If you have a PS/2-interface keyboard that you really like, spend some money on a real PS/2-to-USB *converter*, not just a connector adapter (which most cheap ones are). The pckeyboard site has some suggestions. There's really no reason that a real adapter can't be every bit as good as a native USB keyboard. --Chuck

On Sat, 5 Nov 2011, David Riley wrote: clickykeyboards.com sells ps2-to-usb converters known to be true converters and not stupid passive things. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

On Nov 5, 2011, at 6:59 PM, Jason McBrien wrote: My Chinese isn't so good. What's the error message say when I try to order? Otherwise, that's about the kind of keyboard I'd be looking for. Das Keyboard looks nice, but expensive (probably worth the investment, though). - Dave

On 5 Nov 2011 at 21:49, Jules Richardson wrote: You may want to peek inside to see if there are any active devices in your converter. Most are purely passive--and there's the rub. --Chuck

On Nov 6, 2011, at 12:30 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: That's exactly right. There's nothing wrong per se with the passive converters (the ones that convert USB to PS/2, anyway), they're just not really "converters". The problem you run into is that the cheaply-developed firmware in the keyboards themselves doesn't make for a particularly good PS/2 keyboard. To convert something that's actually PS/2 (or, more accurately, AT keyboard, since that's all that's going over those PS/2 lines for a keyboard anyway) to USB, it has to be something active since USB is considerably more complex than any older bus. You wouldn't just plug an RS-232 console on an RJ45 jack into Ethernet and expect it to work, either; they're fundamentally different communications systems. - Dave

On 6 Nov 2011 at 19:47, Tony Duell wrote: It can't. But maybe I wasn't following the thread closely enough. But a good active converter should be every bit as good as a native USB keyboard. Over at http://www.obdev.at/products/vusb/prjhid.html, the AVR V-USB project site, there are a number of nifty low-cost AVR projects for various keyboard USB projects, including replacing the electronics of a Model M with a custom board, adapting a Sparc Station keyboard, a RS232C serial terminal keyboard, a C64 keyboard...to USB. I've been thinking of doing one of the Model M changes myself--it appears to be a reversible modification. Just more grist for the mental mill. --Chuck

Chuck Guzis wrote: Cool! I've got an IBM Model M part number 1389194, which is an APL keyboard for a 3192 terminal, with a not-quite-AT interface. I've wanted to modify it into a USB keyboard. Looks like Chris Lee has done all the hard work for me. The 31xx terminals implement a subset of the AT/PS2 protocol. They have a different 5-pin full-size DIN connector with different wiring than the AT, though they are electrically compatible so you can make a wiring adapter. However, they only have scancode set 3, so they need a hacked keyboard driver to work with normal PC software. They won't work with any USB adapter I've found. The main thing I don't like about the 31xx keyboard layout is that the cursor pad is a cross rather than an inverted T. I'll solve that by remapping to swap the center and down buttons. The USB HID Usage Tables define IDs for function keys up to F24, but the IBM 122-key keyboards have another 10 keys to the left of the main keyboard. There are standard IDs for some of them, like CrSel, but I'm not sure whether there's a standard mapping for others.

On 7 Nov 2011 at 20:50, Tony Duell wrote: The guy offers the artwork for a replacement PCB that mounts in the Model M; he's done the programming--the job is essentially a solder- ti-togethere-and-program-the-AVR no-brainer. I can buy AT-to-PS/2 converters; some might even work correctly. Why would I want to build one? --Chuck

On 7 Nov 2011 at 15:55, Chris Halarewich wrote: Isn't that the selfsame one that clickykeyboards talks about? http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/11298 /subcatid/0/id/124184 How about a good USB to PS/2 adapter? --Chuck

On 7 Nov 2011 at 17:07, Chris Halarewich wrote: Yup. Believe it or not, I have no systems that *require* a USB keyboard or mouse. One of these days when I see a need for one, maybe. --Chuck

Because 'some might even work correctly', implying that some do not. If you deisng it yourself, it's going to work correctly. And it's going to be built correctly. That's quite apart from the education you get designign and building soemthing like that (OK, you know how to do it, there are plenty who would learn by doing soemthing like that). -tony

Tony wrote: cctech at vax-11.org wrote: Not if it's a Model M keyboard, since it predated the USB interface by a decade. That's the point. Very old and very new PS/2 keyboards don't support the passive USB adapters.

Or it starts off looking for signals on the 2 non-power lines and decides based on what it sees there whether to go into USB or PS/2 mode. I am well aware of how passive converters can work if the device is designed for them. The problem is that we're talking about the Model M keyboard, which IIRC was designed in the mid 1980s, long before USB was thoguth of. I don't see how a passive converter could work with that keyboard (in fact I am sure it can't) -tony

On 7 Nov 2011 at 23:14, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: While I like the feel of the Model M, I really don't like the key arrangement. My favorite keyboard is an old NCR made-by-Cherry model. Function keys down the left side and (20) across the top (they manifest as shift and alt-F1-F10. Cursor pad is a cross, not an inverted T. Very smooth feel and much quieter than the Model M. Are new Cherry keyboards like this? Someone told me that they were garbage. --Chuck

You could do the 3D printing yourself, really. Building a 3D printer isn't that expensive anymore and has a million+1 uses. -- "Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot." --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the "don't be evil" mantra.

Mark Benson wrote: Actually the inexpensive 3D printing processes use ABS plastic, which is quite good for production use. The extruded ABS doesn't end up with exactly the same properties as molded ABS, but it's close enough for many applications. That's easier than the case. The PCB is CNC milled from a single-sided copper-clad PCB. The metal baseplate for the keyboard is also milled.

On Tue, 8 Nov 2011 17:49:41 +0000 Mark Benson <md.benson at gmail.com> wrote: Yes. The 3D printed stuff doesn't have the properties like moulded plastic. But it is astonishing robust and durable. The surface is a bit brittle. At $WORK we use 3D printed parts for constructing test fixtures. The problem with the surface is easy to fix: Grind and varnish. Previously those parts where CNC milled out of aluminium. But that is much more expensive. If the 3D printed stuff is porous, you can immerse it in epoxy resin to strengthen it. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}

I wrote: Mark Benson wrote: [as compared to molding] Actual, it turns out the fused deposition process results in material with strength, durability, and impact resistance that aren't that much different than molding. with these systems. I think Stratsys has some white papers on the subject. About PCBs: has The layout process can be easily automated. The arrangement of the key matrix can be arbitrary since it can be remapped by a table in the microcontroller firmware, so automated layout isn't nearly as hard as the general case. One approach would be to generate XML files for input to Eagle 6, then let it autoroute. In general autorouters aren't very good, but for a simple problem like this they work fine. The software that sets up the PCB layout can also generate the lookup table for the firmware. Testing has to be done, but that can be automated also, using a simple cartesian robot driven by software using tables generated from the layout. Could be the same robot that does the pick-and-place for the keyswitches. Relatively simple software could automate the entire process, such that it would only need a minimally trained person to put the raw feedstock into the machines, transfer subassemblies from one machine to another, and assemble the finished electronics into the case. It's not a trivial project to generate the required software, but it's not rocket science either. No part of it requires any research or any development of new algorithms. Eric

On 8 Nov 2011 at 8:55, Eric Smith wrote: Why not standardize the "undercarriage", if you will? An 8-by-28 (or something like that) key PCB and overlying metal frame, where one simply snaps in the keyswitches in the positions one desires? This followed by USB programming from the host dictating what key is where. Remember that old keyboards used a 44-pin DIP as the controller and that you'd be going to an SMT package, so there are lots of I/O lines available for the expanded matrix. The top bezel could be molded in such a way to have scoring lines molded into the underside. The user could simply cut, using a utility knife, along the score lines to have the bezel match his layout. Should he desire to change the layout, it'd be a simple matter of moving old switches and cutting a new top bezel (should be inexpensive enough). Or does this sort of "kit keyboard" already exist? One thing I miss from the old George Risk keyboards is switches that are calibrated to respond to a certain force, so that function and other special keys take a bit more force to activate. --Chuck

On 8 Nov 2011 at 14:17, Eric Smith wrote: It looks as if the standard keyboards are on a 1/5-1/6 key stagger row to row. Non-alpha keys are always wider than alpha ones, so simply moving the place where the keyswitch shaft is located relative to the keycap should handle that. Eualizer bars for the wide keys, of course, will be needed in any case. If you want a good switch, use a magnetic reed switch. George Risk is still in business (some of their PC keyboards are very nice indeed): http://www.grisk.com/pushbutton/series_kblp.html Interestingly, GRI still makes the calibrated reed switch used on my old RCA Spectra 70 keyboard from the 1960's. --Chuck

On Nov 8, 2011, at 10:12 AM, schoedel at kw.igs.net wrote: A lot of higher-end keyboards (again, Das Keyboard comes to mind) that offer bucking springs also offer a high-quality Cherry alternative that's (theoretically) almost as nice while being about an order of magnitude quieter. The stem colors typically indicate slightly different actions; they make several different ones with different response curves for different preferences. It's almost enough to make one want a keyboard sommelier! - Dave

Adam Sampson wrote: That's exactly* the one I have; does your setup ever cough out repeated keystrokes? If not it might suggest that my converter is fine and I should be looking elsewhere (if I can ever motivate myself to do so) for the source of the problem - well, unless there's some subtle timing / signal level issue at play (my Model M's an early one without the status LEDs; perhaps there was a minor change in the components or firmware on later ones, rather than there being something actually "broken" in my setup) * product string of "USBPS2", Vendor 0d3d, revision 0.01 cheers Jules

On 7 Nov 2011 at 15:55, Adam Sampson wrote: clickykeyboards Good point, though. I wonder if the clickykeyboards figure is with all LEDs illuminated. I can see that some of the various PCBs used with the keyboard might draw more current. --Chuck

On Mon, 7 Nov 2011, Jules Richardson wrote: You might want to consider a simple modification that reduces the current draw. Just add some pullup resistors to the clock and data lines. I think someone else mentioned this too. See http://ps-2.kev009.com:8081/ohlandl/keyboard/modify_keyboard/Model_M_Modifi… for a discussion on that mod. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

David Griffith wrote: Hmm, thanks for that - that's interesting, because my keyboard's done the "lock up" thing on a (very small) handful of occasions, too. Unplugging the converter and plugging it back in has always cured it (until the next time) and I'd always assumed that it was a mechanical issue - i.e. that I'd accidentally disturbed cables at the rear of the PC and dislodged it (the converter's a little bulky so rubs against various other cables, not to mention that the M's keyboard cable is quite a heavy thing to have hanging from something that's plugged into a vertical USB socket) Maybe the fault is related to the occasional "repeated keys" phenomenon, though. cheers Jules

On 7 Nov 2011 at 18:18, Pete Turnbull wrote: You may want to try adding pullups for the clock and data lines out of the keyboard. 4K7 should be just fine. Just a hunch, nothing more. --Chuck

Well, my own favourite, the Sun type-3, has a 2x5 array of function keys to the left of the main body and a 3x5 array to the right. But the 3x5 array is not a numeric keypad (no digits marked on them, for example) and occupies less physical space than the typical peecee seven columns plus a gap (three columns for pgup/pgdn/ins/del/home/end and the arrow keys, gap, four columns for the numeric keypad). I'm not sure I'd call it "modern", though, and if you're looking for an "'AT'-like" layout then it may not work for you in any case - I don't know peecee keyboards, even classic ones, enough to know what "AT-like" means in keyboard layout.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

Well, in this case it followed remarks about physical space, so I think Mark probably was talking about the physical layout of the keys rather than anything bearing on the connector, either mechanically or electrically. Indeed. :) That sort of knowledge always comes in handy eventually. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

On Sun, 6 Nov 2011, Mark Benson wrote: That's weird. I routinely send stuff about the same weight to the UK and Australia and it costs only around 35 dollars by USPS Priority. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?