15 Dec
2014
15 Dec
'14
11:31 a.m.
This is rather off-topic, although I will be using said chassis punches for classic
computer restoration
I am thinking of buying some chassis punches, in particular some of the ones for D
connectors (and others).
One brand I can easily get in the UK is Greenlee. Am I right that that is a respected
manufacturer of them?
Not cheap, but then I can't afford the cheap ones.
Also Greenlee do an accesory called the Quick-Draw or something, a handheld hydraulic
device that fits
on said punches. It is darn expensive, but I want to know what advantages it gives. If it
is just faster then I
am not interested. If it means I can cut thicker metal then I might be.
-tony
15 Dec
15 Dec
11:41 a.m.
I don't know about the hydraulic part, but I've had really like my Greenlee
punches.
On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 1:31 PM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
This is rather off-topic, although I will be using said chassis punches
for classic computer restoration
I am thinking of buying some chassis punches, in particular some of the
ones for D connectors (and others).
One brand I can easily get in the UK is Greenlee. Am I right that that is
a respected manufacturer of them?
Not cheap, but then I can't afford the cheap ones.
Also Greenlee do an accesory called the Quick-Draw or something, a
handheld hydraulic device that fits
on said punches. It is darn expensive, but I want to know what advantages
it gives. If it is just faster then I
am not interested. If it means I can cut thicker metal then I might be.
-tony
11:52 a.m.
I don't know about the hydraulic part, but
I've had really like my Greenlee
punches.
That is the sort of thing I've read elsewhere. Greenlee are not cheap, but they
do the job and last. The brand we used to use in the UK was Q-max [1] but
they don't do the sizes I need
[1] Again a good brand IMHO. I convinced my father to buy me the 5/8", 3/4"
and 1+1/8" ones about 35 years ago. I am still using them. Of course those are
the sizes for B7G, B9A and Octal valveholders... I think the company started out
making RF (and IF?) coils, hence the name.
The ones I am looking at are the conventional 'tighten the bolt' ones albeit with
a thrust type ball race on the bolt to reduce the torque needed. The published
specs exceed what I need to do (they are specified to punch 1.6mm mild steel,
the thickest I want to do is 1.2mm).
The hydraulic thingy seems to fit in place of the nut and pulls the punch bolt
through the metal into the die. Nowhere can I find info on what advantage it
gives. If it's just quicker then I am not going to get one.
-tony
12:06 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony
duell
Sent: 15 December 2014 19:53
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: RE: OT : Chassis punches
3/4"
I don't know about the hydraulic part, but
I've had really like my
Greenlee punches.
That is the sort of thing I've read elsewhere. Greenlee are not cheap, but
they do the job and last. The brand we used to use in the UK was Q-max [1]
but they don't do the sizes I need
[1] Again a good brand IMHO. I convinced my father to buy me the 5/8",
and 1+1/8" ones about 35 years ago. I am still
using them. Of course those
are the sizes for B7G, B9A and Octal valveholders... I think the company
started out making RF (and IF?) coils, hence the name.
The ones I am looking at are the conventional 'tighten the bolt' ones
albeit
with a thrust type ball race on the bolt to reduce the
torque needed. The
published specs exceed what I need to do (they are specified to punch
1.6mm mild steel, the thickest I want to do is 1.2mm).
The hydraulic thingy seems to fit in place of the nut and pulls the punch
bolt
through the metal into the die. Nowhere can I find
info on what advantage
it
gives. If it's just quicker then I am not going to
get one.
Well the manual says the foot pump also allows you to use both hands to
position the punch.
The big advantage of the hydraulics is that you will put more of the effort
into pulling the die through the steel.
The problem with the bolt version is that the tension in the bolt increases
the friction between the bolt and the threads.
This makes it hard to tighten the nut, even with a ball bearing. With this
system the friction will stay the same.
These days being old and feeble I think I might buy the hydraulic version...
-tony
Dave
G4UGM
12:12 p.m.
Well the manual says the foot pump also allows you to
use both hands to
position the punch.
I can see that if you have the type that fits on a bench press arrangement, but
I am looking at the ones where you drill the centre hole and fit the punch one
side of the panel and the die the other. So not having 2 hands free is not
that important
The big advantage of the hydraulics is that you will
put more of the effort
into pulling the die through the steel.
The problem with the bolt version is that the tension in the bolt increases
the friction between the bolt and the threads.
This makes it hard to tighten the nut, even with a ball bearing. With this
system the friction will stay the same.
True. So it might increase the cutting capacity. On the other hand the
instructions for the hydraulic pump warn time and again about
trying to go through too think a panel. apparently if the bolt breaks it's
spectacular.
These days being old and feeble I think I might buy
the hydraulic version...
Thing is, the punches are around \pounds 100 each (!). The hydraulic add-on
is over \pounds 400 (it fits all the punches, I would only need to buy one). I
can just about afford it, but I don't want to spend money if I don't have to.
-tony
12:44 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony
duell
Sent: 15 December 2014 20:12
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: RE: OT : Chassis punches
arrangement,
Well the manual says the foot pump also allows
you to use both hands
to position the punch.
I can see that if you have the type that fits on a bench press but I am looking at the ones where you drill the
centre hole and fit the
punch
one side of the panel and the die the other. So not
having 2 hands free is
not
that important
I would think it would be spectacular. The tension must be tremendous.
The big advantage of the hydraulics is that you
will put more of the
effort into pulling the die through the steel.
The problem with the bolt version is that the tension in the bolt
increases the friction between the bolt and the threads.
This makes it hard to tighten the nut, even with a ball bearing. With
this system the friction will stay the same.
True. So it might increase the cutting capacity. On the other hand the
instructions for the hydraulic pump warn time and again about trying to go
through too think a panel. apparently if the bolt breaks it's spectacular.
> These days being old and feeble I think I might buy the hydraulic
version...
Thing is, the punches are around \pounds 100 each (!). The hydraulic
add-on
is over \pounds 400 (it fits all the punches, I would
only need to buy
one). I
can just about afford it, but I don't want to
spend money if I don't have
to.
Ah, at that price it would be cheaper to engage my Rugby Playing Number 3
son. Even if I pay him ?10/Hour I can get a lot of holes punched for
?400...
... and he would have no problems with the original method.
-tony
12:55 p.m.
True. So it might increase the cutting capacity. On the other hand the
instructions for the hydraulic pump warn time and again about trying to go
through too think a panel. apparently if the bolt breaks it's spectacular.
I would think it would be spectacular. The tension must be tremendous. Ah, at that price it would be cheaper to engage my
Rugby Playing Number 3
son. Even if I pay him ?10/Hour I can get a lot of holes punched for
?400...
... and he would have no problems with the original method.
Having repaired the suspension, etc on my father's car (before he sadly passed
away [1]), I have had to torque bolts to 200 lb.ft and more (and yes I do own a
torque wrench going that high). I also had to undo the bolts when they had been
originally done up to that torque and then suffered general corrosion, etc. It's
amazing how much torque you can exert with a T-bar on a socket set.
[1] In case it's not clear, these had nothing to do with each other, He was not
killed
in a car crash.
Given that the spec of the plain Greenlee punch I am looking at (without any mention
of the hydraulic add-on) exceeds what I want to do with it, I am guessing I can save
the money here.
-tony
-tony
16 Dec
16 Dec
12:11 p.m.
On 15/12/14 20:55, tony duell wrote:
Given that the spec of the plain Greenlee punch I am
looking at
(without any mention of the hydraulic add-on) exceeds what I want to
do with it, I am guessing I can save the money here. -tony
Is there some reason not to buy the punches first and then only buy the
hydraulic add-on if it turns out you need it?
The only difference would be paying two lots of postage wouldn't it?
Antonio
arcarlini at iee.org
12:49 p.m.
> Given that the spec of the plain Greenlee punch I
am looking at
> (without any mention of the hydraulic add-on) exceeds what I want to
> do with it, I am guessing I can save the money here. -tony
Is there some reason not to buy the punches first and
then only buy the
hydraulic add-on if it turns out you need it?
None at all, and this is what I probably will do. As I mentioned elsewhere
the spec of the basic punch (which I assume applies when it is used with
the drawbolt/nut tightened with a spanner) exceeds what I want to do with
it so I am guessing IO don't need the hydraulic driver
The only difference would be paying two lots of
postage wouldn't it?
Not even that. I think I can collect it from a trade counter in London, so it's
just a matter of a second trip.
However I shall wait until the new year, Around now orders tend to get
misplaced, etc...
-tony
1:34 p.m.
On 12/16/2014 12:49 PM, tony duell wrote:
Do investigate Pexto hand and arbor punches. These do not require a
pilot hole and, in, at least in the case of aluminum, have an
interesting property.
I was chatting with the guy who ran our model shop, when one of the
mechanical engineers came in holding a chassis plate that was already
pre-punched. Don asked what he needed and Mario said "I need this hole
to be smaller by about 125 thousandths." So how does one make a
negative hole? I was really interested.
Don went over to the Pexto arbor punch and select a die that
corresponded to the size of the existing hole. He grabbed a sheet of
scrap, punched the hole out, then took the resulting slug, inserted it
into the appropriate place in the chassis plate and pressed it into
place on an arbor press. He then took it over to the drill press,
marked and drilled a new hole right in the center of the slug.
Since the screws being used were coarse thread sheet metal screws, I
wondered if that could possibly hold a screw. He stated that it would
hold at least as well as the rest of the holes in the plate. It did.
The trick was apparently that the slugs that come out of the arbor punch
come out a bit concave. Pressing them into place causes the diameter of
the slug to expand slightly, locking it in place.
--Chuck
9:30 p.m.
Do investigate Pexto hand and arbor punches. These do not require a
pilot hole and, in, at least in the case of aluminum, have an
interesting property.
I don't, as yet' have an abour press, although it is another luxury I am
considering. But one advantage of the bolt-up type (Greenlee, Qmax)
is that you can put a hole anywhere, in any size bit of metal, it doesn't
have to fit in the press.
[Filling a hole]
The trick was apparently that the slugs that come out
of the arbor punch
come out a bit concave. Pressing them into place causes the diameter of
the slug to expand slightly, locking it in place.
I suspect that's true of Qmax cutters too in that their slugs are dished when they
come out and are a tight fit in the die. Not that I have ever tried it (and of course
those slugs have a central hole)
-tony
15 Dec
15 Dec
12:22 p.m.
gives. If it's just quicker then I am not going to
get one.
Would perhpas the hydraulic have less of a tendency for the entire punch
to turn? That's never been a serious problem for me.
BTW, the Harbor Freight one is called "Knockout Punch" for the manual
ones, and "Hydraulic Punch Driver Kit" for their $90 hydraulic set, but
Tony will want to stick with Greenlee. And, the Harbor Freight one does
not have a wide range, with no special shapes other than round.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
12:32 p.m.
BTW, the Harbor Freight one is called "Knockout
Punch" for the manual
ones, and "Hydraulic Punch Driver Kit" for their $90 hydraulic set, but
Tony will want to stick with Greenlee. And, the Harbor Freight one does
not have a wide range, with no special shapes other than round.
From what I have read on various websites, the harbor
Frieght ones are
not good quality (failing after 3 uses has been reported). No
thanks!.
I am still not rich enough to buy cheap tools.
And anyway, I am specifically looking at the D connector ones (amongst
others). I certainly want DB and DD but the other 3 (DA, DC, DE) are
being considered too..
-tony
12:44 p.m.
On 12/15/2014 12:32 PM, tony duell wrote:
And anyway, I am specifically looking at the D
connector ones (amongst
others). I certainly want DB and DD but the other 3 (DA, DC, DE) are
being considered too..
I'm curious if anyone has tried using a big router with a carbide or
diamond bit and a template to do the odd shapes. Of course, the
advantage of punches is that a smooth edge is the result.
I recall that the model shop guy at one location where I worked didn't
fool with Greenlee--he said that they were probably fine for field work,
but he relied on his Pexto punches (now part of Roper-Whitney) to do
that sort of thing in the shop. I suspect you'll find a Pexto or close
relative in most sheet-metal fab shops.
--Chuck
1:21 p.m.
On 12/15/2014, 12:44 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 12/15/2014 12:32 PM, tony duell wrote:
Sort of a HNC machine (Human Numeric Control)? I'd be wanting good ear
protection!
And anyway, I am specifically looking at the D
connector ones (amongst
others). I certainly want DB and DD but the other 3 (DA, DC, DE) are
being considered too..
I'm curious if anyone has tried using a big router with a carbide or
diamond bit and a template to do the odd shapes. Of course, the
advantage of punches is that a smooth edge is the result.
...
--Chuck
John :-#)#
1:28 p.m.
On Mon, 15 Dec 2014, tony duell wrote:
From what I have read on various websites, the harbor
Frieght ones are
not good quality (failing after 3 uses has been reported). No thanks!.
I am still not rich enough to buy cheap tools.
I'm never sure how seriously to take those "reviews". MOST of them seemed
to be people trying to make holes through heavy stainless steel sinks.
AND, significant percentage were baffled by "1/2 inch" meaning "i/2 inch
PIPE" (which is of course larger than 1/2")
I haven't tried the Harbor Freight ones; I have a set of Greenlees that I
bought 40 years ago (and it was old then).
And anyway, I am specifically looking at the D
connector ones (amongst
others). I certainly want DB and DD but the other 3 (DA, DC, DE) are
being considered too..
Yes.
Chuck's suggestion of router jig could probably be made adjustable for
multiple sizes.
But I've always considered a chassis punch to be the best way to make
holes in sheet metal.
Y'know, it wouldn't be very hard to make an aligning system to use the
punches in a small arbor press, . . .
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
1:19 p.m.
In my experience, Greenlee is the industrial standard for metal punches. As
duly noted, they are not cheap but of excellent quality - and will last a
typical user's lifetime.
As for the Quick-Draw device, if you think about it, I really cannot
increase the maximum force / material thickness that the punch can work.
Whether the punch is driven manually or automatically, the weakest link in
the chain is the same - the tensile strength of the threaded portion of the
drawbolt.
However, it would reduce one of the major wear points, which is the
threaded connection between the die & drawbolt. With the hydraulic device,
you no longer need to drive the thread to develop the pulling force - the
hydraulic piston develops that force for you, so no need to drive the
thread. But in my experience, I suspect that the cutting edges of the die
would dull before threadwear became a point of concern.
If you want to speed-up the operation, drive the punch through with an
impact wrench once you've got it properly started.
On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 1:52 PM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
I don't know about the hydraulic part, but
I've had really like my
Greenlee
punches.
That is the sort of thing I've read elsewhere. Greenlee are not cheap, but
they
do the job and last. The brand we used to use in the UK was Q-max [1] but
they don't do the sizes I need
[1] Again a good brand IMHO. I convinced my father to buy me the 5/8", 3/4"
and 1+1/8" ones about 35 years ago. I am still using them. Of course those
are
the sizes for B7G, B9A and Octal valveholders... I think the company
started out
making RF (and IF?) coils, hence the name.
The ones I am looking at are the conventional 'tighten the bolt' ones
albeit with
a thrust type ball race on the bolt to reduce the torque needed. The
published
specs exceed what I need to do (they are specified to punch 1.6mm mild
steel,
the thickest I want to do is 1.2mm).
The hydraulic thingy seems to fit in place of the nut and pulls the punch
bolt
through the metal into the die. Nowhere can I find info on what advantage
it
gives. If it's just quicker then I am not going to get one.
-tony
1:31 p.m.
On Mon, 15 Dec 2014, drlegendre . wrote:
If you want to speed-up the operation, drive the punch
through with an
impact wrench once you've got it properly started.
On tools that I own, such as chassis punches and screw pullers, I will not
let people use impact wrenches on lead screws.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
5 p.m.
Howdy Fred,
Your tools, your rules, of course..
On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 3:31 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
On Mon, 15 Dec 2014, drlegendre . wrote:
On screw pullers, I fully agree - that's just not how they work! You draw
the puller to full tension, then give a few sharp raps on the screw with a
heavy, but soft metal (bronze or lead) hammer. If that makes things loose,
then tighten the puller again and repeat until it pops free.
But what's wrong with using a power tool to run a punch through, once it's
properly started - and you're confident that you're not trying to force it
through material that's beyond its limit? I'd agree that it not exactly
desirable, but for speeding through a few operations, particularly in soft
/ thin materials, I don't see how it's going to damage anything.
If you want to speed-up the operation, drive the
punch through with an
impact wrench once you've got it properly started.
On tools that I own, such as chassis punches and screw pullers, I will not
let people use impact wrenches on lead screws.
11:53 a.m.
On 12/15/2014 11:31 AM, tony duell wrote:
This is rather off-topic, although I will be using
said chassis punches for classic computer restoration
I am thinking of buying some chassis punches, in particular some of the ones for D
connectors (and others).
One brand I can easily get in the UK is Greenlee. Am I right that that is a respected
manufacturer of them?
Not cheap, but then I can't afford the cheap ones.
Also Greenlee do an accesory called the Quick-Draw or something, a handheld hydraulic
device that fits
on said punches. It is darn expensive, but I want to know what advantages it gives. If it
is just faster then I
am not interested. If it means I can cut thicker metal then I might be.
I don't know about the Quick-Draw hydraulic, but I have a set of
Greenlee chassis punches that I've owned for over 40 years and they
still work fine. I also have a set of Japanese punches from around that
time--and they're fine as well.
I suspect that the "Quick draw" comes in handy if you're an electrical
contractor punching holes in steel utility boxes (i.e. thicker steel),
but for ordinary electronics chassis work, the wrench-drive one should
be fine.
Greenlee's a Textron company. Generally speaking, Textron products are
expensive, but very well made.
--Chuck
12:10 p.m.
On Mon, 15 Dec 2014, tony duell wrote:
One brand I can easily get in the UK is Greenlee. Am I
right that that
is a respected manufacturer of them?
Yes. They are the standard ones around here. Or used to be; I'm not in
touch with latest (<30 years) fads. Enough so that when I say "Greenlee
chassis punch", it is more likely to be understood than if I just say
"chassis punch".
The round ones are common in automotive use.
I always wanted a DB and a DE.
I could be wrong, but I assume that the hydraulic and pneumatic devices
are for increased production, speed, and reduced effort.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
16 Dec
16 Dec
12:11 a.m.
On Mon, 15 Dec 2014, tony duell wrote:
This is rather off-topic, although I will be using
said chassis punches
for classic computer restoration
I am thinking of buying some chassis punches, in particular some of the
ones for D connectors (and others).
One brand I can easily get in the UK is Greenlee. Am I right that that
is a respected manufacturer of them? Not cheap, but then I can't afford
the cheap ones.
Also Greenlee do an accesory called the Quick-Draw or something, a
handheld hydraulic device that fits on said punches. It is darn
expensive, but I want to know what advantages it gives. If it is just
faster then I am not interested. If it means I can cut thicker metal
then I might be.
Greenlee punches are known for quality. I have a few and am happy with
them.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
9:03 a.m.
We use Greenlee punches on our assembly floor at work. When I worked out
there one summer during a strike I punched a lot of holes. Usually for
small (1/2, 3/4, 1in conduit) stuff I used the bolt and bearing. I didn't
use the hydraulic accessory until it was 3in or 4in. Sometimes I had to use
multiple punches to get a hole big enough for the larger bolts. Step drill
to get a rough hole for the smaller punch bolt and then use a punch big
enough for the next bolt.
They usually went through easily as long as the punch was sharp. Its the
initial cut that is hardest to get once the point is through it just slices
easily.
Chuck
Engineer and one time electrical panel builder/strike breaker
On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 3:11 AM, David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu>
wrote:
On Mon, 15 Dec 2014, tony duell wrote:
This is rather off-topic, although I will be using said chassis punches
for classic computer restoration
I am thinking of buying some chassis punches, in particular some of the
ones for D connectors (and others).
One brand I can easily get in the UK is Greenlee. Am I right that that is
a respected manufacturer of them? Not cheap, but then I can't afford the
cheap ones.
Also Greenlee do an accesory called the Quick-Draw or something, a
handheld hydraulic device that fits on said punches. It is darn expensive,
but I want to know what advantages it gives. If it is just faster then I am
not interested. If it means I can cut thicker metal then I might be.
Greenlee punches are known for quality. I have a few and am happy with
them.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
3658
days inactive
3660
days old
22 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
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a.carlini＠ntlworld.com -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cclist＠sydex.com -
chd＠chdickman.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
dave.g4ugm＠gmail.com -
dgriffi＠cs.csubak.edu -
drlegendre＠gmail.com -
pinball＠telus.net -
useddec＠gmail.com