5 Jun
2009
5 Jun
'09
1:47 a.m.
So I got around to hooking some things up and seeing what works. I
have a quadra 700 with system 7.6 on it. I also had a 7 bay scsi
enclosure lying around, a couple scsi hard drives, and a slot loading
dvd drive.
My goal here is first to get the quadra on the network so I can share
files with it. Also, I'd like to be able to read CDs or DVDs from the
quadra. Once one of those is successful, I plan to use ADT to
transfer a prodos or apple 3.3 dos disk image to an apple 2gs over a
serial cable, then create a bootable floppy for my 2e. :-P lol.
It's looking like a fun project.
I should note that I have zero floppy disks for the mac or apple
2e/2gs. So this is sort of a fun boot-strapping project to see if I
can get there from here.
Much to my surprise, the quadra 700 detected the two scsi hard drives
and dvd drive. The quadra already had some scsi utilities and each of
the drives show up. One of them has a mount button, but it refuses to
mount a CD in the DVD drive. No surprise there I guess. Any idea how
I can get the machine to mount a CD or DVD? I might have a
termination problem. I have this black centronics thingy with the
apple logo on it. It sort of looks like a terminator, but you can
plug another centronics cable into the back of it, so I'm doubting
it's a terminator.
Networking doesn't seem to work. I get a light on the hub, but it
doesn't seem interested in letting me get to the network. The machine
has Timbuktu installed, but the open menu option is ghosted out. The
info menu option works, but nothing is listed on the networking tab.
I found this link: http://www.atpm.com/network/files/file_sharing.htm
The menu options they talk about are missing. I have some
applescript menu options somewhere else that talk about turning on
file sharing, but they don't work either. I'm thinking I might need
to reinstall the system software at some point. Any tips on how I can
get this machine on the network?
I suspect the floppy drive is bad. I put a new HD floppy in the
drive. It detects it as a 1.4meg floppy disk, but formatting doesn't
work. It claims the disk is bad. I have another drive in the IIfx
that I might try swapping in to see if I can get the floppy drive
working. I copied a dos file to the floppy as a test to see if I
could get the mac to read it. No luck. It wants to format the disk.
Any ideas on how I can be able to share floppies between the PC and
mac? I know the mac drives are a little odd.
fun stuff.
5 Jun
5 Jun
2:37 a.m.
My goal here is first to get the quadra on the network
so I can share
files with it. Also, I'd like to be able to read CDs or DVDs from the
quadra. Once one of those is successful, I plan to use ADT to
transfer a prodos or apple 3.3 dos disk image to an apple 2gs over a
serial cable, then create a bootable floppy for my 2e. :-P lol.
It's looking like a fun project.
I should note that I have zero floppy disks for the mac or apple
2e/2gs. So this is sort of a fun boot-strapping project to see if I
can get there from here.
Much to my surprise, the quadra 700 detected the two scsi hard drives
and dvd drive. The quadra already had some scsi utilities and each of
the drives show up. One of them has a mount button, but it refuses to
mount a CD in the DVD drive. No surprise there I guess. Any idea how
I can get the machine to mount a CD or DVD? I might have a
termination problem. I have this black centronics thingy with the
apple logo on it. It sort of looks like a terminator, but you can
plug another centronics cable into the back of it, so I'm doubting
it's a terminator.
Nope, that's a terminator, actually. The problem could be the file system,
but if it's Mac OS 7.6, it should understand ISO 9660 as long as the
standard extensions are there.
The other problem is the drive. 7.6 probably won't recognize the DVD-ROM,
and won't recognize many CD-ROMs unless they are Apple ROMmed or there are
appropriate drivers. I use Apple-branded CD-ROMs with all my systems.
Networking doesn't seem to work. I get a light on
the hub, but it
doesn't seem interested in letting me get to the network.
AppleTalk or TCP/IP? Do you have a MacTCP control panel? TCP/IP?
I suspect the floppy drive is bad. I put a new HD
floppy in the
drive. It detects it as a 1.4meg floppy disk, but formatting doesn't
work. It claims the disk is bad. I have another drive in the IIfx
that I might try swapping in to see if I can get the floppy drive
working. I copied a dos file to the floppy as a test to see if I
could get the mac to read it. No luck. It wants to format the disk.
Any ideas on how I can be able to share floppies between the PC and
mac? I know the mac drives are a little odd.
Check that you have the File Exchange control panel installed, but this
again should be a standard part of 7.6.
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-- Die, v.: To stop sinning suddenly. -- Elbert Hubbard -----------------------
2:42 a.m.
Check that you have the File Exchange control panel
installed, but this
again should be a standard part of 7.6.
PC Exchange even.
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-- Please dispose of this message in the usual manner. -- Mission: Impossible -
7:27 a.m.
I saw file exchange and pc exchange in there, but I couldn't manage to
make either of them work. I'll focus on them tonight.
On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 1:42 AM, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> wrote:
Check that you
have the File Exchange control panel installed, but this
again should be a standard part of 7.6.
PC Exchange even.
--
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-- Please dispose of this message in the usual manner. -- Mission: Impossible -
10:12 a.m.
On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> wrote:
tcp/ip. MacTCP looks like it's there, but again, it doesn't seem to
work. I'll send out an exact error message and a description of what
I'm doing tonight.
Nope, that's a terminator, actually. The problem
could be the file system,
but if it's Mac OS 7.6, it should understand ISO 9660 as long as the
standard extensions are there.
The other problem is the drive. 7.6 probably won't
recognize the DVD-ROM,
and won't recognize many CD-ROMs unless they are Apple ROMmed or there are
appropriate drivers. I use Apple-branded CD-ROMs with all my systems.
It's actually a copy of windows xp I had sitting in another machine.
So it should be ISO9660. Maybe the mac won't read it out of
principle. ;-)
I had originally planned to use this scsi box with my amiga which
isn't so hardware-picky. I've been wanting to get one of those
external apple-branded cdrom drives so maybe I should start shopping
for one of those.
Networking
doesn't seem to work. ?I get a light on the hub, but it
doesn't seem interested in letting me get to the network.
AppleTalk or TCP/IP? Do you have a MacTCP control panel? TCP/IP? Check that you have the File Exchange control panel
installed, but this
again should be a standard part of 7.6.
I'll play with that it more tonight.
brian
3:23 p.m.
Al Kossow wrote:
Brian Lanning wrote:
The XP CD is a standard ISO9660 format disk (possibly with Joliet
extensions, I don't recall.) At any rate, the Mac should be able to
read it.
(I'm not sure it's possible to put NTFS on a CD, that would be
interesting...)
Josh
It's actually a copy of windows xp I had
sitting in another machine.
So it should be ISO9660. Maybe the mac won't read it out of
principle. ;-)
Correct. The principle being MAC OS doesn't know anything about NTFS.
4:24 p.m.
Josh Dersch wrote:
(I'm not sure it's possible to put NTFS on a
CD, that would be
interesting...)
It should be possible -- in theory. Create an NTFS filesystem image on a Linux
box, then use cdrecord or wodim to write it to a CD-R.
If I get sufficiently bored later on, I might try it, but I doubt even an XP
box would be willing to read it...
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
6 Jun
6 Jun
2:03 a.m.
(I'm not
sure it's possible to put NTFS on a CD, that would be
interesting...)
It should be possible -- in theory. Create an NTFS filesystem image on a
Linux
box, then use cdrecord or wodim to write it to a CD-R.
If I get sufficiently bored later on, I might try it, but I doubt even an XP
box would be willing to read it...
7:07 p.m.
Cameron Kaiser wrote:
It certainly wouldn't boot from it, given that El
Torito virtually
mandates ISO 9660.
You could always put an NTFS FS in a file on an El Torito-formatted ISO9660
CD-ROM or DVD. So effectively you have:
[CDROM]
|
+--- ElTorito Boot image
| |
| +--- Bootloader that can read ISO9660 + NTFS (GRUB?)
|
+--- NTFS.VOL (NTFS image)
Though if you're not fussed that your CD is unbootable, treating it as a block
device and blatting it with a raw NTFS image is a valid, if kludgy, way of
dealing with it. Linux + ntfs3g would doubtless have no issues with block
sizes and so forth (CDs have a blocksize of 2048 or 2336 bytes, depending on
which Mode you're using). I do wonder if WinXP's NTFS loader can deal with
NTFS partitions on odd devices and with strange blocksizes...
Interestingly enough, this is (technically) on topic, because version 1.0 of
the El Torito spec was released on January 25th, 1995. I seriously didn't
think it was that old, though I should probably have guessed...
The overriding question is, of course, "WHY?!"
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
5 Jun
5 Jun
10:50 a.m.
I had originally planned to use this scsi box with my
amiga which
isn't so hardware-picky. I've been wanting to get one of those
external apple-branded cdrom drives so maybe I should start shopping
for one of those.
Yes, you should. It will solve a lot of problems.
Networking doesn't seem to work. _I get a light on
the hub, but it
doesn't seem interested in letting me get to the network.
AppleTalk or TCP/IP? Do you have a MacTCP control panel? TCP/IP? Check that you
have the File Exchange control panel installed, but this
again should be a standard part of 7.6.
I'll play with that it more tonight.
11:22 a.m.
On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 9:50 AM, Cameron Kaiser<spectre at floodgap.com> wrote:
I have the AAUI connector. I'm thinking it's working since I get a
light on the hub. I was able to switch it from appletalk to tcp/ip
and set it to dhcp, but it looks like it didn't even try to ask for an
ip address.
You mentioned in your message that PC/File Exchange were all installed.
When you select them from the Control Panels, no error?\
I tried 100 different things last night and can't remember the details
now. Some items weren't on the control panel at all. Others were
there, but would complain that the application necessary to run the
thing wasn't there. Others complained that they weren't installed
correctly. I'll post details tonight.
tcp/ip.
?MacTCP looks like it's there, but again, it doesn't seem to
work. ?I'll send out an exact error message and a description of what
I'm doing tonight.
You should see (the Q700 has built-in Ethernet IIRC) something like
LocalTalk and the built-in Ethernet. Select Ethernet in MacTCP, and click
More... if you want to adjust things like subnet mask and so on.
If you are using an ENet card in one of the NuBus slots, make sure you
have a driver for it. I would just use the built-in ENet; AAUI connectors
are dirt-cheap and common as, well, dirt. Check that you have the File Exchange control panel
installed, but this
again should be a standard part of 7.6.
I'll play with that it more tonight. Otherwise, yeah, I suspect the floppy drive. The
auto-inject drives are all
getting long in the tooth. A thorough cleaning would be a good start.
It's a little rickety. When I put the disk in, it doesn't drop onto
the spindle and engage entirely. I have to put a screwdriver and push
down on the disk (push to the right) to get the drive to notice the
disk. I blew it out with compressed air when I first got it, but it's
probably full of crud and probably has dirty heads.
brian
1:11 p.m.
You should see
(the Q700 has built-in Ethernet IIRC) something like
LocalTalk and the built-in Ethernet. Select Ethernet in MacTCP, and click
More... if you want to adjust things like subnet mask and so on.
If you are using an ENet card in one of the NuBus slots, make sure you
have a driver for it. I would just use the built-in ENet; AAUI connectors
are dirt-cheap and common as, well, dirt.
I have the AAUI connector. I'm thinking it's working since I get a
light on the hub. I was able to switch it from appletalk to tcp/ip
and set it to dhcp, but it looks like it didn't even try to ask for an
ip address.
1:15 p.m.
On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 12:11 PM, Cameron Kaiser<spectre at floodgap.com> wrote:
I've never used MacTCP for DHCP. Assign it a static address first and
see how far you get.
ok. I'm lost without a command line. Is there a version of ping in
there somewhere? What about samba/windows shares or maybe ftp?
brian
You should see (the Q700 has built-in Ethernet IIRC)
something like
LocalTalk and the built-in Ethernet. Select Ethernet in MacTCP, and click
More... if you want to adjust things like subnet mask and so on.
If you are using an ENet card in one of the NuBus slots, make sure you
have a driver for it. I would just use the built-in ENet; AAUI connectors
are dirt-cheap and common as, well, dirt.
I have the AAUI connector. I'm thinking it's working since I get a
light on the hub. ?I was able to switch it from appletalk to tcp/ip
and set it to dhcp, but it looks like it didn't even try to ask for an
ip address.
1:29 p.m.
I have the AAUI connector. I'm thinking it's
working since I get a
light on the hub. _I was able to switch it from appletalk to tcp/ip
and set it to dhcp, but it looks like it didn't even try to ask for an
ip address.
I've never used MacTCP for DHCP. Assign it a static address first and
see how far you get. from here which I believe is 68k:
gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/4/archive/info-mac/comm/inet/fetch-403.hqx
If not, try
gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/4/archive/userserve-ucsd-edu/Communications%20…
for 3.0.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Never refuse a breath mint. -- Daniel Handler ------------------------------
6 Jun
6 Jun
10:24 a.m.
2009/6/5 Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com>:
ok. ?I'm lost without a command line. ?Is there a version of ping in
there somewhere? ?What about samba/windows shares or maybe ftp?
You should be able to assign it a static address from the More... screen.
That doesn't work?
As far as Windows shares, I *think* there was something that would run on
7.6, but good luck finding it.
Not 100% sure if it ran on a version that old, but the 2 main
contenders were Thursby Software's DAVE and Connectix' DoubleTalk. As
luck would have it, I've been trying to give away a copy of DoubleTalk
on the LowEndMac swaps list for ages. Free for the cost of postage
I have the
AAUI connector. I'm thinking it's working since I get a
light on the hub. _I was able to switch it from appletalk to tcp/ip
and set it to dhcp, but it looks like it didn't even try to ask for an
ip address.
I've never used MacTCP for DHCP. Assign it a static address first and
see how far you get. from the UK. :?) </plug>
No idea if a demo of DAVE is still available anywhere... I believe the
makers are still around, selling tools to enhance ActiveDirectory
integration on Mac OS X.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508
5 Jun
5 Jun
10:29 a.m.
I should note that I have zero floppy disks for the
mac or apple
2e/2gs. So this is sort of a fun boot-strapping project to see if I
can get there from here.
There are utilities you can type (yes!) on an apple and transfer floppy
image files to disk. Lots of people do that for floppy creation when they
have nothing, and no apple user around. You just need a null-modem cable and
a serial board on the apple.
10:57 a.m.
On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 9:29 AM, Alexandre
Souza<alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br> wrote:
I found this thing called ADT that does what you describe. You point
it at a disk image on a mac or PC (if you have the right cable) and
type IN#2 on the 2e or 2gs, then it does what you describe. It looks
like it does a call-151 then types in a bunch of binary that
represents the entire OS. lol That's my goal. But I need ADT and 2e
disk images on the mac first.
I should note
that I have zero floppy disks for the mac or apple
2e/2gs. ?So this is sort of a fun boot-strapping project to see if I
can get there from here.
? There are utilities you can type (yes!) on an apple and transfer floppy
image files to disk. Lots of people do that for floppy creation when they
have nothing, and no apple user around. You just need a null-modem cable and
a serial board on the apple.
12:32 p.m.
I found this thing called ADT that does what you
describe. You point
it at a disk image on a mac or PC (if you have the right cable) and
type IN#2 on the 2e or 2gs, then it does what you describe. It looks
like it does a call-151 then types in a bunch of binary that
represents the entire OS. lol That's my goal. But I need ADT and 2e
disk images on the mac first.
Disk images are easy to spot by, and why not use a PC?
12:42 p.m.
On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 11:32 AM, Alexandre
Souza<alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br> wrote:
Can I write mac or apple 2gs floppies with a PC floppy drive? I don't
have the right serial cable to go from the PC right to the mac or 2gs,
but I know there's a version of ADT for the PC. And I wanted to get
the mac going anyway.
I found this
thing called ADT that does what you describe. ?You point
it at a disk image on a mac or PC (if you have the right cable) and
type IN#2 on the 2e or 2gs, then it does what you describe. ?It looks
like it does a call-151 then types in a bunch of binary that
represents the entire OS. ?lol ?That's my goal. ?But I need ADT and 2e
disk images on the mac first.
? Disk images are easy to spot by, and why not use a PC?
1:07 p.m.
Can I write mac or apple 2gs floppies with a PC floppy
drive?
If you have a raw disk image, sure. Only the original GCR disks cannot
be written that way, but the later MFM disks (of which the Q700 can most
definitely read) can be done with a PC from an image.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- require "std_disclaimer.pl"; -----------------------------------------------
1:13 p.m.
On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Cameron Kaiser<spectre at floodgap.com> wrote:
!!!
Got a link to some software to do this? Also, does it need to be
through the floppy disk controller or can I do this with a usb floppy
drive?
I was under the impression that mac floppy drives used some sort of
variable speed voodoo that made them incompatible with PCs.
brian
Can I write
mac or apple 2gs floppies with a PC floppy drive?
If you have a raw disk image, sure. Only the original GCR disks cannot
be written that way, but the later MFM disks (of which the Q700 can most
definitely read) can be done with a PC from an image.
1:22 p.m.
Can I write mac or apple 2gs floppies with a PC floppy
drive?
If you have a raw disk image, sure. Only the original GCR disks cannot
be written that way, but the later MFM disks (of which the Q700 can most
definitely read) can be done with a PC from an image. through the floppy disk controller or can I do this
with a usb floppy
drive?
Depends on the program. I've only ever done this with an internal FDC
drive but I don't see a reason why an external USB wouldn't work.
I was under the impression that mac floppy drives used
some sort of
variable speed voodoo that made them incompatible with PCs.
Not the (more) current MFM disks. The original GCR disks above do indeed
use a variable speed system and cannot be written by conventional PC drives.
However, the later MFM disks and "SuperDrives" (not to be confused with
Apple's contemporary use of the term) are bog standard except for the HFS.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- When in doubt, take a pawn. -- Mission: Impossible ("Crack-Up") ------------
1:48 p.m.
On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Cameron Kaiser<spectre at floodgap.com> wrote:
!!!
Got a link to some software to do this?
Well, rawrite, anything like that :)
Thanks. I'll try all that out tonight as well.
Can I write
mac or apple 2gs floppies with a PC floppy drive?
If you have a raw disk image, sure. Only the original GCR disks cannot
be written that way, but the later MFM disks (of which the Q700 can most
definitely read) can be done with a PC from an image. through the floppy disk controller or can I do
this with a usb floppy
drive?
Depends on the program. I've only ever done this with an internal FDC
drive but I don't see a reason why an external USB wouldn't work.
I was under the impression that mac floppy drives
used some sort of
variable speed voodoo that made them incompatible with PCs.
Not the (more) current MFM disks. The original GCR disks above do indeed
use a variable speed system and cannot be written by conventional PC drives.
However, the later MFM disks and "SuperDrives" (not to be confused with
Apple's contemporary use of the term) are bog standard except for the HFS.
11:55 p.m.
Here's what I see:
Control Panels -> TCP/IP (AOL)
This works. Is set it to ethernet and manually and plugged in good values.
Control Panels -> Appletalk
I set it to ethernet. It says "current zone: no zones available"
Control Panels -> Apple Remote Access
not setup correctly. please install from the disk and try again.
I found file sharing and turned it on.
I'm unable to ping the quadra from another machine on the network,
but I do get a light on the hub.
Apple file exchange works, but neither floppy drive that I have works.
Writing apple disk images from a usb floppy appears to not work. I
have another machine I plan to get going this weekend that has a
floppy drive and a real disk controller. I'll try it from there.
And to make matters worse, I noticed that there was an 8.1
installation in a separate system folder. I found the system folder
picker and switched it to the 8.1 folder. Now the machine won't boot.
I just get the happy face. Is there some bootup key combination that
can undo this?
brian
6 Jun
6 Jun
2:09 a.m.
Control Panels -> TCP/IP (AOL)
This works. Is set it to ethernet and manually and plugged in good values.
This is where installing something like WhatRoute or NCSA Telnet would
be helpful.
Control Panels -> Appletalk
I set it to ethernet. It says "current zone: no zones available"
Not surprising if you have no other AppleTalk hosts on the network. (It
would need to be old-style EtherTalk, at that.)
I found file sharing and turned it on.
This only works for AppleTalk hosts, at least for 7.6.
And to make matters worse, I noticed that there was an
8.1
installation in a separate system folder. I found the system folder
picker and switched it to the 8.1 folder. Now the machine won't boot.
I just get the happy face. Is there some bootup key combination that
can undo this?
You could try zapping PRAM (Cmd-Opt-P-R as the machine starts up; let it
chime a couple times with the keys held down) but this may not help as the
bogus System Folder will still be blessed. A sure fix would be to boot
from a valid secondary device, but with a bum floppy
drive you're really
hosed.
I'm suspecting the Mac you have was messed up by its previous owner -- a
lot of these errors would be inexplicable with normal use. A full reinstall
of 7.6 or 8.1 from an external CD-ROM would be strongly advised.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- So what's my point? I don't know, it's fun to talk about. -- Judy
Blackburn
3:13 p.m.
On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 1:09 AM, Cameron Kaiser<spectre at floodgap.com> wrote:
You could try zapping PRAM (Cmd-Opt-P-R as the machine
starts up; let it
chime a couple times with the keys held down) but this may not help as the
bogus System Folder will still be blessed. A sure fix would be to boot
from a valid secondary device, but with a bum floppy drive you're really
hosed.
I'll try this tonight.
I'm suspecting the Mac you have was messed up by
its previous owner -- a
lot of these errors would be inexplicable with normal use. A full reinstall
of 7.6 or 8.1 from an external CD-ROM would be strongly advised.
An apple CDROM drive, like the 300 or 600 is on the shopping list.
Any ideas where I can get a OS image I can burn from vista?
Also, which version would be best on a quadra 700? I've heard that
7.6 was best for performance, but I care less about performance and
more about functionality. Is there an advantage to upgrading to 8.1?
The scsi hard drive that's in there now is a smaller capacity, but
it's half-height, slightly too big for the case. The top latches in
place, but you have to bend it slightly to do that. I have a 1gig
scsi drive(1" high, quantum iirc) from an amiga that I can use
instead. If I'm going to reinstall the OS, maybe I should go that
route. Anything I should consider before trying to do that?
Does anyone make a scsi floppy drive that I could put in my external
enclosure? Do these even exist? What about zip/jaz/syquest drives?
Is it possible to install 7.6 or 8.1, then pull the hard drive and
attach it to a PC, mount the mac parition, and copy a large number of
disk images over? I have a PCI adaptec scsi controller floating
around somwhere. What about booting from an ubuntu CD?
Another angle is the adaptec scsi disk in a PC, copy files over, mount
the disk on a mac. I have another 100gig disk I could use for this.
Are there any non-mac file systems that the mac can mount, like maybe
fat32?
Also, where can I buy two new/refurb mac floppy drives?
thanks
brian
5:01 p.m.
On Sat, 6 Jun 2009, Brian Lanning wrote:
Does anyone make a scsi floppy drive that I could put
in my external
enclosure? Do these even exist? What about zip/jaz/syquest drives?
"Floptical" drives
The one that I was using was SCSI and did 20M floptical, and did 1.4M
floppy.
External SCSI ZIP drives were readily available.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
5:56 p.m.
On 6 Jun 2009 at 14:01, Fred Cisin wrote:
"Floptical" drives
The one that I was using was SCSI and did 20M floptical, and did 1.4M
floppy.
External SCSI ZIP drives were readily available.
I think I still have a 20MB Tulin 3.5" drive around somewhere. And
there's always the Imation Superdrive available in SCSI.
In conventional floppies, Teac offered the FD-235HS 3.5" in SCSI.
And there were makers (Xebec, OMTI) of SCSI-to-floppy bridge cards.
SCSI floppies are fine as long as you don't need to get "creative"
with sector sizing and ID marks. Remember that SCSI is essentially a
relative-block type of protocol, so you can forget about reading
those Microsoft DMF floppies.
--Chuck
7 Jun
7 Jun
8:12 p.m.
2009/6/6 Brian Lanning <brianlanning at gmail.com>:
On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 1:09 AM, Cameron
Kaiser<spectre at floodgap.com> wrote:
Erm. I already answered some of these questions. If you'd like to
reply to my message from yesterday, pointing out which bits I've not
addressed, I'll see what I can tell you.
If you're prepared to pay shipping from the UK, I'll post a Mac floppy
drive or two for free. Same for a couple of smallish Mac SCSI hard
disks.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508
You could try zapping PRAM (Cmd-Opt-P-R as the
machine starts up; let it
chime a couple times with the keys held down) but this may not help as the
bogus System Folder will still be blessed. A sure fix would be to boot
from a valid secondary device, but with a bum floppy drive you're really
hosed.
I'll try this tonight.
I'm suspecting the Mac you have was messed up
by its previous owner -- a
lot of these errors would be inexplicable with normal use. A full reinstall
of 7.6 or 8.1 from an external CD-ROM would be strongly advised.
An apple CDROM drive, like the 300 or 600 is on the shopping list.
Any ideas where I can get a OS image I can burn from vista?
Also, which version would be best on a quadra 700? ?I've heard that
7.6 was best for performance, but I care less about performance and
more about functionality. ?Is there an advantage to upgrading to 8.1?
The scsi hard drive that's in there now is a smaller capacity, but
it's half-height, slightly too big for the case. ?The top latches in
place, but you have to bend it slightly to do that. ?I have a 1gig
scsi drive(1" high, quantum iirc) ?from an amiga that I can use
instead. ?If I'm going to reinstall the OS, maybe I should go that
route. ?Anything I should consider before trying to do that?
Does anyone make a scsi floppy drive that I could put in my external
enclosure? ?Do these even exist? ?What about zip/jaz/syquest drives?
Is it possible to install 7.6 or 8.1, then pull the hard drive and
attach it to a PC, mount the mac parition, and copy a large number of
disk images over? ?I have a PCI adaptec scsi controller floating
around somwhere. ?What about booting from an ubuntu CD?
Another angle is the adaptec scsi disk in a PC, copy files over, mount
the disk on a mac. ?I have another 100gig disk I could use for this.
Are there any non-mac file systems that the mac can mount, like maybe
fat32?
Also, where can I buy two new/refurb mac floppy drives?
thanks
brian
6:04 p.m.
On 5 Jun 2009 at 12:46, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
Depends on the length of the "group"...
But no, I've never seen one.
--Chuck
Depends on the program. I've only ever done
this with an internal
FDC drive but I don't see a reason why an external USB wouldn't
work.
Has anybody ever seen a USB drive that can do GCR?
6 Jun
6 Jun
2:04 a.m.
Depends on the
program. I've only ever done this with an internal FDC
drive but I don't see a reason why an external USB wouldn't work.
Has anybody ever seen a USB drive that can do GCR? 
5 Jun
5 Jun
1:23 p.m.
On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 1:13 PM, Brian Lanning <brianlanning at gmail.com> wrote:
I was under the impression that mac floppy drives used
some sort of
variable speed voodoo that made them incompatible with PCs.
400K/800K have variable numbers of sectors per track. That was done
in the original single-sided drives (400K only) by varying the drive
speed. Since I don't remember hearing double-sided drives change
pitch, they must have done it the way Commodore did with their 5.25"
floppies (starting with the CBM 2040 in the late 1970s), by changing
the bit clock in software (the CBM drives have a "divide-by-N" 16-pin
TTL counter chip, but the lower two bits of "N" are attached to a
6522, so the firmware gets to decide (track by track) to divide the
clock by 12, 13, 14, or 15. In Macs, that functionality is built into
the IWM (Integrated Woz Machine) AFAIK).
Later Macs can read/write PC-compatible floppies, so there must be a
way to select a bit-clock-divider that is compatible with PC-formatted
media. The rest is all software.
-ethan
6 p.m.
Ethan Dicks wrote:
400K/800K have variable numbers of sectors per track.
That was done
in the original single-sided drives (400K only) by varying the drive
speed. Since I don't remember hearing double-sided drives change
pitch, they must have done it the way Commodore did with their 5.25"
floppies (starting with the CBM 2040 in the late 1970s), by changing
the bit clock in software (the CBM drives have a "divide-by-N" 16-pin
TTL counter chip, but the lower two bits of "N" are attached to a
6522, so the firmware gets to decide (track by track) to divide the
clock by 12, 13, 14, or 15. In Macs, that functionality is built into
the IWM (Integrated Woz Machine) AFAIK).
No, the Apple 800K drives varied the spindle motor speed also. They
were quieter, so it is less obvious.
Later Macs can read/write PC-compatible floppies, so
there must be a
way to select a bit-clock-divider that is compatible with PC-formatted
media. The rest is all software.
The Apple "SuperDrive"/FDHD floppy drives that supported 720K/1440K
MFM
format in addition to 400K/800K GCR format used variable motor speed for
GCR, and fixed for MFM.
Eric
3:44 p.m.
On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, Brian Lanning wrote:
I was under the impression that mac floppy drives used
some sort of
variable speed voodoo that made them incompatible with PCs.
The drive rotational speed is NOT the problem.
The Central Point Option Board 2 can read and write 400k/800K disks. All
that is needed to deal with the rotational speed is to vary the data
transfer rate to compensate.
The issue that needs to be dealt with is that no 765 style disk
controller, nor even WD 17** style disk controller can read nor write GCR.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
3:41 p.m.
On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, Brian Lanning wrote:
Can I write mac or apple 2gs floppies with a PC floppy
drive?
NO.
exceptions: you CAN write Mac 1.4M disks. but NOT Apple 2 5.25", nor Mac
400K/800K
the DRIVE is not the limitation. the disk controller is the
limitation. There exist special add-on boards for the PC that permit
reading and writing GCR. Although MicroSolutions did make some, the
Compaticard is NOT the answer.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
10:17 p.m.
Can I write mac or apple 2gs floppies with a PC floppy drive? I don't
have the right serial cable to go from the PC right to the mac or 2gs,
but I know there's a version of ADT for the PC. And I wanted to get
the mac going anyway.
======================
No, you can't. But you can make (or buy) the cable to connect the pc to
the 2gs
(humpf, I never saw a 2GS near me :P This is the only apple I never
could afford :oP)
:oD
6 Jun
6 Jun
10:42 a.m.
2009/6/5 Brian Lanning <brianlanning at gmail.com>:
So I got around to hooking some things up and seeing
what works. ?I
have a quadra 700 with system 7.6 on it. ?I also had a 7 bay scsi
enclosure lying around, a couple scsi hard drives, and a slot loading
dvd drive.
My goal here is first to get the quadra on the network so I can share
files with it. ?Also, I'd like to be able to read CDs or DVDs from the
quadra. ?Once one of those is successful, I plan to use ADT to
transfer a prodos or apple 3.3 dos disk image to an apple 2gs over a
serial cable, then create a bootable floppy for my 2e. ?:-P ? lol.
It's looking like a fun project.
I should note that I have zero floppy disks for the mac or apple
2e/2gs. ?So this is sort of a fun boot-strapping project to see if I
can get there from here.
Much to my surprise, the quadra 700 detected the two scsi hard drives
and dvd drive. ?The quadra already had some scsi utilities and each of
the drives show up. ?One of them has a mount button, but it refuses to
mount a CD in the DVD drive. ?No surprise there I guess. ?Any idea how
I can get the machine to mount a CD or DVD? ?I might have a
termination problem. ?I have this black centronics thingy with the
apple logo on it. ?It sort of looks like a terminator, but you can
plug another centronics cable into the back of it, so I'm doubting
it's a terminator.
Networking doesn't seem to work. ?I get a light on the hub, but it
doesn't seem interested in letting me get to the network. ?The machine
has Timbuktu installed, but the open menu option is ghosted out. ?The
info menu option works, but nothing is listed on the networking tab.
I found this link: ?http://www.atpm.com/network/files/file_sharing.htm
?The menu options they talk about are missing. ?I have some
applescript menu options somewhere else that talk about turning on
file sharing, but they don't work either. ?I'm thinking I might need
to reinstall the system software at some point. ?Any tips on how I can
get this machine on the network?
I suspect the floppy drive is bad. ?I put a new HD floppy in the
drive. ?It detects it as a 1.4meg floppy disk, but formatting doesn't
work. ?It claims the disk is bad. ?I have another drive in the IIfx
that I might try swapping in to see if I can get the floppy drive
working. ?I copied a dos file to the floppy as a test to see if I
could get the mac to read it. ?No luck. ?It wants to format the disk.
Any ideas on how I can be able to share floppies between the PC and
mac? ?I know the mac drives are a little odd.
fun stuff.
Quadra 700 - so it's a 25MHz 68040. How much RAM has it got?
http://lowendmac.com/quadra/quadra-700.html
I'd strongly suggest, as others have observed, wiping it & installing
MacOS 8.1. It's got much better TCP/IP handling and also better
handling of alien disk formats. You might even have a chance of
recognising and handling a DVD, though I wouldn't put money on it.
A bit more info as to why:
http://lowendmac.com/sable/06/0911.html
8.1 boot CDs are rare. It's easier to get a copy of 8.0 and download
and install the free 8.1 update, which Apple still offers.
If you're really stuck, I might be able to find a spare CD of 8.0
somewhere for you.
It'll still require 3rd party tools to talk to a Windows network,
though. If you have NT Server, though, it has a Mac file-sharing mode,
even back in NT3. That will work fine.
To access a non-Apple optical drive, you either need a 3rd party
driver or a hacked version of the Apple driver.There's a guide here:
http://www.kan.org/6100/cd.html
& a little more here:
http://macfaq.org/hardware/media.shtml
For 3rd party hard disks, you also need a 3rd party tool, although
it's not a driver as such - it's just a partitioner/formatter.
(Technically, it embeds the driver into the partition structure of the
drive, so the MacOS automatically loads it the 1st time that it sees
the drive. This is transparent - you can even boot off such a drive.)
I use SilverLining but there's also a LaCie tool and various others -
most vendors of 3rd party SCSI hard disks offered them.
In my experience, reading non-Mac CDs on Classic MacOS is very iffy,
especially if they're home-burned ones. I've never found an adequate
way around this. It's /supposed/ to work but often won't.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508
12:50 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Liam Proven" <lproven at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 10:42 AM
Subject: Re: Classic mac fun (and some questions)
OS 7.1 is fast and with Opentransport 1.1.1 and 1.1.2 update (both available
on Apples website) you have DHCP for networking.
If you have plenty of RAM and want to have greater then 2GB bootable
partitions then OS 8.1 is the way to go. OS 7.6.1 can do 2GB for boot drives
and larger for extra drives.
7 Jun
7 Jun
9:25 p.m.
Sorry, I didn't see this email until today. Gmail has a tendency to
stack things up and hide them from me.
Quadra 700 - so it's a 25MHz 68040. How much RAM
has it got?
I can't check now since it's hosed. But I believe it's 4megs.
There's 4 simms in there I know.
I'd strongly suggest, as others have observed,
wiping it & installing
MacOS 8.1. It's got much better TCP/IP handling and also better
handling of alien disk formats. You might even have a chance of
recognising and handling a DVD, though I wouldn't put money on it.
A bit more info as to why:
http://lowendmac.com/sable/06/0911.html
8.1 boot CDs are rare. It's easier to get a copy of 8.0 and download
and install the free 8.1 update, which Apple still offers.
If you're really stuck, I might be able to find a spare CD of 8.0
somewhere for you.
I've ordered a 600e cdrom drive and also one auto-inject floppy drive,
but i need one for the IIfx also. Still can't find an 8.0 cd. What
would it cost to send a floppy drive and the 8.0 cd? Also, do you
have some VRAM simms that you would be willing to part with?
It'll still require 3rd party tools to talk to a
Windows network,
though. If you have NT Server, though, it has a Mac file-sharing mode,
even back in NT3. That will work fine.
Once floppies are working, that should be straight-forward.
For 3rd party hard disks, you also need a 3rd party
tool, although
it's not a driver as such - it's just a partitioner/formatter.
(Technically, it embeds the driver into the partition structure of the
drive, so the MacOS automatically loads it the 1st time that it sees
the drive. This is transparent - you can even boot off such a drive.)
I use SilverLining but there's also a LaCie tool and various others -
most vendors of 3rd party SCSI hard disks offered them.
There are three or four of these sorts of things on the machine
already. When I put the new disk in, I'll put the old one in the
external box and pull the software off.
In my experience, reading non-Mac CDs on Classic MacOS
is very iffy,
especially if they're home-burned ones. I've never found an adequate
way around this. It's /supposed/ to work but often won't.
I'll tinker. Once it's on the network, even with just ftp, I won't
really need to read CDs anymore, although it would certainly make
things easier.
brian
10:41 p.m.
Quadra 700 -
so it's a 25MHz 68040. How much RAM has it got?
I can't check now since it's hosed. But I believe it's 4megs.
There's 4 simms in there I know.
10:47 p.m.
On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 9:41 PM, Cameron Kaiser<spectre at floodgap.com> wrote:
For 8.1 you will need much more than 4MB -- 4MB would run 7.1 comfortably
but 7.6 is going to be unhappy and 8.1 will probably not even start (that
might have been the problem you had). Definitely verify total RAM. I wouldn't
attempt 8.1 with anything less than 16MB of RAM, and even that is going to
be somewhat painful. Try for 32MB.
I could easily be wrong. It might be 4 4s instead of 4 1s.
brian
Quadra 700 - so it's a 25MHz 68040. How much RAM
has it got?
I can't check now since it's hosed. ?But I believe it's 4megs.
There's 4 simms in there I know.
11:09 p.m.
I could easily be wrong. It might be 4 4s instead of
4 1s.
That does seem more likely for 7.6. Even that will be tight for 8.1,
however. It should start, but it will be tight.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Art is either plagiarism or revolution. -- Paul Gauguin --------------------
5518
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45 comments
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participants (12)
-
aek＠bitsavers.org -
alexandre-listas＠e-secure.com.br -
brianlanning＠gmail.com -
cclist＠sydex.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
classiccmp＠philpem.me.uk -
derschjo＠mail.msu.edu -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
lproven＠gmail.com -
spectre＠floodgap.com -
teoz＠neo.rr.com