30 Jun
2010
30 Jun
'10
6:01 p.m.
I rescued one of these ancient Bernoulli boxes today. It uses the large
(8") cartridges at 20MB each, and it has two slots for the cartridges.
Other than for hearing some of the folklore about the drives, I don't
know much about it. I'd like to see it run and be usable, but I need
some help.
- Is it SCSI? If so, what's the pinout on the back? It has a 37 pin
female connector that I'm not familiar with if it is SCSI.
- Where is the head mechanism? Is it fairly robust and protected if
there are no cartridges inserted? This one has no major dents, but it
has not been babied either. I don't want to waste time on it if it's
just going to be a heartache. (I have enough of that already.)
- Cartridges look like they are on eBay. They are cheap enough for me
to experiment with.
- Is there anything I should know about these beasts before I attempt
powering on and working with it?
Thanks,
Mike
30 Jun
30 Jun
6:52 p.m.
On 30 Jun 2010 at 20:01, Michael B. Brutman wrote:
- Is it SCSI? If so, what's the pinout on the
back? It has a 37 pin
female connector that I'm not familiar with if it is SCSI.
Yes, it is. The Iomega PC2 SCSI adapter has a DC37M on the bracket.
I believe the pinout is the old Novell SCSI one:
http://sysdoc.doors.ch/BLACKBOX/17972.PDF
- Where is the head mechanism? Is it fairly robust
and protected if
there are no cartridges inserted? This one has no major dents, but it
has not been babied either. I don't want to waste time on it if it's
just going to be a heartache. (I have enough of that already.)
I like the old Bernoulli boxes very much. Because of the physics of
the thing (Bernoulli's principle), the disks were pretty much
uncrashable.
You can demonstrate the principle for yourself by taking a playing
card (or other semi-stiff card) and a common thread spool. Push a
pin through the middle of the card and insert the pin into the hole
in the center of the spool (the pin simply keeps the card centered).
Now with the card against the spool, blow through the spool as hard
as you can. You'd think that the card would be blown off, but it
isn't--it floats against the spool on a thin cushion of air.
Ah-ha! so if we substitute a disk for the card and a flat plate with
a head embedded in the surface, we have a crashproof drive!
The other upside is that the whole affair is at a positive pressure
to the atmosphere and so is self-purging.
Great stuff and very much unlike the Zip and Jaz abominations.
The early (5MB and 20MB) Bernoullis used a somewhat oversimplified
SCSI command set. I've never tried one on a late SCSI controller,
but it should work.
--Chuck
6:59 p.m.
On 1 July 2010 02:52, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
On 30 Jun 2010 at 20:01, Michael B. Brutman wrote:
If anyone has a hankering for a Bernouilli Box, I think I have 1 or 2
of the 5?" models gathering dust in the garage. Free for the cost of
postage.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508
- Is it SCSI? ?If so, what's the pinout on
the back? ?It has a 37 pin
female connector that I'm not familiar with if it is SCSI.
Yes, it is. ?The Iomega PC2 SCSI adapter has a DC37M on the bracket.
I believe the pinout is the old Novell SCSI one:
http://sysdoc.doors.ch/BLACKBOX/17972.PDF
- Where is the head mechanism? ?Is it fairly
robust and protected if
there are no cartridges inserted? ?This one has no major dents, but it
has not been babied either. ?I don't want to waste time on it if it's
just going to be a heartache. ?(I have enough of that already.)
I like the old Bernoulli boxes very much. ?Because of the physics of
the thing (Bernoulli's principle), the disks were pretty much
uncrashable.
You can demonstrate the principle for yourself by taking a playing
card (or other semi-stiff card) and a common thread spool. ?Push a
pin through the middle of the card and insert the pin into the hole
in the center of the spool (the pin simply keeps the card centered).
Now with the card against the spool, blow through the spool as hard
as you can. ?You'd think that the card would be blown off, but it
isn't--it floats against the spool on a thin cushion of air.
Ah-ha! ?so if we substitute a disk for the card and a flat plate with
a head embedded in the surface, we have a crashproof drive!
The other upside is that the whole affair is at a positive pressure
to the atmosphere and so is self-purging.
Great stuff and very much unlike the Zip and Jaz abominations.
The early (5MB and 20MB) Bernoullis used a somewhat oversimplified
SCSI command set. ?I've never tried one on a late SCSI controller,
but it should work.
7:58 p.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
The giant filter on the back confirms that it uses a lot of air. :-)
I like my Zip drives though - I've been lucky and have not had the click
of death. They are great for vintage machines - parallel port versions
for the PCs, and SCSI for anything else.
Mike
On 30 Jun 2010 at 20:01, Michael B. Brutman wrote:
Ok, good news so far then. I've never encountered the DC37M on SCSI
before so I have to find a cable or an adapter. All of my other SCSI
gear uses the Mac connectors (25 pin) or Centronics, so I'm stuck for a
bit until I find a source. (Or learn how to make a proper cable.)
- Is it SCSI? If so, what's the pinout on
the back? It has a 37 pin
female connector that I'm not familiar with if it is SCSI.
Yes, it is. The Iomega PC2 SCSI adapter has a DC37M on the bracket.
I believe the pinout is the old Novell SCSI one:
http://sysdoc.doors.ch/BLACKBOX/17972.PDF - Where is the
head mechanism? Is it fairly robust and protected if
there are no cartridges inserted? This one has no major dents, but it
has not been babied either. I don't want to waste time on it if it's
just going to be a heartache. (I have enough of that already.)
I like the old Bernoulli boxes very much. Because of the physics of
the thing (Bernoulli's principle), the disks were pretty much
uncrashable.
You can demonstrate the principle for yourself by taking a playing
card (or other semi-stiff card) and a common thread spool. Push a
pin through the middle of the card and insert the pin into the hole
in the center of the spool (the pin simply keeps the card centered).
Now with the card against the spool, blow through the spool as hard
as you can. You'd think that the card would be blown off, but it
isn't--it floats against the spool on a thin cushion of air.
Ah-ha! so if we substitute a disk for the card and a flat plate with
a head embedded in the surface, we have a crashproof drive!
The other upside is that the whole affair is at a positive pressure
to the atmosphere and so is self-purging.
Great stuff and very much unlike the Zip and Jaz abominations.
The early (5MB and 20MB) Bernoullis used a somewhat oversimplified
SCSI command set. I've never tried one on a late SCSI controller,
but it should work.
--Chuck 
1 Jul
1 Jul
9:29 a.m.
On 6/30/10 9:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I like the old Bernoulli boxes very much. Because of
the physics of
the thing (Bernoulli's principle), the disks were pretty much
uncrashable.
...
Great stuff and very much unlike the Zip and Jaz
abominations.
Agreed 100%. I used Bernoulli drives for years, the 10+10 and 20+20
eight-inchers both at home and at work, and then the 5.25" drives
(mainly 44MB) at work. The latter are standard generic SCSI and seemed
to be compatible with pretty much everything. I've seen ONE lose data,
once, due to physical contamination. Otherwise they were extremely
reliable.
For a time about ten years ago, the 5.25" Bernoulli drives were
appearing at scrappers by the hundreds. I really regret not having
grabbed a drive or two. They'd be very handy now for PDP-11 hacking.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
9:58 a.m.
On 1 Jul 2010 at 12:29, Dave McGuire wrote:
For a time about ten years ago, the 5.25"
Bernoulli drives were
appearing at scrappers by the hundreds. I really regret not having
grabbed a drive or two. They'd be very handy now for PDP-11 hacking.
Even the 5.25" units were built like tanks. I still have a dual 90MB
unit here that occasionally sees use. The largest made was, what,
230MB?
I think the thing that doomed them was the price--they weren't cheap
and the bytes-per-buck got to be too low for competition.
The same with MO drives probably holds. I may still have a Pinnacle
Apex 4.3GB drive here somewhere. In addition to being somewhat
delicate, it was very expensive when compared to a standard IDE
drive.
I don't consider the later cheap removable-media drives like Zip,
Jaz, Sparq... to be in the same reliability category as the
Bernoullis. It's a shame that the technology was abandoned.
--Chuck
10:33 a.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 12:58 PM
Subject: Re: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H)
On 1 Jul 2010 at 12:29, Dave McGuire wrote:
I had the chance to pick up a few Bernouli 5.25" drives 5 years ago for free
with media and passed, instead I loaded my car up with a 1.3GB MO drive and
100 carts (40 or so NIB). These days when I actually collect computers that
came before the 386 era I kind of regret not grabbing the Bernouli drives.
Zip, Jazz, and Sparc do not seem as rugged as the Syquest 44/88MB carts I do
have (they look like HD platters). Were the Bernouli 5.25" some kind of
super flexible floppy?
For a time about ten years ago, the 5.25"
Bernoulli drives were
appearing at scrappers by the hundreds. I really regret not having
grabbed a drive or two. They'd be very handy now for PDP-11 hacking.
Even the 5.25" units were built like tanks. I still have a dual 90MB
unit here that occasionally sees use. The largest made was, what,
230MB?
I think the thing that doomed them was the price--they weren't cheap
and the bytes-per-buck got to be too low for competition.
The same with MO drives probably holds. I may still have a Pinnacle
Apex 4.3GB drive here somewhere. In addition to being somewhat
delicate, it was very expensive when compared to a standard IDE
drive.
I don't consider the later cheap removable-media drives like Zip,
Jaz, Sparq... to be in the same reliability category as the
Bernoullis. It's a shame that the technology was abandoned.
--Chuck
12:15 p.m.
On 1 Jul 2010 at 13:33, Teo Zenios wrote:
Zip, Jazz, and Sparc do not seem as rugged as the
Syquest 44/88MB
carts I do have (they look like HD platters). Were the Bernouli 5.25"
some kind of super flexible floppy?
A non-contact floppy, yes. The Bernoulli effect creates a thin, but
stable gap. Without bothering to grab a cartridge, I seem to
remember that Bernoulli media was hard-sectored as well.
On the subject of interesting applications of the Bernoulli effect, I
found this paper on a wall-climbing robot that uses the effect to
cling to a vertical surface:
http://tinyurl.com/23gw54e
--Chuck
10:38 a.m.
On 7/1/10 12:58 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Absolutely; the decline started with the Zip drives. They are cute,
but terribly unreliable and generally a pain in the butt to deal with.
The Bernoullis were practically indestructible.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
For a time
about ten years ago, the 5.25" Bernoulli drives were
appearing at scrappers by the hundreds. I really regret not having
grabbed a drive or two. They'd be very handy now for PDP-11 hacking.
Even the 5.25" units were built like tanks. I still have a dual 90MB
unit here that occasionally sees use. The largest made was, what,
230MB?
I think the thing that doomed them was the price--they weren't cheap
and the bytes-per-buck got to be too low for competition.
The same with MO drives probably holds. I may still have a Pinnacle
Apex 4.3GB drive here somewhere. In addition to being somewhat
delicate, it was very expensive when compared to a standard IDE
drive.
I don't consider the later cheap removable-media drives like Zip,
Jaz, Sparq... to be in the same reliability category as the
Bernoullis. It's a shame that the technology was abandoned. 
3:19 p.m.
At 08:01 PM 6/30/2010 -0500, you wrote:
I rescued one of these ancient Bernoulli boxes today.
It uses the
large (8") cartridges at 20MB each, and it has two slots for the cartridges.
Other than for hearing some of the folklore about the drives, I don't know
much about it. I'd like to see it run and be usable, but I need some help.
- Is it SCSI? If so, what's the pinout on the back? It has a 37 pin
female connector that I'm not familiar with if it is SCSI.
- Where is the head mechanism? Is it fairly robust and protected if there
are no cartridges inserted? This one has no major dents, but it has not
been babied either. I don't want to waste time on it if it's just going
to be a heartache. (I have enough of that already.)
- Cartridges look like they are on eBay. They are cheap enough for me to
experiment with.
- Is there anything I should know about these beasts before I attempt
powering on and working with it?
Oh man, remember when 20mb of storage, especially REMOVEABLE STORAGE, was a
WHOLE LOT OF SPACE!
I still have my dual 20mb and about 10 cartriges, and an ISA bus interface
card. I've always wanted to get it working just for demonstration/nostalgia
purposes.
When I bought it, it came with 5 cartridges. The IT manager at the foundry
(real metal formers, these guys) wasn't too up on stuff, so he insisted
that the cartridges be bulk-erased before I could have them. Since the
cartridges have a servo track on them that the drive depends on, those 5
were forevermore useless. But they had 5 more I managed to talk them into
NOT bulking-- they erased them using some formatting utility.
If anyone figures out how to run them off my Adaptec 2940 cards, let me know.
73 de N9QQB
-----
1006. There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in their
home. --
Ken Olson (President of Digital Equipment Corporation) at the Convention
of the World Future Society in Boston in 1977
--... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -...
tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio)
"HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixcom.com/tpeters
43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square
EN53wc
WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531
8:45 p.m.
I need a source for a cable and cartridges. There are some cartridges
on eBay that I can throw a few bucks at, but the cable is a little more
difficult.
Does anybody know of a good source for off-the-wall SCSI cabling? I'd
like to run this from a SCSI 1 or SCSI 2 card, and I have a variety of
cabling that has Centronics or DB25 connectors. But the DB37 is foreign
to me, so I need to find a cable or an adapter for my existing cables.
I have a PCjr with a native SCSI sidecar. It's just screaming 'Bernoulli!'
Mike
9:09 p.m.
On 1 Jul 2010 at 22:45, Michael B. Brutman wrote:
Does anybody know of a good source for off-the-wall
SCSI cabling? I'd
like to run this from a SCSI 1 or SCSI 2 card, and I have a variety of
cabling that has Centronics or DB25 connectors. But the DB37 is
foreign to me, so I need to find a cable or an adapter for my existing
cables.
The original 5.25" PC2 cable was a DC37F on the controller end and a
50-position "Amphenol"/"Blue
Ribbon"/"Telco"/"Centronics" male at the
far end of the cable that hooked to the drive.
But I've got the ugly suspicion that going from a DB25 to a DC37 is
going to be an exercise for your crimpers and some multiconductor
round cable. It's been a long time since I've seen a DC37
Novell/Procomp SCSI cable.
--Chuck
10 Jul
10 Jul
10:46 a.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 1 Jul 2010 at 22:45, Michael B. Brutman wrote:
I was able to find the cable from a list member (Thanks Rick!), but I'm
still having doubts about this thing being SCSI. There is no provision
for setting the ID on the case, and there is no termination or passthru
to continue the SCSI chain. It's possible that it is terminated by the
electronics inside and that the ID is buried inside before too, but I'm
going to have to get very involved to open it up.
Can anybody confirm that the older Bernoulli boxes were SCSI? What
controllers are you using them on?
Regards,
Mike
Does anybody know of a good source for
off-the-wall SCSI cabling? I'd
like to run this from a SCSI 1 or SCSI 2 card, and I have a variety of
cabling that has Centronics or DB25 connectors. But the DB37 is
foreign to me, so I need to find a cable or an adapter for my existing
cables.
The original 5.25" PC2 cable was a DC37F on the controller end and a
50-position "Amphenol"/"Blue
Ribbon"/"Telco"/"Centronics" male at the
far end of the cable that hooked to the drive.
But I've got the ugly suspicion that going from a DB25 to a DC37 is
going to be an exercise for your crimpers and some multiconductor
round cable. It's been a long time since I've seen a DC37
Novell/Procomp SCSI cable.
--Chuck
2:27 p.m.
On 10 Jul 2010 at 12:46, Michael B. Brutman wrote:
I was able to find the cable from a list member
(Thanks Rick!), but
I'm still having doubts about this thing being SCSI. There is no
provision for setting the ID on the case, and there is no termination
or passthru to continue the SCSI chain. It's possible that it is
terminated by the electronics inside and that the ID is buried inside
before too, but I'm going to have to get very involved to open it up.
I'm assuming that this model is the one that's got a 5150-style case
(i..e. beige/putty color with a lighter PC-style bezel on the front).
I've got a PC2B-50 controller that came with the 150MB unit (DC37 on
the rear) and it's the same that was used with the 10MB Bernoullis.
Take a peek inside your box--you should see that the DC37 on the rear
connects to a 50 pin header on each drive. If not, I don't know
what's going on.
Note that I say "SCSI-ish". The later models were completely SCSI-1
compliant, but some of the earlier models didn't support all of the
SCSI command set for mass-storage devices.
--Chuck
5:22 p.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
I'm assuming that this model is the one that's
got a 5150-style case
(i..e. beige/putty color with a lighter PC-style bezel on the front).
I've got a PC2B-50 controller that came with the 150MB unit (DC37 on
the rear) and it's the same that was used with the 10MB Bernoullis.
Take a peek inside your box--you should see that the DC37 on the rear
connects to a 50 pin header on each drive. If not, I don't know
what's going on.
Note that I say "SCSI-ish". The later models were completely SCSI-1
compliant, but some of the earlier models didn't support all of the
SCSI command set for mass-storage devices.
--Chuck
It has the beige/putty case. I took a look inside of it and found the
DC37 feeding a 50 pin connector, just as you described.
I think I have a cabling problem. I was able to hack together a
solution that allowed me to connect directly to the drive, bypassing the
DC37 connector. The drive showed up on the SCSI chain, but that's as
far as I'm going to get without media.
So yes, I think it is SCSI. Just need to figure out the cabling
problem. The cable that I got looked like a sure bet - Centronics style
connector on one side, DC37 on the other.
Mike
PS: You must have quite a stash. I'll bet you're missing a PCjr though. :-)
5:30 p.m.
On 10 Jul 2010 at 19:22, Michael B. Brutman wrote:
I think I have a cabling problem. I was able to hack
together a
solution that allowed me to connect directly to the drive, bypassing
the DC37 connector. The drive showed up on the SCSI chain, but that's
as far as I'm going to get without media.
Get your nibbler and drill out and replace that DC37 with a 50-
conductor "Amphenol/Blue Ribbon/Centronics" connector or even a 50
position HD SCSI connector. Actually, two would be nice--that would
allow you to daisy-chain off the device.
PS: You must have quite a stash. I'll bet
you're missing a PCjr
though. :-)
Heh, I never wanted one. :)
--Chuck
7:31 p.m.
At 08:22 PM 7/10/2010, Michael B. Brutman wrote:
I think I have a cabling problem. I was able to hack
together a
solution that allowed me to connect directly to the drive, bypassing
the DC37 connector. The drive showed up on the SCSI chain, but that's
as far as I'm going to get without media.
So yes, I think it is SCSI. Just need to figure out the cabling
problem. The cable that I got looked like a sure bet - Centronics
style connector on one side, DC37 on the other.
Rats. I really hoped that the cable would work. I did look around for
the controller card that went along with it, but no luck.
It was a small 8-bit ISA card with basically a simple SCSI/SASI chip
and not much else. Unfortunately, I dumped most of my ISA boards a year
or so ago.
-Rick
7 Aug
7 Aug
2:30 p.m.
Almost there ...
I got a good tip that 10MB cartridges would work in a 20MB drive. I
found 10MB cartridges on eBay at a reasonable price, and they at least
fit in the drive.
I connected the drive to an older Linux machine, figuring that I would
need all of the tools that I could get my hands on. Linux sees it as a
10MB mass storage device with 39168 256 byte sectors. This is goodness.
The bad part is that Linux, even on an older kernel like 2.6.16 doesn't
seem to know how to deal with 256 byte sectored media. Any attempt to
read from the device reports a buffer underrun which always shows that
the number of bytes read is half of what was asked.
Some quick Googling did not find a method around this. I'm going to
have to go back to something much older, like a 2.2 or 2.4 kernel and
hope things are better. Or go to DOS with the Iomega software, but I
don't have that yet.
On the positive side, the drive is running. And it's a noisy beast,
befitting it's size. :-)
Special thanks to ChuckG for nudging me in the write direction.. It's
SCSI enough for Linux to talk to it. And to Jim Scheef who gave me the
tip about the 10MB media working in a 20MB drive.
Mike
3:26 p.m.
On 7 Aug 2010 at 16:30, Michael B. Brutman wrote:
Some quick Googling did not find a method around this.
I'm going to
have to go back to something much older, like a 2.2 or 2.4 kernel and
hope things are better. Or go to DOS with the Iomega software, but I
don't have that yet.
256-byte sectors and Linux don't seem to like each other. I think
that Linux likes to buffer 512-byte sectors and gets confused when
presented with something else.
However, I think that sg_dd might at least read and write in raw
form, to and from your drives:
http://linux.die.net/man/8/sg_dd
The alternative might be to hack an existing driver to transfer two
sectors when one is requested.
--Chuck
9 Aug
9 Aug
10:27 p.m.
I'm really starting to regret even thinking about tinkering with these
things - they are maddening.
A220H (8" 20MB drive) with 10MB cartridges:
- If it is SCSI then a lot was not implemented. (No ID string or
version numbers for example)
- 256 byte sectors - yuk.
- Don't even bother with the Linux 2.6 kernel.
- Can be read with an older Linux 2.2 kernel, but not written. The OS
tries to query the drive to see if it is write protected and gets an
invalid response back, so it assumes read only.
- On a genuine XT with the original Iomega PC2B-50 controller card and
original Iomega software the drive can be seen. But the drive doesn't
seem to like the cartridges - they spin up when first inserted, and then
spin down to an inactive state quickly after. Trying to access or
format the drives gives me errors. The docs are not clear, but they
hint that 10MB cartridges are read only in a 20MB drive.
Bernoulli Box 2 (5.25", 20MB drive):
- Definitely SCSI - the ID string shows up nicely.
- 256 byte sectors - still yuk.
- The Linux 2.2 machine can do raw reads and writes using dd! Ok, so at
least I can prove that the thing works. With some cajoling I can
partition the disk, but I can't write a filesystem for some bizarre
reason. So I'm stuck with sector reads and writes.
- On a genuine XT with the PC2B-50 controller card and software the
device driver doesn't see the drive at all. (I accidently got the
machine/card to try to boot from the drive, and it read at least a
sector. So it's not hopeless.)
- Under DOS on a 386 with an ASPI manager I can see the drive but can't
partition the media. Everything I've tried things the capacity is 0.
So, if anybody out there had an early Bernoulli Box setup, please
contact me off list - I have a lot of questions. I'd just like to get
to some known good working configuration and branch out from there.
Things I'm interested in particular:
- What SCSI adapter were you using? What device drivers and OS?
- On the older 8" drives - are 10" carts read only, or should they be
writable too?
- Does anybody know of a source for 20MB cartridges for the older 8"
drive? Having used 10MB cartridges that I'm not sure I can write too is
kind of useless.
I'm going to need therapy after this. I have thought about throwing the
damned things out the window.
Mike
10:59 p.m.
On Tue, 10 Aug 2010, Michael B. Brutman wrote:
I'm going to need therapy after this. I have
thought about throwing the
damned things out the window.
If you had complete access to Iomega "technical support", you would now be
ready to defenestrate them, also.
IIRC, there was a class action lawsuit!
For many years, it was "impossible" to reach a human being with ANY
question (including basic specs) until they had money from you.
I had one of their "Ditto"? tape drives, and wanted to know whether it
could use the new Verbatim extra length cartridges. It was not possible
to get an answer! "Punch in your credit card number. If the problem is
determined to be a defective product, then your charges will be reversed
in a few months."
Ended up confronting one of their engineers at Comdex, resulting in
getting a copy of "the new version of the software", and the drive never
worked again. But the dog trainers loved having a free source of
clickers!
I sold the drive for $1 ar Foothill, but had to throw in tapes with it.
Think "almost" SCSI, NOT SCSI.
At least some were read-only of the previous media - I don't remember
whether that was 10 V 20 or some other transition.
They came out with some exciting products, but reliability went steadily
downhill.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
11:19 p.m.
On 9 Aug 2010 at 22:59, Fred Cisin wrote:
If you had complete access to Iomega "technical
support", you would
now be ready to defenestrate them, also. IIRC, there was a class
action lawsuit! For many years, it was "impossible" to reach a human
being with ANY question (including basic specs) until they had money
from you.
Hmmm, I never had any problems with Iomega tech support. They even
gave me a set of drives with technical documentation free gratis and
followed up with a couple of calls to see how I was getting on.
It probably helped that I had the IRS for a customer at the time.
Nothing like support from techs with high-level marketing types
breathing down their necks.
Think "almost" SCSI, NOT SCSI.
At least some were read-only of the previous media - I don't remember
whether that was 10 V 20 or some other transition.
I DID say "SCSI-ish". Later drives got better with conformity to
SCSI-2 standards. To be fair, in the early days of SCSI, there was
"Apple SCSI" and everyone else.
--Chuck
11:01 p.m.
On 8/10/10 1:27 AM, Michael B. Brutman wrote:
Things I'm interested in particular:
- What SCSI adapter were you using? What device drivers and OS?
Adaptec 1542C. I don't recall which drivers, this was ~1991 or so.
I'm almost thinking there weren't any drivers (the 1542C had an onboard
BIOS ROM) but I seem to recall having a special formatting program.
(this was with a 44MB drive) The OS in use was DOS, probably v3.3.
- On the older 8" drives - are 10" carts
read only, or should they be
writable too?
Digging in very dusty memory here; I used quite a few of these. I'm
kinda sad that I don't have any left, but I've not touched them since
about 1991. I used the 10MB and 20MB 8" drives at home, and 5.25" 44MB
drives at work around that time, both under DOS. Distant memories
suggest that the 10MB disks are read-only in 20MB drives but I'm not
positive. At home I had an Iomega controller board for the 8" drives,
PC2-something.
- Does anybody know of a source for 20MB cartridges
for the older 8"
drive? Having used 10MB cartridges that I'm not sure I can write too is
kind of useless.
...eBay...not hard to find..
I'm going to need therapy after this. I have
thought about throwing the
damned things out the window.
;)
I actually had really good luck with them. I had dozens of disks, but
I think I only had one or two of the 8" disks fail, and I've never seen
a 44MB disk fail. They're surprisingly reliable.
Oh wait, I DO have one 8" subsystem left, it's a dual 20MB subsystem
on a PDP-11 in a Kevex spectrometer for my SEM. I've not actually tried
to fire it up, it's in storage so I can't look at it, but I know I still
have it. Someday, when there's time..
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
11:09 p.m.
On Tue, 10 Aug 2010, Dave McGuire wrote:
(this was with a 44MB drive) The OS in use was DOS,
probably v3.3.
PC-DOS 3.30 and MS-DOS 3.30 couldn't believe that a drive could be over
32M. But, they could be tricked into thinking the drive was a network
device, instead of a drive with MSCDEX or equivalent (from DOS 3.10 on,
with mostly undocumented "network defirector").
MS-DOS 3.31 and PC-DOS 4.00 could comptrehend drives larger than 32M.
IIRC, Iomega had some squirelly software to use on older DOS.
11:13 p.m.
On 8/10/10 2:09 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:
Yes, the 44MB disks were all partitioned as ~32MB and ~10-11MB and
showed up as two drives.
(this was with
a 44MB drive) The OS in use was DOS, probably v3.3.
PC-DOS 3.30 and MS-DOS 3.30 couldn't believe that a drive could be over
32M. But, they could be tricked into thinking the drive was a network
device, instead of a drive with MSCDEX or equivalent (from DOS 3.10 on,
with mostly undocumented "network defirector").
MS-DOS 3.31 and PC-DOS 4.00 could comptrehend drives larger than 32M. IIRC, Iomega had some squirelly software to use on
older DOS.
I seem to recall having heard about that, but I don't think we ever
used it.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
10 Aug
10 Aug
6:48 a.m.
Dave McGuire wrote:
The Iomega controller is a PC2B-50. (There is a version without a boot
ROM too.) I have two samples of these, so I'm ok there.
Point me at some off list. I've been looking for over two months. I've
found 10MB carts (bought the only 5 that were there), an original manual
for the 10MB 8" units with software, and a controller card. But the
20MB 8" disks haven't been there, unless I'm doing something very wrong.
I think the build quality and the technology were great for the time,
and that's why I want to get one working. This is the kind of thing
that was 'high end' back when I was a PC user, and the Bernoulli boxes
were legendary for being tough and weird. So I'm really motivated to
get one of these working. But wow, there just isn't a lot of
information out there - this stuff is dangerously close to falling into
the bit bucket.
On 8/10/10 1:27 AM, Michael B. Brutman wrote:
I'm using the Adaptec ASPI utilities, but not on an Adaptec card. I'll
fix that tonight. (I have a 1542CF that I can put in the machine,
although I hate changing the config on my machines.)
Things I'm interested in particular:
- What SCSI adapter were you using? What device drivers and OS?
Adaptec 1542C. I don't recall which drivers, this was ~1991 or so.
I'm almost thinking there weren't any drivers (the 1542C had an onboard
BIOS ROM) but I seem to recall having a special formatting program.
(this was with a 44MB drive) The OS in use was DOS, probably v3.3. - On the older
8" drives - are 10" carts read only, or should they be
writable too?
Digging in very dusty memory here; I used quite a few of these. I'm
kinda sad that I don't have any left, but I've not touched them since
about 1991. I used the 10MB and 20MB 8" drives at home, and 5.25" 44MB
drives at work around that time, both under DOS. Distant memories
suggest that the 10MB disks are read-only in 20MB drives but I'm not
positive. At home I had an Iomega controller board for the 8" drives,
PC2-something. - Does anybody
know of a source for 20MB cartridges for the older 8"
drive? Having used 10MB cartridges that I'm not sure I can write too is
kind of useless.
...eBay...not hard to find.. I'm going
to need therapy after this. I have thought about throwing the
damned things out the window.
;)
I actually had really good luck with them. I had dozens of disks, but
I think I only had one or two of the 8" disks fail, and I've never seen
a 44MB disk fail. They're surprisingly reliable. Oh wait, I DO have one 8" subsystem left,
it's a dual 20MB subsystem
on a PDP-11 in a Kevex spectrometer for my SEM. I've not actually tried
to fire it up, it's in storage so I can't look at it, but I know I still
have it. Someday, when there's time..
-Dave
Mike
9:31 a.m.
On 8/10/10 9:48 AM, Michael B. Brutman wrote:
Point me at some off list. I've been looking for over two months. I've
found 10MB carts (bought the only 5 that were there), an original manual
for the 10MB 8" units with software, and a controller card. But the
20MB 8" disks haven't been there, unless I'm doing something very wrong.
Just sent you four auction numbers off-list.
I think the build quality and the technology were great for the time,
and that's why I want to get one working. This is the kind of thing
that was 'high end' back when I was a PC user, and the Bernoulli boxes
were legendary for being tough and weird. So I'm really motivated to
get one of these working. But wow, there just isn't a lot of
information out there - this stuff is dangerously close to falling into
the bit bucket.
Well send them to me if you give up! ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
- Does anybody know of a source for 20MB cartridges
for the older 8"
drive? Having used 10MB cartridges that I'm not sure I can write too is
kind of useless.
...eBay...not hard to find.. I'm going to need therapy after this. I have
thought about throwing the
damned things out the window.
;)
I actually had really good luck with them. I had dozens of disks, but
I think I only had one or two of the 8" disks fail, and I've never seen
a 44MB disk fail. They're surprisingly reliable.
10:16 a.m.
Quoting Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>:
Grateful for the help, but all of those are the smaller 5.25"
cartridges. I have those already for the newer BBox - it's the 8"
BBox that I need them for. The 10MB carts prove basic operation
(reading at least), but I can't do anything useful unless I can write.
The 8" carts are more rectangular in shape - when they went to the
5.25" carts they started looking more like oversized 3.5" floppies,
complete with a shutter mechanism. An 8" cart has no shutter
mechanism - the heads get inserted through the short edge. In a
sleeve you cant' see anything, so the shape is the giveaway.
Mike
Point me at
some off list. I've been looking for over two months. I've
found 10MB carts (bought the only 5 that were there), an original manual
for the 10MB 8" units with software, and a controller card. But the
20MB 8" disks haven't been there, unless I'm doing something very wrong.
Just sent you four auction numbers off-list.
12 Aug
12 Aug
7:40 p.m.
Ok, some small progress.
The 5.25" Bernoulli Box II (20MB) is working. I have a newer set of
software (RCD v4.7), DOS 2.1, and the Iomega PC2B-50 interface card all
running in an XT. My previous problem is that the newer drive didn't
like the older Iomega software I was using. As an aside, the newer
version of the software doesn't work under DOS 5. I think they claim to
support only DOS 2.x and 3.x.
I'm in the market for any newer version of the Iomega software for a
Bernoulli box is somebody has a it stashed somewhere.
The newer software looks like it works with the older 8" drives - the
diagnostic program recognizes the drive. But my 10MB carts are not
recognized by the drive - it spins them up, and then spins them down.
All of the Iomega software reports that the drive is not ready. This is
baffling to me because under Linux they were spinning up and staying
online. (I'll have to move back to a Linux box again to verify that
nothing has broken.)
That box really needs a 20MB cartridge to prove that it works. But it's
close.
If anybody wants the RCD v4.7 drivers give me a shout off-list.
Regards,
Mike
12 Feb
12 Feb
4:34 p.m.
It's alive!
For those of you who don't recall a thread from six months ago, I was
trying to get an old Bernoulli Box running again. This was a Model A220
- two 20MB 8" drives in an enclosure. I finally found somebody with
cartridges that I could purchase and was able to get it going.
Some things I learned along the way ..
- The head cleaning kit is essential. The drive was ridiculously flakey
until after five or six sessions with the cleaning cartridge, which
basically lets you wipe a giant wet pad on the head by manipulating a
lever through the cleaning cartridge. (Strictly a manual operation -
they don't want you to get that cartridge loaded and start spinning it
at 1500 RPM.)
- The 20MB drives will read 10MB cartridges, but not write to them.
- A stock XT can run with the cartridges having an interleave of 4.
That gives you about a 120KB/sec data transfer rate.
- The Iomega controller supports DMA and PIO modes. The PIO mode is
pitifully slow. I won't mention the number here it is so bad.
- The Iomega controller has an optional ROM that can boot the machine
from the drive, but in read only mode only. To be able
to write or do
anything else you need to have a device driver loaded.
The drive is truly marvelous to hear in action, and it's the most
interesting drive I have in the house now. I'm finally happy that I got
it working, although it's cost too much @#$#@ money. (The cartridges
weren't cheap, nor were the controller cards, cleaning kit, etc.)
If anybody has 20MB 8" cartridges or knows of a source, I'm still
looking. There are some on ePay now for price that makes me visibly
wince and consider playing with click-of-death Zip drives instead. (I'm
looking for something a little more reasonable.)
Mike
18 Feb
18 Feb
1:23 p.m.
Weird Stuff Warehouse in Sunnyvale used to have a stack of various sizes
in the back area at their retail store....
steve
On 2/12/2011 4:34 PM, Michael B. Brutman wrote:
It's alive!
For those of you who don't recall a thread from six months ago, I was
trying to get an old Bernoulli Box running again. This was a Model
A220 - two 20MB 8" drives in an enclosure. I finally found somebody
with cartridges that I could purchase and was able to get it going.
Some things I learned along the way ..
- The head cleaning kit is essential. The drive was ridiculously
flakey until after five or six sessions with the cleaning cartridge,
which basically lets you wipe a giant wet pad on the head by
manipulating a lever through the cleaning cartridge. (Strictly a
manual operation - they don't want you to get that cartridge loaded
and start spinning it at 1500 RPM.)
- The 20MB drives will read 10MB cartridges, but not write to them.
- A stock XT can run with the cartridges having an interleave of 4.
That gives you about a 120KB/sec data transfer rate.
- The Iomega controller supports DMA and PIO modes. The PIO mode is
pitifully slow. I won't mention the number here it is so bad.
- The Iomega controller has an optional ROM that can boot the machine
from the drive, but in read only mode only. To be able to write or do
anything else you need to have a device driver loaded.
The drive is truly marvelous to hear in action, and it's the most
interesting drive I have in the house now. I'm finally happy that I
got it working, although it's cost too much @#$#@ money. (The
cartridges weren't cheap, nor were the controller cards, cleaning kit,
etc.)
If anybody has 20MB 8" cartridges or knows of a source, I'm still
looking. There are some on ePay now for price that makes me visibly
wince and consider playing with click-of-death Zip drives instead.
(I'm looking for something a little more reasonable.)
Mike
27 Jul
27 Jul
12:52 p.m.
Mike,
Sorry to bring bad news... The interface on the 8" Bernoulli drives is
proprietary and not even close to SCSI. You will need the Iomega
interface card and one of those PCjr-to-ISA adapters to make it work
with a jr. Even then, without DMA it will be problematic. Back when
Iomega started using a true SCSI interface in their 5 1/4" drives, I
called their tech support and spoke with someone who had been there a
while. He told me the 8" drives (all of them from the original full
height to the 20M 1/2-height used an interface _derived_ from the older
SASI standard used with 8" floppy drives. Even if you wrote a custom
driver, there is no way to make the 8" drives talk to a SCSI host
controller.
If you can find an interface card, I'll send you a couple of 10M
cartridges. I don't have any 20M carts. The 20M drives were backward
compatible. The 10M drives were quite popular where I worked back in the
80's and I salvaged all the carts I could find when people started
throwing them away. Now I wish I had saved a couple of spare drives!
Jim
Michael B. Brutman wrote:
Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 1 Jul 2010 at 22:45, Michael B. Brutman
wrote:
I was able to find the cable from a list member (Thanks Rick!), but I'm
still having doubts about this thing being SCSI. There is no provision
for setting the ID on the case, and there is no termination or passthru
to continue the SCSI chain. It's possible that it is terminated by the
electronics inside and that the ID is buried inside before too, but I'm
going to have to get very involved to open it up.
Can anybody confirm that the older Bernoulli boxes were SCSI? What
controllers are you using them on?
Regards,
Mike
Does anybody know of a good source for
off-the-wall SCSI cabling? I'd
like to run this from a SCSI 1 or SCSI 2 card, and I have a variety of
cabling that has Centronics or DB25 connectors. But the DB37 is
foreign to me, so I need to find a cable or an adapter for my existing
cables.
The original 5.25" PC2 cable was a DC37F on the controller end and a
50-position "Amphenol"/"Blue
Ribbon"/"Telco"/"Centronics" male at the
far end of the cable that hooked to the drive.
But I've got the ugly suspicion that going from a DB25 to a DC37 is
going to be an exercise for your crimpers and some multiconductor
round cable. It's been a long time since I've seen a DC37
Novell/Procomp SCSI cable.
--Chuck
4822
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