22 May
2018
22 May
'18
12:55 p.m.
For the last five years I've been working with Qualcomm and others to
allow the Computer History Museum to release the source code of what
was, in my opinion, the finest email client ever written: Eudora.
It's finally done!
http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/the-eudora-email-client-source-code/
22 May
22 May
1:01 p.m.
I still use Eudora today...since 1995.
On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 3:55 PM, Len Shustek via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
For the last five years I've been working with
Qualcomm and others to
allow the Computer History Museum to release the source code of what was,
in my opinion, the finest email client ever written: Eudora. It's finally
done!
http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/the-eudora-email-client-source-code/
1:02 p.m.
On May 22, 2018, at 12:55 PM, Len Shustek via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
For the last five years I've been working with Qualcomm and others to allow the
Computer History Museum to release the source code of what was, in my opinion, the finest
email client ever written: Eudora. It's finally done!
http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/the-eudora-email-client-source-code/
Simply put, WOW!
I dream of a new version of Eudora for the Mac, and I know that I?m not the only one.
Unfortunately I also realize that it would take significant effort to update it for
current versions of MacOS.
I?m using Mail.app now, and it?s largely worthless at finding things in my email
archives.
Zane
25 May
25 May
2:29 p.m.
On May 22, 2018, at 3:02 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
HOLY COW! I concur with Zane in every way. Len, thank you very much! What a labor of
love!
Eudora was my favorite productivity application of all time. I spend most of my time in
Mail just due to heartbroken nostalgia for it.
If a new version of that were to appear, capable of running on my Mac OS X.12 and talking
to our Exchange server, I would be ecstatic.
On May 22, 2018, at 12:55 PM, Len Shustek via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
For the last five years I've been working with Qualcomm and others to allow the
Computer History Museum to release the source code of what was, in my opinion, the finest
email client ever written: Eudora. It's finally done!
http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/the-eudora-email-client-source-code/
Simply put, WOW!
I dream of a new version of Eudora for the Mac, and I know that I?m not the only one.
Unfortunately I also realize that it would take significant effort to update it for
current versions of MacOS.
I?m using Mail.app now, and it?s largely worthless at finding things in my email
archives.
Zane
3:09 p.m.
On May 25, 2018, at 4:44 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 5/25/18 2:29 PM, Tapley, Mark via cctalk wrote:
Al,
I just fired up my PowerBook 3400 runing Mac OS 9.1 for the first time in *way* too long
and it runs Eudora 6.1 with no problems. ResEdit 2.1 can see a whole page of Resources in
the Eudora Application. I suspect you will get more than one email like this, but if you
should want help and can tell me how to render it, please don?t hesitate!
?.or did I fail to catch some OS X irony there?
- Mark
> I dream of a new version of Eudora for the
Mac
Someone has noticed that all of the resource forks in the files have disappeared :-(
29 May
29 May
7:21 a.m.
On May 25, 2018, at 5:35 PM, Al Kossow <aek at
bitsavers.org> wrote:
yea.. I'm not going to dig into it myself.
Just wanted to warn people some archaeology will be necessary to rebuild the Mac
version.
On 5/25/18 3:09 PM, Tapley, Mark wrote:
> ResEdit 2.1 can see a whole page of Resources in the Eudora Application.
One more followup, over the weekend I located the "Eudora 6.2.dmg? file that
installed the Eudora I used up until our Exchange server quit talking to it. The .dmg is
4.8 MB on disk according to the MacOSX.4 PowerBook it?s on. As before, anyone wanting help
with working on updating need only ask and let me know how to help.
- Mark
9:28 a.m.
Before you get too far, the original source disk from Qualcomm is still available and some
work has started to
try to recover the Mac files and their resource forks at CHM.
On 5/29/18 7:21 AM, Tapley, Mark via cctalk wrote:
On May 25,
2018, at 5:35 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
yea.. I'm not going to dig into it myself.
Just wanted to warn people some archaeology will be necessary to rebuild the Mac
version.
On 5/25/18 3:09 PM, Tapley, Mark wrote:
> ResEdit 2.1 can see a whole page of Resources in the Eudora Application.
One more followup, over the weekend I located the "Eudora 6.2.dmg? file that
installed the Eudora I used up until our Exchange server quit talking to it. The .dmg is
4.8 MB on disk according to the MacOSX.4 PowerBook it?s on. As before, anyone wanting help
with working on updating need only ask and let me know how to help.
- Mark
22 May
22 May
1:09 p.m.
On Tue, 22 May 2018, Len Shustek via cctalk wrote:
For the last five years I've been working with
Qualcomm and others to allow
the Computer History Museum to release the source code of what was, in my
opinion, the finest email client ever written: Eudora. It's finally done!
http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/the-eudora-email-client-source-code/
This is great! Any idea if pre-built binaries will be availble as well?
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
1:18 p.m.
On 05/22/2018 01:55 PM, Len Shustek via cctalk wrote:
For the last five years I've been working with
Qualcomm and others to
allow the Computer History Museum to release the source code of what
was, in my opinion, the finest email client ever written: Eudora. It's
finally done!
http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/the-eudora-email-client-source-code/
Intriguing.
This will definitely be worth messing with.
I wonder if Thunderbird will end up with competition and / or borrowing
ideas from Eudora.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
3:16 p.m.
At 02:55 PM 5/22/2018, Len Shustek via cctalk wrote:
For the last five years I've been working with
Qualcomm and others to allow the Computer History Museum to release the source code of
what was, in my opinion, the finest email client ever written: Eudora. It's finally
done!
http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/the-eudora-email-client-source-code/
Dang-nabbit. Just a few weeks ago I decided I needed to move away from Eudora.
I uninstalled Office 2003 and bought a subscription to Office 365 and began
the search for a tool to move all my Eudora 7.1.0.9 email archives to Outlook PST.
I settled on https://weirdkid.com/emailchemy/ . It failed until I cranked
its Java .vmoptions to 12 gig of RAM. It's very slow... as a single-threaded
Java app, it took at least two days for my i7 to crunch my 7 gigs of Eudora
folders. The PST is about twice as large.
Examining it in Outlook, it felt very slow compared to Eudora on the same
machine. Slow to search, slow to view. Made me think I'd need to break up
the PST into dozens of chunks. I'm still using Eudora.
- John
6:12 p.m.
On 05/22/2018 05:16 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
Dang-nabbit. Just a few weeks ago I decided I needed
to move away from Eudora.
I uninstalled Office 2003 and bought a subscription to Office 365 and began
the search for a tool to move all my Eudora 7.1.0.9 email archives to Outlook PST.
They went to office 365 at work, it is absolutely awful. I
refuse to use their ghastly bloated web portal,
so I use Thunderbird on a Linux platform. It is awfully
slow. Sometimes it takes 5 minutes to download 3 messages
when I start it up.
At home I use Thunderbird with standard Linux smtp and pop
servers and it works fine.
Jon
23 May
23 May
7:28 a.m.
New subject: OT- Thunderbird ugliness, Was: Eudora email client source code released
On Tue, 22 May 2018, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
so I use Thunderbird on a Linux platform. It is
awfully slow. Sometimes it
takes 5 minutes to download 3 messages when I start it up.
At home I use Thunderbird with standard Linux smtp and pop servers and it
works fine.
Apologies to hijack this one (I can't tell you how impressed I am with
both the CHM's efforts and Qualcomm's release, I find these things really
exciting for our hobby) - but I've been having real troubles with TBird in
the last few years and my obstinacy has been holding me back.
I run Thunderbird on a 2016 MacBoook Pro (Sierra 10.12.6, 2.6GHz i7, 16GB
RAM, internal SSD) where I'm pulling via IMAP from Google (their
professional company service thingy), but maintain a local 24GB cache of
eMail.
It's slower than molasses in january. Moving eMail around between
'folders' often has it sit and spin the beachball for 2-3 seconds - dozens
of times a day. And I just can't work out why - I mean, yes, it's a lot of
ruddy eMail, but it's a monster of a laptop and it should be
pulling/moving on the SSD when it's getting stuck before it's even tried
to send the move message to google.
I _detest_ the gmail interface, I'd really prefer to continue using a
client like this - but TBird just isn't getting any better.
What am I missing here? Are there better options? Is Thunderbird just not
designed for large mail sets for people who actually work for a living?
Responses should probably be sent to me directly. And my thanks in advance
for your opinions, my curmudgeonly behaviour is really eating up my time
and I'm hoping there's a reasonable fix beyond "Suck it up and use
gmail".
Cheers!
- JP
8:49 a.m.
New subject: OT- Thunderbird ugliness, Was: Eudora email client source code released
On 05/23/2018 08:28 AM, JP Hindin via cctalk wrote:
Apologies to hijack this one (I can't tell you how
impressed I am with
both the CHM's efforts and Qualcomm's release, I find these things
really exciting for our hobby) - but I've been having real troubles with
TBird in the last few years and my obstinacy has been holding me back.
I don't think this was a thread hijack attempt at all.
You're parroting things I said on Twitter about Eudora's source code
release and what it might mean for Thunderbird or some of their users.
I run Thunderbird on a 2016 MacBoook Pro (Sierra
10.12.6, 2.6GHz i7,
16GB RAM, internal SSD) where I'm pulling via IMAP from Google (their
professional company service thingy), but maintain a local 24GB cache of
eMail.
I've got about 1/6th of that in IMAP spread across 1,118 folders.
It's slower than molasses in january. Moving eMail
around between
'folders' often has it sit and spin the beachball for 2-3 seconds -
dozens of times a day. And I just can't work out why - I mean, yes, it's
a lot of ruddy eMail, but it's a monster of a laptop and it should be
pulling/moving on the SSD when it's getting stuck before it's even tried
to send the move message to google.
How are you interfacing with Gmail? IMAP or something else. ? I think
Thunderbird supports interfacing with Gmail in another protocol. I may
be wrong.
I _detest_ the gmail interface, I'd really prefer
to continue using a
client like this - but TBird just isn't getting any better.
AGREED!!!
What am I missing here? Are there better options? Is
Thunderbird just
not designed for large mail sets for people who actually work for a living?
I don't know. I too wonder if there's another option. Hence why I'm
hoping that Eudora's source code release & license will help this situation.
Responses should probably be sent to me directly. And
my thanks in
advance for your opinions, my curmudgeonly behaviour is really eating up
my time and I'm hoping there's a reasonable fix beyond "Suck it up and
use gmail".
?\_(?)_/?
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
10:30 a.m.
New subject: OT- Thunderbird ugliness, Was: Eudora email client source code released
On 05/23/2018 08:49 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
How are you interfacing with Gmail?? IMAP or something
else.? ?? I think
Thunderbird supports interfacing with Gmail in another protocol.? I may
be wrong.
Gmail also allows for a POP3 interface. I'd originally used the
suggested IMAP interface and then had a bit of a net outage. I
discovered that I had no copies of my inbox messages--apparently, they
resided on Google's servers. So I went to the POP interface, where the
message is deleted from the server when I receive it.
Otherwise, for me, it's been a progression of email clients. elm, pine,
eudora, Courier, Pegasus and finally Thunderbird, which has worked
passably well to date.
--Chuck
6:53 p.m.
New subject: OT- Thunderbird ugliness, Was: Eudora email client source code released
On 05/23/2018 11:30 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
Gmail also allows for a POP3 interface.
I /think/ I knew that. But I obviously forgot it.
I was actually trying to remember if Gmail had something more akin to
ActiveSync or something else that ran over top of HTTPS that email
clients could use in lieu of IMAP or POP3.
? searching ?
Yep, Gmail supports Google Sync.
Link - What is Google Sync?
- https://support.google.com/a/answer/135937?hl=en
I was sort of wondering if you were using that, or something else like
that. Or if it was IMAP / POP3.
I'd originally used the suggested IMAP interface
and then had a
bit of a net outage. I discovered that I had no copies of my inbox
messages--apparently, they resided on Google's servers. So I went to
the POP interface, where the message is deleted from the server when I
receive it.
Yep, IMAP is server based, and great for multiple devices trying to
access the same mailbox.
The thing that you didn't do was configure your email client to retain a
local copy of all of your email. (I proactively did that years ago.)
Otherwise, for me, it's been a progression of
email clients. elm,
pine, eudora, Courier, Pegasus and finally Thunderbird, which has worked
passably well to date.
I don't think I've used Courier myself. I may have to check it out. Is
it just another IMAP / POP3 / SMTP style email client like Eudora &
Thunderbird? Or does it have something else to offer?
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
8:41 p.m.
New subject: OT- Thunderbird ugliness, Was: Eudora email client source code released
On 05/23/2018 06:53 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
I /think/ I knew that.? But I obviously forgot it.
pop.googlemail.com port 995.
Yep, Gmail supports Google Sync.
Link - What is Google Sync?
?- https://support.google.com/a/answer/135937?hl=en
I'd prefer to keep my own messages and just use gmail as a server.
I don't think I've used Courier myself.?
Courser used to be called Calypso. One of the older (1996) Windows
clients. Got passed alsong until it was discontinued by its current
owner, Rose City Software around 2009. There's still a Yahoo community
for it. But it's 32-bit Windows only, AFAIK; Calypso was 16-bit. At
one point, RC released source, but I don't know if any copies were
preserved.
It was useful back in the day because it allowed multiple accounts, like
most email clients do today.
But it's old stuff; I wouldn't bother.
Pegasus/Mercury is still around: http://www.pmail.com/, but I don't know
much about the current (2017) release. I used it mostly because it
could import Calypso/Courier mailboxes directly. From Pegasus to
Thunderbird was a very easy move.
When I moved my workload from Windows to Linux, I just brought along the
Windows mail profile content and I was up and running in minutes.
It's strange; although I still have some archives, I don't recall what I
used for an email reader when I was doing email with UUCP. I do recall
that it was awkward--it required a separate utility to handle
MIME-encoded content. Folks hadn't discovered email with HTML content
yet--those were simpler days.
--Chuck
24 May
24 May
10:08 a.m.
New subject: OT- Thunderbird ugliness, Was: Eudora email client source code released
On 05/23/2018 09:41 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
I'd prefer to keep my own messages
I do too.
and just use gmail as a server.
What sort of server? IMAP, POP3, SMTP, file & printer, fax?
I'm asking sort of to be ornery but it does make a difference which you
mean in the context of this discussion.
Courser used to be called Calypso. One of the older
(1996) Windows
clients. Got passed alsong until it was discontinued by its current
owner, Rose City Software around 2009. There's still a Yahoo community
for it. But it's 32-bit Windows only, AFAIK; Calypso was 16-bit. At one
point, RC released source, but I don't know if any copies were preserved.
Hum.
I'll have to check it out. (I have an unhealthy habit of playing with
software / servers / infrastructure from the late '90s and early '00s.
So it sounds like that falls in that sandbox.
It was useful back in the day because it allowed
multiple accounts,
like most email clients do today.
Now I'm trying to remember. I want to say that Thunderbird has always
had multiple account support for as long as I can remember. I naively
assume Netscape's email client (part of the Netscape Communicator
package) did the same, but I'm not sure. (Insert typical "AssUMe" joke
here.)
That being said, it may have been that it supported multiple POP3
accounts that all dumped into the same messages tore. (Sub)folders &
message filtering rules aside.
But it's old stuff; I wouldn't bother.
To each his own.
Pegasus/Mercury is still around:
http://www.pmail.com/, but I don't
know much about the current (2017) release. I used it mostly because
it could import Calypso/Courier mailboxes directly. From Pegasus to
Thunderbird was a very easy move.
I actually installed a handful of Mercury Mail servers this decade.
Some of my clients wanted the advantages of self hosted email on their
company Windows server. (It was protected behind my filtering service,
and not exposed to the Internet.) Mercury Mail was actually a very
price competitive solution for H.I.Y. email. The features that Mercury
Mail offered were fairly nice too. It obviously worked with all of the
standard POP3 / IMAP / SMTP clients. ? Just hosted locally in house
where disk quotas were not an issue. ? It also helped that the clients
tended to be remote locations with slow internet connections, thus fast
access to a local mail server was GREATLY appreciated when sending
attachments to coworkers.
I've dabbled with Pegasus in my aforementioned unhealthy hobby. Usually
associated with NetWare.
By the way, I do like your migration path. ;-)
When I moved my workload from Windows to Linux, I just
brought along
the Windows mail profile content and I was up and running in minutes.
Yep. I've made a very similar transition. Just years (decade(s)?) ago.
I also migrated my from my local mail store (using POP3) to a central
IMAP server w/ local client side cache for offline access.
Though I've got to say, I think the absolute very BEST online / offline
email client integration that I've ever seen was Lotus Notes and Domino.
(I'll send a follow up email with details as to why I was /so/ impressed.)
It's strange; although I still have some archives,
I don't recall what
I used for an email reader when I was doing email with UUCP. I do
recall that it was awkward--it required a separate utility to handle
MIME-encoded content. Folks hadn't discovered email with HTML content
yet--those were simpler days.
~chuckle~
I'd think the biggest clue would be text vs GUI interface combined with
when.
I've used UUCP as recently as 18 months ago. ;-)
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
10:27 a.m.
New subject: Lotus Notes and Domino
On 05/24/2018 11:08 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
Though I've got to say, I think the absolute very
BEST online / offline
email client integration that I've ever seen was Lotus Notes and Domino.
?(I'll send a follow up email with details as to why I was /so/
impressed.)
I was EXTREMELY impressed with how well Lotus Notes worked as an email
client for Lotus Domino when it came to online / offline use.
First: I had Notes configured to replicate my email (DB) off of the
Domino server so that I could have access to it even if I was offline.
I don't recall how Notes behaved if I transitioned between online /
offline in the event of a network (dis)connection. (It rarely
happened.) But I was easily able to change the so called "Location"
from "Online" to "Offline" (or any
other location that I defined) on the
fly with absolute minimal impact by clicking
a drop down and selecting a
different location.
The most likely small burp would be if I naively left it in the Online
location when starting up without the company VPN connected, thus unable
to communicate with the Domino server. In such a case, Notes might take
15 ~ 30 additional seconds to open as it tried to connect before it
would give up trying to connect and say "Unable to connect to server,
starting in Offline mode." I could easily start the VPN after the fact
and switch to "Online" mode and do a Replicate (what Notes termed the
Send & Receive).
I could easily draft email while offline and it would sit in my outbox
waiting for the next time I replicated.
IMHO it worked great.
Aside: I had this same type of behavior for other non-Mail DBs inside
of Notes too. My employer used a LOT of Notes DBs for various things.
Vacation planner was a Notes DB. Inventory was a Notes DB. Team
documentation repositories were Notes DBs. Each team have a different
document repository (Team Room) Notes DB. Different people had
different levels of access to different DBs.
Further Aside: I could easily enable DB level encryption of the local
replica of a Notes DB trivially. I could also turn encryption off or
change security level easily.
*ALL* of my Notes DBs benefited from these (and more) features;
replication, online / offline, encryption, meta data indexing, full text
indexing, and many more.
Second: The thing that I did with my email that was *SO* impressive to
me was that my email DB on my workstation was a replica of my email DB
on the Domino server. With the exception that my server replica was <
300 MB (disk quota) and my local workstation replica > 2 GB. ? Yes,
the same DB had bidirectional replication between > 2 GB and < 300 MB.
This is what amazed me.
I configured custom replication between the my workstation and the
server such that:
1) Deletes from the server copy were not replicated into my workstation
copy.
2) The server copy only maintained messages that were < 30 days old.
(I needed to replicate within that window, but 30 days is not a
problem.)
3) ALL modifications to the local copy were replicated to the server copy.
This allowed me to use my email like I had no disk quota at all. (Based
on amount of storage on my workstation.) I could leave all my messages
in my mailbox /with/ attachments left in tact. (Many colleagues removed
attachments form messages to shrink their inbox. I didn't have that
problem.) All the while I was able to stay well under the 300 MB disk
quota and stay out of "Mail Jail".
As an added bonus, I was able to leverage the company provided web mail
interface and access the email that was still on the server (within the
30 day window). Anything I sent / received / marked as (un)read would
get replicated into my workstation copy the next time I replicated.
In my (not so) humble opinion, Lotus Notes & Domino has got to be, hands
down, the absolute BEST replicated email infrastructure that I've ever seen.
I do think the UI was fairly ugly and somewhat clunky. That being said,
I was able to do compose email / team documents with features that I
LONG for in Gmail.
In hind sight I would have liked to have a tiny Domino server (which
Notes was in some ways) that was an IMAP / SMTP interface for a local
copy of Thunderbird. - I think that would have given me the
aforementioned features /and/ what I considered to be a better UI.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
8:51 p.m.
New subject: Lotus Notes and Domino
Lotus notes was great! I was a system administrator back around 1997 or
so, managing Lotus notes running on a larger AIX server at HQ, and a bunch
of smaller AIX systems at various remote offices. I really enjoyed
working with it. Sadly, it was the only place I ever got to work with it!
*Garrett Meiers*
BitHistory.org
https://www.facebook.com/BitHistory/ <http://www.bithistory.org/>
=Helping to protect and preserve our computing history=
On Thu, May 24, 2018 at 12:27 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 05/24/2018 11:08 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk
wrote:
?
Though I've got to say, I think the absolute
very BEST online / offline
email client integration that I've ever seen was Lotus Notes and Domino.
(I'll send a follow up email with details as to why I was /so/ impressed.)
I was EXTREMELY impressed with how well Lotus Notes worked as an email
client for Lotus Domino when it came to online / offline use.
First: I had Notes configured to replicate my email (DB) off of the
Domino server so that I could have access to it even if I was offline.
I don't recall how Notes behaved if I transitioned between online /
offline in the event of a network (dis)connection. (It rarely happened.)
But I was easily able to change the so called "Location" from
"Online" to
"Offline" (or any other location that I defined) on the fly with absolute
minimal impact by clicking a drop down and selecting a different location.
The most likely small burp would be if I naively left it in the Online
location when starting up without the company VPN connected, thus unable to
communicate with the Domino server. In such a case, Notes might take 15 ~
30 additional seconds to open as it tried to connect before it would give
up trying to connect and say "Unable to connect to server, starting in
Offline mode." I could easily start the VPN after the fact and switch to
"Online" mode and do a Replicate (what Notes termed the Send & Receive).
I could easily draft email while offline and it would sit in my outbox
waiting for the next time I replicated.
IMHO it worked great.
Aside: I had this same type of behavior for other non-Mail DBs inside of
Notes too. My employer used a LOT of Notes DBs for various things.
Vacation planner was a Notes DB. Inventory was a Notes DB. Team
documentation repositories were Notes DBs. Each team have a different
document repository (Team Room) Notes DB. Different people had different
levels of access to different DBs.
Further Aside: I could easily enable DB level encryption of the local
replica of a Notes DB trivially. I could also turn encryption off or
change security level easily.
*ALL* of my Notes DBs benefited from these (and more) features;
replication, online / offline, encryption, meta data indexing, full text
indexing, and many more.
Second: The thing that I did with my email that was *SO* impressive to me
was that my email DB on my workstation was a replica of my email DB on the
Domino server. With the exception that my server replica was < 300 MB
(disk quota) and my local workstation replica > 2 GB. ? Yes, the same DB
had bidirectional replication between > 2 GB and < 300 MB.
This is what amazed me.
I configured custom replication between the my workstation and the server
such that:
1) Deletes from the server copy were not replicated into my workstation
copy.
2) The server copy only maintained messages that were < 30 days old.
(I needed to replicate within that window, but 30 days is not a
problem.)
3) ALL modifications to the local copy were replicated to the server copy.
This allowed me to use my email like I had no disk quota at all. (Based
on amount of storage on my workstation.) I could leave all my messages in
my mailbox /with/ attachments left in tact. (Many colleagues removed
attachments form messages to shrink their inbox. I didn't have that
problem.) All the while I was able to stay well under the 300 MB disk
quota and stay out of "Mail Jail".
As an added bonus, I was able to leverage the company provided web mail
interface and access the email that was still on the server (within the 30
day window). Anything I sent / received / marked as (un)read would get
replicated into my workstation copy the next time I replicated.
In my (not so) humble opinion, Lotus Notes & Domino has got to be, hands
down, the absolute BEST replicated email infrastructure that I've ever seen.
I do think the UI was fairly ugly and somewhat clunky. That being said, I
was able to do compose email / team documents with features that I LONG for
in Gmail.
In hind sight I would have liked to have a tiny Domino server (which Notes
was in some ways) that was an IMAP / SMTP interface for a local copy of
Thunderbird. - I think that would have given me the aforementioned
features /and/ what I considered to be a better UI.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
1:30 p.m.
New subject: OT- Thunderbird ugliness, Was: Eudora email client source code released
On 05/24/2018 10:08 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
On 05/23/2018 09:41 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
You haven't been paying attention, Grant. I mentioned a bit earlier
that I used POP3 with gmail.
I'd prefer to keep my own messages
I do too.
and just use gmail as a server.
What sort of server?? IMAP, POP3, SMTP, file & printer, fax? Now I'm trying to remember.? I want to say that
Thunderbird has always
had multiple account support for as long as I can remember.? I naively
assume Netscape's email client (part of the Netscape Communicator
package) did the same, but I'm not sure.? (Insert typical "AssUMe" joke
here.)
Yes, but again, in context, Thunderbird is a newcomer. (Where was it in
1996? (Other than as a wine for cheap drunks, I mean; I'm not aware of
any email client called Night Train, but I'm willing to be surprised).
--Chuck
2:43 p.m.
New subject: OT- Thunderbird ugliness, Was: Eudora email client source code released
On 05/24/2018 02:30 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
You haven't been paying attention, Grant. I
mentioned a bit earlier
that I used POP3 with gmail.
I have. You mistook my meaning.
I was meaning to imply that "gmail as a server" can mean multiple
things. As in stating "gmail as a server" by itself is not enough to
specify what type of server.
I was aware that you were using Gmail as a POP3 server.
I also suspect that you are using Gmail as an SMTP server, despite not
saying such.
Yes, but again, in context, Thunderbird is a newcomer.
(Where was it
in 1996? (Other than as a wine for cheap drunks, I mean; I'm not aware
of any email client called Night Train, but I'm willing to be surprised).
I'm fairly certain that Thunderbird's immediate predecessor, Netscape
Mail / Communicator existed in '96. I know it existed in the late '90s.
(It's my understanding that Thunderbird is a direct descendant of
original Netscape source code.) Please forgive me for counting Netscape
Mail / Communicator and Mozilla Thunderbird as one project and implying
that said project was around in the '90s.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
3:54 p.m.
New subject: OT- Thunderbird ugliness, Was: Eudora email client source code released
On 05/24/2018 02:43 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
I was meaning to imply that "gmail as a
server" can mean multiple
things.? As in stating "gmail as a server" by itself is not enough to
I also suspect that you are using Gmail as an SMTP
server, despite not
saying such.
I'm not entirely sure that I do use gmail for SMTP. I rarely use it to
send mail--i use it mostly as a "junk mail collector" or for something
that requires a gmail address.
I don't recall if I used my own relay for outgoing SMTP from a gmail
address or not.
I'm fairly certain that Thunderbird's
immediate predecessor, Netscape
Mail / Communicator existed in '96.? I know it existed in the late '90s.
?(It's my understanding that Thunderbird is a direct descendant of
original Netscape source code.)? Please forgive me for counting Netscape
Mail / Communicator and Mozilla Thunderbird as one project and implying
that said project was around in the '90s.
I wasn't aware of Thunderbird's lineage. I wonder how much of the
original Netscape Mail is in Thunderbird, or even if Thunderbird
understands Netscape mailboxes. I was probably still using NCSA Mosaic
for web browsing in 1996.
--Chuck
4:03 p.m.
New subject: OT- Thunderbird ugliness, Was: Eudora email client source code released
On 05/24/2018 04:54 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
I'm not entirely sure that I do use gmail for
SMTP. I rarely use it to
send mail--i use it mostly as a "junk mail collector" or for something
that requires a gmail address.
Fair.
I don't recall if I used my own relay for outgoing
SMTP from a gmail
address or not.
If you do use other servers to send your Gmail address, you're likely
running afoul of Gmail's SPF and DMARC. Your messages also wouldn't be
DKIM signed by Gmail if you don't use Gmail's SMTP servers.
I wasn't aware of Thunderbird's lineage. I
wonder how much of
the original Netscape Mail is in Thunderbird, or even if Thunderbird
understands Netscape mailboxes.
I have no idea how much of the original code is still in there.
I /think/ that Thunderbird does (or at least it used to) use standard
mbox files for storage. So lots of things can handle that.
I was probably still using NCSA Mosaic for web
browsing in 1996.
I don't know that I ever used NCSA Mosaic. I should probably try it in
a VM running Windows 3x some day.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
23 May
23 May
9:03 a.m.
New subject: OT- Thunderbird ugliness, Was: Eudora email client source code released
On 05/23/2018 09:28 AM, JP Hindin via cctalk wrote:
On Tue, 22 May 2018, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
You should keep the Inbox down to a few hundred messages at
the most. I create a bunch of Inbox_2017 type folders and
move older Inbox items to it every couple months. All
sorting is done in memory, and if any folder gets too big,
it starts to thrash. I do the same for Sent and Local folders.
Also, make sure you clear out your Junk and Trash folders
every couple weeks. There is an "extension" called "Extra
Folder Columns" that adds total messages and a megabytes
column to each folder, so you can see when it needs clearing
out. Not sure if this is available for your version, but I
find it very useful.
I keep all (retained) email locally, I don't trust any
outside service. So, I can see old messages even without
the net. I have mail going back to 1997.
I DO have an SSD, that really helps. The only thing I find
slow is when I go to delete 4000+ emails from the Trash
folder. That can take a minute, but I only do it every
week, or less often.
When I open Thunderbird and download 300+ emails at a
session, it takes about 15 seconds to run all the message
filter rules on them. I think that is GREAT, let the
computer do work so I don't HAVE to.
And, once the automatic filtering is trained, it works
AMAZINGLY well at culling all the spam and almost NEVER puts
a good message in the Trash or Junk folder. That, right
THERE is why I use Thunderbird!
I do have about a dozen hand-written filters for stuff that
repeatedly gets through the automatic filtering.
As for the slowness at work with Office 365, that is clearly
a Microsoft issue, everybody sees the same awful
performance, no matter what interface they use to access it.
Jon
so I use Thunderbird on a Linux platform. It is
awfully
slow. Sometimes it takes 5 minutes to download 3 messages
when I start it up.
At home I use Thunderbird with standard Linux smtp and
pop servers and it works fine.
Apologies to hijack this one (I can't tell you how
impressed I am with both the CHM's efforts and Qualcomm's
release, I find these things really exciting for our
hobby) - but I've been having real troubles with TBird in
the last few years and my obstinacy has been holding me back.
I run Thunderbird on a 2016 MacBoook Pro (Sierra 10.12.6,
2.6GHz i7, 16GB RAM, internal SSD) where I'm pulling via
IMAP from Google (their professional company service
thingy), but maintain a local 24GB cache of eMail.
It's slower than molasses in january. Moving eMail around
between 'folders' often has it sit and spin the beachball
for 2-3 seconds - dozens of times a day. And I just can't
work out why - I mean, yes, it's a lot of ruddy eMail, but
it's a monster of a laptop and it should be pulling/moving
on the SSD when it's getting stuck before it's even tried
to send the move message to google.
I _detest_ the gmail interface, I'd really prefer to
continue using a client like this - but TBird just isn't
getting any better.
What am I missing here? Are there better options? Is
Thunderbird just not designed for large mail sets for
people who actually work for a living?
9:23 a.m.
New subject: OT- Thunderbird ugliness, Was: Eudora email client source code released
On Wed, 23 May 2018 at 16:28, JP Hindin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
Apologies to hijack this one (I can't tell you how
impressed I am with
both the CHM's efforts and Qualcomm's release, I find these things really
exciting for our hobby) - but I've been having real troubles with TBird in
the last few years and my obstinacy has been holding me back.
Ditto.
I run Thunderbird on a 2016 MacBoook Pro (Sierra
10.12.6, 2.6GHz i7, 16GB
RAM, internal SSD) where I'm pulling via IMAP from Google (their
professional company service thingy), but maintain a local 24GB cache of
eMail.
It's slower than molasses in january. Moving eMail
around between
'folders' often has it sit and spin the beachball for 2-3 seconds - dozens
of times a day. And I just can't work out why - I mean, yes, it's a lot of
ruddy eMail, but it's a monster of a laptop and it should be
pulling/moving on the SSD when it's getting stuck before it's even tried
to send the move message to google.
I _detest_ the gmail interface, I'd really prefer
to continue using a
client like this - but TBird just isn't getting any better.
I actually quite like the Gmail interface, and I've been using it for 14Y
now, but I'd like a fast usable local client. I travel a lot, and I don't
always have Internet access on the road. A proper responsive local email
client, where I could read, comment, and post it all when I get to my
destination, would be great.
T'bird is no longer it, alas. It was for years, and I spent time and effort
moving my email archive 1991-2004 to it. But as you say, it's sluglike in
the extreme with Gmail.
What am I missing here? Are there better options? Is
Thunderbird just not
designed for large mail sets for people who actually work for a living?
I do wonder myself.
I now use Claws at work. It's quicker. I don't like it, but it does the job.
Responses should probably be sent to me directly. And
my thanks in advance
for your opinions, my curmudgeonly behaviour is really eating up my time
and I'm hoping there's a reasonable fix beyond "Suck it up and use
gmail".
I've left the CC on.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
24 May
24 May
5:51 a.m.
New subject: OT- Thunderbird ugliness, Was: Eudora email client source code released
On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 09:28:40AM -0500, JP Hindin via cctalk wrote:
[...]
It's slower than molasses in january. Moving eMail
around between 'folders'
often has it sit and spin the beachball for 2-3 seconds - dozens of times a
day. And I just can't work out why - I mean, yes, it's a lot of ruddy eMail,
but it's a monster of a laptop and it should be pulling/moving on the SSD
when it's getting stuck before it's even tried to send the move message to
google.
There are two parts to this. The first is that Thunderbird is a bloated
monstrosity ejected when Mozilla collapsed under its own weight and went
supernova. It's had years of feature creep since. The second is that Google
would rather you use the web interface where they can show you ads so the IMAP
service is subtly nonstandard to confuse your client.
[...]
What am I missing here? Are there better options? Is
Thunderbird just not
designed for large mail sets for people who actually work for a living?
MacOS includes a perfectly good GUI mail client. It is even aware that GMail is
not a standard IMAP/SMTP mail service and works round its quirks.
6:55 a.m.
New subject: OT- Thunderbird ugliness, Was: Eudora email client source code released
On Thu, 24 May 2018 at 14:51, Peter Corlett via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
There are two parts to this. The first is that
Thunderbird is a bloated
monstrosity ejected when Mozilla collapsed under its own weight and went
supernova. It's had years of feature creep since.
Up to a point, Lord Corlett.
It is a bit, but on the other hand, it does actually work and work quite
well most of the time. (An as-yet untraced bug prevents me using it at
$JOB.)
I've tried Evolution, Sylpheed, Balsa, KMail, GNUmail and a number of
others. All were lacking functionality I consider important, such as being
able to fetch mail in the background while I am reading/writing.
I currently use Claws. It's clunky but functional. It can't do simple stuff
like remembering anyone I ever write to in the address book, though.
The second is that Google
would rather you use the web interface where they can show you ads so the
IMAP
service is subtly nonstandard to confuse your client.
I never see 'em. I've been routinely running ad-blockers for about 15 years
or more.
It's about *the* best browser-based email I've ever seen, though, and I've
tried most of them since Elonex HTMaiL in 1995. Most suck. A few are OK.
Gmail is actually _good_. They're dropping useful features all the time,
though.
MacOS includes a perfectly good GUI mail client. It is
even aware that
GMail is
not a standard IMAP/SMTP mail service and works round
its quirks.
It's OK. Its facelifts have not improved actual functionality. The thread
mode is weird and I never fully understood it. I can't mark mails as
read/unread, flagged/unflagged, etc with a simple click as I can in T'bird,
betraying its mid-1980s origins.
And of course I can't use it on my Linux laptops.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
9:47 a.m.
New subject: OT- Thunderbird ugliness, Was: Eudora email client source code released
On 05/24/2018 07:55 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
It's about the best browser-based email I've
ever seen, though, and I've
tried most of them since Elonex HTMaiL in 1995. Most suck. A few are OK.
Gmail is actually good. They're dropping useful features all the time,
though.
Gmail's web UI may be the best UX as far as web UIs go. But I find it
atrocious compared to a (what I consider to be) a real, fat, MUA running
on the client machine.
I routinely find myself annoyed (likely worse) and lambasting Gmail
monthly, if not weekly.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
2:47 p.m.
New subject: OT- Thunderbird ugliness, Was: Eudora email client source code released
On 5/23/2018 9:28 AM, JP Hindin via cctalk wrote:
On Tue, 22 May 2018, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
I use Thunderbird, and for the most part it has worked fine. But I use
it in a somewhat unusual way. My gmail address forwards to my normal
ISP address. I retrieve mail from that using IMAP but I do *not* leave
it on the server. Instead, I process the resulting inbox with filters,
and distribute the mail to a local folders inbox (named so it floats to
the top of the list) and other places (like Classic, for example, in
categories depending upon subject).
Retrieval is usually fast. However, until I went to the method I use
now, the IMAP folder and message management made it painfully slow.
My mail profile folder is 10GB, roughly, consisting of 22036 files and
8198 directories. I use the "Quick Folder Move" add on to make managing
the email in the inbox that is worthy of filing away relatively painless.
JRJ
so I use Thunderbird on a Linux platform.? It is
awfully slow.
Sometimes it takes 5 minutes to download 3 messages when I start it up.
At home I use Thunderbird with standard Linux smtp and pop servers and
it works fine.
Apologies to hijack this one (I can't tell you how impressed I am with
both the CHM's efforts and Qualcomm's release, I find these things
really exciting for our hobby) - but I've been having real troubles with
TBird in the last few years and my obstinacy has been holding me back.
I run Thunderbird on a 2016 MacBoook Pro (Sierra 10.12.6, 2.6GHz i7,
16GB RAM, internal SSD) where I'm pulling via IMAP from Google (their
professional company service thingy), but maintain a local 24GB cache of
eMail.
It's slower than molasses in january. Moving eMail around between
'folders' often has it sit and spin the beachball for 2-3 seconds -
dozens of times a day. And I just can't work out why - I mean, yes, it's
a lot of ruddy eMail, but it's a monster of a laptop and it should be
pulling/moving on the SSD when it's getting stuck before it's even tried
to send the move message to google.
I _detest_ the gmail interface, I'd really prefer
to continue using a
client like this - but TBird just isn't getting any better.
What am I missing here? Are there better options? Is Thunderbird just
not designed for large mail sets for people who actually work for a living?
Responses should probably be sent to me directly. And my thanks in
advance for your opinions, my curmudgeonly behaviour is really eating up
my time and I'm hoping there's a reasonable fix beyond "Suck it up and
use gmail".
Cheers!
?- JP
25 May
25 May
9:56 a.m.
Thanks for doing this. I still use Eudora as my primary mail program
and have been doing so since about 1991, first on Mac and then on
Windoze. Have started using Thunderbird as easier to configure for
new email formats and should probably get up to speed on developments
since popmail format - much easier to do when one has source code to examine.
It works far better than any other email program I've encountered and
absolutely detest M$ outlook which seems to be the default for most
people now, unfortunately. People now seem unaware of the size of
their emails when they use html for sending a simple email and I use
plain text only and attach files when need to use another
format. Other nice thing about Eudora is that every attachment needs
to be opened individually and am immune from malicious email
attachments/embedded malware.
Years ago I reverse engineered the mailbox file format enough to be
able to recovere emails when Eudora crashed in the middle of
compacting a mailbox. Now that have the source code should be able
to get all 27 years of my emails into a single database. Eudora can
handle large numbers of emails but it gets sluggish and finally
crashes when don't archive mailing lists such as classiccmp and will
be nice to have all the emails from this mailing list available for
searching as one database rather than having to trying to find
scattered archived Eudora mailbox files from decades ago.
Boris Gimbarzevsky
For the last five years I've been working with
Qualcomm and others
to allow the Computer History Museum to release the source code of
what was, in my opinion, the finest email client ever written:
Eudora. It's finally done!
http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/the-eudora-email-client-source-code/
2160
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abuse＠cabal.org.uk -
aek＠bitsavers.org -
billdegnan＠gmail.com -
bithistory＠gmail.com -
boris＠summitclinic.com -
cclist＠sydex.com -
cctalk＠gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net -
cube1＠charter.net -
elson＠pico-systems.com -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
healyzh＠avanthar.com -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
jplist2008＠kiwigeek.com -
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mtapley＠swri.edu