9 Mar
2016
9 Mar
'16
10:28 a.m.
Not a lot is said about early use of microprocessors in industrial
microcomputers. Everything you read about is so home computing oriented,
but I believe actual sales would have been greater in the industrial space
1974-77.
I compiled a quick thread on my site about the earliest use of
microprocessors in industrial microcomputers on my web site with links to a
related article from EDN Microprocessor Design Series Volume II and scans
of Process Computer Systems product brochures. PCS was a pioneer in
industrial micro-computing.
If anyone has info to share / correct please let me know and I will add to
the thread.
http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=631
--
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>
9 Mar
9 Mar
11:49 a.m.
On 03/09/2016 09:28 AM, william degnan wrote:
Not a lot is said about early use of microprocessors
in industrial
microcomputers. Everything you read about is so home computing oriented,
but I believe actual sales would have been greater in the industrial space
1974-77.
I compiled a quick thread on my site about the earliest use of
microprocessors in industrial microcomputers on my web site with links to a
related article from EDN Microprocessor Design Series Volume II and scans
of Process Computer Systems product brochures. PCS was a pioneer in
industrial micro-computing.
If anyone has info to share / correct please let me know and I will add to
the thread.
http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=631
Allen-Bradley had a 16-bit mini they called the 7300
Industrial Processor. They sold a lot of them in their 7320
(and 7340, 7360) CNC machine tool controls. (I have one
here.) See :
http://pico-systems.com/images/S_AB7320D.jpg
The row of red LEDs at the bottom of the pic is the front
panel of the 7300 CPU. They had an industrial control bus
that allowed you to connect a wide variety of interface
boards, like encoder counters, DACs, digital inputs and
outputs, etc. It used battery-backed DRAM, and was made
around 1978.
Jon
12:30 p.m.
Before uP's many used bit slice's I'm slowly putting together a
Westinghouse Numa-Logic 700 and 1200 setup. (BTW anyone have parts,
software, etc ?).
In my opinion Modicom was the best, did not need external cooling, A/B has
clout thus pretty much dominated. Did you know they used core at first and
some customers demanded it since it kept its ones and zeros when the power
went away ?
There's a few sites with URL's on early controllers, but I don't have any
written down Google Allen Bradly 1770,1771,1772,1773,1774
On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 8:49 AM, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
On 03/09/2016 09:28 AM, william degnan wrote:
Not a lot is said about early use of
microprocessors in industrial
microcomputers. Everything you read about is so home computing oriented,
but I believe actual sales would have been greater in the industrial space
1974-77.
I compiled a quick thread on my site about the earliest use of
microprocessors in industrial microcomputers on my web site with links to
a
related article from EDN Microprocessor Design Series Volume II and scans
of Process Computer Systems product brochures. PCS was a pioneer in
industrial micro-computing.
If anyone has info to share / correct please let me know and I will add to
the thread.
http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=631
Allen-Bradley had a 16-bit mini they called the 7300 Industrial
Processor. They
sold a lot of them in their 7320 (and 7340, 7360) CNC
machine tool controls. (I have one here.) See :
http://pico-systems.com/images/S_AB7320D.jpg
The row of red LEDs at the bottom of the pic is the front panel of the
7300 CPU. They had an industrial control bus that allowed you to connect a
wide variety of interface boards, like encoder counters, DACs, digital
inputs and outputs, etc. It used battery-backed DRAM, and was made around
1978.
Jon
9:20 p.m.
On 03/09/2016 11:30 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote:
Before uP's many used bit slice's I'm
slowly putting together a
Westinghouse Numa-Logic 700 and 1200 setup. (BTW anyone have parts,
software, etc ?).
In my opinion Modicom was the best, did not need external cooling, A/B has
clout thus pretty much dominated. Did you know they used core at first and
some customers demanded it since it kept its ones and zeros when the power
went away ?
As far as I know, the 7300 never used core. No sign of
anything like that in the book. They did have a big backup
battery for the DRAM, I used a couple AH 12 V Gel Cell
battery. The charger for the Gel Cell ran when the control
power was off, so it was supposed to maintain the memory
indefinitely - except the memory power switch had a dirty
contact and would dump the memory every couple of weeks.
Jon
9:56 p.m.
Early minicomputers were part of the electronics business itself.
Witness the Fairchild Sentry ATE gear using the FST-1 minicomputer at
around the time that Fairchild was rolling out its TTL and Macrologic
lines. 24-bit more-or-less general-purpose. I believe I wrote about
what I'd deduced about the thing before Al uploaded some valuable
information on it.
AFAIK, there's still a manufacturer in Israel still using one of the
bed-of-nails Sentry test setups.
--Chuck
10:27 p.m.
Had my numbers mixed PLC-2 family 1772-M8 and -M16
Pretty bad since one is about 20 feet away from me
-pete
On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 6:20 PM, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
On 03/09/2016 11:30 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote:
Before uP's many used bit slice's I'm
slowly putting together a
Westinghouse Numa-Logic 700 and 1200 setup. (BTW anyone have parts,
software, etc ?).
In my opinion Modicom was the best, did not need external cooling, A/B has
clout thus pretty much dominated. Did you know they used core at first and
some customers demanded it since it kept its ones and zeros when the power
went away ?
As far as I know, the 7300 never used core. No sign of anything like that
in the book. They did have a big backup battery for the DRAM, I used a
couple AH 12 V Gel Cell battery. The charger for the Gel Cell ran when the
control power was off, so it was supposed to maintain the memory
indefinitely - except the memory power switch had a dirty contact and would
dump the memory every couple of weeks.
Jon
1:54 p.m.
On 03/09/2016 09:28 AM, william degnan wrote:
Not a lot is said about early use of microprocessors
in industrial
microcomputers. Everything you read about is so home computing
oriented, but I believe actual sales would have been greater in the
industrial space
Do you count that 1-bit MC14500 dingus as a microprocessor? :)
PLCs have used all sorts of microprocessors from 8080 to the latest
bleeding edge stuff. If you're doing archeology of MPUs, the PLC market
is a great place to start as the iron these things were attached to
(anying from PCB drills, EDM setups, turret lathes, etc.) are still
running. I recall an ex-in-law who bought himself an IMSAI 8080 and
used it to run his vacuum forming setup.
The NSC IMP16 was used in Sun Engine Analyzers, which must count as an
early application.
I suspect that the nuclear power industry is one place that you'll find
the oldest stuff, however, given the long regulatory approval process
for change.
--Chuck
2:30 p.m.
On Mar 9, 2016, at 1:54 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at
sydex.com> wrote:
...
I suspect that the nuclear power industry is one place that you'll find the oldest
stuff, however, given the long regulatory approval process for change.
I remember a nuclear reactor (research, not power generation) controlled by a PDP-9.
paul
2:36 p.m.
On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
Obviously different than the first microcomputers designed for smaller
tasks in an industrial setting, but I agree that certainly the last of the
Win 2000 systems are still churning away customize applications for
business purposes in the backrooms of shops, plants, etc..
--
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>
On Mar 9, 2016, at 1:54 PM, Chuck Guzis
<cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
...
I suspect that the nuclear power industry is one place that you'll find
the
oldest stuff, however, given the long regulatory approval process for
change.
I remember a nuclear reactor (research, not power generation) controlled
by a PDP-9.
paul
2:37 p.m.
On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 2:36 PM, william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net>
wrote:
Obviously different than the first microcomputers designed for smaller
tasks in an industrial setting, but I agree that certainly the last of the
Win 2000 systems are still churning away customize applications for
business purposes in the backrooms of shops, plants, etc..
... and to that end some of the first micros made for business probably
survived for a long time after similar CPUs were long gone form the home.
--
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>
On Mar 9, 2016, at 1:54 PM, Chuck Guzis
<cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
...
I suspect that the nuclear power industry is one place that you'll find
the
oldest stuff, however, given the long regulatory approval process for
change.
I remember a nuclear reactor (research, not power generation) controlled
by a PDP-9.
paul
9:36 p.m.
I had the 'opportunity' to take apart 80's era programmable logic
controllers:
Gould Modicon 584: AMD 2901 bitslice based
TI 520, pm 550: TMS 9900 (no suprise here)
TI 565: (Motorola 68000, after designers complained to mgmt, dont force us to use ti
micros)
Allen Bradley PLC2: AMD 2901, peripherals and comm modules KF etc z-80
I knew some of the designers, when asked why the 2901, well speed of course, and second
that their own microcode instruction set was 'provable' and could be man rated on
these processors.
Randy
________________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of william degnan
<billdegnan at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2016 11:37 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Early Microprocessors in Industrial Microcomputers
On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 2:36 PM, william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net>
wrote:
Obviously different than the first microcomputers designed for smaller
tasks in an industrial setting, but I agree that certainly the last of the
Win 2000 systems are still churning away customize applications for
business purposes in the backrooms of shops, plants, etc..
... and to that end some of the first micros made for business probably
survived for a long time after similar CPUs were long gone form the home.
--
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>
On Mar 9, 2016, at 1:54 PM, Chuck Guzis
<cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
...
I suspect that the nuclear power industry is one place that you'll find
the
oldest stuff, however, given the long regulatory approval process for
change.
I remember a nuclear reactor (research, not power generation) controlled
by a PDP-9.
paul
5:14 p.m.
On 03/09/2016 11:36 AM, william degnan wrote:
Obviously different than the first microcomputers
designed for
smaller tasks in an industrial setting, but I agree that certainly
the last of the Win 2000 systems are still churning away customize
applications for business purposes in the backrooms of shops, plants,
etc..
I still deal with PLCs that are running CP/M-86 as well as CP/M 68K.
Not that long ago, I helped out with a CNC punch that ran CP/M 2.2.
And there are still scads of embroidery machines running crufty OSes.
Basically, the issue is that the iron being controlled is very rugged,
parts are readily available and the electronics were built to last.
Here's a Mitsubishi DWC-90H EDM. Some of these guys still run from
cassette tape, though most have been upgraded to floppy or emulator.
http://bit.ly/220CbKX
These are systems that do work day-in and day-out even today after 30-40
years.
In the embedded world, it's even more pervasive. A couple of years
back, I retired a Toshiba microwave oven that used a TMS1000 MCU. It
still worked, but was unneeded. How's that for early microprocessor use?
--Chuck
7:36 p.m.
Paul Koning wrote:
On Mar 9, 2016,
at 1:54 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
...
I suspect that the nuclear power industry is one place that you'll find the oldest
stuff, however, given the long regulatory approval process for change.
I remember a nuclear reactor (research, not power generation) controlled by a PDP-9.
10:21 p.m.
On 2016-03-09 8:36 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
For Ontario Power Generation (formerly Ontario Hydro), the Nuclear
Power Generation
station at Darlington (just East of Toronto) still uses the PDP-11
running RSX-11. A
refurbishment is either in progress of will commence soon and that
might change, but
it is unlikely. It is easier to continue to use the original hardware
and software than
to completely revamp the system. In the past, only the servicing
hardware tends to
change.
Jerome Fine The Pickering Nuclear station ran on IBM 1800s and Bruce ran on PDP-8s.
The Nanticoke Coal fired thermal plant also used 1800s. I recall in my
early days at IBM they reconned a 1800 on our education center lab floor
for Ontario Hydro. They self serviced all their systems and a friend
who did a work term at Bruce was telling me they had a room full of
PDP-8s for spare parts.
Paul.
Paul Koning
wrote:
On Mar 9,
2016, at 1:54 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
...
I suspect that the nuclear power industry is one place that you'll
find the oldest stuff, however, given the long regulatory approval
process for change.
I remember a nuclear reactor (research, not power generation)
controlled by a PDP-9.
2:42 p.m.
On Mar 9, 2016, at 1:54 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at
sydex.com> wrote:
On 03/09/2016 09:28 AM, william degnan wrote:
Not quite industrial, but an interesting early microcontroller application I remember is
from around 1977, a music synthesizer keyboard (possibly the first one that was sensitive
to how hard you hit the keys) using an RCA 1802 microcontroller. It acted as a peripheral
to an 8080 based "host" -- a PLATO terminal with a waveform synthesizer
attached, along with that keyboard.
paul
Not a lot is said about early use of
microprocessors in industrial
microcomputers. Everything you read about is so home computing
oriented, but I believe actual sales would have been greater in the
industrial space
Do you count that 1-bit MC14500 dingus as a microprocessor? :) 
4:45 p.m.
On 03/09/2016 11:49 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
On 03/09/2016 09:28 AM, william degnan wrote:
I used to work at a glass plant back in the late 90's like 98-99 and
they used an Apple II to cut out as many peaces and or shapes out of 4X8
piece of glass it was a cool program they would just tell the Apple II,
how many peaces they needed what shapes oval, Square, Rectangle ETC. .
. it would calculate it out and cut as much of the order it could with
each slab of glass and add as many that could mathematically fit in the
8X4 sheet!
Not a lot is said about early use of
microprocessors in industrial
microcomputers. Everything you read about is so home computing
oriented,
but I believe actual sales would have been greater in the industrial
space
1974-77.
I compiled a quick thread on my site about the earliest use of
microprocessors in industrial microcomputers on my web site with
links to a
related article from EDN Microprocessor Design Series Volume II and
scans
of Process Computer Systems product brochures. PCS was a pioneer in
industrial micro-computing.
If anyone has info to share / correct please let me know and I will
add to
the thread.
http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=631
Allen-Bradley had a 16-bit mini they called the 7300 Industrial
Processor. They sold a lot of them in their 7320 (and 7340, 7360) CNC
machine tool controls. (I have one here.) See :
http://pico-systems.com/images/S_AB7320D.jpg
The row of red LEDs at the bottom of the pic is the front panel of the
7300 CPU. They had an industrial control bus that allowed you to
connect a wide variety of interface boards, like encoder counters,
DACs, digital inputs and outputs, etc. It used battery-backed DRAM,
and was made around 1978.
Jon
9:43 p.m.
On 03/09/2016 08:49 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
The row of red LEDs at the bottom of the pic is the
front panel of
the 7300 CPU. They had an industrial control bus that allowed you to
connect a wide variety of interface boards, like encoder counters,
DACs, digital inputs and outputs, etc. It used battery-backed DRAM,
and was made around 1978.
Much of the old Mitsubishi CNC gear uses battery-backed RAM via a
lead-acid storage battery "floated" on a supply. A tape or diskette
drive is used for loading it with parameters and software. Once read,
the floppy isn't used for regular operation.
We occasionally get a call from some guy who's just unloaded a hunk of
iron from the truck and realized that he doesn't have any software to
run it. Mitsubishi is usually of little help, and only offers to make a
heckuva deal on some new iron.
Another place that I've seen microprocessors hiding is in pipe organs.
I think the Ruffatti instrument at St. Mary's in San Francisco had, at
one time, a bunch of 8086 MPUs (memory is very fuzzy). I recall talking
to a fellow in town here who worked for John Brombaugh who was working
on bringing the design of his organs into the 20th century. Again, more
than 20 years ago and I haven't kept in touch.
--Chuck
10 Mar
10 Mar
12:45 a.m.
On 03/09/2016 08:43 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 03/09/2016 08:49 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
The A-B was loaded from paper tape. I didn't get the CNC
executive with it, just the CPU diagnostics.
I found a guy on the net who serviced these oldsters and
made a tape on one of his customer's machines.
I then had to write a disassembler and patch the code to
make it work on my specific setup. Mostly, I had to change
the encoder resolution. Lucky for me, it was only a 2:1
change. I quickly built a "BTR" (behind the reader)
interface to a laptop, and used it to download the executive
and then it drip-fed the CNC program a line at a time to the
A-B control.
When CPU power was off, the DRAM arrays were powered up 640
times a second and a complete refresh cycle was done, then
the DRAMS were powered off again. If you leaned close to
the memory power supply, you could hear the 640 Hz tone.
Jon
The row of red LEDs at the bottom of the pic is
the front
panel of
the 7300 CPU. They had an industrial control bus that
allowed you to
connect a wide variety of interface boards, like encoder
counters,
DACs, digital inputs and outputs, etc. It used
battery-backed DRAM,
and was made around 1978.
Much of the old Mitsubishi CNC gear uses battery-backed
RAM via a lead-acid storage battery "floated" on a
supply. A tape or diskette drive is used for loading it
with parameters and software. Once read, the floppy isn't
used for regular operation.
9 Mar
9 Mar
3:49 p.m.
On 2016-Mar-09, at 7:28 AM, william degnan wrote:
Not a lot is said about early use of microprocessors
in industrial
microcomputers. Everything you read about is so home computing oriented,
but I believe actual sales would have been greater in the industrial space
1974-77.
Yes, I'd agree, an overlooked area of tech. development.
Not limited to industrial micros, I always have my eye out for early (70s period) embedded
/ end-use / pre-home-computer applications of microprocs.
Only managed to find a couple pieces of equipment to date. It's the sort of stuff that
get's scrapped as it's not recognised or considered for what's inside.
I compiled a quick thread on my site about the
earliest use of
microprocessors in industrial microcomputers on my web site with links to a
related article from EDN Microprocessor Design Series Volume II and scans
of Process Computer Systems product brochures. PCS was a pioneer in
industrial micro-computing.
If anyone has info to share / correct please let me know and I will add to
the thread.
http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=631
Looks like a Fairchild F on the two ceramic LSI chips in the photo of the controller board
there.
I don't recall Fairchild as a 2nd source for the 8080 but I'm not sure.
Doesn't look to be the typical amount of support circuitry for an 8080 system on that
board.
Fairchild F8 system could be a possibility.
6:13 p.m.
---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: Re: Early Microprocessors in Industrial Microcomputers
From: "Brent Hilpert" <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca>
Date: Thu, March 10, 2016 6:49 am
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 2016-Mar-09, at 7:28 AM, william degnan wrote:
I'd go with Brent's suggestion too. The earlier F8 (3850 CPU) was a originally a
three chip system,
on the board shown it could possibly be a 3850 CPU at right, the 3851 PSU (Program Strage
Unit, it
held the Program Counter, some I/O ports and usually a 1k monitor) at bottom and the top
one could
conceivably be a 3853 SMI (Static Memory Interface).
My Fairchild/Mostek F8 Development Kit board is identical to the one shown on the F8 page
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairchild_F8 except it has the exact opposite packaging to
mine, ie
the 3851 (top in photo) is ceramic and my 3853 (lower left) and 3850 (lower right) are
plastic.
There doesn't look to be enough support logic for the 3855 Dynamic Memory Interface.
But, this is
all a guess :)
The F8 was used in traffic light controllers, washing machines (AFAIK) and surely a bunch
of other
industrial applications.
Steve.
Not a lot is said about early use of
microprocessors in industrial
microcomputers. Everything you read about is so home computing oriented,
but I believe actual sales would have been greater in the industrial space
1974-77.
Yes, I'd agree, an overlooked area of tech. development.
Not limited to industrial micros, I always have my eye out for early (70s period)
embedded / end-use / pre-home-computer applications of microprocs.
Only managed to find a couple pieces of equipment to date. It's the sort of stuff
that get's scrapped as it's not recognised or considered for what's inside.
I compiled a quick thread on my site about the
earliest use of
microprocessors in industrial microcomputers on my web site with links to a
related article from EDN Microprocessor Design Series Volume II and scans
of Process Computer Systems product brochures. PCS was a pioneer in
industrial micro-computing.
If anyone has info to share / correct please let me know and I will add to
the thread.
http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=631
Looks like a Fairchild F on the two ceramic LSI chips in the photo of the controller
board there.
I don't recall Fairchild as a 2nd source for the 8080 but I'm not sure.
Doesn't look to be the typical amount of support circuitry for an 8080 system on that
board.
Fairchild F8 system could be a possibility.
3006
days inactive
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days old
19 comments
11 participants
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billdegnan＠gmail.com -
cclist＠sydex.com -
Commodor64Killer＠mail.com -
elson＠pico-systems.com -
hilpert＠cs.ubc.ca -
jhfinedp3k＠compsys.to -
paulkoning＠comcast.net -
pete＠petelancashire.com -
phb.hfx＠gmail.com -
rdawson16＠hotmail.com -
steven＠malikoff.com