10 Jul
1997
10 Jul
'97
8:17 a.m.
Enrico,
You're absolutely, terribly correct. In our benighted shortsightedness
we have been ignoring the core, the soul, nay, the very existentialism
of the historical man-machine interface and the personal hygiene of Gary
Kildall. These bits of metal and plastic have become a zen-like cyborg
interface which has allowed us to ignore the realities of our Jungian
existance. Those among us who have perused and then obviously ignored
the message of the volume of our times, Gibson & Sterling's _The
Difference Engine_, and shall surely rotate on the firey rotissery of
Dante's twenty-ninth buglia of the pit, which of course is reserved for
those who have committed the terrible sin of coveting thy neighbor's
Imsai. How can we claim to discuss the so-called 'collecting' of
so-called 'classic' computers when our hypocritical censorious
self-righteousness has made us purblind to the fact that 'collect' also
purtains to a short prayer comprising an invocation, petition, and
conclusion! And 'classic' from the Roman 'classicus' identifies us as
citizens of the first rank, who should know better! What this obviously
boils down to is the age old conflict of materiality and the health of
the soul cleaved by the sword of societal amiguity. In an awful orgy of
idolitry we have in a very real and illusive sense integrated these
actual bits of, as you put it, metal and plastic into our flesh itself,
becoming no more than Waldos while Charles Babbage's heart is ripped
from his chest by ravens dark as toner, eight claws
upon each talon.
Kai
----------
From: e.tedeschi
Reply To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 1997 1:07 AM
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject: Re: farewell
Bill Whitson wrote:
from
Hi Jim.
> I agreed with the new rules until the bit where nobody can say
they
disagree.
> That, and I really don't have time to
read the volume coming from
this list.
> Farewell all, then. If you have questions
about apple2 GSs or
Tiger Learning
Computers, please feel free to e-mail me personally
Sorry you feel this way. The point wasn't really to prevent you disagreeing - it was to prevent a flood of
responses which might
have
bogged down the list for days. The whole idea of
the new rules was
to
curb the absolute flood of unsubs that have
resulted for the most
part
due to the constant bickering. We dropped from
over 220 members to
160
over the last month. I'm sorry to see you
go.
On the contrary, I think that people are unsubscribing because in this
mailing list about collecting Classic icons there is NOT ENOUGH
discussion about the history of the computing boom and the hows and
whys
that led to it. To just limit the discussion to the mere hardware is
narrow minded and shows the kind of attitude which leads to consider
"the other" (the one which begs to differ) as an enemy or at least as
an
intruder. The "dont' bother us as we know what we should be talking
about" attitude might be legal and understandable but is it wise?
As already said here several times, computers are bits of metal and
plastic. They are important for the sentiments and the feelings they
managed to raise in each and everybody (and soul) of us. You keep your
hardware (and I will keep mine so that I can leave it to future
generations) but I will keep my principles and if this will mean I
will
have to do without you, then (I will be sorry but) be it.
enrico
--
================================================================
Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K.
tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile
website <http://www.ndirect.co.uk/~e.tedeschi>
================================================================
visit Brighton: <http://www.brighton.co.uk/tourist/welcome.htm>
Bill, please unsubscribe me.
OK.
Bill 
10 Jul
10 Jul
8:36 a.m.
New subject: Floppy Disk Media
Just curious here, does anyone have a list of the MANY brands of floppy
disks and who the actual manufacturer might be? I got intrigued several
years ago with the many floppy disks that were available and have been
just setting them aside as I saw interesting ones. So far, I haven't
bothered to catalog them but it is interesting to see the different
jackets.
9:57 a.m.
New subject: Floppy Disk Media
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11:17 a.m.
Kai Kaltenbach wrote:
Enrico,
You're absolutely, terribly correct. In our benighted shortsightedness
we have been ignoring the core, the soul, nay, the very existentialism
of the historical man-machine interface and the personal hygiene of Gary
Kildall. These bits of metal and plastic have become a zen-like cyborg
interface which has allowed us to ignore the realities of our Jungian
existance. Those among us who have perused and then obviously ignored
the message of the volume of our times, Gibson & Sterling's _The
Difference Engine_, and shall surely rotate on the firey rotissery of
Dante's twenty-ninth buglia of the pit, which of course is reserved for
those who have committed the terrible sin of coveting thy neighbor's
Imsai. How can we claim to discuss the so-called 'collecting' of
so-called 'classic' computers when our hypocritical censorious
self-righteousness has made us purblind to the fact that 'collect' also
purtains to a short prayer comprising an invocation, petition, and
conclusion! And 'classic' from the Roman 'classicus' identifies us as
citizens of the first rank, who should know better! What this obviously
boils down to is the age old conflict of materiality and the health of
the soul cleaved by the sword of societal amiguity. In an awful orgy of
idolitry we have in a very real and illusive sense integrated these
actual bits of, as you put it, metal and plastic into our flesh itself,
becoming no more than Waldos while Charles Babbage's heart is ripped
from his chest by ravens dark as toner, eight claws upon each talon.
Kai
Exactly!
enrico
4:34 p.m.
New subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View
First - if you don't want to hear my opinion - stop now! I am going to
get pretty detailed about what the list is/should be about. I may hurt
some feelings - but well hell - that's life!
First from Enrico -
On the contrary, I think that people are unsubscribing
because in this
mailing list about collecting Classic icons there is NOT ENOUGH
discussion about the history of the computing boom and the hows and
whys that led to it. To just limit the discussion to the mere hardware
is narrow minded and shows the kind of attitude which leads to consider
"the other" (the one which begs to differ) as an enemy or at least as
an intruder. The "dont' bother us as we know what we should be talking
about" attitude might be legal and understandable but is it wise?
No it is NOT wise! However - it is *as you said* understandable. Each
person is a collection of feelings and memories, sometimes refered to
as a *pile of the past*. Each of us has had different experiences in
EVERYTHING we do. No two people view life the EXACT same way.
Currently, this list is set on the aquistion of hardware. One reason
is to get it before it's GONE. Another, is the ECONOMY of collecting.
(I buy it for 10 and sell it for 15 Sam 8-) The point being, in two
years, if we did nothing - you may NEVER be able to buy it because
someone junked it! Nothing wrong with making hay while the sun shines.
The history of computing doesn't lend itself to the IMMEDIACY of hardware.
The history of computing IS. There is no cost in learning it,
understanding it, and aquiring it.
Now, if everybody on the list had an Apple, an Amiga, an Altair, an Imsai,
a DEC 11/24, an IBM 360, two Commodore 64s, a BBC, etc,etc,etc THEN we
might sit down and discuss the history. We can discuss it now - but I
would rather be gathering all the hardware I can get my hands on NOW and
think about the history.
I would probably die if someone wanted to give me the Intellec MDS that
Gary wrote CPM on. That is too much to hope for in this world 8-)
As already said here several times, computers are bits
of metal and
plastic. They are important for the sentiments and the feelings they
managed to raise in each and everybody (and soul) of us. You keep your
hardware (and I will keep mine so that I can leave it to future
generations) but I will keep my principles and if this will mean I
will have to do without you, then (I will be sorry but) be it.
As said before, we are all different. I will gladly discuss the history
of computing. However, if I stray from why I think Turing was a genius
to WOW I JUST GOT MY RL02 TO BOOT MY 11/23 - you will have to forgive me.
I'm just that kind of guy.
On the other hand tho - WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? I have seen
the messages from you in the last two weeks and you have not mentioned
*history* at all! You have mentioned the social and psychological impact
of why we collect individual machines - it the same with cars - it the
same with ANY collectable. But it is NOT what I call - History. Nobody
NEEDS a twenty year old computer! Not in the USE sense - they NEED them to
remind them of the good times in the past. That spark of WONDER or GLORY
or FULLFILLMENT they got from that item. The same as ANY collectable. If
you have no sense of wonder or glory or fulfillment - you don't collect
for the sake of collecting - you are collecting for the ECONOMICS of
collecting.
On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote:
You're absolutely, terribly correct. In our
benighted shortsightedness
we have been ignoring the core, the soul, nay, the very existentialism
of the historical man-machine interface and the personal hygiene of Gary
Kildall. These bits of metal and plastic have become a zen-like cyborg
[snipped
but saved]
becoming no more than Waldos while Charles
Babbage's heart is ripped
from his chest by ravens dark as toner, eight claws upon each talon.
Kai
Beautiful! I have not (except for Bill's bathroom story) been so
wonderfully entertained and amused by posts to the list than this!
You've gone up a notch in my book.
Glenn Roberts wrote:
I for one certainly support Bill's efforts to keep this list on target.
Enrico replied
Yes, agreed, BUT the pint being made here is WHICH is the target? Just
hardware OR history of the machines as well?
Pint! Oh point 8-(
I think Bill summed it up - go ahead - but don't *expect* anyone to
discuss it with you. The list hasn't been around long enough to develop
a *personality*. (Did I speak to late!?!?)
The list doesn't HAVE a POINT. But the people on it do.
We gather here and there in the faint glow of Cathode Ray Tubes connected
throughout the world by the wonder of modern man - The Internet - and
discuss computers that are older than 10 years. Some will never again
be seen as useful. As some say - "They can have my DEC, when they pry it
from my cold dead hands!" Some will use them, some
will sell them, some
will lurk in the dark corners, some will boil to the surface
with an
explosion of estatic joy and/or humor, some will solder little
thingmajiggies together, some will droll on and on about some favorite
piece of hardware or software, some will leave and others will come. It's
called "community" - the one thing man has over all other animals. It
isn't easy, and it isn't hard. There is give and take. Those who give
constantly will be consumed, Those that only take - will eventually be
bored.
The problem - currently - is Enrico. You have not either explained what
you want (I certainly don't understand) or what you want isn't here. If
you can explain - in terms we can understand - I am sure that your desires
can be fullfilled by this list as well as Sam's (sorry Sam - I see you as
a hardware mogul - more more more 8-) It is usually best, I have found, to
walk into a group and listen to what is being said. If an opportunity
presents itself, interject a question. (I remember that you did this very
well Enrico) Then if the current discussion recognizes your question, in
a positive way, you should then be permitted to state your case. This did
not happen! You should then wait for another opportunity. There is no
rule that if someone shows interest, you can not start you OWN
conversation. Just don't keep it on the list - take it to EMail. If
something important is discussed in private EMail, by all means, if all
concerned agree - put it on the list. This then becomes more than a
single observation and then the impact upon the group has more weight.
I also get a little perturbed when people state "This Weekends Haul".
I really don't have the time or inclination to read about all the neat
stuff I DID NOT get. I understand the joy and amazement of those of you
who do make great deals (Sam Grrrrrr....) but it only makes me feel more
or less - left out! I usually get one machine (my biggest haul was 12
clone motherboards - not even NEAR on topic!) and then gather all the
info I can to get it to work the way it was supposed to. Then every six
months I get antsy and fire them all up - just to make sure - and then
spend another month getting them all to work right again. And two months
paying off the electric bill. BUT - I DO want to know what everybody has!
If I need help - I will know who to go to! Right now - I just fire out a
question and get the responses. That is because this is a community.
Things to remember - every community has a town drunk, a town clown,
a town cop, and a town fool. It wouldn'tbe a community without them.
BC
6:44 p.m.
New subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View
Brett wrote:
I also get a little perturbed when people state "This Weekends Haul".
I really don't have the time or inclination to read about all the neat
stuff I DID NOT get. I understand the joy and amazement of those of you
I, for one, enjoy reading about what other people pick up. For one
thing, it is nice to see what pricing other people are paying and it
helps put perspective on other freebee's/purchases I may get in the
future. It also gives a feeling for what computers/stuff is available
out there. These "Weekend Haul" reports give a LOT of good information
and insight other than just "look at the neat stuff I picked up." Isn't
this what collecting is all about?
3:20 p.m.
New subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View
Brett wrote:
>
> I also get a little perturbed when people state "This Weekends Haul".
> I really don't have the time or inclination to read about all the neat
> stuff I DID NOT get. I understand the joy and amazement of those of you
I do not get bothered by this "boasting" I view this "This Weekend
Haul" as a good reference point in which is how hard to find or easy
to get as well as prices.
I hauled in three compaqs recently. One is Deskpro 386 with either
287/386 coprocessor board version, both SLT laptop series, soon they
will break the 1998/2000 year mark for 10 year limit. SLT 286 cost
me 50 and SLT 386s/20 cost 120 with docking station. Planning to use
them. My LTE 386s/20 is only 3 years away to 10 years in design only
but only 4 years old since I bought it as discontnuined sale up for
my use. My reasoning behind is I love them and it's quality, way it
looked and operation. I have a IBM VGA 9" mono behind me is over 10
year old and still used as a bench monitor and nice thing, I babied
it well to have no burn in on it, 150 bux *ouch!* used.
Enough of this blathing...anyway, you got my idea. I buy them for
quality even they're outragously outdated. The newer ones even Compaq
and Toshibas, Sony is now showing QC problems and sunk down as well.
Recently a association already issued several critations warning
buyers not to buy certain models from them.
Oh well. Back to subject. :)
My electronic TTYs, Minicom 4 two of them are based on 8 bit
microcontrollers and still speak bandot 5 bit via built in phone
coupler. I use them for phone calls via relay services for hearing
people otherwise, I do need relay if calling someone who has TTY on
other end. Both of them are over 10 years old and still living. :)
That shows 8 bitters stuff won't go away. :) Also one or few 8 bit
microcontrollers are onboard Pathfinder and maybe on the rover on the
Mars right now.
A side note, 486 machines that came out in '89 will make to 10 years
old limit too! What!?
Just curious, what else besides 10yr limit rule, just to remind
myself. :)
Jason D.
I, for one, enjoy reading about what other people pick up. For one
thing, it is nice to see what pricing other people are paying and it
helps put perspective on other freebee's/purchases I may get in the
future. It also gives a feeling for what computers/stuff is available
out there. These "Weekend Haul" reports give a LOT of good information
and insight other than just "look at the neat stuff I picked up." Isn't
this what collecting is all about?
8:10 p.m.
New subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View
On Fri, 11 Jul 1997 jpero(a)mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote:
I do not get bothered by this "boasting" I
view this "This Weekend
Haul" as a good reference point in which is how hard to find or easy
to get as well as prices.
Oooh another good word - bothered - I will use that later 8-)
["boasting" snipped 8-)]
my use. My reasoning behind is I love them and
it's quality, way it
looked and operation. I have a IBM VGA 9" mono behind me is over 10
year old and still used as a bench monitor and nice thing, I babied
it well to have no burn in on it, 150 bux *ouch!* used.
Enough of this blathing...anyway, you got my idea. I buy them for
quality even they're outragously outdated. The newer ones even Compaq
and Toshibas, Sony is now showing QC problems and sunk down as well.
Recently a association already issued several critations warning
buyers not to buy certain models from them.
Boy - DO NOT get me started on THIS subject!
Oh well. Back to subject. :)
Good 8-)
My electronic TTYs, Minicom 4 two of them are based on
8 bit
microcontrollers and still speak bandot 5 bit via built in phone
coupler. I use them for phone calls via relay services for hearing
people otherwise, I do need relay if calling someone who has TTY on
other end. Both of them are over 10 years old and still living. :)
That shows 8 bitters stuff won't go away. :)
That is a given. 8 bitters rule. Even 16 bitters rule. Tho I do have
some 4 bitters - they don't rule - they just barely survive 8-)
There are probably more 8 bit MPU and CPU's in existance now than
Intel CPU's. They are EVERYWHERE. Kind of like Candid Camera. Where
you least expect it. Cars, phones, thermostats, elevators, games, man
you name it - SOMEONE put a 6502/8085/6809 into it!
Also one or few 8 bit microcontrollers are onboard
Pathfinder and maybe
on the rover on the Mars right now.
THERE'S one classic I want to go for - Who's with me men??? We have until
what - 2007 and then it's ours! Classic Computer Rescue Sqaud to the -
huh - Rescue! (Scary thing is - may be we COULD go get it!)
By the way - anybody into LDRS?
A side note, 486 machines that came out in '89
will make to 10 years
old limit too! What!?
Just curious, what else besides 10yr limit rule, just to remind
myself. :)
Is there another rule?
BC
6:58 p.m.
New subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View
Marvin wrote:
Brett wrote:
I've been guilty of posting my "Weekend's Haul" a couple of times.
I
like to know what other people find and what the are paying for it.
Kind of a reality check against what I find around Dallas-Ft Worth. If
somebody gets something I really want, I might write them and see if
they want to trade or if it's really something they really want. I
sometimes pickup something that I don't collect so I can help someone
else out or trade for something I really want or "need". :-)
I'm sorry if this offend someone, but I like to know who comes across
unique hardware and even if I envy them, I'm also proud for them.
As for the philosophy wars, if I don't really care about the "soul or
zen" of computing, I don't have to read those posts....that is what a
"delete" button is for!
I also get a little perturbed when people state "This Weekends
Haul".
I really don't have the time or inclination
to read about all the
neat
stuff I DID NOT get. I understand the joy and
amazement of those of
you
I, for one, enjoy reading about what other people pick up. For one
thing, it is nice to see what pricing other people are paying and it
helps put perspective on other freebee's/purchases I may get in the
future. It also gives a feeling for what computers/stuff is available
out there. These "Weekend Haul" reports give a LOT of good
information
and insight other than just "look at the neat stuff I picked up."
Isn't
this what collecting is all about?
7:57 p.m.
New subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View
On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, James L. Rice wrote:
I've been guilty of posting my
"Weekend's Haul" a couple of times. I
like to know what other people find and what the are paying for it.
Kind of a reality check against what I find around Dallas-Ft Worth. If
somebody gets something I really want, I might write them and see if
they want to trade or if it's really something they really want. I
sometimes pickup something that I don't collect so I can help someone
else out or trade for something I really want or "need". :-)
Guilty? You are only guilty if they catch you 8-) AND can prove it! I
agree with the reasons. Just - how come all of YOU are so lucky???
I'm sorry if this offend someone, but I like to
know who comes across
unique hardware and even if I envy them, I'm also proud for them.
No! That's why I used the word *perturbed* 8-) No offense taken.
As for the philosophy wars, if I don't really care
about the "soul or
zen" of computing, I don't have to read those posts....that is what a
"delete" button is for!
Ah, but you are missing some of the fun 8-) I HOPE you read Kai's post!
If you did - but didn't understand - maybe you should start reading some
of those posts 8-)
BC
7:49 p.m.
New subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View
On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Marvin wrote:
Brett wrote:
That is why I chose the word *perturbed* 8-) And if your in California
with Sam 8-) there is nothing left!
Really, I don't *enjoy* reading them but you are right. I think if someone
actually made a study, you could get some interesting geographical and
soci-economical data from the "Weekend Haul" posts.
But I find that the rules of supply and demand still prevail. If there is
only ONE TI99/4A for sale in town - the guy gets what he wants for it! But
- maybe down in Texas - there may be 20 forsale and you can shop around. I
love my computers but - money - well I ain't got enough 8-)
BC
I also get a little perturbed when people state "This Weekends Haul".
I really don't have the time or inclination to read about all the neat
stuff I DID NOT get. I understand the joy and amazement of those of you
I, for one, enjoy reading about what other people pick up. For one
thing, it is nice to see what pricing other people are paying and it
helps put perspective on other freebee's/purchases I may get in the
future. It also gives a feeling for what computers/stuff is available
out there. These "Weekend Haul" reports give a LOT of good information
and insight other than just "look at the neat stuff I picked up." Isn't
this what collecting is all about? 
9:25 p.m.
New subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View
Brett wrote:
I couldn't agree more, one of the reasons I'm here is I'm hoping to find
out what fair prices for the stuff I'm getting are. Especially now that
I'm starting to look for the odder systems :^) I for one don't mind
hearing about this weekends haul!
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Mac Programmer |
+----------------------------------+---------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
I also get a little perturbed when people state "This Weekends Haul".
I really don't have the time or inclination to read about all the neat
stuff I DID NOT get. I understand the joy and amazement of those of you
I, for one, enjoy reading about what other people pick up. For one
thing, it is nice to see what pricing other people are paying and it
helps put perspective on other freebee's/purchases I may get in the
future. It also gives a feeling for what computers/stuff is available
out there. These "Weekend Haul" reports give a LOT of good information
and insight other than just "look at the neat stuff I picked up." Isn't
this what collecting is all about?
9851
days inactive
9852
days old
11 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
danjo＠xnet.com -
enrico＠Brighton-UK.com -
healyzh＠ix.netcom.com -
jpero＠mail.cgo.wave.ca -
jrice＠texoma.net -
kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com -
marvin＠rain.org -
shoppa＠alph02.triumf.ca