26 Jan
1998
26 Jan
'98
6:17 a.m.
The whole point is lists and newsgroups is that the majority are pertinent
and one shouldn't have to sort through the impertinent.
All of our email addresses are posted, if you want to have long discussions
as a group there's no reason you can't do it off line...
-Mike
----------
From: Brett <danjo(a)xnet.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Are We Not Men? (& Women?)
Date: Monday, January 26, 1998 6:05 AM
I personally enjoyed reading the posts. I usually pick and choose
anyway - something Sam could do as well.
BC
26 Jan
26 Jan
10:26 a.m.
On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Mike Allison wrote:
The whole point is lists and newsgroups is that the
majority are pertinent
and one shouldn't have to sort through the impertinent.
All of our email addresses are posted, if you want to have long discussions
as a group there's no reason you can't do it off line...
Very good point. And I'd like to make one more point and then I'll move
on. I've been subscribed to this list longer than any of the bone-heads
who are posting off-topic, since its inception in fact (I guess I could be
considered a charter member). I know what the group was originally
intended for because I in part helped create that intent. With the
exception of the blatantly off-topic crap we've seen in the last week, and
aside from the OCCASIONAL straying (the kind that is the exception rather
than the norm) the quality of discussion has remained fairly high. I
would hate for this discussion group to plunge into the anarchy that one
would find on any common Usenet newsgroup just because some selfish
assholes want to talk about their own interests. I'm sorry, but that is
wholly unacceptable, and I'm not just going to allow it to happen. This
discussion was created for the purposes that are clearly outlined in the
FAQ. I'm not a jerk. I'm mostly reasonable and don't get offended
easily, nor do I make it a point to step on anyone's toes for bending the
rules a little. But what we've seen lately is a total disregard for the
basic guidelines. In fact, we already went over this and it was commonly
agreed that we're all here to talk about old computers and closely related
topics. How discussions of acid trips, stilling alcohol and our own
personal acheivements fits in I do not know.
ANYHOW....
I've been picking up a lot of great books lately in thrift stores. I
found a couple different volumes on the UCSD Pascal P-code system. I got
the IBM Options and Adaptors Technical Reference Volume 3 (I believe I
have Vols. 1&2 at home), I got a dBase II manual for the Osborne(!) but
unfortunately no software. I think my best find was Zork I on 8" floppy
in the original packaging with all the original inserts.
Let's see...I also got the Radio Shack TRS-80 Applications Software
Sourcebook. Now, I know that Ward probably knows this, but I didn't
realize just how many programs were available for the TRS-80. This book
is pretty big.
I also found some armed forces computer coursework manuals which are
pretty interesting. I found one called _Introduction to Programming in
BASIC_ from a Navy traing course. I also found a manual on programming in
(I forget which language) on a CDC Cyber mainframe. Both of these are
from the late 70s.
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass
Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
12:06 p.m.
On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Sam Ismail wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Mike Allison wrote:
> The whole point is lists and newsgroups is that the majority are pertinent
> and one shouldn't have to sort through the impertinent.
>
> All of our email addresses are posted, if you want to have long discussions
> as a group there's no reason you can't do it off line...
First - for Mike - And how do we find out if any one wishes to discuss
this on-line or off-line???
Very good point. And I'd like to make one more
point and then I'll move
on. I've been subscribed to this list longer than any of the bone-heads
who are posting off-topic, since its inception in fact (I guess I could be
considered a charter member). I know what the group was originally
intended for because I in part helped create that intent.
Sam - in your own words 8-)
and our own personal acheivements fits in I do not
know.
So What! I think I was here before you so it means nothing!
With the
exception of the blatantly off-topic crap we've seen in the last week, and
aside from the OCCASIONAL straying (the kind that is the exception rather
than the norm) the quality of discussion has remained fairly high. I
would hate for this discussion group to plunge into the anarchy that one
would find on any common Usenet newsgroup just because some selfish
assholes want to talk about their own interests.
Very true 8-) I think we had this discussion before. We always have few
that run off-topic AND THEY ALWAYS clean up by themselves - until you show
up 8-( They would run out of steam on thier own - if you would only learn
patience!
I'm sorry, but that is
wholly unacceptable, and I'm not just going to allow it to happen.
Ohhhhhh! I see - This is YOUR list - we been there and did that before
Sam - don't try to start it up again!
This
discussion was created for the purposes that are clearly outlined in the
FAQ. I'm not a jerk. I'm mostly reasonable and don't get offended
easily, nor do I make it a point to step on anyone's toes for bending the
rules a little. But what we've seen lately is a total disregard for the
basic guidelines. In fact, we already went over this and it was commonly
agreed that we're all here to talk about old computers and closely related
topics.
Good - all your brain cells aren't gone!
How discussions of acid trips, stilling alcohol and
our own
personal acheivements fits in I do not know.
ANYHOW....
And now for a list of - gee - personal acheivements!
I've been picking up a lot of great books lately
in thrift stores. I
found a couple different volumes on the UCSD Pascal P-code system. I got
the IBM Options and Adaptors Technical Reference Volume 3 (I believe I
have Vols. 1&2 at home), I got a dBase II manual for the Osborne(!) but
unfortunately no software. I think my best find was Zork I on 8" floppy
in the original packaging with all the original inserts.
Nice find actually!
Let's see...I also got the Radio Shack TRS-80
Applications Software
Sourcebook. Now, I know that Ward probably knows this, but I didn't
realize just how many programs were available for the TRS-80. This book
is pretty big.
I also found some armed forces computer coursework manuals which are
pretty interesting. I found one called _Introduction to Programming in
BASIC_ from a Navy traing course. I also found a manual on programming in
(I forget which language) on a CDC Cyber mainframe. Both of these are
from the late 70s.
Awww gee - And I got a great personal achievemant story about the early
Navy training that I can't tell - Darn!
BC
2:03 p.m.
Brett wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Mike Allison wrote:
>
> > The whole point is lists and newsgroups is that the majority are
>>>>pertinent
> > and one shouldn't have to sort through the impertinent.
> >
> > All of our email addresses are posted, if you want to have long discussions
> > as a group there's no reason you can't do it off line...
Oh, I think there's a period where the discussions are built up. Where
one, two or three people are doing all the posting. Usually one of the
group takes it offline and that's where it goes, but sometimes, the
initiated or, to be nice, the indifferent, keep posting to the group.
This is the same as if you were working a deal or getting some info just
for yourself.
It's just ettiquette (I really don't know how it's spelled).
You don't have to follow it, and most people let it go, but after one or
two complaints you should let it go. Usually one or two complaints
means there's 10 or 12 in the wings.
And, you have to admit, those were getting out of hand....
-Mike
First - for Mike - And how do we find out if any one
wishes to discuss
this on-line or off-line???
BC
1:51 p.m.
I have almost all the IBM UCSD-P system disks. I thought it was junque
as none would run on any system I had. Until I got a real pc and viola,
it booted nicely.
I just don't know what to do with it....
-Mike
Sam Ismail wrote:
ANYHOW....
I've been picking up a lot of great books lately in thrift stores. I
found a couple different volumes on the UCSD Pascal P-code system. I got
the IBM Options and Adaptors Technical Reference Volume 3 (I believe I
have Vols. 1&2 at home), ------------------------------------------------
Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass
Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
2:04 p.m.
New subject: TRS-80 Application Software Sourcebook
Sam Ismail wrote:
Let's see...I also got the Radio Shack TRS-80
Applications Software
Sourcebook. Now, I know that Ward probably knows this, but I didn't
realize just how many programs were available for the TRS-80. This book
is pretty big.
The first couple of editions were a bit slender (vendors were in a
state of shock from Tandy finally allowing mention of third-party
products at all -- that's why Tandy didn't advertise in 80-Micro for
at least the first 2-3 years it was published), but from about the
third edition on that sucker got huge. It was discontinued after
Tandy got into the 100% compatible business -- just too much PC
software out there to list and keep the book portable. That's when
they started the Express Order program allowing Tandy customers to
order selected third-party software through the stores. A remnant
of that still exists incorporated into the special order system now
in the stores that offers third-party products in many categories,
as well as some old software for the Color Computer, the Model 16,
the Model 4 etc. that are originally Tandy products.
(Now that I think about it, the Express Order program [900-series
catalog numbers] started at least a year or two before the Tandy
1200 etc., mostly for specialized applications that Tandy was not
prepared to acquire the expertise to support -- things like auto
parts inventory systems, medical billing systems, etc. Much of
that was for Xenix.)
--
Ward Griffiths
Dylan: How many years must some people exist,
before they're allowed to be free?
WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed",
they'll never be free.
2:54 p.m.
New subject: TRS-80 Application Software Sourcebook
This reminds me, there was supposed to be a Turbo Pascal 3 for Xenix
from Borland, I saw the add in TP3 for Dos. Anyone
know where I can get
a copy of this and Turbo Prolog for anything? Need the prolog
book as
well, if you can.
Boy did I make a mistake when I decided on Pascal over Prolog...
Mike
Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote:
Sam Ismail wrote:
Let's see...I also got the Radio Shack TRS-80
Applications Software
Sourcebook. Now, I know that Ward probably knows this, but I didn't
realize just how many programs were available for the TRS-80. This book
is pretty big.
The first couple of editions were a bit slender (vendors were in a
state of shock from Tandy finally allowing mention of third-party
products at all -- that's why Tandy didn't advertise in 80-Micro for
at least the first 2-3 years it was published), but from about the
third edition on that sucker got huge. It was discontinued after
Tandy got into the 100% compatible business -- just too much PC
software out there to list and keep the book portable. That's when
they started the Express Order program allowing Tandy customers to
order selected third-party software through the stores. A remnant
of that still exists incorporated into the special order system now
in the stores that offers third-party products in many categories,
as well as some old software for the Color Computer, the Model 16,
the Model 4 etc. that are originally Tandy products.
(Now that I think about it, the Express Order program [900-series
catalog numbers] started at least a year or two before the Tandy
1200 etc., mostly for specialized applications that Tandy was not
prepared to acquire the expertise to support -- things like auto
parts inventory systems, medical billing systems, etc. Much of
that was for Xenix.)
--
Ward Griffiths
Dylan: How many years must some people exist,
before they're allowed to be free?
WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed",
they'll never be free.
4:54 p.m.
New subject: TRS-80 Application Software Sourcebook
Mike Allison wrote:
This reminds me, there was supposed to be a Turbo Pascal 3 for Xenix
from Borland, I saw the add in TP3 for Dos. Anyone know where I can get
a copy of this and Turbo Prolog for anything? Need the prolog book as
well, if you can.
I recall the announcement for the Borland product, never saw an actual
copy. It was for SCO Xenix (x86), not Tandy Xenix (68k).
--
Ward Griffiths
Dylan: How many years must some people exist,
before they're allowed to be free?
WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed",
they'll never be free.
27 Jan
27 Jan
2:04 a.m.
New subject: TRS-80 Application Software Sourcebook
Yeah, Xenix TP3 for Xenix/86 and Xenix/AT. That's what I was looking
for. I called SCO back then and I think even Borland. No one knew if
the product ever even shipped.
-Mike Allison
Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote:
I recall the announcement for the Borland product,
never saw an actual
copy. It was for SCO Xenix (x86), not Tandy Xenix (68k).
--
Ward Griffiths
Dylan: How many years must some people exist,
before they're allowed to be free?
WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed",
they'll never be free.
3:23 a.m.
New subject: TRS-80 Application Software Sourcebook
On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote:
The first couple of editions were a bit slender
(vendors were in a
state of shock from Tandy finally allowing mention of third-party
products at all -- that's why Tandy didn't advertise in 80-Micro for
at least the first 2-3 years it was published), but from about the
third edition on that sucker got huge. It was discontinued after
Yeah, I forgot to mention that I have volume III.
Remember during the 80s the big claim by Apple was over 10,000 software
applications available? And the other manufacturers had similar claims,
but Apple marketed this more effectively than the others because I can't
remember what other computer makers of the time claimed.
So in reality, of the mainstay computer makers at the time, who did have
the biggest applications base? Apple, Commodore, Atari, Radio Shack, TI,
or IBM? Or is this still a rather subjective topic (I expect this will
mostly be the case in the ensuing replies).
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass
Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
28 Jan
28 Jan
3:49 p.m.
New subject: Military Computer Books (Waz: Off-topic...)
;-) Clearing the snow from my glasses, I saw Sam Ismail typed:
ANYHOW....
[nip]
I also found some armed forces computer coursework
manuals which are
pretty interesting. I found one called _Introduction to Programming in
BASIC_ from a Navy traing course. I also found a manual on programming in
(I forget which language) on a CDC Cyber mainframe. Both of these are
from the late 70s.
Time for a quick history lesson... (and yes, it's on-topic.)
My Uncle is a lifer in the Navy (just now retiring - 28 years) and he was
one of the highest ranking NCO's in the entire Navy (spent 14 years at E-9)
and the first time I'd ever been to his house was when I was 8 years old
(in '75)...
He'd hand-built a little "computer" that (while unimpressive to
"normal"
people) converted binary to digital and back, and displayed everything on a
little 8# 7-segment calculator display... it was all done with SSI chips.
He was just finishing up building it when we arrived, and had gotten it
working. I recall (and this is amazing for a kid of 8) that the rest of my
family was "That's cool, Ed... How do you get to Disneyworld?" but I was
"Wow... how does that work?" and my uncle showed me. 20 minutes later, I
learned everything about it, including how to convert binary to decimal and
back. I was hooked. He was amazed. He showed me the schematic he drew, and
I thought they were awesome, and I wanted nothing more than to build
something like that... and I've not changed since.
When we left Florida, my uncle gave me a gift: some graph paper and colored
markers like he'd used to draw his plans. I "drew plans" all the way back
to Upper Michigan, and never looked back.
Well, a few years after, he visited us in Michigan and asked me if I was
still serious about computers. I emphatically said "Yes" so he gave me 4 of
his old Navy course books from the early 70's -- Mathmatics Volumes 1, 2,
and 3; and "Digital Computer Basics"... When I did all the tests in Math
Vol. 1 and most of the tests in Vol. 2 without needing to read the books,
he was amazed. He worked with me the entire week he was in Michigan to
finish Vol. 2, and I finished Vol. 3 & DCB on my own.
That man did more to nuture my interest in computers than the rest of my
family combined, and those books (which I still have -- they're in my
library) are worth more to me than any other book I own.
Just this past year, my wife's uncle was throwing out some "old books" when
he decided I might just like them, so he dropped them off at our house.
Wouldn't you know it, but there was a Navy coursebook in "Introduction to
Programming in BASIC" in perfect shape, revised in 1983.
Even tho I never even owned a computer until 1985, the seeds of interest
had been planted a decade before. Sam, thank you for reminding me of that
wonderful piece of my past.
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed,
Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not*
zmerch(a)northernway.net | be your first career choice.
4:27 p.m.
New subject: Military Computer Books (Waz: Off-topic...)
Just this past year, my wife's uncle was throwing
out some "old books" when
he decided I might just like them, so he dropped them off at our house.
Wouldn't you know it, but there was a Navy coursebook in "Introduction to
Programming in BASIC" in perfect shape, revised in 1983.
Well, that is one of three, there is also one on COBOL, and another on
FORTRAN. I know I did all three while I was an Electrician in the Navy in
'88. It's when I found out the Navy had a Rate that did nothing but
computers. In '90 I switched Rates to Data Processing Technician, in late
'96 I got out as a DP1(SW). Amazingly I taught myself enough while in the
Navy to get a good job, their computer courses for the most part are
totally pathetic, only one was even slightly challenging.
The 3&2 is pretty cool, especially if you can get an older copy than I've
got. The older copies have a bunch of IBM/360 stuff in it. The Modern DP3
manual was pretty good. Don't really remember the modern DP2 manuals (they
had two in the matter of a couple years), the DP1&C book is basically all
military related, not computer related, though it does have a little old
Mainframe stuff.
Other manuals that would be good would be the (they did the Hardware)
manuals. I remember 2-3 years ago sitting in the computer room while at
sea, looking over and being dumbfounded that one of the guys was studying
core memory for a test he had to take. I wish I had a set of these.
The NEETS modules are also good, there is something like 23 of them. They
are on Electricity and Electronics, including how to use test equipment.
Then of course there are all the course materials I collected over the
years, but except for the stuff for the Honeywell DPS-8 Mainframes that's
all garbage.
As of sometime last year there are no longer Rates known as "Data
Processing Technician", or "Data Systems Technician". At least that was
the plan when I got out, one of the reasons I got out. All the Data
Processing Tech's were being converted to Radiomen, go figure. Oh, well, I
make about 3x what I did in the Military, and I even get to come home at
night :^)
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html |
29 Jan
29 Jan
3:34 a.m.
New subject: Military Computer Books (Waz: Off-topic...)
Other manuals that would be good would be the (they
did the Hardware)
manuals. I remember 2-3 years ago sitting in the computer room while at
sea, looking over and being dumbfounded that one of the guys was studying
core memory for a test he had to take.
What is so odd about this? There is still LOTS of core still in use by the
military. Why? Because you can beat the hell out of it.
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
1:01 p.m.
New subject: Military Computer Books (Waz: Off-topic...)
Other manuals
that would be good would be the (they did the Hardware)
manuals. I remember 2-3 years ago sitting in the computer room while at
sea, looking over and being dumbfounded that one of the guys was studying
core memory for a test he had to take.
What is so odd about this? There is still LOTS of core still in use by the
military. Why? Because you can beat the hell out of it.
2:14 p.m.
New subject: Military Computer Books (Waz: Off-topic...)
At the time I wasn't into old computers, only the
latest and greatest. As
such, core memory seemed incredibly ancient.
At the time, it was!
We were on an Aircraft
Carrier, and to the best of our knowledge nothing was still using core.
I would think that any core based stuff would be upgraded for aircraft
duty, as the stuff tends to be heavy (wire, lots of it).
There was a place in Milwaukee still making core for the military in the
late 1980s.
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
11:19 p.m.
New subject: Military Computer Books (Waz: Off-topic...)
At 07:01 PM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote:
At the time I wasn't into old computers, only the latest and greatest. As
such, core memory seemed incredibly ancient. We were on an Aircraft
Carrier, and to the best of our knowledge nothing was still using core.
Until recently (or maybe still, I'm not sure) all spacecraft had to use
core to prevent data changes caused by cosmic particles. A lot of space
rated core still shows up in the surplus around here (30 miles from KSC.)
Joe
Other manuals that would be good would be the (they
did the Hardware)
manuals. I remember 2-3 years ago sitting in the computer room while at
sea, looking over and being dumbfounded that one of the guys was studying
core memory for a test he had to take.
What is so odd about this? There is still LOTS of core still in use by the
military. Why? Because you can beat the hell out of it.
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html |
30 Jan
30 Jan
5:14 a.m.
New subject: Military Computer Books (Waz: Off-topic...)
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8:38 a.m.
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31 Jan
31 Jan
11:02 a.m.
New subject: Core etc. (Was:Military Computer Books)
Speaking of "core on a rope", etc, I've read no mention of "memory
drums", used on
some airborne systems. I remember reading some "horror stories" about
what happened
when these things suffered various forms of mechanical failure...
Will
1 Feb
1 Feb
12:43 a.m.
New subject: Core etc. (Was:Military Computer Books)
Will,
We used these on EC-121s (predecessor to AWACS) when I was in the USAF.
I don't ever remember one failing. I don't think we ever replaced one in
the 3+ years that I worked on that stuff.
Joe
At 08:02 PM 1/31/98 -0500, you wrote:
Speaking of "core on a rope", etc, I've read no mention of "memory
drums", used on
some airborne systems. I remember reading some "horror stories" about
what happened
when these things suffered various forms of mechanical failure...
Will
29 Jan
29 Jan
6:21 a.m.
New subject: Military Computer Books (Waz: Off-topic...)
RE: Military course books,
I don't know about the Navy but when I was in the USAF you could order
the manuals for any course that they tought. This was free to anyone on
active duty and I *think* to retirees. If you know anyone in the military,
have them contact the base education office and see what's avilable. You
may even be able to get them from the US Government printing office. Tech
manuals were available from them for many years, but I don't know if they
still are.
Joe
At 10:27 PM 1/28/98 -0800, you wrote:
Just this past
year, my wife's uncle was throwing out some "old books" when
he decided I might just like them, so he dropped them off at our house.
Wouldn't you know it, but there was a Navy coursebook in "Introduction to
Programming in BASIC" in perfect shape, revised in 1983.
Well, that is one of three, there is also one on COBOL, and another on
FORTRAN. I know I did all three while I was an Electrician in the Navy in
'88. It's when I found out the Navy had a Rate that did nothing but
computers. In '90 I switched Rates to Data Processing Technician, in late
'96 I got out as a DP1(SW). Amazingly I taught myself enough while in the
Navy to get a good job, their computer courses for the most part are
totally pathetic, only one was even slightly challenging.
The 3&2 is pretty cool, especially if you can get an older copy than I've
got. The older copies have a bunch of IBM/360 stuff in it. The Modern DP3
manual was pretty good. Don't really remember the modern DP2 manuals (they
had two in the matter of a couple years), the DP1&C book is basically all
military related, not computer related, though it does have a little old
Mainframe stuff.
Other manuals that would be good would be the (they did the Hardware)
manuals. I remember 2-3 years ago sitting in the computer room while at
sea, looking over and being dumbfounded that one of the guys was studying
core memory for a test he had to take. I wish I had a set of these.
The NEETS modules are also good, there is something like 23 of them. They
are on Electricity and Electronics, including how to use test equipment.
Then of course there are all the course materials I collected over the
years, but except for the stuff for the Honeywell DPS-8 Mainframes that's
all garbage.
As of sometime last year there are no longer Rates known as "Data
Processing Technician", or "Data Systems Technician". At least that was
the plan when I got out, one of the reasons I got out. All the Data
Processing Tech's were being converted to Radiomen, go figure. Oh, well, I
make about 3x what I did in the Military, and I even get to come home at
night :^)
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html |
1:03 p.m.
New subject: Military Computer Books (Waz: Off-topic...)
RE: Military course books,
I don't know about the Navy but when I was in the USAF you could order
the manuals for any course that they tought. This was free to anyone on
active duty and I *think* to retirees. If you know anyone in the military,
have them contact the base education office and see what's avilable. You
Don't know about retirees, but that's a good point about active duty.
may even be able to get them from the US Government
printing office. Tech
manuals were available from them for many years, but I don't know if they
still are.
I'd forgotten about this, I think in the front of the manuals is a blurb
about how non-military can obtain them. The caveat being that they are
non-classified manuals. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the Data
Systems Technician manuals were, but the rest I was talking about weren't.
I assume you also have to be a US citizen.
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html |
2:09 p.m.
New subject: Military Computer Books (Waz: Off-topic...)
The GPO catalog listed some computer training stuff, I believe part of
it military. Anyone can order it.
For the most part, the military has moved away from "For Official Use
Only" on manuals and such, if it doesn't say that, distribution is
pretty much unlimited to all...
Most of this stuff is pretty innocuous, community college stuff (or high
school, I guess).
-Mike
Zane H. Healy wrote:
RE: Military course books,
I don't know about the Navy but when I was in the USAF you could order
the manuals for any course that they tought. This was free to anyone on
active duty and I *think* to retirees. If you know anyone in the military,
have them contact the base education office and see what's avilable. You
Don't know about retirees, but that's a good point about active duty.
may even be able to get them from the US
Government printing office. Tech
manuals were available from them for many years, but I don't know if they
still are.
I'd forgotten about this, I think in the front of the manuals is a blurb
about how non-military can obtain them. The caveat being that they are
non-classified manuals. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the Data
Systems Technician manuals were, but the rest I was talking about weren't.
I assume you also have to be a US citizen.
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html |
11:30 p.m.
New subject: Military Computer Books (Waz: Off-topic...)
At 09:09 PM 1/29/98 -0700, you wrote:
The GPO catalog listed some computer training stuff, I
believe part of
it military. Anyone can order it.
For the most part, the military has moved away from "For Official Use
Only" on manuals and such, if it doesn't say that, distribution is
pretty much unlimited to all...
Most of this stuff is pretty innocuous, community college stuff (or high
school, I guess).
FWIW when I wrote tech manuals for US Army, they had to written to a 10
th grade level! Navy were written to about a 12 th grade level and
Canadian Army to a good technician level (high school plus some experience).
Joe
11:21 p.m.
New subject: Military Computer Books (Waz: Off-topic...)
At 07:03 PM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote:
I suspect even some of those old manuals may still be available. The
trick would be to get the proper part number to order. Considering how
much computer equipment the government buys, this could be a treasure house
of old manuals.
Joe
RE: Military
course books,
I don't know about the Navy but when I was in the USAF you could order
the manuals for any course that they tought. This was free to anyone on
active duty and I *think* to retirees. If you know anyone in the military,
have them contact the base education office and see what's avilable. You
Don't know about retirees, but that's a good point about active duty.
may even be able to get them from the US
Government printing office. Tech
manuals were available from them for many years, but I don't know if they
still are.
I'd forgotten about this, I think in the front of the manuals is a blurb
about how non-military can obtain them. The caveat being that they are
non-classified manuals. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the Data
Systems Technician manuals were, but the rest I was talking about weren't.
I assume you also have to be a US citizen.
Zane
1:51 p.m.
New subject: Military Computer Books (Waz: Off-topic...)
On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, Joe wrote:
RE: Military course books,
I don't know about the Navy but when I was in the USAF you could order
the manuals for any course that they tought. This was free to anyone on
active duty and I *think* to retirees. If you know anyone in the military,
have them contact the base education office and see what's avilable. You
may even be able to get them from the US Government printing office. Tech
manuals were available from them for many years, but I don't know if they
still are.
Joe
Joe I think you are right - any item that is/has been declassified should
be available from the GPO. However - we better watch our step as this is
a clip from email I received from the Sam Ismail about information like
this
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Once again, you've perpetuated off-topic non-sense thus proving you are as
much an ass as you have ever been.
Awww gee - And I got a great personal achievemant
story about the early
Navy training that I can't tell - Darn!
I really would not want to hear your sordid shower stall tales.
Now post something relevant or just fall into the background and stay
quiet like the good little nerd you've been in the last few months.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
So apparently Sam has a few problems to resolve and the list ,as a whole,
and others as individuals, have to suffer through the time it takes for
Sam to get his act together.
Other than the above, I have had no problems with anyone on the list.
And I am saddened that I still can not tell my story. Until such time
as some more old Navy equipment gets to be declassified, something that
has never happened in the *specific area* of my training, I must remain
silent about it 8-(
However, as I was held over at T.I. (Treasure Island Navy Training Center)
to participate in and critique the very first Digital Techniques Class
given at T.I. (late 1970) I have to agree that *most* training manuals are
pretty bad! The majority are extremely good at presenting the facts but
leave it up to the trainer to figure out how to get them into the
students. Some of my most used books are on microwave transmission lines
and waveguides. After the class, the three of us that were to critique the
course, saw the new manuals and reviewed then in two weeks. Record turn
around for the Government 8-) The base attempted to hold on to all three
of us for instructors - however - we were all slotted to go to Vallejo
after finishing Radar training. Somehow, at the time, you had to
understand radar before they let you do Data or Crypto 8-/ Something about
pulses 8-)
I will say that the Air Force did seem to have better manuals than the
Navy and Army. I think they still do. As a side note - there used to
be some GREAT surplus stores in San Francisco - saw my only wire recorder
there as well as some interesting radar equipment, that at the time, I
thought was still classifed. Years later (88) I couldn't find them.
Anybody know what happened to them? I think they were on Market street
or maybe on the the one south of it I don't remember anymore 8-(
BC
11:15 p.m.
New subject: Military Computer Books (Waz: Off-topic...)
At 09:51 PM 1/29/98 -0600, you wrote:
On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, Joe wrote:
the guilty)
about information like
RE: Military course books,
I don't know about the Navy but when I was in the USAF you could order
the manuals for any course that they tought. This was free to anyone on
active duty and I *think* to retirees. If you know anyone in the military,
have them contact the base education office and see what's avilable. You
may even be able to get them from the US Government printing office. Tech
manuals were available from them for many years, but I don't know if they
still are.
Joe
Joe I think you are right - any item that is/has been declassified should
be available from the GPO. However - we better watch our step as this is
a clip from email I received from the ********* (name removed to protect this
And I am saddened that I still can not tell my story.
Until such time
as some more old Navy equipment gets to be declassified, something that
has never happened in the *specific area* of my training, I must remain
silent about it 8-(
If it involves Crypto, you probably won't live long enough to see it
declassified.
However, as I was held over at T.I. (Treasure Island Navy Training Center)
to participate in and critique the very first Digital Techniques Class
given at T.I. (late 1970) I have to agree that *most* training manuals are
pretty bad! The majority are extremely good at presenting the facts but
leave it up to the trainer to figure out how to get them into the
students.
The USAF takes the opposite approach, everything spelled out and the
instructors basicly repeat what's in the manuals. I suspect the Army is the
same now. I just spent 8 years writing manuals for one of their new
programs. I never saw them teaching the courses but the manuals were very
good. Most of the USAF trainers are professional instructors and have
never worked on the equipement that they're talking about. At least they
usually have a decent electronics background.
Some of my most used books are on microwave
transmission lines
and waveguides. After the class, the three of us that were to critique the
course, saw the new manuals and reviewed then in two weeks. Record turn
around for the Government 8-) The base attempted to hold on to all three
of us for instructors - however - we were all slotted to go to Vallejo
after finishing Radar training. Somehow, at the time, you had to
understand radar before they let you do Data or Crypto 8-/ Something about
pulses 8-)
Yes, we had some crypto types in school when I trained on RADAR too.
(early 70s.) Most of them were completely lost in electronics.
I will say that the Air Force did seem to have better manuals than the
Navy and Army. I think they still do. As a side note - there used to
be some GREAT surplus stores in San Francisco - saw my only wire recorder
there as well as some interesting radar equipment, that at the time, I
thought was still classifed. Years later (88) I couldn't find them.
Anybody know what happened to them? I think they were on Market street
or maybe on the the one south of it I don't remember anymore 8-(
After the VietNam war ended and the military wound down a lot of the
old surplus stores died off. Too bad.
Joe
BC
9588
days inactive
9594
days old
27 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
danjo＠xnet.com -
dastar＠wco.com -
gram＠cnct.com -
healyzh＠ix.netcom.com -
ma＠washington.cospo.osis.gov -
mallison＠konnections.com -
rigdonj＠intellistar.net -
shoppa＠alph02.triumf.ca -
william＠ans.net -
wpe＠interserv.com -
zmerch＠northernway.net