6 Apr
2013
6 Apr
'13
12:34 p.m.
allison <ajp166 at verizon.net> wrote:
I'd thought so; perhaps I'll happen across some esoteric cards that
use them, or I'll hack something custom in there.
Look uo the backplan to find out its configuration.
From my initial posting:
> It is the BA11 variety and contains a H9273 backplane, which as far as I could find
out is QQ-CD
Am I missing something here?
Also read the fine manual for the quad width 11/23 you
will find there
are jumpers/switches for use in AB/CD backplanes. Most quad width cards also conform to
that.
Also from my initial posting:
> The M8189 is a quad-width board, but with the CD
part configured
> for a serpentine backplane (the manual mentions two jumpers to be removed when using
in another
> environment to avoid shorting signals together)
Am I missing something here?
CD lines are needed for RL11 controller (two board
RL01/02 controller).
Ah, thanks. Alas I've already been promised the single
board variety of that option.
And if all else fails you can replace the backplane
with one that is
AB/AB as I've done that many times.
Thereby sacrificing the option of
integrating any CD-dependent boards I might happen across in the future. Best idea I could
think of until now would be a mixed (Q/CD - Q/Q) layout backplane, but I do not know
whether these even exist in the required 9-slot form factor. Anyway, I think I'll
treat the backplane as a given constant right now (except from probably expanding it to
Q-22, see below) and look for the "right" boards to populate it.
David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
The H9273 is perfectly compatible with an 11/23 CPU;
there
is a jumper you can set for 18-bit use. Obviously, though,
turning it into a 22-bit backplane is preferable.
Fortunately, that's pretty easy.
Meh...I've been hearing that I might run into problems with some other processors
(LSI-11(/2), very early KDF11-A versions), should I ever need to use the backplane as a
test platform for one of those in the future. Is that problem the one simply worked around
with some insulating tape over the BDAL18:21 connector pads?
> The M8189 is a quad-width board, but with the CD
part configured
> for a serpentine backplane (the manual mentions two jumpers to be removed when using
in another
> environment to avoid shorting signals together), so again no "meaningful"
use of the CD lanes.
Correct. The Qbus PDP-11s only used the CD lane for
PMI
(or custom logic, if you had that).
Sounds interesting, could you elaborate?
I'd get the M8189 if you
can, because it saves you the hassle of finding boot ROM
and serial cards for the console.
Good, as it seems someone found one of these for
me.
What are these
intended for anyway (I was thinking of some sort of PMI predecessor, probably
wrong by now), and what boards do I need to take advantage of them in this machine?
For an 11/23, those lanes will just go unused. It's not
so bad, really; you have to try pretty hard to fill up 9
slots. If it's in
a box labelled 11/23, though, check to make sure someone
hasn't already performed the modification.
OK, thanks!
Arno
6 Apr
6 Apr
1:59 p.m.
On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 12:34 PM, Arno Kletzander <Arno_1983 at gmx.de> wrote:
The only existing application I know of (besides PMI) is the RL11
board set. There were probably quite a few other board sets that used
the CD lines for inter-board communication; the slots are routed
pin-to-pin for the most part, but slot-to-slot instead of bussed
straight through, so as long as you have the cards in the right order,
they won't be talking to other ones in the backplane. For example,
the MSV11-J boards (PMI memory) have the top pins connected straight
through to the bottom on the card, but the KDJ11-B only has the top
fingers populated, so the PMI bus terminates at the card. You could
put an RL11 board set directly below it with no negative consequences,
for example.
I'd thought so; perhaps I'll happen across some esoteric cards that
use them, or I'll hack something custom in there.
Pretty much. There are plenty of quad-height boards that use the CD
slots for power but nothing else.
I wouldn't swear to the fact that there weren't 11/23s sold as 18-bit
systems; my fuzzy memory says that 11/23 might have been 18-bit while
11/23+ would have been 22-bit. Other people doubtless know better
than me; my other recollection is that the "plus" distinction has to
do with the KDF11-B board (which has the boot ROM and SLUs).
- Dave
David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
Well, you *could* work around it that way. I guess Kapton would
probably be a good bet. You're very unlikely to be using early LSI-11
boards unless you're a true masochist, IMO, but I wouldn't call it
impossible. The issue is that the very early boards used those as
test lines, which has the tendency to cause problems with other 22-bit
devices. Be aware that if you're using the system as 18-bit, you'll
need to make sure that your peripheral cards are jumpered to 18-bit if
necessary (boards that use DMA often need to know).
The 22-bit conversion is also easy to undo, assuming you're handy with
a soldering iron; you're just bussing 4 lines straight down the
backplane. For me, undoing that would be about as easy as looking up
which pins to cover and then covering them with tape, though I guess
it would involve removing the backplane from the chassis. It's a
shame that the H9273 doesn't have wire-wrap stakes coming out the back
like the H9270 does, because that makes the conversion much easier to
perform and to reverse.
The H9273 is perfectly compatible with an 11/23
CPU; there
is a jumper you can set for 18-bit use. Obviously, though,
turning it into a 22-bit backplane is preferable.
Fortunately, that's pretty easy.
Meh...I've been hearing that I might run into problems with some other processors
(LSI-11(/2), very early KDF11-A versions), should I ever need to use the backplane as a
test platform for one of those in the future. Is that problem the one simply worked around
with some insulating tape over the BDAL18:21 connector pads? > The M8189
is a quad-width board, but with the CD part configured
> for a serpentine backplane (the manual mentions two jumpers to be removed when using
in another
> environment to avoid shorting signals together), so again no "meaningful"
use of the CD lanes.
Correct. The Qbus PDP-11s only used the CD lane
for PMI
(or custom logic, if you had that).
Sounds interesting, could you elaborate?
What are these intended for anyway (I was thinking of
some sort of PMI predecessor, probably
wrong by now), and what boards do I need to take advantage of them in this machine?
For an 11/23, those lanes will just go unused. It's not
so bad, really; you have to try pretty hard to fill up 9
slots. If it's
in
a box labelled 11/23, though, check to make sure someone
hasn't already performed the modification.
OK, thanks! 
3:53 p.m.
On 6 April 2013 13:59, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
I wouldn't swear to the fact that there
weren't 11/23s sold as 18-bit
systems; my fuzzy memory says that 11/23 might have been 18-bit while
11/23+ would have been 22-bit. Other people doubtless know better
than me; my other recollection is that the "plus" distinction has to
do with the KDF11-B board (which has the boot ROM and SLUs).
I don't know anything about how DEC sold their machines, but I do believe
they
did sell the 11/23 as an 18-bit system (even though the KDF11A is very
much capable of 22-bit), as I remember there is a "PDP-11/23" version of
the BA11-N box (with H9273-A, the BA11-N always has the H9273-A; except
special OEM boxes that might just have an H9275-A -- or a hobbyist (or
company that was too cheap/clever to get a 23+ box) who has upgraded their
BA11-N to an H9275-A); as well as a "PDP-11/03L" version of the BA11-N box
(the difference between the two being only the front plate, which on the
11/03-L version is all white, including the "background" of the logotype,
while the 11/23 has the "background" of the logo painted black (to make it
more visible)).
The 11/23+ comes in the BA11-S box, which while also a 9-slot long
backplane, is the H9276-A backplane which is by default a Q22/CD backplane;
I don't think the H9275-A can fit into a BA11-S box, though.
I really want to get my hands on a PDP-11/03L version of the BA11-N box;
I'm still trying to replace my "lost" PDP-11 system, and at present all
I've got is a CPU and an H9275-A backplane. (I like the "all white" front
plate, looks nicer in my opinion.) Nevermind that though, I'm going astray
of the original topic.
Cheers,
Christian
5:29 p.m.
On 04/06/2013 03:53 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:
On 6 April 2013 13:59, David Riley <fraveydank at
gmail.com> wrote:
The 11/23 was sole in many variants and price points including raw boards
for OEM system integrators (Bridgeport machine tool for example).
the initial 11/23 was avaiable with and without MMU the non mmu part
was close to using the 11/2 also 16bit. Early MMUs had apparently a
bug and were limited to full performance 18bits. Later production was
full 22bit.
I actually have all varient of the LSI-11 (11/03), F11 (11/23) and a
few J11(11/73) plus the T11 (falcon KXT11).
I wouldn't swear to the fact that there
weren't 11/23s sold as 18-bit
systems; my fuzzy memory says that 11/23 might have been 18-bit while
11/23+ would have been 22-bit. Other people doubtless know better
than me; my other recollection is that the "plus" distinction has to
do with the KDF11-B board (which has the boot ROM and SLUs).
I don't know anything about how DEC sold their machines, but I do believe
they
did sell the 11/23 as an 18-bit system (even though the KDF11A is very
much capable of 22-bit), as I remember there is a "PDP-11/23" version of
the BA11-N box (with H9273-A, the BA11-N always has the H9273-A; except
special OEM boxes that might just have an H9275-A -- or a hobbyist (or company that was too cheap/clever to get a 23+ box)
who has upgraded their
BA11-N to an H9275-A); as well as a "PDP-11/03L" version of the BA11-N box
(the difference between the two being only the front plate, which on the
11/03-L version is all white, including the "background" of the logotype,
while the 11/23 has the "background" of the logo painted black (to make it
more visible)).
There were outside companies that built custom system s but DEC had
their own
groups (computer special systems CSS). Other that came to mind were
Charles River Data systems where the CPU was DEC and the rest was a mix of
compatible boards and other third party boards (Amperx, CRDS, CMD...)
and boxes.
The 11/23+ comes in the BA11-S box, which while also a 9-slot long
backplane, is the H9276-A backplane which is by default a Q22/CD backplane;
I don't think the H9275-A can fit into a BA11-S box, though.
Also the BA11 box is existent in not less than 5 or more flavors with
varying
backplanes, power supplies, and distribution panels. Many evolved over
time.
I have BA11S that (factory) have at least four different backplanes. I also
live 10 MI from DEC and worked there for 10 years.
The H9275 can be fitted, the standard connecting cables may or may not
match up but can be had made easily.
I've even put the backplane from the BA32 in a BA11. The form caxtor is
very standardized though the interconnect for power varies with molex or
terminal barrier strips being used.
I really want to get my hands on a PDP-11/03L version of the BA11-N box;
I'm still trying to replace my "lost" PDP-11 system, and at present all
I've got is a CPU and an H9275-A backplane. (I like the "all white" front
plate, looks nicer in my opinion.) Nevermind that though, I'm going astray
of the original topic.
The original had the black plate the later ones were white and part of
the then
"corporate cabs" in 30, 40, 50, 60 and 72 inch heights. The difference
was the later
racks had rounded corners to the side panels. Never mind the MINC
systems in
their own unique packages.
It's important to know DEC sold "packaged sytems", custom systems and
special
contract systems and the best example of the later being those for
Telephone
company. Any of those found in the wild may have morphed into something
very different from how it was sold.
Allison
5:07 p.m.
On 04/06/2013 01:59 PM, David Riley wrote:
I wouldn't swear to the fact that there
weren't 11/23s sold as 18-bit
systems; my fuzzy memory says that 11/23 might have been 18-bit while
11/23+ would have been 22-bit. Other people doubtless know better
than me; my other recollection is that the "plus" distinction has to
do with the KDF11-B board (which has the boot ROM and SLUs).
Nearly all KDF11-A boards (the dual-wide version) actually do support
22-bit addressing. I believe it was etch rev "C" that added 22-bit support.
I've had many KDF11s over the years; I don't think I've seen any of the
non-22-bit-capable ones.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
6:14 p.m.
On Apr 6, 2013, at 17:07, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 04/06/2013 01:59 PM, David Riley wrote:
Oh yes, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Very few
extant KDF-11s are 18-bit. All I meant to say was that I
wasn't 100% sure what the distinguishing feature for
the "plus" in the 11/23+ was, but I'm pretty sure it was
one of those two. Most likely the KDF11-B.
- Dave
I wouldn't swear to the fact that there
weren't 11/23s sold as 18-bit
systems; my fuzzy memory says that 11/23 might have been 18-bit while
11/23+ would have been 22-bit. Other people doubtless know better
than me; my other recollection is that the "plus" distinction has to
do with the KDF11-B board (which has the boot ROM and SLUs).
Nearly all KDF11-A boards (the dual-wide version) actually do support
22-bit addressing. I believe it was etch rev "C" that added 22-bit support.
I've had many KDF11s over the years; I don't think I've seen any of the
non-22-bit-capable ones.
6:01 p.m.
On 04/06/2013 12:34 PM, Arno Kletzander wrote:
Sounds interesting, could you elaborate?
PMI (private Memory interconnect) was limited to the 11/73 KDJ11 cpus
or later.
However the 11/23 uad has jumper that need to be correct for the
backplane used
and some of the backplanes also have jumpers for the different CPUs.
yes, the dual width card only runs uODT and that means typing in a boot
every time or a TEV11, MRV11 (rom card) with valid boot. The 11/23
M8189 has three flavors and the main difference is what the on board boot
roms have for device boots. The early ones cannot boot MSCP devices
such as the RQDXn. One way to cheat that is find a set of compatible
EProms or boot RT11 from RX02 or TU58 and load a MSCP device handler
and then you can boot from the MSCP. Or MOP load via a serial (or SYNC)
port from a suitable host.
I'd thought so; perhaps I'll happen across some esoteric cards that
use them, or I'll hack something custom in there. Most esoteric cards are odd
enough that if not fully documented they may
be unsafe to even use
or they are part of a unique hardware system that used CD totally
independent of the CPU system.
I have a few like that (part of a machine control system) that require a
pair of 16bit parallel IO
board to communicate with the CPU and the CD bus only supplies power (it
has its own
interconnect over the top). FYI that was used to control a bridgeport
mill (3 axis).
The only common card set that depends on CD is RL11 The two board
RL01/02 controller
and it's only 18bit capable, if you working with 22bit system (fully
populated with ram)
then you need the RLV21 which is a single quad board and works in all
backplanes...
oh and also RL02 drives, a 40" rack minimum, plus a good back!
PPS oh, I have at least two that have all slots filled! Its way to easy
to plug in IO.
For example RLV21 quad width, RQDX3 dual, TKQ50 (dual) TK50,
RXV21 (dual) RX02 drive controller, DZV11 serial IO(quad),
LPV11 parallel printer (dual), DEQNA (dual),
full 4mb memory (3 quad boards). don't forget the CPU,
11/23B+ also a quad board.
Thats 16 slots filled plus two grant cards total 18 making a full box.
The grant cards allow for optimal board placement and are required to
keep the DMA and interrupt vector chain complete.
In the end the whole Q22 this is only an issue when you exceed 256Kbytes
of memory
as the Q22 allowed the MMU to reach 4MB of ram.
Allison
allison <ajp166 at verizon.net> wrote:
Yes, some of the backplanes and the cpu board have jumpesr that need to
be correct and matching.
ITs why in the previous I suggested that you Read The Fine Manual. The
DEC PDP11 Microcomputer
handbooks are important reference s to all this and much more. Without
them you are working blind.
I have full sets spanning the years and it fills about 5 ft (1.5M) of
linear shelf space. I consider
them as more important than the hardware. While much of it is on the
net I find it harder to
scan for a specific item like the default jumpers for DLV11J. The books
have a bit of wear
Look uo the backplan to find out its
configuration.
From my initial posting:
> It is the BA11 variety and contains a H9273 backplane, which as far as I could find
out is QQ-CD
Am I missing something here?
Also read the fine manual for the quad width
11/23 you will find there
are jumpers/switches for use in AB/CD backplanes. Most quad width cards also conform to
that.
Also from my initial posting:
> The M8189 is a quad-width board, but with the
CD part configured
> for a serpentine backplane (the manual mentions two jumpers to be removed when using
in another
> environment to avoid shorting signals together)
Am I missing something here?
from actual use.
CD lines are
needed for RL11 controller (two board RL01/02 controller).
Ah, thanks. Alas
I've already been promised the single board variety of that option.
And if all else fails you can replace the
backplane with one that is
AB/AB as I've done that many times.
Thereby sacrificing the option of
integrating any CD-dependent boards I might happen across in the future. Best idea I could
think of until now would be a mixed (Q/CD - Q/Q) layout backplane, but I do not know
whether these even exist in the required 9-slot form factor. Anyway, I think I'll
treat the backplane as a given constant right now (except from probably expanding it to
Q-22, see below) and look for the "right" boards to populate it.
David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
The H9273 is perfectly compatible with an 11/23
CPU; there
is a jumper you can set for 18-bit use. Obviously, though,
turning it into a 22-bit backplane is preferable.
Fortunately, that's pretty easy.
Meh...I've been hearing that I might run
into problems with some other processors (LSI-11(/2), very early KDF11-A versions), should
I ever need to use the backplane as a test platform for one of those in the future. Is
that problem the one simply worked around with some insulating tape over the BDAL18:21
connector pads?
The M8189
is a quad-width board, but with the CD part configured
for a serpentine backplane (the manual mentions two jumpers to be removed when using in
another
environment to avoid shorting signals together), so again no "meaningful" use
of the CD lanes.
Correct. The Qbus PDP-11s only used the CD lane for PMI
(or custom logic, if you had that). I'd get
the M8189 if you
can, because it saves you the hassle of finding boot ROM
and serial cards for the console.
Good, as it seems someone found one of these for
me. What are these intended for anyway (I was thinking of
some sort of PMI predecessor, probably
wrong by now), and what boards do I need to take advantage of them in this machine?
For an 11/23, those lanes will just go unused. It's not
so bad, really; you have to try pretty hard to fill up 9
slots. If it's
in
a box labelled 11/23, though, check to make sure someone
hasn't already performed the modification.
OK, thanks!
4:04 p.m.
On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Jochen Kunz <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> wrote:
On Sat, 06 Apr 2013 18:01:42 -0400
allison <ajp166 at verizon.net> wrote:
The M7164 and M7165 are connected via 40-conductor and 50-conductor
intermodule cables, not the CD interconnect on the backplane.
The only common card set that depends on CD is
RL11
The KDA50 doesn't use CD?
4196
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8 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
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ajp166＠verizon.net -
Arno_1983＠gmx.de -
captainkirk359＠gmail.com -
fraveydank＠gmail.com -
glen.slick＠gmail.com -
jkunz＠unixag-kl.fh-kl.de -
mcguire＠neurotica.com