12 Apr
2000
12 Apr
'00
9:52 a.m.
Hi,
I want to start scanning some of the transputer books and manuals that I
have. A lot if not all are out-of-print. If I scan them and put them on
the net, do I have to worry about copyright laws, etc. Would I get into any
trouble?? What is the current policy on this?? I know several of you guys
scanned several books/documentation/manuals etc for various machines. Any
help in this would be appreciated. Oh, what about old software too.
Thanks.
Ram
12 Apr
12 Apr
10:15 a.m.
On Wed, 12 Apr 2000, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote:
I want to start scanning some of the transputer books
and manuals that I
have. A lot if not all are out-of-print. If I scan them and put them on
the net, do I have to worry about copyright laws, etc. Would I get into any
trouble?? What is the current policy on this?? I know several of you guys
scanned several books/documentation/manuals etc for various machines. Any
help in this would be appreciated. Oh, what about old software too.
Whether it's out of print or not, if it's copyrighted, you need permission
from the copyright holder before you do this. Even if
the company that
registered the copyright is out of business - if the company's
assets were
liquidated, the copyright was transferred to someone.
So, you need to locate the copyright holder(s) and get permission. The
hardest part (especially for old stuff) might be finding the copyright
holder. Find them, and get them to send you permission (in writing, if at
all possible) before you put their docs up on the web. You could very
well find them to be receptive to your request.
One exception seems to be DEC/Compaq, as they apparently gave blanket
permission to reproduce documentation for out-of-production hardware.
Don't know what Compaq's current stand on this is, though ...
--Pat.
11:19 a.m.
New subject: DEC blanket permission was: Re: Scanning out-of-print books and documentation
One exception seems to be DEC/Compaq, as they
apparently gave blanket
permission to reproduce documentation for out-of-production hardware.
Don't know what Compaq's current stand on this is, though ...
I'm curious about the extent of this blanket permission. I have a number of
very interesting DEC documents for out-of-production hardware. For example,
I see continuous discussion of initializing the CPU of the VAXstation 4000/VLC
over on the NetBSD port-vax mailing list. I happen to have a copy of the
technical manual for the SOC CPU, the processor used in the 4000/VLC.
Somehow, I doubt this manual is covered by the DEC blanket permission.
One document that I'm fairly certain is not covered by the blanket permission
is a copy of the MSCP specification (!) that I have tucked away in a drawer
somewhere. Is DEC still making MSCP hardware? Everything I've used
recently has been SCSI.
--
Roger Ivie
rivie(a)teraglobal.com
Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation
11:45 a.m.
New subject: DEC blanket permission was: Re: Scanning out-of-print books and documentation
On Wed, 12 Apr 2000, Roger Ivie wrote:
One document that I'm fairly certain is not covered by the blanket permission
is a copy of the MSCP specification (!) that I have tucked away in a drawer
somewhere. Is DEC still making MSCP hardware? Everything I've used
recently has been SCSI.
This is from John Wilson's FTP site, at
ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/pdp8/doc/README:
---------------------------------------------------------
From the January 1985 Software Documentation Products
Directory (EJ-26361-78),
first page:
3. RIGHT TO COPY
Beginning January 1, 1985, Digital customers are given a right to copy, at
no charge, any Digital Archival Software Documentation Publication
(excluding restricted or third party owned) that we no longer offer for
sale. However, the copyright is retained as the exclusive property of
Digital Equipment Corporation.
--------------------------------------------------------
I'm pretty sure the MSCP spec would have fallen under "restricted" ...
--Pat.
12:24 p.m.
New subject: DEC blanket permission was: Re: Scanning out-of-print books and documentation
3. RIGHT TO COPY
Beginning January 1, 1985, Digital customers are given a right to copy, at
no charge, any Digital Archival Software Documentation Publication
(excluding restricted or third party owned) that we no longer offer for
sale. However, the copyright is retained as the exclusive property of
Digital Equipment Corporation.
--------------------------------------------------------
I'm pretty sure the MSCP spec would have fallen under "restricted" ...
It also answers the SOC CPU spec, as that's not software documentation.
--
Roger Ivie
rivie(a)teraglobal.com
Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation
12:01 p.m.
New subject: DEC blanket permission was: Re: Scanning out-of-print books and documentation
Actually I wouldn't be suprised if both were covered. The VLC manual
because DEC/Compaq has end-of-lifed the VAX and there will be no more, and
the MSCP manual because DEC/Compaq continues to hold the patent on the
implementation and anyone attempting to use the information to build MSCP
systems would be subject to the patent restrictions anyway.
--Chuck
P.S. Even if you don't want to go to the trouble to scan them and/or upload
them I would be interested in making a copy for my own use. Contact me
off-list if that's possible.
At 10:19 AM 4/12/00 -0600, you wrote:
One exception
seems to be DEC/Compaq, as they apparently gave blanket
permission to reproduce documentation for out-of-production hardware.
Don't know what Compaq's current stand on this is, though ...
I'm curious about the extent of this blanket permission. I have a number of
very interesting DEC documents for out-of-production hardware. For example,
I see continuous discussion of initializing the CPU of the VAXstation 4000/VLC
over on the NetBSD port-vax mailing list. I happen to have a copy of the
technical manual for the SOC CPU, the processor used in the 4000/VLC.
Somehow, I doubt this manual is covered by the DEC blanket permission.
One document that I'm fairly certain is not covered by the blanket permission
is a copy of the MSCP specification (!) that I have tucked away in a drawer
somewhere. Is DEC still making MSCP hardware? Everything I've used
recently has been SCSI.
--
Roger Ivie
rivie(a)teraglobal.com
Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation 
5:11 p.m.
New subject: DEC blanket permission was: Re: Scanning out-of-print books and documentation
On Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 10:01:46AM -0700, Chuck McManis wrote:
Actually I wouldn't be suprised if both were
covered. The VLC manual
because DEC/Compaq has end-of-lifed the VAX and there will be no more, and
the MSCP manual because DEC/Compaq continues to hold the patent on the
implementation and anyone attempting to use the information to build MSCP
systems would be subject to the patent restrictions anyway.
Unless I seriously misunderstand things, the MSCP patent is not long for
this world anyway, since its 17th birthday is 13 months away (and that's for
the re-examined patent, the original is older so if the 17 years actually
starts *then*, it's already expired). And the patent text itself contains at
least *some* amount of description of how it works (although it's definitely
not intended to be useful to programmers), including a listing of a really
ancient VMS DU: driver. It's certainly OK to copy that text, that's what
patents are for.
I've never seen any blanket permission for copying obsolete DEC hardware
docs, only the software thing that was in the software doc catalog.
John Wilson
D Bit
10:22 a.m.
On Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 10:52:16AM -0400, Ram Meenakshisundaram (rmeenaks(a)olf.com) wrote:
Hi,
I want to start scanning some of the transputer books and manuals that I
have. A lot if not all are out-of-print. If I scan them and put them on
the net, do I have to worry about copyright laws, etc. Would I get into any
trouble?? What is the current policy on this??
Depends very much on where you are. If you're in a country that
respects the Berne Convention (which most Western nations do), then
you need to get permission from the copyright holder, or wait until
the document becomes public domain.
Keep in mind that absence of a copyright notice doesn't mean absence
of copyright.
There's an American "Copyright Crash Course" at
http://www.utsystem.edu/OGC/IntellectualProperty/cprtindx.htm
which is educational and entertaining, and the Copyright Myths FAQ is
a mustread, too, at
http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html
I know several of you guys scanned several
books/documentation/manuals etc for various machines. Any help in
this would be appreciated. Oh, what about old software too.
Software is also intellectual property, and this is copyrighted as
well.
(Disclaimers: I am not a lawyer, and I am not American.)
-Rich
--
------------------------------ Rich Lafferty ---------------------------
Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services
Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625
------------------------- rich(a)alcor.concordia.ca ----------------------
10:41 a.m.
Generally, if the publisher of the book or manual is still in business, they
still own the copyright for the next 80 or so years. They tend to get upset
if you redistribute it free of charge.
However, if the book hasn't been published in quite a long time, the
publisher won't care quite as much (I.E. it's hard to prove damages in court
if you haven't published the book in question for 10 years, especially for
outdated hardware) Check the publisher's website, amazon.com, fatbrain.com,
etc... to see if it still in print or available. Better yet ask the
publisher if you can redistribute it. I've seen many websites with
reproduced instruction cards and owner's manuals with consent of the
publisher. Just make sure all the (TM)s and (R)s are in the right places.
Good luck.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ram Meenakshisundaram" <rmeenaks(a)olf.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 10:52 AM
Subject: Scanning out-of-print books and documentation
Hi,
I want to start scanning some of the transputer books and manuals that I
have. A lot if not all are out-of-print. If I scan them and put them on
the net, do I have to worry about copyright laws, etc. Would I get into
any
trouble?? What is the current policy on this?? I
know several of you
guys
scanned several books/documentation/manuals etc for
various machines. Any
help in this would be appreciated. Oh, what about old software too.
Thanks.
Ram
4:49 p.m.
Jason has hit hit the nail directly with the hammer--DAMAGES are
the germane point. I'd guess you could go ahead and put almost anything,
copyrighted or no up on the web. In the unlikely event that the
copyright holder ever becomes aware of your infringement---probably the
worse case would be a cease and desist letter requiring you to take it
down. Very difficult if not impossible for them to prove damages--if the
work is long out of print there would be NO damages to prove anyway.
NB: Free legal advice is worth exactly what you paid for it!
Craig
Jason McBrien wrote:
Generally, if the publisher of the book or manual is still in business, they
still own the copyright for the next 80 or so years. They tend to get upset
if you redistribute it free of charge.
However, if the book hasn't been published in quite a long time, the
publisher won't care quite as much (I.E. it's hard to prove damages in court
if you haven't published the book in question for 10 years, especially for
outdated hardware) Check the publisher's website, amazon.com, fatbrain.com,
etc... to see if it still in print or available. Better yet ask the
publisher if you can redistribute it. I've seen many websites with
reproduced instruction cards and owner's manuals with consent of the
publisher. Just make sure all the (TM)s and (R)s are in the right places.
Good luck.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ram Meenakshisundaram" <rmeenaks(a)olf.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 10:52 AM
Subject: Scanning out-of-print books and documentation
Hi,
I want to start scanning some of the transputer books and manuals that I
have. A lot if not all are out-of-print. If I scan them and put them on
the net, do I have to worry about copyright laws, etc. Would I get into
any
trouble?? What is the current policy on this??
I know several of you
guys
> scanned several books/documentation/manuals etc for various machines. Any
> help in this would be appreciated. Oh, what about old software too.
> Thanks.
>
> Ram
>
> 
5:28 p.m.
its been a couple years since I looked into copyright penalties, but if
i recall correctly there is a fairly large cash penalty for violating
copyright, and you can either chose that penalty OR seek actual damages
if you can prove greater than the fixed amount in damages.
-Lawrence LeMay
Jason has hit hit the nail directly with the
hammer--DAMAGES are
the germane point. I'd guess you could go ahead and put almost anything,
copyrighted or no up on the web. In the unlikely event that the
copyright holder ever becomes aware of your infringement---probably the
worse case would be a cease and desist letter requiring you to take it
down. Very difficult if not impossible for them to prove damages--if the
work is long out of print there would be NO damages to prove anyway.
NB: Free legal advice is worth exactly what you paid for it!
Craig
Jason McBrien wrote:
Generally, if the publisher of the book or manual is still in business, they
still own the copyright for the next 80 or so years. They tend to get upset
if you redistribute it free of charge.
However, if the book hasn't been published in quite a long time, the
publisher won't care quite as much (I.E. it's hard to prove damages in court
if you haven't published the book in question for 10 years, especially for
outdated hardware) Check the publisher's website, amazon.com, fatbrain.com,
etc... to see if it still in print or available. Better yet ask the
publisher if you can redistribute it. I've seen many websites with
reproduced instruction cards and owner's manuals with consent of the
publisher. Just make sure all the (TM)s and (R)s are in the right places.
Good luck.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ram Meenakshisundaram" <rmeenaks(a)olf.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 10:52 AM
Subject: Scanning out-of-print books and documentation
Hi,
I want to start scanning some of the transputer books and manuals that I
have. A lot if not all are out-of-print. If I scan them and put them on
the net, do I have to worry about copyright laws, etc. Would I get into
any
trouble?? What is the current policy on this??
I know several of you
guys
> scanned several books/documentation/manuals etc for various machines. Any
> help in this would be appreciated. Oh, what about old software too.
> Thanks.
>
> Ram
>
> 
5:58 p.m.
Maybe a petition to Compaq, asking them to treat hardware docs with the same
rules that that apply to software, is in order ?
A lot of people on this list would be willing to endorse it and maybe
there is a law-knowledgable person out there that could pull out
a draft petition from his hat or sleeve.
The same applies to other old-hardware manufactors.
Sipke
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence LeMay <lemay(a)cs.umn.edu>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 12:28 AM
Subject: Re: Scanning out-of-print books and documentation
its been a couple years since I looked into copyright
penalties, but if
i recall correctly there is a fairly large cash penalty for violating
copyright, and you can either chose that penalty OR seek actual damages
if you can prove greater than the fixed amount in damages.
-Lawrence LeMay
> Jason has hit hit the nail directly with the hammer--DAMAGES are
> the germane point. I'd guess you could go ahead and put almost anything,
> copyrighted or no up on the web. In the unlikely event that the
> copyright holder ever becomes aware of your infringement---probably the
> worse case would be a cease and desist letter requiring you to take it
> down. Very difficult if not impossible for them to prove damages--if the
> work is long out of print there would be NO damages to prove anyway.
> NB: Free legal advice is worth exactly what you paid for it!
> Craig
>
> Jason McBrien wrote:
> >
> > Generally, if the publisher of the book or manual is still in business,
they
> > still own the copyright for the next 80 or
so years. They tend to get
upset
> > if you redistribute it free of charge.
> >
> > However, if the book hasn't been published in quite a long time, the
> > publisher won't care quite as much (I.E. it's hard to prove damages in
court
> > if you haven't published the book in
question for 10 years, especially for
> > outdated hardware) Check the publisher's website, amazon.com,
fatbrain.com,
> > etc... to see if it still in print or
available. Better yet ask the
> > publisher if you can redistribute it. I've seen many websites with
> > reproduced instruction cards and owner's manuals with consent of the
> > publisher. Just make sure all the (TM)s and (R)s are in the right places.
> > Good luck.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ram Meenakshisundaram" <rmeenaks(a)olf.com>
> > To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 10:52 AM
> > Subject: Scanning out-of-print books and documentation
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I want to start scanning some of the transputer books and manuals that I
> > > have. A lot if not all are out-of-print. If I scan them and put them
on
> > > the net, do I have to worry about
copyright laws, etc. Would I get into
> > any
> > > trouble?? What is the current policy on this?? I know several of you
> > guys
> > > scanned several books/documentation/manuals etc for various machines.
Any
> help in this would be appreciated. Oh, what
about old software too.
> Thanks.
>
> Ram
>
>
6:51 p.m.
It has been several years [actually more like 5] for me as well,
however--as I recall the penalty was for unattributed use--ie: stealing
the copyrighted information and/or claiming it as your own. I doubt
publishing on a web page [as a not for profit] undertaking--would be
viewed as a terribly egregious offense. Lots of places on the web have
scanned or OCR documents posted [copyright and all] and I've never heard
of anyone being overly hassled about it.
Craig
Lawrence LeMay wrote:
its been a couple years since I looked into copyright penalties, but if
i recall correctly there is a fairly large cash penalty for violating
copyright, and you can either chose that penalty OR seek actual damages
if you can prove greater than the fixed amount in damages.
-Lawrence LeMay
> Jason has hit hit the nail directly with the hammer--DAMAGES are
> the germane point. I'd guess you could go ahead and put almost anything,
> copyrighted or no up on the web. In the unlikely event that the
> copyright holder ever becomes aware of your infringement---probably the
> worse case would be a cease and desist letter requiring you to take it
> down. Very difficult if not impossible for them to prove damages--if the
> work is long out of print there would be NO damages to prove anyway.
> NB: Free legal advice is worth exactly what you paid for it!
> Craig
>
> Jason McBrien wrote:
> >
> > Generally, if the publisher of the book or manual is still in business, they
> > still own the copyright for the next 80 or so years. They tend to get upset
> > if you redistribute it free of charge.
> >
> > However, if the book hasn't been published in quite a long time, the
> > publisher won't care quite as much (I.E. it's hard to prove damages in
court
> > if you haven't published the book in question for 10 years, especially for
> > outdated hardware) Check the publisher's website, amazon.com,
fatbrain.com,
> > etc... to see if it still in print or available. Better yet ask the
> > publisher if you can redistribute it. I've seen many websites with
> > reproduced instruction cards and owner's manuals with consent of the
> > publisher. Just make sure all the (TM)s and (R)s are in the right places.
> > Good luck.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ram Meenakshisundaram" <rmeenaks(a)olf.com>
> > To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 10:52 AM
> > Subject: Scanning out-of-print books and documentation
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I want to start scanning some of the transputer books and manuals that I
> > > have. A lot if not all are out-of-print. If I scan them and put them on
> > > the net, do I have to worry about copyright laws, etc. Would I get into
> > any
> > > trouble?? What is the current policy on this?? I know several of you
> > guys
> > > scanned several books/documentation/manuals etc for various machines.
Any
> > > help in this would be appreciated. Oh, what about old software too.
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > Ram
> > >
> > >
>
9027
days inactive
9027
days old
12 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
-
cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com -
ip500＠roanoke.infi.net -
jbmcb＠hotmail.com -
lemay＠cs.umn.edu -
pat＠transarc.ibm.com -
rich＠alcor.concordia.ca -
rivie＠teraglobal.com -
rmeenaks＠olf.com -
sipke＠wxs.nl -
wilson＠dbit.dbit.com