28 May
2003
28 May
'03
6:08 a.m.
28 May, 2003
...and then one day you wake up, and things are just not the same
anymore...
And so it is with the 'Computer Garage'...
As of today, I am with great regret announcing the dissolution of the
major part of the Computer Garage collection of classic computers and
related materials.
First; I will detail the method in which this will be done, and then I
will detail the reasons and events that have lead up to this decision.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The dissollution and redistribution:
With the exception of between six and ten units that have particular
'history' with me, all items in the collection will be disbursed. These
items will be specified shortly.
Beginning in a few days, and proceeding over the next few months as needed
a 'catalog' page will be created on the 'Computer Garage' site. For each
item there will be a description, a thumbnail picture when practical, an
estimated shipping weight, and a date.
28 May
28 May
6:24 a.m.
Well having a hobby that outgrows your ability to support it kills any fun
you have doing it. You have to eat first, collect later.
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Willing" <jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 2:07 PM
Subject: The final 'Garage' sale...
28 May, 2003
...and then one day you wake up, and things are just not the same
anymore...
And so it is with the 'Computer Garage'...
As of today, I am with great regret announcing the dissolution of the
major part of the Computer Garage collection of classic computers and
related materials.
First; I will detail the method in which this will be done, and then I
will detail the reasons and events that have lead up to this decision.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
The dissollution and redistribution:
With the exception of between six and ten units that have particular
'history' with me, all items in the collection will be disbursed. These
items will be specified shortly.
Beginning in a few days, and proceeding over the next few months as needed
a 'catalog' page will be created on the 'Computer Garage' site. For
each
item there will be a description, a thumbnail picture when practical, an
estimated shipping weight, and a date.
From the date shown, offers will be taken on the item for seven days. At
the end of that time, the highest offer of reasonable value will be
awarded
the item. If no offers are received on an item, or
the offers are
insufficient, a new date may be established. If an offer is received
that is considered to be unlikely to be matched/exceeded, an item may be
awarded prior to the end of the seven day period.
Since the intent is not to start 'eBay' like bidding wars, the quantity of
or amounts of offers received will not be disclosed either on the page or
through direct communication.
Once an item has been awarded, payment for the item and shipping must be
received within seven days or the item will be offered to the next closest
offer.
Optionally, COD shipment can be requested on a Money Order/Certified Funds
basis, but any COD items will be shipped via 2-3 day method with the
accompaning increase in shipping/handling rate.
There will be one exception in the method of awarding of items with regard
to determination of 'winning' offer. A year or so back, Sellam
spearheaded
a
fund raising drive when a major part of the collection
was in imminent
threat of being lost to a storage auction.
Were it within my pervue at the present time to allow it, I would offer
any of the people who donated funds at the time free choice of some number
of
items that they wished in return for their past
support. However, since
my
current situation does not allow this I offer the
following: Any person
who had donated funds toward the collection's past storage fees who makes
an offer on any item or items will be awarded the item if their offer is
within 25% of the highest offer received for that item during the
offering period.
Hardware and peripheral items will be listed first. Over the next few
weeks/months printed materials will be getting scanned for archiving and
then added to the offering. Many of the printed items had not been
listed on the 'Garage' site so there may be some interesting appearances.
For any given item, if it remains unclaimed for an extended period it will
become subject to disposal by whatever means necessary.
Unpleasant on many levels, but this is what has become necessary.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
What has lead to this action:
The collection as it currenty exists is the end result of nearly thirty
years of working in the computer industry and represents both machines
that I had personally worked with or had a significant interest in, and
machines that I was merely trying to save from the scrap heap.
The sad part about history is that while important, it also tends to be
large and fairly heavy. This is true regardless of if you are speaking
about
books, media, or hardware. And while books and media
can be preserved in
more 'compact' forms, this is not true for the hardware of which I have a
fair
amount.
As one accumulates more, unless they are particularly fortunate or adept
at things financial, they also accumulate ever increasing costs for the
continuing storage and preservation of the materials. After a while,
these costs
can
become overwhelming.
At one point, I was paying over $400.00 a month in storage fees for the
parts of the collection that did not actually reside in the Garage (when
still
located in Oregon). And while I have been able to
significantly reduce
the storage fees since the move to Kansas, they are still nearly $100.00
a month.
While this may seem a somewhat minimal (if not insignificant to some)
amount to deal with, it is actually a larger percentage of my monthly
income with the career change that accompanied the move. So in fact, the
burden has actually increased.
To put this in perspective, when still in Oregon I had personal debts
(mortgage, recurring storage charges, and such things) of over $200,000
which I just never seemed to gain any ground on.
Since the move, I have been able to reduce the remaining debts to right
around $40,000, but have again found myself in the position of just not
being able to gain any ground on them, and more disturbingly as things
slow in the summer season I find myself actually losing ground.
This adversely impacts both the business and family, as we have twice had
to move when unable to keep up with little things like rent, utilities,
etc...
And I've had it with schlepping boxes! And I want to oversee the
redistribution of the items in the collection before I lose control of it.
Establishing and building up the new business/career has taken more time,
investment, and effort than originally expected. And while in general
terms we are not as far off 'plan' as it could have been considering the
current state of the local and national economy, I just can not continue
to ask my family to make additional sacrifices in order to continue to
maintain the collection and then have to struggle by week by week. Were
it just me, it might not be an issue but that is not the situation.
I have maintained the collection as well as financed (when needed) new
acqusitions almost completely out-of-pocket over the years, and long ago
stopped trying to figure how much had been spent in the efforts. It was
just getting too depressing... Even when something is given/donated it
still comes with an attached cost: transport, shipping, storage,
repairs/restoration, etc... There is still 'no free lunch'...
So... barring the arrival of some unforeseen benefactor or a sudden
'lucky streak' in PowerBall, (of course, hard to win when you can't
really afford to play, eh) the sad reality is that it is time to let it
go...
Some may ask, 'if things are that dire, why not a major eBay effort?'
Well; two reasons. I suppose the 'self-serving' one first - I would
prefer that the items went to someone who has some true appreciation for
them rather than just someone who has some money to drop and a big
'bidding jones' on at the moment.
And then, the 'real world' reason - I can't. In part because I owe eBay
money from past auctions and in part because of complaints filed due to
excessive delays in getting items shipped. (Truth sucks some days, eh?)
To get back to some level of 'stability', I need to raise just shy of
$10,000 by mid-August at the latest. Should that effort fail, well...
Unpleasentness at the very least... And to salvage the latest house deal
I need to come up with $2500 in the next couple of weeks.
Life just keeps getting better, eh? (major ironic flag here)
Over the past few months, I've already sacrificed some (non-computer
related) items that had more meaning to me than a large part of the items
remaining in the collection. What an unpleasent realization THAT was one
recent morning...
It just has to stop one way or the other...
All items that have been offered recently will continue to be shipped as
quickly as time and finances permit. Much of the time it is a matter of
getting payments in fast enough to stay ahead of the bills so the bank
does not take the money before I can get to it...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
My warmest regards and thanks to all who have supported my efforts over
the years. My primary regret is that I did not have the skills necessary
to
accomplish the greater goals.
Further announcements to follow...
-jim
---
jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
7:26 a.m.
Yea, I was kind of perplexed why he didn't do this
long ago, there is no way you can start a small
business and maintain such a large collection.
Compound this with the money problems, I would of sold
everything before moving (even those 6 to 10 units he
is not planning on selling).
--- TeoZ <teoz(a)neo.rr.com> wrote:
Well having a hobby that outgrows your ability to
support it kills any fun
you have doing it. You have to eat first, collect
later.
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Willing" <jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 2:07 PM
Subject: The final 'Garage' sale...
28 May, 2003
...and then one day you wake up, and things are
just not the same
8:58 a.m.
Lets face it computers can be an addiction just like alcohol, gambling,
"insert anything fun here", etc.
I have known friends to lose $300 or more in the weekly poker party every
week and still go play even after their phone is turned off and their car
gets repossessed. Its a personality trait. I have more computers that I
really need, but I just collect the ones that I couldnt afford in my youth.
I dont have the need to have 1 of every system ever made, just the ones I
found to be cool. And like quite a few people, I dont want to think about
how much I spent on this hobby. On the PC gaming side I have spent a mint
over the last 10 years having the latest and greatest home game machine.
Thank god equipment has dropped in price quite a bit. Now I just concentrate
on the older retro machines that are not that expensive at all. If I had the
cash and the space I would probably expand my collection to include a few
alpha chip models, an older SGI or sun box. But I have never spent money on
a computer/part/software when I didnt have the cash, or purchased something
before paying my bills.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jay West" <jwest(a)classiccmp.org>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 4:19 PM
Subject: Re: The final 'Garage' sale...
Teo wrote...
You have to eat first, collect later.
Doh! That explains the weight loss *sigh* 
7:16 a.m.
Jim;
As I read your email a profound sadness overcomes.... I guess this hobby
(moreso, to people like us) can very easily become all-consuming both
financially and psychologically. I, and I am quite sure others on the list
definitely feel and share your pain. Several times since getting into the
hobby I have been to the point of just giving up, feeling that required
items for a particular system are simply never to be found again. Or seeing
a particular piece and not being able to swing the cash at the time. Or
putting the family through grief when I stay up till the wee hours for weeks
on end trying to get something working. Or wondering how on earth I'm going
to get a piece that I have obtained transported. Or storage once it
arrives... well, I'm sure everyone here can identify. So far, fortunately,
every time I've hit that point I've been able to overcome it - either with
unwarranted optimism or by walking away from it for a month or so.
It royally sucks to me that many of us (probably not me, but many here
anyways) have extremely important ranges of computing history - and that
without us, they will NOT survive from what I can see, at least as a
representative range of systems. Most museums simply don't care, or want to,
represent the whole of computing history. That is something that is so
central to our culture, the very fabric of our current daily lives. I'm not
talking about a classic "straight 8", or a DG nova - these will likely be
represented. But the entire gamut that we have (most of us) lived through -
from the DECs to the altair and apples and heathkits up
to, yes... I'll say
it... modern PC's. Pick any one of them, and unless
they were in the top
tier of name recognition I don't think they will be around in museums - an
exidy sorcerer for example - unless we preserve them. Future generations
must know that it wasn't just the Apple and IBM PC. It is this very
degeneration of view into "years ago people used apples and PC's" that is
so
wrong, given that the whole progress was possible because of VARIED systems.
Almost everyone used something different; that's what got our technology
where it is today. That's why we are a bit stagnated with the current
Windows monopoly.
To bring in another thread that's been going on on the list... I am also
very concerned that many of these systems need to be preserved NOW, rather
than later with regards to the ability to repair them. Yes, new (young)
people can be trained in basic TTL repair and troubleshooting. But I don't
see a lot of that going on, or at least, not enough to make sure that a fair
number of these machines stay running.
Long story short, I am very concerned with the trend. I wish I had answers.
Jim, I sincerely hope that you manage to at least hold onto a system or two,
and can stay active on this list. I'm sure we all empathize and wish you the
very best, as well as sincerely thank you for your past participation here.
Regards,
Jay West
3:37 p.m.
Jay West wrote:
Jim;
As I read your email a profound sadness overcomes.... I guess this hobby
(moreso, to people like us) can very easily become all-consuming both
financially and psychologically. I, and I am quite sure others on the list
definitely feel and share your pain. Several times since getting into the
hobby I have been to the point of just giving up, feeling that required
items for a particular system are simply never to be found again. Or seeing
a particular piece and not being able to swing the cash at the time. Or
putting the family through grief when I stay up till the wee hours for weeks
on end trying to get something working. Or wondering how on earth I'm going
to get a piece that I have obtained transported. Or storage once it
arrives... well, I'm sure everyone here can identify. So far, fortunately,
every time I've hit that point I've been able to overcome it - either with
unwarranted optimism or by walking away from it for a month or so.
Jerome Fine replies:
I am very much in agreement with your response. Since I originally
required real PDP-11 hardware to run the RT-11 programs, I was
also concerned with finding enough hardware at a reasonable price
to support my addiction.
For myself however, my real collection is software. Thus there
is absolutely no value there at all from hobby users. All I can do
is copy the programs to a CD and then beg people to use them.
I also understand about taking off some time and coming back to
working with the things which are so challenging. Over the two
decades that I have working with RT-11 on my own, I have made
a few enhancements that I have found extremely useful just for
my own requirements.
It royally sucks to me that many of us (probably not
me, but many here
anyways) have extremely important ranges of computing history - and that
without us, they will NOT survive from what I can see, at least as a
representative range of systems. Most museums simply don't care, or want to,
represent the whole of computing history. That is something that is so
central to our culture, the very fabric of our current daily lives. I'm not
talking about a classic "straight 8", or a DG nova - these will likely be
represented. But the entire gamut that we have (most of us) lived through -
from the DECs to the altair and apples and heathkits up to, yes... I'll say
it... modern PC's. Pick any one of them, and unless they were in the top
tier of name recognition I don't think they will be around in museums - an
exidy sorcerer for example - unless we preserve them. Future generations
must know that it wasn't just the Apple and IBM PC. It is this very
degeneration of view into "years ago people used apples and PC's" that is
so
wrong, given that the whole progress was possible because of VARIED systems.
Almost everyone used something different; that's what got our technology
where it is today. That's why we are a bit stagnated with the current
Windows monopoly.
I agree that the competition was probably useful to allow
so many different ideas to be tested. However, I suspect
that most people on the classiccmp list tend to focus almost
totally on the hardware - whereas I am of the opinion that
the software is equally important.
Note that I do agree that the hardware is essential as well,
but I don't agree when the software is only used for showing
that the hardware is working.
Indeed, in my opinion, while the marriage of the hardware
and software to produce the final result is dependent on
both parts, the software can often make up for the areas
where the hardware is deficient - at least in the short run.
And more recently, it would seen that using an emulator
to run PDP-11 instructions is no longer self-defeating,
at least from my point of view, especially after DEC
stopped further enhancement of the PDP-11. Being able
to run RT-11 on a 3.6 GHz Pentium 4 under Ersatz-11
at 75 times the speed of a real DEC PDP-11/93 is
hardly something to sneeze at. And that is just the start
of the advantage of using Ersatz-11 under Windows 98 SE
on a Pentium 4 system. Being able to have up to 12 "jobs"
running at the same time and switching from one job to
another at the touch of one keystroke on the same monitor
(which can't be done on a real DEC PDP-11) let alone
the speed of the output which is NOT restricted by a serial
line running at 19,200 baud (sometimes it is actually TOO
fast) is just another advantage.
But I digress. The key point is, as you have stated, that almost
every museum rarely have dynamic displays, let alone take
the trouble to fix bugs in old code. And enhancements are
totally out of the question. And as for saving the old versions
of the OS, well if the system is not running, who cares.
And the final problem is that the OS is never able to handle
future dates - VMS on Alpha excepted. That problem I
hope to resolve for RT-11 by making V05.03 both Y2K/Y10K
compliant - perhaps even by the end of 2003 when the DATE
value on older RT-11 distributions actually breaks. Since
V05.07 of RT-11 is now able to handle dates until 2099,
I intend to provide code which is compatible with V05.07
until 2099 after which I am hoping that changes made to
V05.03 will also be incorporated in V05.07 to allow both
versions to continue to be used for the foreseeable future.
To bring in another thread that's been going on on
the list... I am also
very concerned that many of these systems need to be preserved NOW, rather
than later with regards to the ability to repair them. Yes, new (young)
people can be trained in basic TTL repair and troubleshooting. But I don't
see a lot of that going on, or at least, not enough to make sure that a fair
number of these machines stay running.
That preservation aspect probably applies to software as well.
I am also concerned that old versions of RT-11 will be lost.
My goal is to copy as many of the old distributions of RT-11
up to V05.03 along with layered products to a CD so that
they can be used by hobby users under the Supnik emulator.
Since the code is in "C", it should be possible to continue to
use the Supnik emulator for a very long time.
Long story short, I am very concerned with the trend.
I wish I had answers.
Jim, I sincerely hope that you manage to at least hold onto a system or two,
and can stay active on this list. I'm sure we all empathize and wish you the
very best, as well as sincerely thank you for your past participation here.
Regards,
Jay West
Likewise. I know that I will also need to dispose of 95% of my PDP-11
hardware - and since no one seems to want it, probably Dan Cohoe
will end up with all of it if no one else is interested in sharing it.
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
--
If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail
address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk
e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be
obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the
'at' with the four digits of the current year.
4:13 p.m.
I agree about the software being important. I scrounge EBAY and swaplists
for complete software packages for my pc's, 68k macs, amiga's etc. this
ranges from OS, productivity, to games. Turning on an old mac with no
software to play with isn't allot of fun. My collection is from the late
80's to mid 90's mostly. Recently I purchased a complete set of Desqview/x
V1 and 2 to mess around with on the pc's I have (too expensive when new to
buy). I find very few people collect mac/pc software of the time period even
though I think it shows a big evolution in software development just like
computers of the 80' - 90's went from expensive business only equipment to
mass produced basic tools they are today. I don't think I have seen a real
copy of A/UX 2 or 3 around in years which is basically what OSX is for the
mac today but a decade older (macos on top of Unix).
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerome H. Fine" <jhfinexgs2(a)compsys.to>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 11:35 PM
Subject: Re: The final 'Garage' sale...
list
to,
rather
answers.
Jay West wrote:
> Jim;
> As I read your email a profound sadness overcomes.... I guess this hobby
> (moreso, to people like us) can very easily become all-consuming both
> financially and psychologically. I, and I am quite sure others on the > definitely feel and share your pain. Several
times since getting into
the
> hobby I have been to the point of just giving up,
feeling that required
> items for a particular system are simply never to be found again. Or
seeing
> a particular piece and not being able to swing
the cash at the time. Or
> putting the family through grief when I stay up till the wee hours for
weeks
> on end trying to get something working. Or
wondering how on earth I'm
going
> to get a piece that I have obtained transported.
Or storage once it
> arrives... well, I'm sure everyone here can identify. So far,
fortunately,
> every time I've hit that point I've been
able to overcome it - either
with
unwarranted
optimism or by walking away from it for a month or so.
Jerome Fine replies:
I am very much in agreement with your response. Since I originally
required real PDP-11 hardware to run the RT-11 programs, I was
also concerned with finding enough hardware at a reasonable price
to support my addiction.
For myself however, my real collection is software. Thus there
is absolutely no value there at all from hobby users. All I can do
is copy the programs to a CD and then beg people to use them.
I also understand about taking off some time and coming back to
working with the things which are so challenging. Over the two
decades that I have working with RT-11 on my own, I have made
a few enhancements that I have found extremely useful just for
my own requirements.
> It royally sucks to me that many of us (probably not me, but many here
> anyways) have extremely important ranges of computing history - and that
> without us, they will NOT survive from what I can see, at least as a
> representative range of systems. Most museums simply don't care, or want
> represent the whole of computing history. That is
something that is so
> central to our culture, the very fabric of our current daily lives. I'm
not
> talking about a classic "straight 8",
or a DG nova - these will likely
be
> represented. But the entire gamut that we have
(most of us) lived
through -
> from the DECs to the altair and apples and
heathkits up to, yes... I'll
say
> it... modern PC's. Pick any one of them, and
unless they were in the
top
> tier of name recognition I don't think they
will be around in museums -
an
> exidy sorcerer for example - unless we preserve
them. Future generations
> must know that it wasn't just the Apple and IBM PC. It is this very
> degeneration of view into "years ago people used apples and PC's" that
is so
> wrong, given that the whole progress was possible
because of VARIED
systems.
Almost
everyone used something different; that's what got our technology
where it is today. That's why we are a bit stagnated with the current
Windows monopoly.
I agree that the competition was probably useful to allow
so many different ideas to be tested. However, I suspect
that most people on the classiccmp list tend to focus almost
totally on the hardware - whereas I am of the opinion that
the software is equally important.
Note that I do agree that the hardware is essential as well,
but I don't agree when the software is only used for showing
that the hardware is working.
Indeed, in my opinion, while the marriage of the hardware
and software to produce the final result is dependent on
both parts, the software can often make up for the areas
where the hardware is deficient - at least in the short run.
And more recently, it would seen that using an emulator
to run PDP-11 instructions is no longer self-defeating,
at least from my point of view, especially after DEC
stopped further enhancement of the PDP-11. Being able
to run RT-11 on a 3.6 GHz Pentium 4 under Ersatz-11
at 75 times the speed of a real DEC PDP-11/93 is
hardly something to sneeze at. And that is just the start
of the advantage of using Ersatz-11 under Windows 98 SE
on a Pentium 4 system. Being able to have up to 12 "jobs"
running at the same time and switching from one job to
another at the touch of one keystroke on the same monitor
(which can't be done on a real DEC PDP-11) let alone
the speed of the output which is NOT restricted by a serial
line running at 19,200 baud (sometimes it is actually TOO
fast) is just another advantage.
But I digress. The key point is, as you have stated, that almost
every museum rarely have dynamic displays, let alone take
the trouble to fix bugs in old code. And enhancements are
totally out of the question. And as for saving the old versions
of the OS, well if the system is not running, who cares.
And the final problem is that the OS is never able to handle
future dates - VMS on Alpha excepted. That problem I
hope to resolve for RT-11 by making V05.03 both Y2K/Y10K
compliant - perhaps even by the end of 2003 when the DATE
value on older RT-11 distributions actually breaks. Since
V05.07 of RT-11 is now able to handle dates until 2099,
I intend to provide code which is compatible with V05.07
until 2099 after which I am hoping that changes made to
V05.03 will also be incorporated in V05.07 to allow both
versions to continue to be used for the foreseeable future.
> To bring in another thread that's been going on on the list... I am also
> very concerned that many of these systems need to be preserved NOW, > than later with regards to the ability to repair
them. Yes, new (young)
> people can be trained in basic TTL repair and troubleshooting. But I
don't
> see a lot of that going on, or at least, not
enough to make sure that a
fair
number of
these machines stay running.
That preservation aspect probably applies to software as well.
I am also concerned that old versions of RT-11 will be lost.
My goal is to copy as many of the old distributions of RT-11
up to V05.03 along with layered products to a CD so that
they can be used by hobby users under the Supnik emulator.
Since the code is in "C", it should be possible to continue to
use the Supnik emulator for a very long time.
> Long story short, I am very concerned with the trend. I wish I had > Jim, I sincerely hope that you manage to at least
hold onto a system or
two,
> and can stay active on this list. I'm sure we
all empathize and wish you
the
> very best, as well as sincerely thank you for
your past participation
here.
Regards,
Jay West
Likewise. I know that I will also need to dispose of 95% of my PDP-11
hardware - and since no one seems to want it, probably Dan Cohoe
will end up with all of it if no one else is interested in sharing it.
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
--
If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail
address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk
e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be
obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the
'at' with the four digits of the current year. 
6:26 p.m.
New subject: Old Software (was: Re: The final 'Garage' sale...)
I agree about the software being important. I scrounge
EBAY and swaplists
for complete software packages for my pc's, 68k macs, amiga's etc. this
ranges from OS, productivity, to games. Turning on an old mac with no
software to play with isn't allot of fun. My collection is from the late
One thing I like about Mac's is that if you take a 10 year old Mac, and load it with
software of the same age, and it can do basically anything the average user needs, with
the exception of surfing (what can I say, I don't like browsing on slow systems).
80's to mid 90's mostly. Recently I purchased a
complete set of Desqview/x
V1 and 2 to mess around with on the pc's I have (too expensive when new to
buy).
I remember seeing Desqview/X at trade shows. It was totally cool, and I really wanted a
copy at the time. Now I've got a copy, I just haven't had time to setup a system
to play with it.
mass produced basic tools they are today. I don't
think I have seen a real
copy of A/UX 2 or 3 around in years which is basically what OSX is for the
mac today but a decade older (macos on top of Unix).
My first introduction to Unix in January of '92 was A/UX (about a week later I started
playing with Linux), trust me, OS X is a far better implementation! We used the C2
version of A/UX, and the system was painful to use (all we really used were Word Perfect
1.0 and MacDraw. Finally someone figured out how to get System 7 installed, and the
system suddenly screamed!
Speaking of *old* software, I bought my first Mac in '95 (largely due to the
previously mentioned system). Several apps that I got at that time I'm still running,
though now I have to run them under classic mode. Thankfully the app I bought my first
Mac to run, ClarisDraw (formally called MacDraw), still runs under Classic, as sadly a new
version hasn't been released since I bought it :^(
Zane
--
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
29 May
29 May
3:03 a.m.
On Thu, 29 May 2003, TeoZ wrote:
[...] I find very few people collect mac/pc software
of the time
period even though I think it shows a big evolution in software
development just like computers of the 80' - 90's went from expensive
business only equipment to mass produced basic tools they are today. I
don't think I have seen a real copy of A/UX 2 or 3 around in years
which is basically what OSX is for the mac today but a decade older
(macos on top of Unix).
Nah. OS X's lineage comes /directly/ from NeXT's NEXTSTEP, which is
about 14 years old at this point. After NeXT got out of the hardware
business, NEXTSTEP begat OPENSTEP. Then Apple bought NeXT and used
their OS to create OS X. The underpinnings of OS X are blantantly
taken from NeXT's work (and I'm the happiest guy in the computing
world for it.)
One trivial example...
nextstep% file /bin/ls
/bin/ls: Mach-O executable (for architecture m68k)
os-x% file /bin/ls
/bin/ls: Mach-O executable ppc
They even share some of the same gags, like this one hidden in the magic
number they chose for Mach-O binaries:
nextstep% od -h /bin/ls | head -1
0000000 feed face 0000 0006 0000 0001 0000 0002
os-x% od -h /bin/ls | head -1
0000000 feed face 0000 0012 0000 0000 0000 0002
Even silly things under OS X like the spinning cursor wheel (which they
revamped in 10.2) and the system beep sounds are leftover from NEXTSTEP.
Then there's Cocoa, all the interface and project development tools,
netinfo, and Mach, and...
The MacOS environment provided by OS X is, for all practical purposes, a
throw-away solution meant to wean people off MacOS. Obviously Apple had
to provide this; had they not, they'd have panicked a lot of their
customers. But it's something that looks and feels like it's awkwardly
bolted onto the otherwise smooth and well integrated OS X.
NeXT really were more than a decade ahead of everyone else with their
systems. It's a shame it took so long for their vision to become both
accessible and acceptable to the masses.
-brian.
3:27 a.m.
I know mac osx came from nextstep. I was just pointing out apple tried the
macos on top of unix thing before.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Chase" <vaxzilla(a)jarai.org>
To: "Classic Computers" <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: The final 'Garage' sale...
On Thu, 29 May 2003, TeoZ wrote:
[...] I find very few people collect mac/pc
software of the time
period even though I think it shows a big evolution in software
development just like computers of the 80' - 90's went from expensive
business only equipment to mass produced basic tools they are today. I
don't think I have seen a real copy of A/UX 2 or 3 around in years
which is basically what OSX is for the mac today but a decade older
(macos on top of Unix).
Nah. OS X's lineage comes /directly/ from NeXT's NEXTSTEP, which is
about 14 years old at this point. After NeXT got out of the hardware
business, NEXTSTEP begat OPENSTEP. Then Apple bought NeXT and used
their OS to create OS X. The underpinnings of OS X are blantantly
taken from NeXT's work (and I'm the happiest guy in the computing
world for it.)
One trivial example...
nextstep% file /bin/ls
/bin/ls: Mach-O executable (for architecture m68k)
os-x% file /bin/ls
/bin/ls: Mach-O executable ppc
They even share some of the same gags, like this one hidden in the magic
number they chose for Mach-O binaries:
nextstep% od -h /bin/ls | head -1
0000000 feed face 0000 0006 0000 0001 0000 0002
os-x% od -h /bin/ls | head -1
0000000 feed face 0000 0012 0000 0000 0000 0002
Even silly things under OS X like the spinning cursor wheel (which they
revamped in 10.2) and the system beep sounds are leftover from NEXTSTEP.
Then there's Cocoa, all the interface and project development tools,
netinfo, and Mach, and...
The MacOS environment provided by OS X is, for all practical purposes, a
throw-away solution meant to wean people off MacOS. Obviously Apple had
to provide this; had they not, they'd have panicked a lot of their
customers. But it's something that looks and feels like it's awkwardly
bolted onto the otherwise smooth and well integrated OS X.
NeXT really were more than a decade ahead of everyone else with their
systems. It's a shame it took so long for their vision to become both
accessible and acceptable to the masses.
-brian.
4:10 a.m.
New subject: OSX
Hummmm last I heard... Apple's OSX was built on top of FreeBSD, not
NEXTSTEP.
Jay West
----- Original Message -----
From: "TeoZ" <teoz(a)neo.rr.com>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: The final 'Garage' sale...
I know mac osx came from nextstep. I was just pointing
out apple tried the
macos on top of unix thing before.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Chase" <vaxzilla(a)jarai.org>
To: "Classic Computers" <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: The final 'Garage' sale...
> On Thu, 29 May 2003, TeoZ wrote:
>
> > [...] I find very few people collect mac/pc software of the time
> > period even though I think it shows a big evolution in software
> > development just like computers of the 80' - 90's went from expensive
> > business only equipment to mass produced basic tools they are today. I
> > don't think I have seen a real copy of A/UX 2 or 3 around in years
> > which is basically what OSX is for the mac today but a decade older
> > (macos on top of Unix).
>
> Nah. OS X's lineage comes /directly/ from NeXT's NEXTSTEP, which is
> about 14 years old at this point. After NeXT got out of the hardware
> business, NEXTSTEP begat OPENSTEP. Then Apple bought NeXT and used
> their OS to create OS X. The underpinnings of OS X are blantantly
> taken from NeXT's work (and I'm the happiest guy in the computing
> world for it.)
>
> One trivial example...
>
> nextstep% file /bin/ls
> /bin/ls: Mach-O executable (for architecture m68k)
>
> os-x% file /bin/ls
> /bin/ls: Mach-O executable ppc
>
> They even share some of the same gags, like this one hidden in the magic
> number they chose for Mach-O binaries:
>
> nextstep% od -h /bin/ls | head -1
> 0000000 feed face 0000 0006 0000 0001 0000 0002
>
> os-x% od -h /bin/ls | head -1
> 0000000 feed face 0000 0012 0000 0000 0000
0002
>
> Even silly things under OS X like the spinning cursor wheel (which they
> revamped in 10.2) and the system beep sounds are leftover from NEXTSTEP.
> Then there's Cocoa, all the interface and project development tools,
> netinfo, and Mach, and...
>
> The MacOS environment provided by OS X is, for all practical purposes, a
> throw-away solution meant to wean people off MacOS. Obviously Apple had
> to provide this; had they not, they'd have panicked a lot of their
> customers. But it's something that looks and feels like it's awkwardly
> bolted onto the otherwise smooth and well integrated OS X.
>
> NeXT really were more than a decade ahead of everyone else with their
> systems. It's a shame it took so long for their vision to become both
> accessible and acceptable to the masses.
>
> -brian.
4:33 a.m.
New subject: OSX
Hummmm last I heard... Apple's OSX was built on
top of FreeBSD, not
NEXTSTEP.
It's NEXTStep. The userland, however, is BSD. (From the console of a dual
1.25GHz Power Mac G4 running OS X.2.6.)
--
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser(a)floodgap.com
-- You can make it illegal, but you can't make it unpopular. ------------------
4:47 a.m.
New subject: OSX
Odd.... Apple hired Jordan Hubbard (lead developer for FreeBSD) to head up
OSX development, and I was quite sure I saw an article where Jordan stated
the kernel and underlying OS was in fact FreeBSD. I'll check into this...
Jay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cameron Kaiser" <spectre(a)floodgap.com>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: OSX
http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
Hummmm last I
heard... Apple's OSX was built on top of FreeBSD, not
NEXTSTEP.
It's NEXTStep. The userland, however, is BSD. (From the console of a dual
1.25GHz Power Mac G4 running OS X.2.6.)
--
----------------------------- personal page: Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif.,
USA *
ckaiser(a)floodgap.com
-- You can make it illegal, but you can't make it
unpopular. ------------------
7:20 a.m.
New subject: OSX
On Thu, 29 May 2003, Jay West wrote:
Odd.... Apple hired Jordan Hubbard (lead developer for
FreeBSD) to
head up OSX development, and I was quite sure I saw an article where
Jordan stated the kernel and underlying OS was in fact FreeBSD. I'll
check into this...
NEXTSTEP was a effectively a NeXT customized CMU Mach microkernel with
lots of 4.3BSD mixed in with it. OS X is a revamped version of Mach
with FreeBSD (and other more modern BSDs) mixed into it. I'm sure
Jordan Hubbard was very instrumental in helping to update the OS to
benefit from FreeBSD's code, but OS X is definitely not FreeBSD at its
core. It's Mach. I mean, even the name of /kernel/ file is "mach" or
rather "/mach_kernel" under OS X.
Also, the OS X hostinfo command still reports the Mach version
information as was done on NEXTSTEP systems:
On my iMac:
% hostinfo
Mach kernel version:
Darwin Kernel Version 6.6:
Thu May 1 21:48:54 PDT 2003; root:xnu/xnu-344.34.obj~1/RELEASE_PPC
Kernel configured for up to 2 processors.
1 processor is physically available.
Processor type: ppc7450 (PowerPC 7450)
Processor active: 0
Primary memory available: 256.00 megabytes.
Default processor set: 70 tasks, 141 threads, 1 processors
Load average: 0.52, Mach factor: 0.60
On my NeXT cube:
% hostinfo
Mach kernel version:
NeXT Mach 3.3: Tue Jul 13 10:33:44 PDT 1999;
root(rcbuilder):mk-171.14.obj~22/RC_m68k/RELEASE_M68K
Kernel configured for a single processor only.
1 processor is physically available.
Processor type: MC680x0 (68040)
Processor speed: 25 MHz
Processor active: 0
System type: 2
Board revision: 0x0
Primary memory available: 64.00 megabytes.
Default processor set: 38 tasks, 66 threads, 1 processors
Load average: 0.40, Mach factor: 0.83
The information about OS X being FreeBSD with a pretty Apple GUI on top
of it tends to come from some misguided slashdotters who lack historical
perspective. That's not to slight FreeBSD's contributions, but they're
better considered as "renovation work" to what had already been in place
for a decade.
-brian.
4:37 a.m.
New subject: OSX
Jay West wrote:
Hummmm last I heard... Apple's OSX was built on top of FreeBSD, not
NEXTSTEP.
Jay West
Actually, I do believe OSX is made from bits of Next(Open)Step, Mach
kernel, NetBSD, OpenBSD and FreeBSD.. and probably some others too.
Take a look through some of the man pages in OSX. There are references
to NetBSD in some of them.
--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- ICQ# 905818
5 a.m.
New subject: OSX
David wrote...
Actually, I do believe OSX is made from bits of
Next(Open)Step, Mach
kernel, NetBSD, OpenBSD and FreeBSD.. and probably some others too.
Take a look through some of the man pages in OSX. There are references
to NetBSD in some of them.
That means nothing. There's lots of references to other BSD's and other unix
flavors in the man pages for most unices...
5:46 a.m.
New subject: OSX
Jay West wrote:
David wrote...
True, but I have seen many (can't recall where right now)
articles/comments about NetBSD stuff being used in OSX...
And considering how NetBSD, FreeBSD, and OpenBSD share & compare code
at times...
--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- ICQ# 905818
Actually, I do believe OSX is made from bits of
Next(Open)Step, Mach
kernel, NetBSD, OpenBSD and FreeBSD.. and probably some others too.
Take a look through some of the man pages in OSX. There are references
to NetBSD in some of them.
That means nothing. There's lots of references to other BSD's and other unix
flavors in the man pages for most unices... 
31 May
31 May
11:45 a.m.
New subject: OSX
Yes, but OSX contains things like lukemftpd. It definitely has other
NetBSD bits in there, but nothing I remember off the top of my head.
Peace... Sridhar
On Thu, 29 May 2003, Jay West wrote:
David wrote...
Actually, I do believe OSX is made from bits of
Next(Open)Step, Mach
kernel, NetBSD, OpenBSD and FreeBSD.. and probably some others too.
Take a look through some of the man pages in OSX. There are references
to NetBSD in some of them.
That means nothing. There's lots of references to other BSD's and other unix
flavors in the man pages for most unices...
29 May
29 May
5:09 a.m.
New subject: OSX
Hummmm last I heard... Apple's OSX was built on top
of FreeBSD, not
NEXTSTEP.
OS X at the bottom is MACH, the BSD interface has largely been updated using
FreeBSD/Darwin.
I'm not going to bother with the dates, but here is a rough timeline....
-Apple buys NeXT
-Steve Jobs takes over
-Prelude to Rhapsody released at WWDC (it's really OPENSTEP 4.2, runs on NeXT, x86,
and select HP & Sun)
-Rhapsody DR1 (or whatever it was called) release, offers true Mac OS Classic interface on
x86 hardware! Very cool!
-More Developer releases
-Aqua Interface Released (YUCK!)
-More Developer releases
-Public Beta
-10.0 Released
-Various . Upgrades
-10.1 Released as free download
-Various . Upgrades
-10.2 Released as Pay Upgrade
-Various . Upgrades and now at 10.2.6
I was really excited about Mac OS X *UNTIL* the Aqua mess. Then I got 10.0 and it
didn't support classic Appletalk servers (my OpenVMS server serves up data via classic
Appletalk), plus all my apps were Classic so I never made the switch. I tried
10.1.something and found it supported classic Appletalk servers, but I still didn't
switch.
Finally for some reason I bought 10.2 about a month and half ago, and I've been using
it since. The classic environment works really well, and I'm slowly switching the
apps I use most to be native OS X apps. Also, it now has a usable X-Windows
implementation that Apple provides. The main thing I don't like about it, is that it
seems to be a HUGE memory hog! As in I've apparently got basically all of my 756MB
physical memory full, and 4.5GB of virtual memory used! One thing I do like is that
surfing on my G4/450 using Safari is about as fast as using IE under XP on my 1.6Ghz
Pentium IV!
Zane
--
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
5:36 a.m.
New subject: OSX
Finally for some reason I bought 10.2 about a month
and half ago, and I've
been using it since. The classic environment works really well, and I'm
slowly switching the apps I use most to be native OS X apps. Also, it now
has a usable X-Windows implementation that Apple provides. The main thing
I don't like about it, is that it seems to be a HUGE memory hog!
As in I've apparently got basically all of my 756MB physical memory full,
and 4.5GB of virtual memory used! One thing I do like is that surfing on my
G4/450 using Safari is about as fast as using IE under XP on my 1.6Ghz
Pentium IV!
I like Jag a lot. I don't mind Aqua, although I think it's overkill for an
interface (it really gulps and swallows system resources -- I think the OS
X bloat is mostly from that).
My only complaint is some of my classic AppleTalk servers won't talk to it
(in particular my netatalk-based NetBSD server, ironically a Mac IIci, gets
an "unsupported AFP version" error). However, it works in the Chooser if I
fire up Classic. The worst part was to do filesharing with my Apple
Network Server, I have to use SMB!!! (runs to toilet retching)
--
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser(a)floodgap.com
-- Ergo, cogito sum! (Cogito.) ------------------------------------------------
5:50 a.m.
New subject: OSX
On 2003.05.29 18:05 Jay West wrote:
Hummmm last I heard... Apple's OSX was built on
top of FreeBSD, not
NEXTSTEP.
The NeXT Mach kernel brought a BSD Unix personality to the wedding. So
Apple took various user land tools vom *BSD to make it a "complete
Unix". (AFAIK)
--
tsch??,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/
31 May
31 May
11:45 a.m.
New subject: OSX
Nope. Not really. It's the same architecture as NeXTstep. BSD on top of
Mach. FreeBSD and NetBSD supply some of the userland.
Peace... Sridhar
On Thu, 29 May 2003, Jay West wrote:
Hummmm last I heard... Apple's OSX was built on
top of FreeBSD, not
NEXTSTEP.
Jay West
----- Original Message -----
From: "TeoZ" <teoz(a)neo.rr.com>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: The final 'Garage' sale...
I know mac osx came from nextstep. I was just
pointing out apple tried the
macos on top of unix thing before.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Chase" <vaxzilla(a)jarai.org>
To: "Classic Computers" <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: The final 'Garage' sale...
> On Thu, 29 May 2003, TeoZ wrote:
>
> > [...] I find very few people collect mac/pc software of the time
> > period even though I think it shows a big evolution in software
> > development just like computers of the 80' - 90's went from expensive
> > business only equipment to mass produced basic tools they are today. I
> > don't think I have seen a real copy of A/UX 2 or 3 around in years
> > which is basically what OSX is for the mac today but a decade older
> > (macos on top of Unix).
>
> Nah. OS X's lineage comes /directly/ from NeXT's NEXTSTEP, which is
> about 14 years old at this point. After NeXT got out of the hardware
> business, NEXTSTEP begat OPENSTEP. Then Apple bought NeXT and used
> their OS to create OS X. The underpinnings of OS X are blantantly
> taken from NeXT's work (and I'm the happiest guy in the computing
> world for it.)
>
> One trivial example...
>
> nextstep% file /bin/ls
> /bin/ls: Mach-O executable (for architecture m68k)
>
> os-x% file /bin/ls
> /bin/ls: Mach-O executable ppc
>
> They even share some of the same gags, like this one hidden in the magic
> number they chose for Mach-O binaries:
>
> nextstep% od -h /bin/ls | head -1
> 0000000 feed face 0000 0006 0000 0001 0000 0002
>
> os-x% od -h /bin/ls | head -1
> 0000000 feed face 0000 0012 0000 0000 0000
0002
> >
> > Even silly things under OS X like the spinning cursor wheel (which they
> > revamped in 10.2) and the system beep sounds are leftover from NEXTSTEP.
> > Then there's Cocoa, all the interface and project development tools,
> > netinfo, and Mach, and...
> >
> > The MacOS environment provided by OS X is, for all practical purposes, a
> > throw-away solution meant to wean people off MacOS. Obviously Apple had
> > to provide this; had they not, they'd have panicked a lot of their
> > customers. But it's something that looks and feels like it's
awkwardly
> > bolted onto the otherwise smooth and well integrated OS X.
> >
> > NeXT really were more than a decade ahead of everyone else with their
> > systems. It's a shame it took so long for their vision to become both
> > accessible and acceptable to the masses.
> >
> > -brian.
29 May
29 May
7:42 a.m.
Update: the initial catalog page is now online.
Expect frequent updates as I sort thru the shelves...
-jim
---
jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
8:39 a.m.
Re: http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw/
You might want to consider actually writing that letter to Bill Gates
that you propose on the website. If you actually Did offer him a
personal service at a cost to you some time back that he accepted
then you have an advantage that 99.999% of Americans do not, and
its worth an hour and a 37cent stamp to try a request.
just my $.02
John A.
I do not believe in a fate that falls on men however they act;
but I do believe in a fate that falls on them unless they act.
-- Gilbert Keith Chesterton (1874-1936)
3:55 a.m.
I always feel very melancholy whenever I hear of someone leaving the hobby
and giving up their prized systems, especially when I consider how much time
and effort it took to build those collections. The money factor aside, it's
a hobby fueled by pleasure and fun, and it's sad to hear that someone has to
give that up.
I can't predict what emotions Jim will feel once he finishes finding new
homes for his computers but I sincerely hope that in the end, he'll feel
that it wasn't had painful as he thought it might be. I know that I
personally felt wonderfully unburdened after I got rid of most of my old
computer collection, but then again, I didn't have anything extremely rare
or difficult to replace if I ever decided that wanted one again.
Jim, I hope that by the end of the year, you've successfully found new homes
for your collection and that things will start to to be better in your
personal life. In the mean time, just hang in there don't forget that you
have a family that cares about you.
E.
7827
days inactive
7830
days old
25 comments
13 participants
participants (13)
-
allain＠panix.com -
dwoyciesjes＠comcast.net -
ernestls＠attbi.com -
gkicomputers＠yahoo.com -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
jhfinexgs2＠compsys.to -
jimw＠agora.rdrop.com -
jkunz＠unixag-kl.fh-kl.de -
jwest＠classiccmp.org -
spectre＠floodgap.com -
teoz＠neo.rr.com -
vance＠neurotica.com -
vaxzilla＠jarai.org