23 Nov
2004
23 Nov
'04
12:26 p.m.
Hello, all:
I was browsing eBay and I came across this listing in my "S100"
search:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=51…
rd=1
A few months back, I bought a CD from Dynacomp Software because it
had a bunch of Altair manuals on it that I didn't have. This is, of course,
before I found Bitsavers and Harte Technologies, which has all that I could
want on the documentation side.
Anyway, when this guy was selling only Volume 1 and 2, he was also
selling the original manuals, so I thought that this guy was OK. As time
went on, he began to sell other compilation CDs but not the manuals, so I
concluded that he began clipping files from all over the Web and selling
them on CDs. A little unsavory, but, well, what can one do?
Tonight, I looked at Volume 5 and in the CD table of contents (link
above), I see "altair32 Project Altair Emulator.zip" and two other related
listings. As you all know, this is my baby and this person never had the
courtesy to ask my permission to distribute my albeit free software.
Am I crazy here? Should I contact this guy and ask him to remove it?
Should I ask him to place a link to the project page instead? How about
modifying the listing to include a "permission granted" message?
Any thoughts on this?
Rich
Rich Cini
Collector of classic computers
Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project
Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/
/************************************************************/
23 Nov
23 Nov
3:47 p.m.
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004, Richard A. Cini wrote:
Tonight, I looked at Volume 5 and in the CD table of
contents (link
above), I see "altair32 Project Altair Emulator.zip" and two other related
listings. As you all know, this is my baby and this person never had the
courtesy to ask my permission to distribute my albeit free software.
Am I crazy here? Should I contact this guy and ask him to remove it?
Should I ask him to place a link to the project page instead? How about
modifying the listing to include a "permission granted" message?
Any thoughts on this?
Well, it depends on how you distribute the altair32 project. Is it
freeware? Open source? As I've said before with the fellow who is
selling copies of Al's archive, it's a bit shameful but there's not much
that can be done for various reasons.
However, if your altair32 project is copyrighted by you then he is
certainly violating your rights. If it's GPL'd then probably not.
You might send him a note objecting to his doing this, but unless he's
actually violating your copyrights, there's not much to be done.
Shameful, yes. Actionable, most likely not.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
5:22 p.m.
I'm sure you'll get lots of this sort of reply (sorry :-), but...
On 24 Nov 2004, at 05:47, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
However, if your altair32 project is copyrighted by
you then he is
certainly violating your rights. If it's GPL'd then probably not.
Should, at the very least, read:
"However, if your altair32 project is copyrighted by you then he is
certainly violating your rights. If it's COPYRIGHTED AND GPL'd then
probably not."
If you wrote it, its automatically copyrighted by you. GPL'd software
is copyrighted, and relies on copyright for its power.
Cheers,
Duncan.
24 Nov
24 Nov
12:39 a.m.
>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage
Computer Festival <vcf(a)siconic.com> writes:
Vintage> On Tue, 23 Nov 2004, Richard A. Cini wrote:
> Tonight, I looked at Volume 5 and in the CD table
of contents
> (link above), I see "altair32 Project Altair Emulator.zip" and two
> other related listings. As you all know, this is my baby and this
> person never had the courtesy to ask my permission to distribute
> my albeit free software. Am I crazy here? Should I contact this
> guy and ask him to remove it? Should I ask him to place a link to
> the project page instead? How about modifying the listing to
> include a "permission granted" message? Any thoughts on this?
Vintage> Well, it depends on how you distribute the altair32 project.
Vintage> Is it freeware? Open source? As I've said before with the
Vintage> fellow who is selling copies of Al's archive, it's a bit
Vintage> shameful but there's not much that can be done for various
Vintage> reasons.
Vintage> However, if your altair32 project is copyrighted by you then
Vintage> he is certainly violating your rights. If it's GPL'd then
Vintage> probably not.
Not quite. GPL code is covered by copyright, too. What matters is
what the terms of the license are under which you distribute it. (GPL
is NOT "public domain" -- it couldn't be or the GPL would have no
effect...)
For example, if you distributed it under the GPL, then that other
person clearly was allowed to do what he did; in fact, this sort of
thing is explicitly encouraged. The same is, I believe, true for the
BSD style open source license.
If you have a license that requires notice, or credit, or permission,
then that's a different matter.
In any event, even if not required, credit and notice would have been
the polite thing to do, and if I were in your shoes I would send them
a note to that effect.
paul
23 Nov
23 Nov
9:53 p.m.
complain to ebay that he does not have your permission to distribute your
software, they should pull his auctions.
At 06:26 PM 11/23/2004, you wrote:
Hello, all:
I was browsing eBay and I came across this listing in my "S100"
search:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=51…
rd=1
A few months back, I bought a CD from Dynacomp Software because it
had a bunch of Altair manuals on it that I didn't have. This is, of course,
before I found Bitsavers and Harte Technologies, which has all that I could
want on the documentation side.
Anyway, when this guy was selling only Volume 1 and 2, he was also
selling the original manuals, so I thought that this guy was OK. As time
went on, he began to sell other compilation CDs but not the manuals, so I
concluded that he began clipping files from all over the Web and selling
them on CDs. A little unsavory, but, well, what can one do?
Tonight, I looked at Volume 5 and in the CD table of contents (link
above), I see "altair32 Project Altair Emulator.zip" and two other related
listings. As you all know, this is my baby and this person never had the
courtesy to ask my permission to distribute my albeit free software.
Am I crazy here? Should I contact this guy and ask him to remove it?
Should I ask him to place a link to the project page instead? How about
modifying the listing to include a "permission granted" message?
Any thoughts on this?
Rich
Rich Cini
Collector of classic computers
Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project
Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/
/************************************************************/
9:57 p.m.
Tonight, I looked at Volume 5 and in the CD table of
contents (link
above), I see "altair32 Project Altair Emulator.zip" and two other related
listings. As you all know, this is my baby and this person never had the
courtesy to ask my permission to distribute my albeit free software.
Am I crazy here? Should I contact this guy and ask him to remove it?
Should I ask him to place a link to the project page instead? How about
modifying the listing to include a "permission granted" message?
Any thoughts on this?
The contents on your site are clearly copyrighted, so this guy is out of
bounds. The first step is to ask him to remove the item from eBay. A lot of
people don't understand copyright. They assume it applies only to material
that is for sale. So, be polite and explain that you own the right to
determine how and where the software is distributed.
If he does not comply, then I would file a complaint with eBay. Failing
that, a letter from a lawyer is often effective.
Hello, all:
I was browsing eBay and I came across this listing in my "S100"
search:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=51…
rd=1
A few months back, I bought a CD from Dynacomp Software because it
had a bunch of Altair manuals on it that I didn't have. This is, of
course,
before I found Bitsavers and Harte Technologies, which
has all that I
could
want on the documentation side.
Anyway, when this guy was selling only Volume 1 and 2, he was also
selling the original manuals, so I thought that this guy was OK. As time
went on, he began to sell other compilation CDs but not the manuals, so I
concluded that he began clipping files from all over the Web and selling
them on CDs. A little unsavory, but, well, what can one do?
Rich
Rich Cini
Collector of classic computers
Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project
Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/
/************************************************************/
10:45 p.m.
All:
Thanks for the comments on this. Dave pointed out that Dynacomp has been
around for a looooong time. His auction listing even indicates something to
the effect of "delivering quality software since 1975" which meshes nicely
with Dave's recollection.
The product is indeed copyrighted, with no GPL. The source files do contain
a copyright notice but not an "All Rights Reserved." legend. However, I
expect people to download it, play with it, make enhancements, and then
contribute back. That's how we were able to move the project to where it is
today.
I'm twixt and tween...putting it on a compilation CD at least gets the
product out to a wider audience. However, since I (and a few others) are the
copyright holders to the emulator, and I am the "owner" of the project, I
feel that I should have been at least given the courtesy of being asked.
Since this person has sold software as a business in the past, even in the
"early days" of computing, he should appreicate that.
Thanks for the input on this. I'm going to drop this person a note.
Rich
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces(a)classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Michael Nadeau
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 6:57 AM
To: rcini(a)optonline.net; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts
Subject: Re: Sale of "free" stuff on eBay
Tonight, I looked at Volume 5 and in the CD table of
contents (link
above), I see "altair32 Project Altair Emulator.zip" and two other related
listings. As you all know, this is my baby and this person never had the
courtesy to ask my permission to distribute my albeit free software.
Am I crazy here? Should I contact this guy and ask him to remove it?
Should I ask him to place a link to the project page instead? How about
modifying the listing to include a "permission granted" message?
Any thoughts on this?
The contents on your site are clearly copyrighted, so this guy is out of
bounds. The first step is to ask him to remove the item from eBay. A lot of
people don't understand copyright. They assume it applies only to material
that is for sale. So, be polite and explain that you own the right to
determine how and where the software is distributed.
If he does not comply, then I would file a complaint with eBay. Failing
that, a letter from a lawyer is often effective.
Hello, all:
I was browsing eBay and I came across this listing in my "S100"
search:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=51…
rd=1
A few months back, I bought a CD from Dynacomp Software because it
had a bunch of Altair manuals on it that I didn't have. This is, of
course,
before I found Bitsavers and Harte Technologies, which
has all that I
could
want on the documentation side.
Anyway, when this guy was selling only Volume 1 and 2, he was also
selling the original manuals, so I thought that this guy was OK. As time
went on, he began to sell other compilation CDs but not the manuals, so I
concluded that he began clipping files from all over the Web and selling
them on CDs. A little unsavory, but, well, what can one do?
Rich
Rich Cini
Collector of classic computers
Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project
Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/
/************************************************************/
24 Nov
24 Nov
10:29 a.m.
All:
Thanks for the comments on this. Dave pointed out that Dynacomp has been
around for a looooong time. His auction listing even indicates something to
the effect of "delivering quality software since 1975" which meshes nicely
with Dave's recollection.
The product is indeed copyrighted, with no GPL. The source files do contain
a copyright notice but not an "All Rights Reserved." legend. However, I
expect people to download it, play with it, make enhancements, and then
contribute back. That's how we were able to move the project to where it is
today.
A couple of days ago somebody on this list mentioned they were having
PCBs made for a DEC KM11 (maintenance board) clone based on my design.
And that they intended to sell said PCBs and/or kits.
Now, for the record, I was never asked if I minded about this. I never
gave permission. To be honest, I _don't_ mind. I prodcued that design
initially to get my own 11/45 running, and shared it with the world in
the hope that it would keep a few more machines going. And if somebody
wants to make PCBs for it, fine, go ahead. I am not going to stop you.
But do you think I should have been asked first?
My view is that once I put something on the web, I've allowed any member
of the public to download it. Whether they do this by downloading it from
the site or by buying a CD-ROM with it on makes no difference to me. I do
(of course) insist that any acknowledgements remain intact (if only so
you know who to moan at when things go wrong ;-)).
Based on the fact that I have no CD burner (only a reader), limited hard
disk space, and a slow dial-up connection, I'd often rather purchase a
CD-ROM than download large files myself. Preventing your work from
appearing on such CD-ROMs seems to be rather selfish to me.
I'm twixt and tween...putting it on a compilation CD at least gets the
product out to a wider audience. However, since I (and a few others) are the
copyright holders to the emulator, and I am the "owner" of the project, I
feel that I should have been at least given the courtesy of being asked.
I would agree with that.
Since this person has sold software as a business in
the past, even in the
"early days" of computing, he should appreicate that.
Thanks for the input on this. I'm going to drop this person a note.
Rich
-tony
25 Nov
25 Nov
6:28 a.m.
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Tony Duell wrote:
A couple of days ago somebody on this list mentioned
they were having
PCBs made for a DEC KM11 (maintenance board) clone based on my design.
And that they intended to sell said PCBs and/or kits.
Now, for the record, I was never asked if I minded about this. I never
gave permission. To be honest, I _don't_ mind. I prodcued that design
initially to get my own 11/45 running, and shared it with the world in
the hope that it would keep a few more machines going. And if somebody
wants to make PCBs for it, fine, go ahead. I am not going to stop you.
But do you think I should have been asked first?
I guess it comes down to how you want to be paid for your work.
Some people, like you, are content to remain anonymous perhaps. You enjoy
the credit when you receive it, but you don't go seeking it. You are
content that what you've done helped humanity in general.
Other folks (and I fall into this camp) want to at least receive credit
for the work they have done. Who you are when you pass is what you've
left for the world. To some people, leaving a legacy is important.
(Hopefully, you strive to leave a positive legacy :)
Yet other folks want strict control over their work. They will release it
under certain conditions, whether that means exchanging money or
otherwise. As creators or producers of a work, they are entitled to that.
Then there are the folks who think nothing of profiting from work that is
not theirs while not even acknowledging the creator/producer. Theirs is a
short term and selfish interest. Their only contribution is in getting
something into the hands of someone who needed it.
Ethics: it's not just a word.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
9:43 p.m.
As in :
University professor : " What do you know about ethics ? "
Student : " Nothing thir , I'm from Thuthex ." ( groan
)
:^ }
Geoff.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Antonio Carlini" <a.carlini(a)ntlworld.com>
To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 9:10 PM
Subject: RE: Sale of "free" stuff on eBay
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.801 / Virus Database: 544 - Release Date: 24/11/04
Ethics:
it's not just a word.
True: it's a place :-)
--
---------------
Antonio Carlini arcarlini(a)iee.org
26 Nov
26 Nov
1:11 a.m.
Sorry that should ,of course , be "Thuthecth".
----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoffrey Thomas" <geoffreythomas(a)onetel.com>
To: <arcarlini(a)iee.org>rg>; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: Sale of "free" stuff on eBay
As in :
University professor : " What do you know about ethics ? "
Student : " Nothing thir , I'm from Thuthex ." (
groan )
:^ }
Geoff.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Antonio Carlini" <a.carlini(a)ntlworld.com>
To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 9:10 PM
Subject: RE: Sale of "free" stuff on eBay
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.801 / Virus Database: 544 - Release Date: 24/11/04
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.801 / Virus Database: 544 - Release Date: 24/11/04
Ethics:
it's not just a word.
True: it's a place :-)
--
---------------
Antonio Carlini arcarlini(a)iee.org
25 Nov
25 Nov
7:49 a.m.
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Tony Duell wrote:
I do not expect to be paid for the hacks I produce... It is the way of
the world, at least in the UK. Entertainers get paid (I included
sportsmen here, their job seems to be to entertain a subset of the
population). Hackers do not get paid.
A couple of days ago somebody on this list
mentioned they were having
PCBs made for a DEC KM11 (maintenance board) clone based on my design.
And that they intended to sell said PCBs and/or kits.
Now, for the record, I was never asked if I minded about this. I never
gave permission. To be honest, I _don't_ mind. I prodcued that design
initially to get my own 11/45 running, and shared it with the world in
the hope that it would keep a few more machines going. And if somebody
wants to make PCBs for it, fine, go ahead. I am not going to stop you.
But do you think I should have been asked first?
I guess it comes down to how you want to be paid for your work.
Some people, like you, are content to remain anonymous perhaps. You enjoy
the credit when you receive it, but you don't go seeking it. You are
content that what you've done helped humanity in general.
However, I would object -- most strongly -- if my name/credits were
removed from anything I'd put out for distribution. I would object if
somebody tried to claim my work as their own. So far this has never
happened, in fact people here and elsewhere have been (IMHO) more than
generous in mentioning my name if they used my work.
otherwise. As creators or producers of a work, they
are entitled to that.
I would agree with that. The thing I have a minor problem with is people
who release their work for free download (so that anyone can grab a copy
and in general the author doesn't know who has taken it) but who won't
allow it to appear on CD-ROMs that are then sold for not that much money.
Provided their name/credits remain intact, and that the producer of the
CD-ROM doesn't try to prevent it being freely downloaded as well, I can't
see the problem.
-tony
26 Nov
26 Nov
6:09 p.m.
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 21:49:49 +0000 (GMT), you wrote:
An interesting point that can be made is that people who put a bunch
of info and stuff on CDs and distribute them to others cut down on the
bandwidth expense of distributing that info around. Large popular web
and FTP sites can cost a lot to keep going. So a positive way of
looking at it is that the CD 'publisher' is saving the web/ftp site
'publisher' some money. And this can be strongly the case, if it
keeps some folks from mirroring a whole CD-size bunch of stuff for
their personal use.
There is a lot of 'classic' MS-DOS software that wouldn't even still
exist in an array of versions, etc. if not for those 'dirty bastard'
shareware CD publishers who a lot of people grumbled about back in the
days of the BBSes. I believe there's even a big site or two online
that share out some of those old CDs. I'm certainly glad I've got a
collection of them myself. Sometimes it's handy being able to dig out
the 1990 Simtelnet archive, or a PC-SIG CD or what-not.
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Tony Duell wrote:
I do not expect to be paid for the hacks I produce... It is the way of
the world, at least in the UK. Entertainers get paid (I included
sportsmen here, their job seems to be to entertain a subset of the
population). Hackers do not get paid.
A couple of days ago somebody on this list
mentioned they were having
PCBs made for a DEC KM11 (maintenance board) clone based on my design.
And that they intended to sell said PCBs and/or kits.
Now, for the record, I was never asked if I minded about this. I never
gave permission. To be honest, I _don't_ mind. I prodcued that design
initially to get my own 11/45 running, and shared it with the world in
the hope that it would keep a few more machines going. And if somebody
wants to make PCBs for it, fine, go ahead. I am not going to stop you.
But do you think I should have been asked first?
I guess it comes down to how you want to be paid for your work.
Some people, like you, are content to remain anonymous perhaps. You enjoy
the credit when you receive it, but you don't go seeking it. You are
content that what you've done helped humanity in general.
However, I would object -- most strongly -- if my name/credits were
removed from anything I'd put out for distribution. I would object if
somebody tried to claim my work as their own. So far this has never
happened, in fact people here and elsewhere have been (IMHO) more than
generous in mentioning my name if they used my work.
otherwise. As creators or producers of a work,
they are entitled to that.
I would agree with that. The thing I have a minor problem with is people
who release their work for free download (so that anyone can grab a copy
and in general the author doesn't know who has taken it) but who won't
allow it to appear on CD-ROMs that are then sold for not that much money.
Provided their name/credits remain intact, and that the producer of the
CD-ROM doesn't try to prevent it being freely downloaded as well, I can't
see the problem.
-tony 
6:19 p.m.
Scott Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 21:49:49 +0000 (GMT), you wrote:
There is a lot of 'classic' MS-DOS software
that wouldn't even still
exist in an array of versions, etc. if not for those 'dirty bastard'
shareware CD publishers who a lot of people grumbled about back in the
days of the BBSes. I believe there's even a big site or two online
that share out some of those old CDs. I'm certainly glad I've got a
collection of them myself. Sometimes it's handy being able to dig out
the 1990 Simtelnet archive, or a PC-SIG CD or what-not.
If you have links to those share sites I'd be very interested.
Doc
24 Nov
24 Nov
2:10 a.m.
All:
I dropped Fred Ruckdeschel @ Dynacomp a note. Here is his reply as well as
my original note. Note that in his response he didn't make any effort to
acknowledge the fact that one *might* consider his actions to be less than
courteous. Again, I'm not looking to nail the guy to the wall...if I wanted
to include someone else's work in what I'm doing, I would ask first.
I could have been stronger in my email to him, but I wanted him to know
that I'm watching...
Rich
<MESSAGE>
Hi-
I have added your email and the link to the master for Volume 5.
I think the real fun with the Altair was playing with the hardware
(keeping it running).
Regards,
Fred
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:39:53 -0500 "Richard A. Cini"
<rcini(a)optonline.net> writes:
Hi:
I was browsing the vintage computer listings last night and
I came across
your "Volume 5" compilation. I've actually purchased a CD from you
previously (Volume 4) to fill-out my collection of manuals. You are
providing a wonderful service to the "classic" computing hobby by
making
these manuals available in a compilation.
By the way, I am the owner of the Altair32 Emulator and lead
developer on
the project. The Altair32 is copyrighted software, and I have not
granted a
license for its redistribution on compilation CDs. As a former
software
developer/distributor yourself, I'm sure you can appreciate my
surprise when
I noticed that the Volume 5 CD contains copies of the Altair32
Emulator
(version 2.5, an older version).
Having said that, I'm happy that the emulator can reach a
wider audience
through this compilation. It's a good piece of software and I and a
team of
three other core hobbyists (and other contributors at different
times) have
spent the better part of four years refining and enhancing the
Altair32 to
make it more useful. Version 3.1, in development now, has some nice
enhancements slated for it, including full Z80 emulation and a
*real* front
panel.
I would ask that on the CD you include in addition to the
Altair32
distribution files a direct link to the main Altair32 project page
so that
purchasers of your compilation can obtain the most recent version of
the
emulator directly from the project home. The URL is:
http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/Altair32.htm
In case you're wondering, I live in NY but through friends,
I've been able
to host my site at Simon Fraiser University in Canada.
Thanks for your time.
Rich
Rich Cini
Collector of classic computers
Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project
eb site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/
/************************************************************/
</MESSAGE>
5:24 a.m.
Subject: Re: Sale of "free" stuff on eBay
The contents on your site are clearly copyrighted, so
this guy is out of
bounds. The first step is to ask him to remove the item from eBay. A lot of
people don't understand copyright. They assume it applies only to material
that is for sale. So, be polite and explain that you own the right to
determine how and where the software is distributed.
If he does not comply, then I would file a complaint with eBay. Failing
that, a letter from a lawyer is often effective.
To what end, this? It's a bit scorched-earth don't you think?
6:30 a.m.
Subject: Re:
Sale of "free" stuff on eBay
> The contents on your site are clearly copyrighted, so this guy is out of
> bounds. The first step is to ask him to remove the item from eBay. A lot > people don't understand copyright. They
assume it applies only to
material
that is for
sale. So, be polite and explain that you own the right to
determine how and where the software is distributed.
If he does not comply, then I would file a complaint with eBay. Failing
that, a letter from a lawyer is often effective.
To what end, this? It's a bit scorched-earth don't you think?
7330
days inactive
7334
days old
17 comments
12 participants
participants (12)
-
a.carlini＠ntlworld.com -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
chenmel＠earthlink.net -
doc＠mdrconsult.com -
family.entwisle＠btinternet.com -
geoffr＠zipcon.net -
geoffreythomas＠onetel.com -
menadeau＠comcast.net -
pkoning＠equallogic.com -
rcini＠optonline.net -
tomj＠wps.com -
vcf＠siconic.com