/2015 03:45 AM, Christian Corti wrote:
This has absolutely *nothing* to do with NTSC or PAL
(or SECAM or
whatever). NTSC etc. are colour encoding standards and don't describe in
any way how a image signal is generated (fields, syncs, timing). They
only describe how to put colour information into the signal.
Regardless, isn't this discussed in detail in the "Understanding the
Apple II" books by Jim Sather?
--Chuck
3518
days inactive
3519
days old
10 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cc＠informatik.uni-stuttgart.de -
cclist＠sydex.com -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
mouse＠Rodents-Montreal.ORG -
mspproductions＠gmail.com -
paulkoning＠comcast.net -
radiotest＠juno.com -
swtpc6800＠comcast.net