28 Nov
2009
28 Nov
'09
1:49 p.m.
A different interpretation on the 10 Yr. 'Rule'. Many experts, CPU mag
being one, say that we shouldn't store info on CDs, DVDs, etc. as they
may be unreadable in less than 10 yrs. Wouldn't it be sad if we lost
valuable information on the classic computing era? I guess
old-fashioned paper is the best way after all! Let's hope these
technologies last longer than my Zip-drive and disks that can't be
read because the drive died and I can't get it fixed or at the very
least at a decent price. So Sad!
Murray--
29 Nov
29 Nov
8:45 a.m.
On Nov 28, 2009, at 1:49 PM, Murray McCullough wrote:
A different interpretation on the 10 Yr.
'Rule'. Many experts, CPU mag
being one, say that we shouldn't store info on CDs, DVDs, etc. as they
may be unreadable in less than 10 yrs. Wouldn't it be sad if we lost
valuable information on the classic computing era? I guess
old-fashioned paper is the best way after all! Let's hope these
technologies last longer than my Zip-drive and disks that can't be
read because the drive died and I can't get it fixed or at the very
least at a decent price. So Sad!
My strategy is to have *many* duplicates of the data and that all of
the bits need to be spinning. If they're not spinning, they don't
exist! I move all the data to new technology every few years (about
to do another upgrade since I'm about out of space on my 6TB array).
TTFN - Guy
12:45 p.m.
Guy Sotomayor wrote:
My strategy is to have *many* duplicates of the data and that all of the
bits need to be spinning. If they're not spinning, they don't exist! I
move all the data to new technology every few years (about to do another
upgrade since I'm about out of space on my 6TB array).
While I disagree on the bit about needing to be spinning (20 years from
now, everything will be flash), I wholeheartedly agree that the data
must be migrated to new technology every half-decade or full decade.
Every single one of my archive mediums -- 5.25" DSDD, zip drive, hard
drive(s), CDs, DVDs -- has had at least one failure somewhere. Even DLT.
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/
1:15 p.m.
On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 02:45:44PM -0600, Jim Leonard wrote:
Guy Sotomayor wrote:
Which is yet another reason to:
- always keep more than one copy of your data
- keep several versions if the data changes with time (so you can
recover from corruptions & operator errors over larger time spans)
- keep it on different media types (disks, tapes, optical ...)
- ideally, keep safe offsite copies (preferrably encrypted if it
isn't public data)
Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
My strategy is to have *many* duplicates of the data and that all of
the bits need to be spinning. If they're not spinning, they don't
exist! I move all the data to new technology every few years (about to
do another upgrade since I'm about out of space on my 6TB array).
While I disagree on the bit about needing to be spinning (20 years from
now, everything will be flash), I wholeheartedly agree that the data
must be migrated to new technology every half-decade or full decade.
Every single one of my archive mediums -- 5.25" DSDD, zip drive, hard
drive(s), CDs, DVDs -- has had at least one failure somewhere. Even DLT.
12:46 p.m.
Murray McCullough wrote:
Let's hope these
technologies last longer than my Zip-drive and disks that can't be
read because the drive died and I can't get it fixed or at the very
least at a decent price. So Sad!
zip drives are $10 on ebay, have you tried a replacement drive?
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/
12:55 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Leonard" <trixter at oldskool.org>
To: <General at mail.mobygames.com>; "Discussion at mail.mobygames.com
:On-Topic
and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 3:46 PM
Subject: Re: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE'
Murray McCullough wrote:
When the world comes to an end there will be nothing left but cockroaches
and zip drives. I can't think of anything removable besides a floppy drive
that was so mass produced
If you need a zip drive (IDE) just find an old Powermac beige G3 since they
generally came with one.
Let's hope these
technologies last longer than my Zip-drive and disks that can't be
read because the drive died and I can't get it fixed or at the very
least at a decent price. So Sad!
zip drives are $10 on ebay, have you tried a replacement drive?
-- 
30 Nov
30 Nov
8:07 a.m.
On Sunday 29 November 2009, Teo Zenios wrote:
When the world comes to an end there will be nothing
left but
cockroaches and zip drives. I can't think of anything removable
besides a floppy drive that was so mass produced
CD/DVD (and now BD)?
Pat
--
Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
8:26 a.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Finnegan" <pat at computer-refuge.org>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE'
On Sunday 29 November 2009, Teo Zenios wrote:
I was thinking non optical when I wrote that. I bet most CDR/RW burners of
ZIP drive vintage are recycled by now, yet I still see zip drives all over
the place (even thrift stores).
When the world comes to an end there will be
nothing left but
cockroaches and zip drives. I can't think of anything removable
besides a floppy drive that was so mass produced
CD/DVD (and now BD)?
Pat
--
1 Dec
1 Dec
11:36 a.m.
Teo Zenios wrote:
I was thinking non optical when I wrote that. I bet
most CDR/RW burners
of ZIP drive vintage are recycled by now, yet I still see zip drives all
over the place (even thrift stores).
Ah, but how many of those Zip drives are still in working order?
As I recall, the main failure mode was damaged (or badly manufactured)
discs ripping the heads off the mounting arm. Once this happened, that
drive would destroy any disc inserted into it from then onwards. In some
cases, those discs would then become "killer discs" thus destroying more
Zip drives, and so on and so on.
I've got a ZipPlus and the parallel cable somewhere; it more or less
works, but needs a new power supply. Can't be bothered spending money on
something I'm not going to use... I don't think I've used it since I got
my first CD writer (a Freecom 8x4x32, aka Philips CDD4801 -- still doing
sterling service in my brother's PC).
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
12:15 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Pemberton" <classiccmp at philpem.me.uk>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE'
Teo Zenios wrote:
I have quite a few drives (since I collect old mac and beige g3 and B&W
units came with them plus some others I got back in the day for the PC) and
all of them work.
The disks are useful for moving drivers around that normally do not fit onto
one floppy if the machine does not have networking at the moment.
I was thinking non optical when I wrote that. I
bet most CDR/RW burners
of ZIP drive vintage are recycled by now, yet I still see zip drives all
over the place (even thrift stores).
Ah, but how many of those Zip drives are still in working order?
As I recall, the main failure mode was damaged (or badly manufactured)
discs ripping the heads off the mounting arm. Once this happened, that
drive would destroy any disc inserted into it from then onwards. In some
cases, those discs would then become "killer discs" thus destroying more
Zip drives, and so on and so on.
I've got a ZipPlus and the parallel cable somewhere; it more or less
works, but needs a new power supply. Can't be bothered spending money on
something I'm not going to use... I don't think I've used it since I got
my first CD writer (a Freecom 8x4x32, aka Philips CDD4801 -- still doing
sterling service in my brother's PC).
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/ 
6 Dec
6 Dec
4:50 p.m.
I have quite a few drives (since I collect old mac and
beige g3 and B&W
units came with them plus some others I got back in the day for the PC)
and all of them work.
Hm.. I had a few drives as well. I threw away an IDE drive
yesterday.
Still have at least one IDE drive, some disks, and an external SCSI
drive. Probably more. And access to even more (in fact I throw them away
- As well as 5.25" floppy disk drives, 3.5" floppy disk drives, MFM and
RLL hard disks...).
Did not yet have trouble with ZIP drives. Works well with a pdp11, too.
-- Philipp
1 Dec
1 Dec
1:16 p.m.
Ah, but how many of those Zip drives are still in
working order?
Mine is, and I have some 40-50 disks :)
As I recall, the main failure mode was damaged (or
badly manufactured)
discs ripping the heads off the mounting arm. Once this happened, that
drive would destroy any disc inserted into it from then onwards. In some
cases, those discs would then become "killer discs" thus destroying more
Zip drives, and so on and so on.
The "click" syndrome :oD
I've got a ZipPlus and the parallel cable
somewhere; it more or less
works, but needs a new power supply. Can't be bothered spending money on
something I'm not going to use... I don't think I've used it since I got
my first CD writer (a Freecom 8x4x32, aka Philips CDD4801 -- still doing
sterling service in my brother's PC).
This is a common 5VCC supply, you can supply it with your PC's power
supply.
When I used that permanently connected to the mac, the mac's power
supply feeded the blue pacman...
Zip disks are good if you have roland music gear :o)
12:30 p.m.
Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
That's pretty much a *physical* computer virus, isn't it?
Peace... Sridhar
As I recall,
the main failure mode was damaged (or badly manufactured)
discs ripping the heads off the mounting arm. Once this happened, that
drive would destroy any disc inserted into it from then onwards. In
some cases, those discs would then become "killer discs" thus
destroying more Zip drives, and so on and so on.
The "click" syndrome :oD 
1:29 p.m.
On 1 Dec 2009 at 19:36, Philip Pemberton wrote:
Ah, but how many of those Zip drives are still in
working order?
Lots. Down at the recycler, they still get 100MB very frequently and
someone's always trying to give one away on Freecycle, it seems.
As I recall, the main failure mode was damaged (or
badly manufactured)
discs ripping the heads off the mounting arm. Once this happened, that
drive would destroy any disc inserted into it from then onwards. In
some cases, those discs would then become "killer discs" thus
destroying more Zip drives, and so on and so on.
The Jaz drives were far worse in this respect.
I've got a ZipPlus and the parallel cable
somewhere; it more or less
works, but needs a new power supply. Can't be bothered spending money
on something I'm not going to use... I don't think I've used it since
I got my first CD writer (a Freecom 8x4x32, aka Philips CDD4801 --
still doing sterling service in my brother's PC).
Do what I did with my first parallel-port Zip drive--make an adapter
cable that siphons power off the keyboard jack. I used an adapter
that came with a (mumble, not Trantor/Adaptec) parallel-to-SCSI
controller. The Zip needs just +5.
--Chuck
2:40 p.m.
Do what I did with my first parallel-port Zip
drive--make an adapter
cable that siphons power off the keyboard jack. I used an adapter
that came with a (mumble, not Trantor/Adaptec) parallel-to-SCSI
controller. The Zip needs just +5.
Too little current avaiable, better put a P4 jack on the 5V line of your
computer.
"better safe than sorry" :o)
3:19 p.m.
On 1 Dec 2009 at 19:40, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
Too little current avaiable, better put a P4 jack
on the 5V line
of your computer.
About an amp at +5. Easily obtainable through the standard DIN
keyboard connector of a "vintage" system (like the 386 that mine's
been attached to since about 1996). And that amp is when it's
actually in use, which almost never.
If you get nervous, add a fuse in the supply line.
--Chuck
11:08 a.m.
cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote:
On Mon, 30 Nov 2009, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
More or less, Blue Ray (Disc) is definitely someone having a laugh :-)
Antonio
CD/DVD (and now BD)?
What is BD? Bande d?ssin?e (=comic strip)? ;-) 
29 Nov
29 Nov
2:12 p.m.
On Sun, 29 Nov 2009, Jim Leonard wrote:
zip drives are $10 on ebay, have you tried a
replacement drive?
. . . and, when you get a working one,
use it just long enough to GET YOUR DATA ONTO NON-IOMEGA MEDIA!
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
3:16 p.m.
On 29 Nov 2009 at 14:46, Jim Leonard wrote:
Murray McCullough wrote:
They're usually free on the local freecycle and $5 on craigslist here
(that's the 750MB model too). This is pretty much a Mac town, so
there's a lot of them out there.
I listened to an interesting talk by Robert Danter of Harvard last
night. Harvard is in process of digitizing their entire collection
and much of his talk was given over to the influence of Google (he
thinks it's good, but that they need to be watched). One question
Let's hope these
technologies last longer than my Zip-drive and disks that can't be
read because the drive died and I can't get it fixed or at the very
least at a decent price. So Sad!
zip drives are $10 on ebay, have you tried a replacement drive? from the floor asked about preservation of digital
data. He wasn't
too concerned about the data itself, but was concerned that
information could become "orphaned" (i.e. dis-indexed) and so be
logically gone. I can see his point. As far as recovery goes, he
pointed out that the bulk of the US 1960 census data was eventually
recovered even though it was initially thought to be lost.
I use DVD-R much less than CD-R and use the Mitsui/MAM-A "gold" media
for archival discs, so I should be fine. My old QIC tapes seem to
read just fine after 20 years as do my 30+ year old 8" floppies.
I've never used Zip/Jaz/Sparq etc. for archival storage.
Wasn't there a videodisc recording method that used a high-powered
laser to burn pits into blank media? That would seem to be a good
candidate for archival storage.
--Chuck
3:30 p.m.
As far as recovery goes, he
pointed out that the bulk of the US 1960 census data was eventually
recovered even though it was initially thought to be lost.
The data was always there and available. My Aunt (an urban planner)
wrote two books using that data way back then, and often still uses
the data today. She says that the getting data from the Census people
has never really been a problem (except for 1890, of course).
The problem was that the Census Bureau and NARA used different
formats. I would bet that there also was a certain amount of petty
politics involved with the "losing" and "recovery".
--
Will
5267
days inactive
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22 comments
15 participants
participants (15)
-
als＠thangorodrim.de -
arcarlini＠iee.org -
c.murray.mccullough＠gmail.com -
cc＠informatik.uni-stuttgart.de -
cclist＠sydex.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
classiccmp＠philpem.me.uk -
ggs＠shiresoft.com -
hachti＠hachti.de -
pat＠computer-refuge.org -
ploopster＠gmail.com -
pu1bzz.listas＠gmail.com -
teoz＠neo.rr.com -
trixter＠oldskool.org -
wdonzelli＠gmail.com