24 Mar
2010
24 Mar
'10
12:05 p.m.
On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 11:30 AM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
On 24 Mar 2010 at 9:16, blstuart at bellsouth.net
wrote:
DEC had a problem in the 1980s with parts and machines that had been
scrapped ending back in the sales stream. The big problems for them
were maintaining the perception of quality (much of what got scrapped
had failed some aspect of the testing process) and the tax issue of
claiming that an item was scrapped but still out in the world. I was
told one source of this was the recyclers picking through the bins of
scrap coming from DEC and reselling things that were deemed
resellable. They were paying by the pound for precious and ferrous
metal scrap but making much more from the occasional gem. As the
story goes, DEC bought a large shredder (large enough to accept 19"
racks!), ensuring that re-use would not be feasible.
We had a similar issue at Software Results - obsolete (prototypes and
Rev 0 boards) and unrepairable boards were lying around after they'd
been scrapped - we couldn't repair them since they'd been written off,
so since they were large and green (because of the solder mask), one
of our student employees nailed a bunch of them to a wooden frame in
an irregular isosceles triangle pattern and made a "COMBOARD Christmas
Tree" (using 9-track write rings as ornaments and tractor-feed
tearoffs as garlands). Because the boards were rendered more unusable
(as computer peripherals) by drilling nail holes in them, it was
considered an acceptable re-use. I wish I had a picture of it still.
-ethan
I don't know about the ocean, but they did
send them off to
scrap yards and stuff to be demolished...
There's another aspect to the problem, that CDC ran into during the
70's--that of used parts finding their way into the mainstream.
Apparently, this was enough of a problem that CDC ordered that any
decommissioned system be reduced to unusable junk... 
24 Mar
24 Mar
12:53 p.m.
At 12:05 PM -0400 3/24/10, Ethan Dicks wrote:
so since they were large and green (because of the
solder mask), one
of our student employees nailed a bunch of them to a wooden frame in
an irregular isosceles triangle pattern and made a "COMBOARD Christmas
Tree" (using 9-track write rings as ornaments and tractor-feed
tearoffs as garlands). Because the boards were rendered more unusable
(as computer peripherals) by drilling nail holes in them, it was
considered an acceptable re-use. I wish I had a picture of it still.
The mainframe site that I worked at in the Navy in the early 90's
took disk packs after degassing them and disassembled them for the
platters. When someone transferred to another command everyone would
engrave a message onto the platter, and it would get framed, and
given to that person. I still have mine, though I'm not sure where
in the garage it is. :-)
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
25 Mar
25 Mar
4:11 a.m.
Although I was working at DEC at the time I do not remember anything about
scrapped boards being resold. If they were in systems on Field Service
contracts the ECO levels and where they had them, serial numbers would give
them away. Even in those far off days systems were quite well documented.
If they were not under warranty and not under FS contract they would not
have been considered DEC's problem. If they were manufacturing rejects they
would have had the gold edge connectors cut off.
Regards
?
Rod Smallwood
-----Original Message-----
From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks
Sent: 24 March 2010 16:06
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Scrapping and re-use (was Re: Talking of old IBM systems)
On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 11:30 AM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
On 24 Mar 2010 at 9:16, blstuart at bellsouth.net
wrote:
DEC had a problem in the 1980s with parts and machines that had been
scrapped ending back in the sales stream. The big problems for them
were maintaining the perception of quality (much of what got scrapped
had failed some aspect of the testing process) and the tax issue of
claiming that an item was scrapped but still out in the world. I was
told one source of this was the recyclers picking through the bins of
scrap coming from DEC and reselling things that were deemed
resellable. They were paying by the pound for precious and ferrous
metal scrap but making much more from the occasional gem. As the
story goes, DEC bought a large shredder (large enough to accept 19"
racks!), ensuring that re-use would not be feasible.
We had a similar issue at Software Results - obsolete (prototypes and
Rev 0 boards) and unrepairable boards were lying around after they'd
been scrapped - we couldn't repair them since they'd been written off,
so since they were large and green (because of the solder mask), one
of our student employees nailed a bunch of them to a wooden frame in
an irregular isosceles triangle pattern and made a "COMBOARD Christmas
Tree" (using 9-track write rings as ornaments and tractor-feed
tearoffs as garlands). Because the boards were rendered more unusable
(as computer peripherals) by drilling nail holes in them, it was
considered an acceptable re-use. I wish I had a picture of it still.
-ethan
I don't know about the ocean, but they did
send them off to
scrap yards and stuff to be demolished...
There's another aspect to the problem, that CDC ran into during the
70's--that of used parts finding their way into the mainstream.
Apparently, this was enough of a problem that CDC ordered that any
decommissioned system be reduced to unusable junk...
9:47 a.m.
On 3/25/10, Rod Smallwood <rodsmallwood at btconnect.com> wrote:
Although I was working at DEC at the time I do not remember anything about
scrapped boards being resold.
You were working in the UK, were you not? The stories I was hearing
were told to me at a DECUS in the late 1980s in Anaheim, presumably
about activities in the States.
If they were in systems on Field Service
contracts the ECO levels and where they had them, serial numbers would give
them away. Even in those far off days systems were quite well documented.
Certainly. There was also a lot of "self-maintenance" at the time, at
least in the US. If folks could not afford DEC Field Service, there
were third-party vendors galore to turn to for board-level spares.
When the company was doing well, most of our big machines were under
contract, but over time, more and more were allowed to lapse until I
was doing maintenance for 95% of what broke, just as an example.
Any items from this stream were already gray-market before they hit
the streets. My understanding is that the arrangement was discovered
when the occasional naive customer attempted to get service for
something from DEC and the numbers didn't check out, so in the end the
system "worked", even if there was a gap for a time.
If they were not under warranty and not under FS
contract they would not
have been considered DEC's problem. If they were manufacturing rejects they
would have had the gold edge connectors cut off.
There would have been plenty of salvageable stuff even if 100% of the
Qbus and Unibus boards had the fingers cut off before leaving the Mill
(though it's entirely possible the scrappers were originally cutting
those off themselves for gold recovery - it would have depended
entirely on the arrangements negotiated). Back in the early-to-mid
1980s, intact system boards would have had a high potential resale
value, but practically any DEC part was bought and sold by third-party
vendors. Someone just took advantage of a situation, which was
corrected by shoving all the material through teeth that let nothing
bigger than a large postage stamp through.
But as you say, you were there and I wasn't, so the story is hardly
incontrovertible. It was already hearsay when I heard it 20ish years
ago.
-ethan
11:57 a.m.
Ethan Dicks wrote:
On 3/25/10, Rod Smallwood <rodsmallwood at
btconnect.com> wrote:
I Worked for DEC from 83 to 93.. Located in MLO, PKO mostly
as in Maynard.
PMR was one of the locations an employee could go and buy scrap after they
moved it from the mill. It moved from the mill for a reason. Seems
material
sold was often discards (material not being used) and not scrap. However
the move also allowed tracking what was sold and who was buying.
I built my first 11/23 from salvage and still have it. It's configuration
was as field service would say, unsupportable, as nothing was meant
to go together that way but could and did.
Although I was working at DEC at the time I do
not remember anything about
scrapped boards being resold.
You were working in the UK, were you not? The stories
I was hearing
were told to me at a DECUS in the late 1980s in Anaheim, presumably
about activities in the States.
That happened way later. The reason salvage was moved out of the mill
was there were a few bad apples refurbishing junk for sale and not one
or two and the other was a bunch caught arranging for good material
to end up as "salvage". Right after that salvage sales stopped completely.
That was around 1986.
Over they years there were stories and what I'd heard more first hand
If they were in systems on Field Service
contracts the ECO levels and where they had them, serial numbers would give
them away. Even in those far off days systems were quite well documented.
Certainly. There was also a lot of "self-maintenance" at the time, at
least in the US. If folks could not afford DEC Field Service, there
were third-party vendors galore to turn to for board-level spares.
When the company was doing well, most of our big machines were under
contract, but over time, more and more were allowed to lapse until I
was doing maintenance for 95% of what broke, just as an example.
Any items from this stream were already gray-market before they hit
the streets. My understanding is that the arrangement was discovered
when the occasional naive customer attempted to get service for
something from DEC and the numbers didn't check out, so in the end the
system "worked", even if there was a gap for a time.
If they were not under warranty and not under FS
contract they would not
have been considered DEC's problem. If they were manufacturing rejects they
would have had the gold edge connectors cut off.
There would have been plenty of salvageable stuff even if 100% of the
Qbus and Unibus boards had the fingers cut off before leaving the Mill
(though it's entirely possible the scrappers were originally cutting
those off themselves for gold recovery - it would have depended
entirely on the arrangements negotiated). Back in the early-to-mid
1980s, intact system boards would have had a high potential resale
value, but practically any DEC part was bought and sold by third-party
vendors. Someone just took advantage of a situation, which was
corrected by shoving all the material through teeth that let nothing
bigger than a large postage stamp through.
from a friend in security. Seems over the years you
would get someone
that thought they figured out how to get material for resale and
would
persue it. Usually they got caught or if not a few got move away from
access and the problem would go away, and later they would too.
The other was the true salvage market where used and junked systems
were sold and outfit would break them up and sell the pieces or feed
the second sourced spares market. Often the parts/modules were
out of rev or worse bad. DEC did try to control that by making salvagers
work under contract that they would destroy or reduce to small
pieces unusable for remaking systems.
This had two major effects. It made it harder for people that were making
personal systems to find usable parts inexpensively or even new from DEC.
The other was systems that would be considered rare or scarce that got
into that system plain disappeared as trash.
But as you say, you were there and I wasn't, so
the story is hardly
incontrovertible. It was already hearsay when I heard it 20ish years
ago.
-ethan
Some of it was never easy to ascertain what the details were or if true
and some was known to be true. in the end theft, greed and corporate
CYA resulted in a lot of material we'd gladly pay for then and now
being scrapped.
Allison
26 Mar
26 Mar
1:59 a.m.
Hi a few things to add.
1. Working in the? UK well sort of.
2. A couple of weeks in the UK, a week in the US and a week in Europe would
be an average month.
3. By then DEC had plants world wide. Marlboro (Mass), Westfield Mass,
Nashua (New Hampshire), Phoenix (Ariz), Puerto Rico, Kanata (Canada), Galway
(Ireland). Lots of scope for scrap leakage there
4. By then there was no longer anything made in the mill and the head office
had moved to Parker Street.
5. I can remember the Parker Street car park. Full except for a battered
Pinto with an empty space front and back and one to each side. Yes it was
Ken Olsen's car. I remember Ken addressing a meeting with the old line about
'my door is always open' He was being truthful; His office did not have a
door. He had the usual set up for a manager. Outer office for a secretary
and an inside door to the inner office. He sat in the outer office (without
a door) which gave onto the general open plan area and his secretary had the
inner one. His phone was on his desk he answered it himself if was in.
Regards
Rod Smallwood
-----Original Message-----
From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks
Sent: 25 March 2010 13:47
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Scrapping and re-use (was Re: Talking of old IBM systems)
On 3/25/10, Rod Smallwood <rodsmallwood at btconnect.com> wrote:
Although I was working at DEC at the time I do not
remember anything about
scrapped boards being resold.
You were working in the UK, were you not? The stories I was hearing
were told to me at a DECUS in the late 1980s in Anaheim, presumably
about activities in the States.
If they were in systems on Field Service
contracts the ECO levels and where they had them,
serial numbers would
give
them away. Even in those far off days systems were
quite well documented.
Certainly. There was also a lot of "self-maintenance" at the time, at
least in the US. If folks could not afford DEC Field Service, there
were third-party vendors galore to turn to for board-level spares.
When the company was doing well, most of our big machines were under
contract, but over time, more and more were allowed to lapse until I
was doing maintenance for 95% of what broke, just as an example.
Any items from this stream were already gray-market before they hit
the streets. My understanding is that the arrangement was discovered
when the occasional naive customer attempted to get service for
something from DEC and the numbers didn't check out, so in the end the
system "worked", even if there was a gap for a time.
If they were not under warranty and not under FS
contract they would not
have been considered DEC's problem. If they were
manufacturing rejects
they
would have had the gold edge connectors cut off.
There would have been plenty of salvageable stuff even if 100% of the
Qbus and Unibus boards had the fingers cut off before leaving the Mill
(though it's entirely possible the scrappers were originally cutting
those off themselves for gold recovery - it would have depended
entirely on the arrangements negotiated). Back in the early-to-mid
1980s, intact system boards would have had a high potential resale
value, but practically any DEC part was bought and sold by third-party
vendors. Someone just took advantage of a situation, which was
corrected by shoving all the material through teeth that let nothing
bigger than a large postage stamp through.
But as you say, you were there and I wasn't, so the story is hardly
incontrovertible. It was already hearsay when I heard it 20ish years
ago.
-ethan
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days inactive
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days old
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