26 Oct
1998
26 Oct
'98
3:35 p.m.
Chuck McManis said speaking of EBAY:
It sounds like this is a "bad" thing. Is it?
If so why?
----- START RANT -----------------
Yes, it a Baaad thing. I was very happy when my computers were "worthless"
(to everyone else), thank you very much for asking.
1) Computers are appearing everywhere. I don't have to look so hard
any more. As a result I don't yell "Yipee" as loud any more, especially
when I realize what it's going to cost me.
2) A good portion of the discussions on this list are about what some
machine is
worth. A hobby that allows a person to gain complex knowledge of
so many aspects of their machines and it history has been reducted
to the level of baseball trading cards and "beanies". I would
rather hear about how someone just got a machine running for the
first time in 15 years.
3) I see a "Low Tech" craze coming. People will be mounting S-100 boards
to hang on the wall. Just like the people that buy old magazines,
cut them up to frame the old advertisements. By piecing out a computer
they make alot of money, and someone has a piece of Americana to
decorate their den, but it's taking technology out of context.
This will come when the prices "crash". Imagine you need a S-100 disk
controller. You find one,it costs a fortune and you need to chip it
out of a block of Lucite, because someone made it into a paper weight.
4) I don't care for the way it makes people react. The following is from
the CP/M list last weekend:
About a week or so I let loose that I had a few IMSAI
chassis available.
This resulted in a deluge of mailings. I was rather amazed at this - that
anyone would want them at all.
I offered them for free (postage) and still am doing so. A couple of
takers
have been identified.
What I cannot abide is a few that got real abusive. I was offering
something
for nothing, yet a few insisted on demanding they get
the equipment. I
received some nasty insinuations and threats. This I will not
tolerate and
each party has been told so personally.
I wish to reiterate here that I am appalled at the behavior of these
few. It
was fortunate that the majority had better manners. I
nearly tossed the
whole batch in the garbage.
Excuse the venting - Sorry about the whole mess
Rich Raspenti
5) "Beanies" are made to be collectible. They don't have a story to tell.
They don't have a functionality that is greater than the sum of their
parts. You don't play with them. You just display them.
And that is the biggest problem. When a treasured possession becames too
valuable to use for fear of damaging it, that defeats MY purpose for
collecting computers.
- the not so oldtimer
----- END RANT -------------------------
It would seem that
eBay is making a market for older computers that before didn't exist. Now
is it that the 'old timers' who were used to picking up C64's at a garage
sale for $1 will now have to pay $25 are grumbling? Doesn't this
potentially increase the value of your own collection many fold? Isn't that
a good thing?
Traditionally there is a rush of "collectible fever" (if
you've ever dealt with collectibles, and my Dad has for many more years
than I) where lots of people rush in an buy anything that may be
collectible hoping to get in at the bottom of the next "beanie" craze, then
there is a rush of junk dealers who prey on those bozos and come in and
sell them a bunch of "L@@K! R@RE!" Commodore 64's or 486SL machines for
over market prices, and then there is a general "crash" of the market as
the bozo's leave and prices go back to more rational levels (but usually
higher than they were before the "collectible" craze hit) and then, if they
are truely collectable (and there are many properties of things that make
them so) then the price begins to reflect actual rarity, condition, and
that imponderable "desirability."
=========================================
Doug Coward
Press Start Inc.
Sunnyvale,CA
=========================================
26 Oct
26 Oct
7:51 p.m.
At 06:35 PM 10/26/98 -0800, Doug Coward's Rant...
1) Computers are appearing everywhere. I don't have
to look so hard
any more. As a result I don't yell "Yipee" as loud any more, especially
when I realize what it's going to cost me.
So you would prefer that these computers silently went into the land fill
rather than have you see that they exist and perhaps rescue them? Perhaps
this come under the heading of what you don't know doesn't hurt you...
2) A good portion of the discussions on this list are
about what some
machine is
worth. A hobby that allows a person to gain complex knowledge of
so many aspects of their machines and it history has been reducted
to the level of baseball trading cards and "beanies". I would
rather hear about how someone just got a machine running for the
first time in 15 years.
I think for many of the posters on the list "worth" is irrelevant in terms
of SELLING computers, but many of us find it worth something to acquire
them. If the promise of wealth, or even just something for what they
consider to be "junk" gets those machines out into the open at least if
gives you the _choice_ of deciding what it would be worth to you to get one
of these computers.
3) I see a "Low Tech" craze coming. People
will be mounting S-100 boards
to hang on the wall. Just like the people that buy old magazines,
cut them up to frame the old advertisements. By piecing out a computer
they make alot of money, and someone has a piece of Americana to
decorate their den, but it's taking technology out of context.
This will come when the prices "crash". Imagine you need a S-100 disk
controller. You find one,it costs a fortune and you need to chip it
out of a block of Lucite, because someone made it into a paper weight.
Again, I'll argue its better than having someone make it into dust because
the fingers on it had .001 oz of gold. At least I can chip out the lucite,
I can't reassemble a board that has been crushed!
4) I don't care for the way it makes people react.
The following is from
the CP/M list last weekend:
[description deleted]
Rudeness is a fact of life, I suspect it is more the caliber of people who
are on the internet has gone down rather than a sudden rudening of the
world. And yes, there are people who hear stories of the guy who pulled an
Altair out of the dumpster and sold it on eBay for $5K. That brings a
newer, less savory, portion of the population into the mix, and yet as your
story shows, the seller can choose not to sell to rude people. Further you
can always post a message saying in effect "I'm not rude, I'm not turning
these things around for a quick buck, I'm a serious collector who will care
for your machines." You'd be suprised that a lot of folks will be
responsive to this.
5) "Beanies" are made to be collectible. They
don't have a story to tell.
They don't have a functionality that is greater than the sum of their
parts. You don't play with them. You just display them.
And that is the biggest problem. When a treasured
possession becames too
valuable to use for fear of damaging it, that defeats MY purpose for
collecting computers.
- the not so oldtimer
But you haven't changed and nor has your equipment. A friend of my Dad has
a '55 Porche Roadster that he bought new and kept up. Only 1,500 made,
appraised at $158,000. He still drives it, plays with it. Even though by
"adding miles" he reduces its value. The same it true with these old
machines. You use them or you don't. I power on/off my PDP-8/e knowing that
this might be the time it burns out a light bulb, but I do it anyway
because I'm more entranced with the machine than with its value. So what
good does it do to attempt to deny that some other types of collectors exist?
So this bad thing you rant about has the effect of making computers you
would never have heard about available to you. That is what a market is all
about, bringing goods and consumers together.
The supply of classic computers is steadily shrinking, the quantity of
people interested in owning one is increasing. I share your sense of
'grief' that the "easy pickings" are harder to find (except for Megan
of
whom I"m intensely jealous this evening!) but it is inevitable, and it
will only get worse. Or start collecting PC clones, they'll continue to be
cheap for a while...
--Chuck
8:09 p.m.
On Mon, 26 Oct 1998, Chuck McManis wrote:
There are many ways to get computers out of hiding. Going door to door is
one way, but I wouldn't recommend it. I've suggested in the past posting
an ad in your local paper. Someone took me up on this suggestion and
posted a follow up message describing their success. I offer that this is
the best way to find old computers, and makes where you live irrelevant,
which is why I have no pity for people who whine that we folks in the
Silicon Valley have it better than most.
The computers are out there. You just have to be smarter than the
computer. Pretend you are a vintage computer, and think to yourself,
"Where would I be hiding?" The answer to that is garages, basements,
closets, attics, storage sheds, etc. "How would I find me?" Ask around.
Send a flyer to businesses in your area offering scrap value for their old
computers. One in ten reponses you get will NOT be a PC, and will make
the effort worthwhile.
So eBay is NOT the best way to find these old computers and get them out
into the open. The trick is to find them BEFORE they hit eBay, so you
have a good chance at getting it for yourself, and for cheap (sometimes
free).
2) A good
portion of the discussions on this list are about what some
machine is
worth. A hobby that allows a person to gain complex knowledge of
so many aspects of their machines and it history has been reducted
to the level of baseball trading cards and "beanies". I would
rather hear about how someone just got a machine running for the
first time in 15 years.
I think for many of the posters on the list "worth" is irrelevant in terms
of SELLING computers, but many of us find it worth something to acquire
them. If the promise of wealth, or even just something for what they
consider to be "junk" gets those machines out into the open at least if
gives you the _choice_ of deciding what it would be worth to you to get one
of these computers. story shows, the seller can choose not to sell to rude
people. Further you
can always post a message saying in effect "I'm not rude, I'm not turning
these things around for a quick buck, I'm a serious collector who will care
for your machines." You'd be suprised that a lot of folks will be
responsive to this.
In fact, a lot of people will simply GIVE you computers if they know its
going to a good home. Some guy just went through a tremendous amount of
effort to dig out an NEC PC-8000 (a Z-80 based machine from Japan from the
early 80s), clean it up, test it, gather software for it, package it up
and ship it out to me because he knew it would have a new life in the VCF
exhibition.
A lot of people are holding on to their old computers because they feel
they have some importance. They are simply unaware that there is an
interest out there in preserving them, and hold onto them figuring if they
won't, nobody will. It is those people you have to search out. Once you
do, and once you convince them you will hang onto their babies and take
care of them for future generations, they will generally give you their
computers, or in the very least sell them for cheap.
So this bad thing you rant about has the effect of
making computers you
would never have heard about available to you. That is what a market is all
about, bringing goods and consumers together.
I think the one point that Doug made that rings out the loudest is that
its no longer fun. Its much more exciting to come across a computer
you've never seen or heard of before in some dusty old surplus store and
have a chance at buying it, as opposed to seeing it listed on eBay and
knowing there's a 1% chance you'll end up with it.
It's a double-edged sword ("double-sided diskette" seems a more
appropriate cliche :). Either you'll never know it existed and thus will
be content, or you'll know it exists but someone with far greater
discretionary income got it instead of you.
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ever onward.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 09/21/98]
27 Oct
27 Oct
5:11 a.m.
Sam Ismail wrote:
In fact, a lot of people will simply GIVE you computers if they know its
going to a good home. Some guy just went through a tremendous amount of
I have gotten a number of computers that way including the Lisa 2 and IBM
5100. Even when told what the computer might be worth, people have still
given me computers.
I think the one point that Doug made that rings out
the loudest is that
its no longer fun. Its much more exciting to come across a computer
you've never seen or heard of before in some dusty old surplus store and
have a chance at buying it, as opposed to seeing it listed on eBay and
knowing there's a 1% chance you'll end up with it.
We disagree here, as I still think it is a lot of fun. As far as the chance
of ending up with it, it is exactly what you are willing to pay for it.
While it is a lot of fun to find something new for free or very low cost
(i.e. the IBM TPC I just got), I do not agree with taking advantage of
peoples ignorance about what something might be worth, especially if I am
out soliciting computers. Running into them on ads or at swap meets does
not constitute taking advantage :)!
7:37 a.m.
Aaron Christopher Finney wrote:
On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Marvin wrote:
Evolution works. Depending on his age, either his parents or his
wife will kill him, a drop of chlorine in the gene pool.
--
Ward Griffiths <mailto:gram@cnct.com> <http://www.cnct.com/home/gram/>
WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.
We disagree here, as I still think it is a lot of
fun. As far as the chance
of ending up with it, it is exactly what you are willing to pay for it.
Like that guy who just bought the 1200XL on eBay for $600...
6:40 a.m.
On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Marvin wrote:
(i.e. the IBM TPC I just got), I do not agree with
taking advantage of
peoples ignorance about what something might be worth, especially if I am
out soliciting computers. Running into them on ads or at swap meets does
not constitute taking advantage :)!
Well, I take exception to this. What constitutes "taking advantage of"?
I can maybe moralize that if I was buying computers to turn around and
sell on eBay, but I'm not. I'm adding them to my collection. So it is in
my best interest to get the best price possible.
Also, its relative. Since I am of the opinion that eBay does not
constitute fair market value, what advantage am I taking?
And what obligation do I have to tell the ignorant seller about my hard
won knowledge on collecting computers? How much do I have to tell them?
What if I tell them there's a market for what they have, then what? Do I
have to go into a whole discussion about how they could log on to this
place called eBay, list their item, wait 7 days and then they're rich?
What if the seller doesn't even have an internet connection? What if they
do end up selling it to someone else for more than I would have paid?
Shouldn't I be entitled to a consulting fee for pushing them in the
direction to make more money?
Don't get me wrong, I still feel a little guilty when I get something
REALLY good for a song that I may have had to pay a testicle for on eBay.
But then again, to me these computers have no monetary value, just
historic. I come up with a price that the seller thinks is fair. I'm
happy, their happy, and more more computer is saved.
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ever onward.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 09/21/98]
8:16 a.m.
Sam Ismail wrote:
On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Marvin wrote:
I fully agree about getting the best price, but I have found when I inform
donors of what the value of the computers might be (and most of the time
they *do* ask), they go ahead and give me the stuff anyway. Additionally,
when they find other stuff I might be interested, they take the time to let
me know.
(i.e. the IBM TPC I just got), I do not agree
with taking advantage of
peoples ignorance about what something might be worth, especially if I am
out soliciting computers. Running into them on ads or at swap meets does
not constitute taking advantage :)!
Well, I take exception to this. What constitutes "taking advantage of"?
I can maybe moralize that if I was buying computers to turn around and
sell on eBay, but I'm not. I'm adding them to my collection. So it is in
my best interest to get the best price possible. Also, its relative. Since I am of the opinion that
eBay does not
constitute fair market value, what advantage am I taking?
We will just have to agree to disagree. I have talked to quite a few ebay
buyers and sellers, and almost everyone agrees that the pricing there is
fair to both buyer and seller. A friend of mine I talked to last week buys
there and feels that he is getting some real bargains. All a matter of
perspective.
And what obligation do I have to tell the ignorant
seller about my hard
won knowledge on collecting computers? How much do I have to tell them?
I guess it is just a matter of priorities or goals. I should say again that
I am talking about people who have sought me out and are *giving* me
computer stuff. When I see the stuff for sale, the rules change and I
generally don't attempt to educate them.
Don't get me wrong, I still feel a little guilty
when I get something
REALLY good for a song that I may have had to pay a testicle for on eBay.
ebay has had some real bargains. Remember the Altairs that sold for about
$500 and $700 some time ago? Most of the people I deal with I look at as
friends. And I try hard not to take advantage of friends ... unless I tell
them I am taking advantage of them :).
2:36 p.m.
On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Marvin wrote:
Well, if the guy who bought the Atari 1200XL thinks he got fair market
value, I'm happy for him. But I don't want to have to pay some schlub
$600 for an Atari 1200XL the next time I see one go up for sale (luckily I
won't have to, I paid less than $5 for mine at a thrift store, and if I
want another I'll probably find it for around the same price). What that
guy thinks is a "fair price" does NOT equate to "fair market". There
is a
huge distinction.
No, I don't remember when an Altair went for $500 on eBay. :)
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ever onward.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 09/21/98]
Also, its
relative. Since I am of the opinion that eBay does not
constitute fair market value, what advantage am I taking?
We will just have to agree to disagree. I have talked to quite a few ebay
buyers and sellers, and almost everyone agrees that the pricing there is
fair to both buyer and seller. A friend of mine I talked to last week buys
there and feels that he is getting some real bargains. All a matter of
perspective. Don't get
me wrong, I still feel a little guilty when I get something
REALLY good for a song that I may have had to pay a testicle for on eBay.
ebay has had some real bargains. Remember the Altairs that sold for about
$500 and $700 some time ago? Most of the people I deal with I look at as
friends. And I try hard not to take advantage of friends ... unless I tell
them I am taking advantage of them :). 
8:11 a.m.
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9 comments
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participants (7)
-
aaron＠wfi-inc.com -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cmcmanis＠freegate.com -
dastar＠ncal.verio.com -
dcoward＠pressstart.com -
gram＠cnct.com -
marvin＠rain.org