22 Oct
1998
22 Oct
'98
8:54 a.m.
You guys are really raining on my parade....
Sorry, but most is just physics.
I have looked at Z180's, Z380's and etc....
They are SLOW!!!!!! The
only availabe packaging for the Z380 is un-useable to me as a hobbist
(without a lot of headache.)
Anything you need is a socket adaptor.
So, If some company would take the Z-bus (but with an
(input/output) data
size set of bus control lines), Z-80 instruction set and match a DEC Alpha
performance (at a cheap price of-course), I would worship that company.
(Oh yes, I want a 64bit data bus and a 128bit address bus). Is this asking
for too much? Why can't we all just get along?
Why not just take an Alpha if you want Alpha features ?
And now tell me where you need 128 Bit address ? Just in
case, even to fill a 64 Bit memory you need 4 GIG of
mem thats just 4 grand ... and 128 Bit memory used ...
oh unly 16,000,000,000,000 Dollar ... gee rich man
Since this is a dream:
Just listen to Allison, she (now I know) already
pointed it out: physics.
My thoughts are this: If I can find some REALLY
SIMPLE mirco-controllers
that do just the basic microprocessor functions,
Lets just assume you need only 4 cycles on your
micro-controller to do the equivalent of an Z80
cycle (after all they are software controlled).
this means a 400 MHz micro controller equals
a 100 MHz Z80 with an sustaind rate of around
25 MIPS - thats just double to tripple the rate
of an Z180 - not a big deal - and anything faster
would require Memory with less than 10 nS access
access time - and if you remember SDRAM design,
there are some quirks to resolve - your simple
Bus concept is dead.
And speaking of timing - at 1GHz, a signal
traveles less than 30 cm (or less than one
foot if you like the ancient way). If you take
just 500 MHz and lets say 1.4 ns of switching
time, wireing at hobist level is impossible.
just forget it - these speeds are only possible
inside of chips - gee even chip designers have
problem with the path inside the chip, and you
want rant about using special socets ?
I can parallel them to make them read-in and intrepret
Z-80 code.
Paralell them - interleaved (pipelined) or even
out of order execution ? Have you ever been involved ?
O3 is the crudest thig one could imagine - you need
5 to 15 times the logic of the active components (ALU
etc.) just to coordinate the concurent components.
I cannot see why massively populated microprocessors
(like the PPC, Intel,
and DEC Alpha) can reach clock speeds of 600 Mcyc and a really simple (one
accumulator, bare instruction set) microcontroller can't exceed those speeds!
Because they are ONE pice of silicon ?
If I got some of these micro-controllers and had two
or three of them
reading in instructions ahead of execution (looking for branches) I could
do half of the job and speed up the through-put.
What about taking an extreme simple CPU and try to think
again on a simplified base - I would suggest the 1802 -
one of the simpelest designs - less than 300 gate function
as I remember. No complex math just addition no fancy
OPs just minimal needs. And now try to think about
O3 and parallel concepts at this simple base.
Then use several more u-controllers acting in parallel
to actually do the
instruction execution.
See above.
For math, a bunch of stinking fast memory locations
acting as look-up tables.
A one cycle ALU is still faster - and when using 64 or
128 bit math you need more ROM than available on earth.
Any ideas?
Using hyperspace ?
Gruss
H.
PS.: pleas notice, I got it on topic (1802) <g>
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
22 Oct
22 Oct
10:11 a.m.
Arfon Gryffydd <ArfonRG(a)DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net> wrote:
(Oh yes, I want a 64bit data bus and a 128bit address
bus). Is this asking
for too much? Why can't we all just get along?
"Hans Franke" <franke(a)sbs.de> replied:
Why not just take an Alpha if you want Alpha features
?
And now tell me where you need 128 Bit address ? Just in
case, even to fill a 64 Bit memory you need 4 GIG of
mem thats just 4 grand ... and 128 Bit memory used ...
oh unly 16,000,000,000,000 Dollar ... gee rich man
Actually, it takes 4G of RAM to fill a 32-bit address space. A 64-bit
address space will require 4 billion times that much, or approximately
1.8x10^19 bytes of memory. Enough memory to fill a 128-bit address space
would be approximately 3.4x10^38. Making this much memory using current
technology would require more raw material than available in the solar
system. If you had bulk transmutation of elements you might be able to
do it.
I think what he really meant was that he wanted a 128-bit data bus and a
64-bit address bus. This would be much more useful in general, though
not too useful on a Z-80.
Hans writes:
Why not just take an Alpha if you want Alpha features
?
That was exactly what I thought when I saw Arfon's posting.
Might as well wish for a 12-cylinder engine and dual carbs for a lawnmower;
it would be more practical.
10:32 a.m.
Hans writes:
I want a Z-80's features with an Alpha's performance...
Arfon
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build
bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce
bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." -- Rich Cook
Why not just take an Alpha if you want Alpha
features ?
That was exactly what I thought when I saw Arfon's posting. 
1:14 p.m.
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2:21 p.m.
Okay, here's another hair-brained project that I am working on.....
I am trying to basically build a 64Bit Z-80 on a board. What I am
looking for is: Anyone know of any chips that are EXTREMELY simple
micro-controllers but, work at EXTREMELY high clock rates??? I wanna put
The first problem :
Very few microcontrollers or microprocessors can be cascaded to increase
the number of bits. There are synchronisation problems, flag problems
(Stick 2 8 bit chips together, you end up with 2 carry flags, neither of
them the true carry flag, and each one only testable by one of the
processors), etc. a few on a
board with some memory and made a 64-bit Z-80. I'd like the
processor to operate at 300Mcyc (or faster) clock speeds so, I figure I
need micro-controllers that operate at about 900 Mcyc to do the work.
Surely you jest. 100MHz is possible on a homebrew (Double-sided +
wirewrap board). Anything higher is a pain. 900MHz is not the sort of
thing _I'd_ homebrew without a lot of thought. That's apart from the fact that I've never seen
a microcontroller that
runs at anything like that speed. 20MHz, sure. 50MHz, maybe.
I cannot believe that there can be so many extremely complex processors out
there running up to 667Mcyc (Alpha) and there not be any simple controllers
with far less transistor counts that match or exceed those speeds.
There is no way we can get 600Mcyc clock speeds out of a 10,000,000
transistor chip but can't get at least that out of a 100,000 transistor
chip.
I want a
Z-80's features with an Alpha's performance...
Well, conmsidering that by going to 64 bits you have changed the
instruction set somewhat, and by going to the bus speed you want you have
made it difficult to link memory/peripherals to it (unlike the simple-ish
Z80 bus), just which of the Z80 features are you thinking of retaining
that are _not_ available on the Alpha?
2:32 p.m.
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3:08 p.m.
Where are you storing Register A and B? If inside a
controller, then
only that controller has access to them, if you're using ECL latches then
you're going to have to make virtually the entire data path outside the
microcontrollers
DING DING DING!!!!! Give that man a cupie doll!!!
My concept:
______ ___ ______ ___ ______ ___
| u |=| |=| u |=| |=| |=| |=
| - |=| m|=| - |=| m|=| |=| |=
| c |=| e|=| c |=| e|=| |=| |=
| o |=| m|=| o |=| m|=| |=| |=
| n |=| |=| n |=| |=| |=| |=
|______| =|__|=|______|=|__| =|_____ |=|__|=
etc...
Actually, for prototyping wire-wrap is a lot faster to
do, and it'll
clock faster as well. It's much easier to get a good ground plane on a
wire-wrapped board than a double-sided PCB
I know that Track get very touchy at 900Mcyc speeds but, I also knew that
it was near impossible for me to find something like what I wanted at those
speeds.... Plus, Half the fun of building stuff is learning what will and
will not work and then MAKING IT WORK!!! (Pass the hammer please)
A little laser-printer transfer plastic and an
exacto-knife.
You do realise that to get anything like the clock rates you want (or
even a tenth of them) you have to treat the tracks as striplines. This
means the width of the PCB track is critical. Toner transfer may not be
good enough. As for the
Z-80 vs Alpha features.... I like:
1) I/O ports. I hate the memory map stuff. (yes, I know it is the way
things are done now)
0000H - A100H System
A200H - C200H Video
DA00H - DAFFH IDE HD 1
That sucks (in my opinion). (You like my 16bit addressing? kinda make you
Why? The idea of having one set of instructions to access both memory and
I/O is actually very nice. Of course having an MMU so you can map out the
I/O and have an entire address space of RAM if you want it makes things
even nicer. Your response:
"But, what if you need to transfer a big block of data like
a NIC? You really need to memory map that."
My answer: "Pretend that the IO addresses are memory. With a 128 bit
address bus, you'll never run out of spaces!"
So what you really want is an I/O page and an addressing mode (a bit like
Direct Page on the 6809) that accesses the I/O ports. And also allows
them to be accessed by normal memory reference instructions.
3:11 p.m.
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3:16 p.m.
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4:48 p.m.
Arfon Gryffydd wrote:
BTW, I used to prototype boards used in the gigahertz region, and at least
for the stuff I made, glass/teflon material was used. I don't know the
current price, but a few years ago, it was running upwards of $100 per
square foot. Then comes the processing. Yes, you can learn how to make
such circuit boards but you would most likely spend upwards of $1000 just
for chemistry to get started (and that amount would be considered impossible
by some people.) Then controlling the process to maintain trace widths to
.0001" or so *of the desired trace width* gets to be fun. Or just spend the
$1000 or so plus the hundred dollars or so to get the film made. BTW, did I
forget to say it costs a fair amount of money to deal with *just* the
circuit boards :)?
You do realise that to get anything like the clock
rates you want (or
even a tenth of them) you have to treat the tracks as striplines. This
means the width of the PCB track is critical. Toner transfer may not be
good enough.
I know that Track get very touchy at 900Mcyc speeds but, I also knew that
it was near impossible for me to find something like what I wanted at those
speeds.... Plus, Half the fun of building stuff is learning what will and
will not work and then MAKING IT WORK!!! (Pass the hammer please) 
23 Oct
23 Oct
12:18 a.m.
Arfon Gryffydd wrote:
Note: on the Model II (TRS-80) there was an option to
use page the memory
so you could get more than 64K in the thing.... If I remember, it used a
Z-80 I/O address as the pager.
To the best of my recollection, the only serious memory paging that
Tandy ever did with the Model II series was the 16k (each) in the
Arcnet and hard disk boards and the 32k in the graphics board. Some
other vendors went further with it, but as a Tandy customer support
rep, I never saw them in person. The Model 4 was a different story.
Damnit! I want a 64bit Model II !!!!!!!! (Running and
500Gcyc of-course).
With 8" Laser-Optical drives... and OH OH!!! I want a Thomas-Conrad
100Mbps Fiber ARCnet to connect it to my Linux machines!!!!
Won't do you any good unless you also build (and program) the
custom Arcnet cards, since Model II Arcnet spoke only to Model II
Arcnet, even though the hardware and connection layers were
compatible with Datapoint and (later on) PC Arcnet systems.
I installed and supported Model II Arcnet, later on I installed
Vianet based on Arcnet hardware for PCs. The wires and hubs and
signals were the same, but the machines talked different languages.
--
Ward Griffiths <mailto:gram@cnct.com> <http://www.cnct.com/home/gram/>
WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.
6:33 a.m.
New subject: New Thread... TRS-80 Model IIs!!!!
Note: on the
Model II (TRS-80) there was an option to use page the memory
so you could get more than 64K in the thing.... If I remember, it used a
Z-80 I/O address as the pager.
To the best of my recollection, the only serious memory paging that Tandy ever did with the Model II series was the 16k
(each) in the
Arcnet and hard disk boards and the 32k in the graphics board. Some
other vendors went further with it, but as a Tandy customer support
rep, I never saw them in person. The Model 4 was a different story.
No seriously, the Model II can page (I think it was the upper) 32K of
memory IF you had extra memory cards. This feature is built in.
Damnit! I
want a 64bit Model II !!!!!!!! (Running and 500Gcyc of-course).
With 8" Laser-Optical drives... and OH OH!!! I want a Thomas-Conrad
100Mbps Fiber ARCnet to connect it to my Linux machines!!!!
Won't do you any good unless you also build (and program) the
custom Arcnet cards, since Model II Arcnet spoke only to Model II
Arcnet, even though the hardware and connection layers were
compatible with Datapoint and (later on) PC Arcnet systems.
I installed and supported Model II Arcnet, later on I installed
Vianet based on Arcnet hardware for PCs. The wires and hubs and
signals were the same, but the machines talked different languages. 
26 Oct
26 Oct
12:09 p.m.
New subject: New Thread... TRS-80 Model IIs!!!!
On 23 Oct 98 at 10:33, Arfon Gryffydd wrote:
First:
I have a bunch of Model II software! Problem is I am not sure how much is
any good.... Anyone know how to read the data off of the disc and
preserve the programs???? Anyone have any clue as to how to make a 3.5"
floppy replace an 8"???
I have the TECHNICAL MANUALs for the Model II. As soon as I can dig them
out, I want to scan them and put them on the net in PDF format.... Anyone
interested???
Ooo yes , please !! I almost missed this with all the s/n ratio going on.
There's almost no documentation available out there on the model II much
less programs. By the sounds of it you don't have one. Yes it is possible to
transfer it to 5 1/4 according to others I have been in contact with. TMK
Tim Mann is working on an emulator. One of the things on my plate is to
transfer my programs to a newer media, to conserve them. I'll let you know
how this progresses. There was also a thread on this very thing recently on
comp.sys.tandy.
Kees Stravers has a nice web page at
http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/modelii.html
Note: on the Model II (TRS-80) there was an option to
use page the memory
so you could get more than 64K in the thing.... If I remember, it used a
Z-80 I/O address as the pager.
To the best of my recollection, the only serious memory paging that Now on to my replies:
I wanna build my own ARCnet cards which is why I asked "does anyone have
the spec.s (electrical and data format) for ARCnet?"
I have called Datapoint and they are useless. I have contacted the ARCnet
Trade Association and they want lotsa $$$$ for copies of the RFC. Why
would I spend $100.00 for an RFC when I am just a hobbyist?
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build
bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce
bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." -- Rich Cook
ciao larry
lwalker(a)interlog.com
Tandy ever did with the Model II series was the
16k (each) in the
Arcnet and hard disk boards and the 32k in the graphics board. Some
other vendors went further with it, but as a Tandy customer support
rep, I never saw them in person. The Model 4 was a different story.
No seriously, the Model II can page (I think it was the upper) 32K of
memory IF you had extra memory cards. This feature is built in.
Damnit!
I want a 64bit Model II !!!!!!!! (Running and 500Gcyc of-course).
With 8" Laser-Optical drives... and OH OH!!! I want a Thomas-Conrad
100Mbps Fiber ARCnet to connect it to my Linux machines!!!!
Won't do you any good unless you also build (and program) the
custom Arcnet cards, since Model II Arcnet spoke only to Model II
Arcnet, even though the hardware and connection layers were
compatible with Datapoint and (later on) PC Arcnet systems.
I installed and supported Model II Arcnet, later on I installed
Vianet based on Arcnet hardware for PCs. The wires and hubs and
signals were the same, but the machines talked different languages.
27 Oct
27 Oct
4:03 a.m.
New subject: TRS-80 Model II stuff!
Okay,
For anyone interested (Larry).... I am going home (to Virginia) for
thanksgiving and I will pull out one of my model IIs and get all of the
still useable software and manuals. I will make copies available to
anyone who wants if someone can tell me how to copy the 8" discs to a file
on a PC (either using Linux or Dos).
I can serial port the machines togethet but, I have no idea how to read
off all the sectors of the 8 inches.
Arfon
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build
bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce
bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." -- Rich Cook
7:31 a.m.
New subject: TRS-80 Model II stuff!
Arfon Gryffydd wrote:
Okay,
For anyone interested (Larry).... I am going home (to Virginia) for
thanksgiving and I will pull out one of my model IIs and get all of the
still useable software and manuals. I will make copies available to
anyone who wants if someone can tell me how to copy the 8" discs to a file
on a PC (either using Linux or Dos).
I can serial port the machines togethet but, I have no idea how to read
off all the sectors of the 8 inches.
A Model II is set up for 256-byte sectors, a "straight" copy may not
be the optimum solution -- a few interim steps may be necessary. I
have a Model II (and expansion drives -- no HD aside from the one in
the Tandy 6000 which I won't risk) but the guy who was setting it out
at the curb had already dumped all software. So I need some bootable
OS disks (these are _any_ Tandy applications -- they were _all_
bootable, though Scripsit was short several utilities to make more
room for the document file). It might take me an hour or two of
self hypnosis, but I used to be able to do sector copies of Model II
disks from BASIC to move the salvageable bits to another disk or to
files of various formats on other disks. With a few of my Linux
tools, I may even be able to make images on modern media, though I'm
unclear as to how to translate 77-track x 34 (256byte) sector media
to 80-track x 18 (512byte) sector media. I know it will fit fine --
whether it can be used directly if an adapter is made to connect the
new drives to the old hardware I don't know -- and track 0 was single
density IIRC, the boot ROM might be sticky.
I really wish I had my old collection of Model II media -- I never
realized that small loss in moving cross-country would hurt so much
years later.
By the way Arfon, how many generations back do we have to go to find
out where our family names diverged in Wales?
--
Ward Griffiths <mailto:gram@cnct.com> <http://www.cnct.com/home/gram/>
WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.
7:29 a.m.
New subject: TRS-80 Model II stuff! (And Welsh stuff for Ward)
Ward Griffiths wrote:
Blah blah blah...
So I need some bootable
OS disks (these are _any_ Tandy applications -- they were _all_
bootable, though Scripsit was short several utilities to make more
room for the document file).
I have multiple copies of Model II system discs... Problem is "are they
still any good"? I'll make you any copies of my software that you want if
any of it is still good (can you spare any 8" discs?). I'm guessing that
it's mostly trashed now. sigh.
By the way Arfon, how many generations back do we have
to go to find
out where our family names diverged in Wales?
Ward,
You surprised me with your catch that our names are the same. Most people
of Welsh descent don't know that they are Welsh and wouldn't know that our
names are the same.
Unfortunately, we are most likely not related because the Surname concept
was introduced into britain by the Norman French. Up until late in the
Britain's history, the Celtic peoples were still using "Name son of Name"
so Gryffydd (Griffith/Griffiths/Gryffith/Gryffyth), Evans, Howell, & etc.
were all 'first' names. (Note: in Welsh, "Son Of" is "Ap" so
I would be
Arfon Ap Arfon).
I can tell you this, half of my Welsh families comes from the
Caernarfon/Bangor area and the other half comes from Southern Wales.
Arfon
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build
bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce
bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." -- Rich Cook
4:07 a.m.
New subject: Help with an Amiga...
Hey, I picked up an old Amiga 1000 yesterday without a keyboard, mouse or
monitor.
Can anyone point me to an Amiga 1000, 2000 or 3000 source or technical
information on these keyboards so I can wire one up myself.
Any information on useable monitors or mice?
Arfon
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build
bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce
bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." -- Rich Cook
2:12 a.m.
New subject: Help with an Amiga...
On 27 Oct 98 at 9:07, Arfon Gryffydd wrote:
Hey, I picked up an old Amiga 1000 yesterday without a
keyboard, mouse or
monitor.
Can anyone point me to an Amiga 1000, 2000 or 3000 source or technical
information on these keyboards so I can wire one up myself.
Any information on useable monitors or mice?
Arfon
A lot of info is available. There's a FAQ posted regularly on
comp.sys.amiga.introduction. Also plug into the Aminet.
ciao larry
lwalker(a)interlog.com
4:07 a.m.
New subject: Help with an Amiga...
At 09:07 AM 10/27/98 -0600, Arfon Gryffydd wrote:
Hey, I picked up an old Amiga 1000 yesterday without a
keyboard, mouse or
monitor.
Can anyone point me to an Amiga 1000, 2000 or 3000 source or technical
information on these keyboards so I can wire one up myself.
Any information on useable monitors or mice?
Did you try searching the net? There must be ten thousand Amiga die-hard
sites. Or try Dejanews. What is this, an oracle?
Amiga keyboards were proprietary, so your best bet would be to find
another Amiga keyboard. The mice were compatible with Sun three-button
mice, I think. Monitors were analog RGB, and the A1000 has a composite
output, too.
- John
4:42 a.m.
New subject: Help with an Amiga...
Amiga keyboards were proprietary, so your best bet
would
be to find
another Amiga keyboard. The mice were compatible with
Sun three-button
mice, I think. Monitors were analog RGB, and the A1000 has a composite
output, too.
It's possible to get adaptors to allow connection of cheap
PC keyboards. These retail for about £20 (I'm not sure
about the US price). One of the best that I have heard of
is the AteoICP. I don't know which country you are in so
I've included a list of all of the dealers from the Ateo
webpage. You can also find installation instructions at
http://www.ateo-concepts.com/eicp.html
Real Amiga keyboards retail for about £40-50 so it is up to
you if you want to spend this type of money.
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13001 MARSEILLE
Tél : +33 (0)4.91.50.22.55
Fax : +33 (0)4.91.50.24.23
VAV Video
165, Rue de Breteuil
13006 MARSEILLE
Tél : +33 (0)4.91.53.10.10
Fax : +33 (0)4.91.53.54.34
W.G. Computers
Via Sanzio 128
50053 Empoli
Tél: +39 571 711 512
Fax: +39 571 530 635
Dedem Automatica Srl
Ariccia
Via Cancelliera 59
00040 CECCHINA
Tél: +39 693 0261
Fax : +39 693 0262 01
AG Computer
Via Plebis Rea
25 A/B
92100 - AGRIENTO
Phone/Tél: +39 922 21954
Fax: +39 922 27805
Bruce Abbott
Web: www.hawkesbay.com/hcw/
GJERDE TELE DATA
Knappskog
5353 - STRAUME
Tél: +47 56 33 23 93
Fax: +47 56 33 28 88
email: oygj(a)haukeland.no
COMPUTER CITY
Zebrastraat 7-9
3064 LR ROTTERDAM
Tél: +31 10 451 7722
Fax: +31 10 451 7748
email: info(a)compcity.nl
web: www.compcity.nl
AK DATA
Wallgrensgata 10
54144 Skövde
Tél: +46 500 459 808
Fax: +46 500 459 809
email: c95johnwi(a)dormnet.his.se
web: www.akdata.just.nu
RELEC
Village du Levant
CH 1530 PAYERNE
Tél : +26 660 02 82
Fax : +26 660 02 83
Email : relec(a)com.mcnet.ch
Web : http://www.relec.ch/relec
MEGAViZYON
Haldun Taner Sok.
4, Kent Bloklari A-7
Merter
34010 Istanbul
Tél: +90 212 6413319
Fax: +90 212 6411799
web: http://www.megavizyon.com
4:20 a.m.
New subject: Joyboard
In 1983 the original Amiga Inc company (formerly known as
Hi-Toro) launched a joyboard for the Atari 2600. It was
similar to many of the arcade games such as WaveRider that
exist today as you placed your whole body on it. Does
anyone have one of these? I'm looking for some scans and
technical information of one actually in operation. Any
help would be appreciated.
Regards,
Gareth Knight
Amiga Interactive Guide
http://welcome.to/aig
6:25 p.m.
New subject: Joyboard
Date sent: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 15:20:33 +0000 (GMT)
Send reply to: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
From: "KNIGHT G.A" <kh240463(a)cr10m.staffs.ac.uk>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Joyboard
In 1983 the original Amiga Inc company (formerly known
as
Hi-Toro) launched a joyboard for the Atari 2600. It was
similar to many of the arcade games such as WaveRider that
exist today as you placed your whole body on it. Does
anyone have one of these? I'm looking for some scans and
technical information of one actually in operation. Any
help would be appreciated.
Regards,
Gareth Knight
Amiga Interactive Guide
http://welcome.to/aig
And this, according to RJ Mical, was the origin of the "Guru Meditation"
warnings the Amiga OS gave when you'd done something supremely stupid.
The Hi-Toro guys had developed a game to use with the joyboard called "Guru
Meditation" or something similar that required you to concentrate and balance
perfectly level and centered on the board in order to win.
Paul Braun
NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you.
nerdware(a)laidbak.com
www.laidbak.com/nerdware
6:44 p.m.
New subject: Joyboard
On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, KNIGHT G.A wrote:
In 1983 the original Amiga Inc company (formerly known
as
Hi-Toro) launched a joyboard for the Atari 2600. It was
similar to many of the arcade games such as WaveRider that
exist today as you placed your whole body on it. Does
anyone have one of these?
I have one, sent to me during the Ice Storm from sunny California by
another member of this list.
I'm looking for some scans and technical
information of one actually
in operation. Any help would be appreciated.
I've got a few photos on my web page, but none of it being used. Maybe I
should find a pretty model to stand on it? :)
Regards,
Gareth Knight
Amiga Interactive Guide
http://welcome.to/aig
--
Doug Spence
ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca
http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/
6:05 a.m.
New subject: Help with an Amiga...
---> Begin Website Plug <--
I have a bunch of Amiga 1000 pinouts on my brand-new, "classiccmp
friendly" info site: http://www.prinsol.com/classiccmp/. Just browse
through the pinouts directory and you should find what you need.
** I posted the URL a couple of weeks ago as just www.prinsol.com/pinouts/
- but I wanted to add other types of hardware interface materials
(conversions/hacks/etc) so I reorganised a bit. Sorry for any
inconvenience...
---> End Website Plug <---
Also, some files you will want to take a peek at are in the "hacks"
directory there...I have been working on the site and haven't gotten to
this part yet, but I dug out the Amiga-related ones for you and posted
them. It includes the AT keyboard hack, the PC serial mouse hack, and the
Amiga RGB to PC VGA hack.
Let me know if any of this is helpful!
Aaron
On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Arfon Gryffydd wrote:
Hey, I picked up an old Amiga 1000 yesterday without a
keyboard, mouse or
monitor.
Can anyone point me to an Amiga 1000, 2000 or 3000 source or technical
information on these keyboards so I can wire one up myself.
Any information on useable monitors or mice?
10:04 a.m.
New subject: Help with an Amiga...
At 09:07 AM 10/27/98 -0600, you wrote:
Hey, I picked up an old Amiga 1000 yesterday without a
keyboard, mouse or
monitor.
Can anyone point me to an Amiga 1000, 2000 or 3000 source or technical
information on these keyboards so I can wire one up myself.
http://www.voicenet.com/~generic/amiga4.html
gene@ehrich
http://www.voicenet.com/~generic
Computer & Video Game Garage Sale
10:07 a.m.
New subject: Help with an Amiga...
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23 Oct
23 Oct
6:44 a.m.
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 00:32:20 +0100 (BST)
Reply-to: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
From: ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)
WIRE_WRAP!?!?!?! ICK! I usually pull out my cheapo PCB CAD program......
Actually, for prototyping wire-wrap is a lot faster to do, and it'll
clock faster as well. It's much easier to get a good ground plane on a
wire-wrapped board than a double-sided PCB So what you really want is an I/O page and an
addressing mode (a bit like
Direct Page on the 6809) that accesses the I/O ports. And also allows
them to be accessed by normal memory reference instructions.
Have data transfers done with DMA, all memory mapped and irq driven
to knock subCPU as needed to grab data then place it in CPU's lap.
Leave CPU alone for processing. How about that?
-tony
Jason D.
email: jpero(a)cgocable.net
Pero, Jason D.
3:30 p.m.
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2:11 p.m.
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 01:30:33 +0100 (BST)
Reply-to: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
From: ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)
Wire
wrap?...hmmm I have problems with that in ohmic losses even the
connections is good, soldering them helped a bit but no dice.
Well, I didn't use wire-wrap for the power or (especially) ground
connections. I also soldered the decoupling caps between the power pins
on the socket. I have _never_ seen resistive losses on a signal
connection. And I've never had trouble with resistive losses in wire-wrap. Have data transfers done with DMA, all memory
mapped and irq driven
to knock subCPU as needed to grab data then place it in CPU's lap.
Leave CPU alone for processing. How about that?
Fine for data transfer, but having some I/O ports to send commands to
peripherals, set the base address for DMA transfers, etc is surely
sensible for most machines.
-tony
email: jpero(a)cgocable.net
Pero, Jason D.
12:48 p.m.
At 07:11 PM 10/22/98 +0000, Eric Smith wrote:
... Enough memory to fill a 128-bit address space
would be approximately 3.4x10^38. Making this much memory using current
technology would require more raw material than available in the solar
system.
So what number were you using for the "raw material in the solar system?"
And what manufacturing technology? Avogadro's Number is 6.02x10^23, a mole
of carbon is only 12g. Using electron spin to store a bit as is being done
today in quantum computers requires only 12.5 billon tons of carbon to
store all of this information. That wouldn't even use up all of Mercury,
much less the solar system.
--Chuck
12:51 p.m.
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2:47 p.m.
So what number were you using for the "raw
material in the solar system?"
And what manufacturing technology? Avogadro's Number is 6.02x10^23, a mole
of carbon is only 12g. Using electron spin to store a bit as is being done
today in quantum computers requires only 12.5 billon tons of carbon to
store all of this information. That wouldn't even use up all of Mercury,
much less the solar system.
I was using a rough estimate of the amount of silicon available in the solar
system, assuming that sufficient materials for dopants, oxide, metalization,
passivation, lead frames, bond wires, encapsulation, etc. were available as
well (probably not a valid assumption).
Quantum memory is not yet more than a laboratory curiousity. Even when it
becomes practical to store a bit using electron spin, it will still take
a large number of additional atoms to allow means of reading and writing the
bit.
I specifically said "Making this much memory using current technology..."
by which I meant 64 or 256 megabit silicon semiconductor DRAMs.
10.14x10^30 256 megabit DRAMs would be required.
One 256 megabit DRAM die currently uses about 3000 mm^3 of silicon, for a mass
of approximately 7 grams. So the total necessary mass of silicon would
be about 71x10^27 kg.
Approximately six times as much mass is used for the other materials that
comprise a packaged DRAM, so another 426x10^27 kg of appropriate materials
would be needed.
The mass of the solar system is somewhat more than 2x10^30 kg. However,
unless the gas giant planets have a higher than predicted silicon content,
the system contains less than 10^26 kg of silicon.
9405
days inactive
9410
days old
32 comments
16 participants
participants (16)
-
aaron＠wfi-inc.com -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
ArfonRG＠DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net -
ckaiser＠oa.ptloma.edu -
cmcmanis＠freegate.com -
ds_spenc＠alcor.concordia.ca -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
franke＠sbs.de -
gene＠ehrich.com -
gram＠cnct.com -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
jpero＠pop.cgocable.net -
kh240463＠cr10m.staffs.ac.uk -
lwalker＠mail.interlog.com -
marvin＠rain.org -
nerdware＠laidbak.com