That's the whole problem though. It's not a personal dislike of NT that annoys me, it's the fact that all this comes down on the end user - the users of the systems/software that we produce, not necessarily our direct customers - and forces them to use a shoddy system that's not up to spec and costs a lot more that it has to. NT's good for some things, especially on the client, (although even then I'm from the camp that says that if a client-side app can't be done in Java running within a browser then it isn't worth doing, so 200MB of NT overhead kinda kills my argument!) but it's the fact that *most* people have a "stick with what you know" policy (which is usually Win95 or NT, but could be a UNIX system) that really gets to me, especially when presented with hard figures to prove them wrong. I get frustrated delivering solutions to end users when I know that there is a better, cheaper and faster way (and yes, that is taking into account things like support/maintenance costs), but don't have enough clout within a company to say what systems to use and can only make recommendations which I know will be ignored. (phew.... deep breath! :*) it can be a very, very crazy world... cheers Jules