30 Mar
2020
30 Mar
'20
11:37 a.m.
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 10:58:46 -0400
From: Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon at
hotmail.com <mailto:bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com>>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>>
Subject: APL-11
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Haven't given up on DIBOL. May try installing the RT-11 version and
see if it runs.
But now another language of interest has reared its ugly head. :-)
Anybody have an image of the tape for APL-11? Manual claims it
runs on all of the PDP-11 OSes and it is another language from
my past that I haven't touched (other than to read some programs
out of curiosity) in more than two decades.
Bill,
I have the APL-11 V2.1 source files on a RL02 disk image. I will make it available at
http://www.rsx11m.com/apl11.zip <http://www.rsx11m.com/apl11.zip>
Once you mount the disk image with Simh, the are two ready to run task images that
will run under RSX11M or M+
In [201,200]APL6OK.TSK and APL7OK.TSK that are the REAL*4 and REAL*8 versions of APL-11.
On the disk are the
Original .MAC sources as well as files from a RSX SIG tape that modified APL-11 for I/D
under RSX11M+ that increased
The workspace (.BXWA from ~30000 to ~60000 bytes). It also contains a character set for
Vt220 for the APL character set.
When you install the APL task experiment with the /INC to maximize the available
workspace, On my system, I can
INS APL6.TSK/INC=37000 to max the workspace for the single precision version.
Also, the scanned APL-11 reference manual can be downloaded at
http://www.rsx11m.com/APL-11-Ref-Man.pdf <http://www.rsx11m.com/APL-11-Ref-Man.pdf>
and the APL11 installation guide at http://www.rsx11m.com/APL11ins.pdf
<http://www.rsx11m.com/APL11ins.pdf>
The RSX SIG files that have the info to change APL-11 to an I/D RSX11M+ task are at
[370,360] on the RL02 disk. I remember having this work back in the mid-1980s butI have
not been able to get it to work today. If I link it with ODT it seems to blow up when the
first overlay is loaded. If anyone could help with that I?d really appreciate it!
Best,
Mark
I have the source to something called APL-11 for Unix but it is
not the same thing. Actually, not even close. :-)
Would love to see a few pointers.
Oh, and in case anyone is curious about my endeavors....
The SIMH system I am using now is based on the 11/70 and was built
with only 2M of memory. Why you would do that under SIMH where there
is really no memory constraint at all, I can not fathom. I used to
have a bunch of 11/44's and that has been my favorite since my original
11/24 system died long, long ago./ I am going to configure a SIMH
System using the 11/44 as my model and then reinstall everything in
order to have a really good system for playing with this stuff.
Sure wish there was a way to find some of the third party stuff from
the sourcebooks. A lot of nice software that should have been saved
for historical reasons, if nothing else, has been lost.
bill
30 Mar
30 Mar
4:06 p.m.
On 3/30/2020 1:37 PM, Mark Matlock via cctalk wrote:
Bill,
I have the APL-11 V2.1 source files on a RL02 disk image. I will make it available
at http://www.rsx11m.com/apl11.zip <http://www.rsx11m.com/apl11.zip>
Once you mount the disk image with Simh, the are two ready to run task images that
will run under RSX11M or M+
In [201,200]APL6OK.TSK and APL7OK.TSK that are the REAL*4 and REAL*8 versions of APL-11.
On the disk are the
Original .MAC sources as well as files from a RSX SIG tape that modified APL-11 for I/D
under RSX11M+ that increased
The workspace (.BXWA from ~30000 to ~60000 bytes). It also contains a character set for
Vt220 for the APL character set.
When you install the APL task experiment with the /INC to maximize the available
workspace, On my system, I can
INS APL6.TSK/INC=37000 to max the workspace for the single precision version.
Also, the scanned APL-11 reference manual can be downloaded at
http://www.rsx11m.com/APL-11-Ref-Man.pdf <http://www.rsx11m.com/APL-11-Ref-Man.pdf>
and the APL11 installation guide at http://www.rsx11m.com/APL11ins.pdf
<http://www.rsx11m.com/APL11ins.pdf>
The RSX SIG files that have the info to change APL-11 to an I/D RSX11M+ task are at
[370,360] on the RL02 disk. I remember having this work back in the mid-1980s butI have
not been able to get it to work today. If I link it with ODT it seems to blow up when the
first overlay is loaded. If anyone could help with that I?d really appreciate it!
Best,
Mark
Thanks Mark!
I remember we had APL at Rose-Hulman when I was in college there from 1978-1983.? At first
I thought it was on the VAX-11/780 that showed up over the summer of 1980, but now I
realize it had to have been on our PDP-11/70 running RSTS/E.? Probably APL-11 V1.X since
it was there in the Fall of 1978 when I started.? We had a couple of DEC LA36's with
the APL character set and keyboards.
--
John H. Reinhardt
4:29 p.m.
Stupid question time. I last used APL in a class in 1975. Back then you
needed a magic terminal and/or a magic Selectric typeball. How does one
input or print a program on a PDP-11 with mere mortal equipment?
Thanks,
Marc Howard
On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 4:07 PM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 3/30/2020 1:37 PM, Mark Matlock via cctalk wrote:
Bill,
I have the APL-11 V2.1 source files on a RL02 disk image. I will
make it
available at http://www.rsx11m.com/apl11.zip <
http://www.rsx11m.com/apl11.zip>
Once you mount the disk image with Simh, the are two ready to run
task images
that will run under RSX11M or M+
In [201,200]APL6OK.TSK and APL7OK.TSK that are
the REAL*4 and REAL*8
versions of APL-11. On the disk are the
Original .MAC sources as well as files from a RSX
SIG tape that modified
APL-11 for I/D under RSX11M+ that increased
The workspace (.BXWA from ~30000 to ~60000
bytes). It also contains a
character set for Vt220 for the APL character set.
When you install the APL task experiment with the /INC to maximize
the
available workspace, On my system, I can
INS APL6.TSK/INC=37000 to max the workspace for
the single precision
version.
Also, the scanned APL-11 reference manual can be downloaded at
http://www.rsx11m.com/APL-11-Ref-Man.pdf <
http://www.rsx11m.com/APL-11-Ref-Man.pdf>
and the APL11 installation guide at
http://www.rsx11m.com/APL11ins.pdf
<http://www.rsx11m.com/APL11ins.pdf>
The RSX SIG files that have the info to change APL-11 to an I/D
RSX11M+ task
are at [370,360] on the RL02 disk. I remember having this work
back in the mid-1980s butI have not been able to get it to work today. If I
link it with ODT it seems to blow up when the first overlay is loaded. If
anyone could help with that I?d really appreciate it!
Best,
Mark
Thanks Mark!
I remember we had APL at Rose-Hulman when I was in college there from
1978-1983. At first I thought it was on the VAX-11/780 that showed up over
the summer of 1980, but now I realize it had to have been on our PDP-11/70
running RSTS/E. Probably APL-11 V1.X since it was there in the Fall of
1978 when I started. We had a couple of DEC LA36's with the APL character
set and keyboards.
--
John H. Reinhardt
4:35 p.m.
On 3/30/2020 6:29 PM, Marc Howard wrote:
Stupid question time.? I last used APL in a class in
1975.? Back then you needed a magic terminal and/or a magic Selectric typeball.? How does
one input or print a program on a PDP-11 with mere mortal equipment?
Thanks,
Marc Howard
On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 4:07 PM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
On 3/30/2020 1:37 PM, Mark Matlock via cctalk wrote:
Marc,
? On page 1-5 of the APL-11 Reference Manual that Mark posted there is a table showing
the ACII equivalents for the special APL character set.? There are also instructions there
on how to do it.? It's a combination of characters and backspaces.? Kinda tough on a
video terminal but workable on a printer.
--
John H. Reinhardt
Bill,
? ? ? I have the APL-11 V2.1 source files on a RL02 disk image. I will make it available
at http://www.rsx11m.com/apl11.zip <http://www.rsx11m.com/apl11.zip>
? ? ? Once you mount the disk image with Simh, the are two ready to run task images that
will run under RSX11M or M+
In [201,200]APL6OK.TSK and APL7OK.TSK that are the REAL*4 and REAL*8 versions of APL-11.
On the disk are the
Original .MAC sources as well as files from a RSX SIG tape that modified APL-11 for I/D
under RSX11M+ that increased
The workspace (.BXWA from ~30000 to ~60000 bytes). It also contains a character set for
Vt220 for the APL character set.
? ? ?When you install the APL task experiment with the /INC to maximize the available
workspace, On my system, I can
INS APL6.TSK/INC=37000 to max the workspace for the single precision version.
? ? ?Also, the scanned APL-11 reference manual can be downloaded at
http://www.rsx11m.com/APL-11-Ref-Man.pdf <http://www.rsx11m.com/APL-11-Ref-Man.pdf>
? ?and the APL11 installation guide at http://www.rsx11m.com/APL11ins.pdf
<http://www.rsx11m.com/APL11ins.pdf>
? ? ?The RSX SIG files that have the info to change APL-11 to an I/D RSX11M+ task are at
[370,360] on the RL02 disk. I remember having this work back in the mid-1980s butI have
not been able to get it to work today. If I link it with ODT it seems to blow up when the
first overlay is loaded. If anyone could help with that I?d really appreciate it!
Best,
Mark
Thanks Mark!
I remember we had APL at Rose-Hulman when I was in college there from 1978-1983.? At
first I thought it was on the VAX-11/780 that showed up over the summer of 1980, but now I
realize it had to have been on our PDP-11/70 running RSTS/E. Probably APL-11 V1.X since it
was there in the Fall of 1978 when I started.? We had a couple of DEC LA36's with the
APL character set and keyboards.
--
John H. Reinhardt
4:45 p.m.
The only things I remember about APL were:
1. Square <backspace> divide symbol formed something that looked like a
domino (1 over 1) and was the random number generator.
2. Someone always finds a way to do a moderate sized task in one line of
code. The ultimate obfuscated code contest.
Marc
On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 4:35 PM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 3/30/2020 6:29 PM, Marc Howard wrote:
from
1978-1983. At first I thought it was on the VAX-11/780 that showed up
over the summer of 1980, but now I realize it had to have been on our
PDP-11/70 running RSTS/E. Probably APL-11 V1.X since it was there in the
Fall of 1978 when I started. We had a couple of DEC LA36's with the APL
character set and keyboards.
Stupid question time. I last used APL in a class
in 1975. Back then
you needed a magic terminal and/or a magic Selectric typeball.
How does
one input or print a program on a PDP-11 with mere mortal equipment?
Thanks,
Marc Howard
On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 4:07 PM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk <
cctalk at
classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
On 3/30/2020 1:37 PM, Mark Matlock via cctalk wrote:
>
> Bill,
> I have the APL-11 V2.1 source files on a RL02 disk image. I
will
make it available at http://www.rsx11m.com/apl11.zip <
http://www.rsx11m.com/apl11.zip>
>
> Once you mount the disk image with Simh, the are two ready to
run
task images that will run under RSX11M or M+
> In [201,200]APL6OK.TSK and APL7OK.TSK
that are the REAL*4 and
REAL*8 versions of APL-11. On the disk are the
> Original .MAC sources as well as files
from a RSX SIG tape that
modified APL-11 for I/D under RSX11M+ that increased
> The workspace (.BXWA from ~30000 to
~60000 bytes). It also
contains a character set for Vt220 for the APL character
set.
>
> When you install the APL task experiment with the /INC to
maximize
the available workspace, On my system, I can
> INS APL6.TSK/INC=37000 to max the
workspace for the single
precision version.
>
> Also, the scanned APL-11 reference manual can be downloaded at
http://www.rsx11m.com/APL-11-Ref-Man.pdf <
http://www.rsx11m.com/APL-11-Ref-Man.pdf>
> and the APL11 installation guide at
http://www.rsx11m.com/APL11ins.pdf <http://www.rsx11m.com/APL11ins.pdf>
>
> The RSX SIG files that have the info to change APL-11 to an
I/D
RSX11M+ task are at [370,360] on the RL02 disk. I remember having this
work back in the mid-1980s butI have not been able to get it to work today.
If I link it with ODT it seems to blow up when the first overlay is loaded.
If anyone could help with that I?d really appreciate it!
Best,
Mark
Thanks Mark!
I remember we had APL at Rose-Hulman when I was in college there
--
John H. Reinhardt
Marc,
On page 1-5 of the APL-11 Reference Manual that Mark posted there is a
table showing the ACII equivalents for the special APL character set.
There are also instructions there on how to do it. It's a combination of
characters and backspaces. Kinda tough on a video terminal but workable on
a printer.
--
John H. Reinhardt
31 Mar
31 Mar
5:33 a.m.
On 3/30/20 7:45 PM, Marc Howard via cctalk wrote:
The only things I remember about APL were:
1. Square <backspace> divide symbol formed something that looked like a
domino (1 over 1) and was the random number generator.
2. Someone always finds a way to do a moderate sized task in one line of
code. The ultimate obfuscated code contest.
Like any other language, APL is only obfuscated to those who never
learned to understand it. To most people, math when written out is
totally obfuscated.
bill
1 Apr
1 Apr
2:26 a.m.
On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 08:33:45AM -0400, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
Like any other language, APL is only obfuscated to
those who never
learned to understand it.
I was required to take it at Rice University circa 1974. I got quite
good at it.
A week later, I had *no* idea what the code that I had written did.
mcl
31 Mar
31 Mar
5:31 a.m.
On 3/30/20 7:29 PM, Marc Howard via cctalk wrote:
Stupid question time. I last used APL in a class in
1975. Back then you
needed a magic terminal and/or a magic Selectric typeball. How does one
input or print a program on a PDP-11 with mere mortal equipment?
Thanks,
Take a look at Chapter 1.4 of the APL-11 Users Manual. You use
Mnemonics. Special combinations of letters preceded by a period
that represent the symbols. Not as easy to read but still gives
you the power of APL. On the Prime it was combinations of letters
preceded by an octothorpe "#".
bill
1492
days inactive
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bill.gunshannon＠hotmail.com -
cramcram＠gmail.com -
johnhreinhardt＠thereinhardts.org -
linimon＠lonesome.com -
mark＠matlockfamily.com