On 7/21/2006 at 12:30 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: We call them "card-carrying union members" here. :) Cheers, Chuck

Tony Duell wrote: Tony, An electrician would be an officially trained skilled trades person that works on electrical equipment. Building maintenance people may be skilled trades, or some Joe Schmoe handy man type..... depends on the company or organization doing the hiring. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA

Teo Zenios wrote: See there's that word again "electrician". An electrician is a skilled trade with an apprenticeship. A handyman could be anybody with a screwdriver! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA

Patrick Finnegan wrote: Pat, My point is that an electrician has formal training for the trade, and a handyman type maintenance person does not. A friend of mine, was attending the local community college for his electrical training while working under a local electrical contractor for his apprenticeship. I don't have any reason to believe that the contractor was union. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA

On Friday 21 July 2006 17:51, Don Y wrote: What I was intending (but worded poorly) was that having an apprenticship isn't generally required for being an electrician, but I do see your point. You're speaking of an "Electrician" and I'm speaking of "someone you pay to do electrical work under an appropriate building permit." 'round here, I'm pretty sure it's the later. Personally, I've never gone through an appprenticeship (but have had some direction, and have experience), and am a lot better electrician than most of the ones in the are... It pisses me off immensely when I find somewhere that the electrician reversed hot and neutral... the most annoying so far was a lightswitch, where the idiot that built the place switched neutral instead of hot. That made the simple act of changing a broken lightbulb a dangerous proposition... FWIW, as a student employee at Purdue, I did a fair amount of electrical installation work (an 'electrician' not 'Electrician'). I think it has a lot to do with who you work for (and their requirements), or if you're a union member. I think there's a HUGE gap between the requirements for being an electrician or an MD... Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org

On 7/21/2006 at 6:42 PM Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote: The funny thing is that usually for industrial plant electricians sometimes have LESS training than do the residential ones--yet industrial wiring can be much more involved. Back in my wasted youth working in a steel mill, I saw an electrician hook up a water cooler (drinking fountain) to 250vdc. About the smallest fuse used around there was 30 amps--and there was a bewildering variety of voltages (110, 115, 208, 220, 230, 440, 660...), phases (1 or 3) and frequencies (25 Hz, 60 Hz or DC). The electrician sent the slagged cooler back as a "manufacturing defect--failed on power-on"... Cheers, Chuck

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: Even some electric company installers not knowing the difference between delta and Y three phase PG&E replaced the 11/70 on the condition that those present went along with the lie that there had been a lightning strike.

Now you know the difference between a DEC and an IBM. The DEC smokes and burns, and the IBM just says "no, you don't". -- Will

Actually, most IBM stuff that uses three phase has a phase rotation sensor inside, as well as voltage sensing, so if something is not right, the machine will Power Check. -- Will

Patrick Finnegan wrote: Some places won't let you do the work. Though sometimes there are Electricians that you can hire for greatly reduced rates who will look the other way while YOU do the work (no tie-ins) and will come out and give it a good looking over before representing it as *their* work to the Inspector. Yup. I've seen reversed hot/neutral, ungrounded outlets/fixtures, outlets wired across the two hot legs (fried a refrigerator that way!) etc. But, in residences, you can't always be sure it was an Electrician who screwed up. Some places that require licensed Electricians to do work ALSO have back doors that let homeowners (*the* homeowner, not his sibling, etc.) do work on their own residences. I've seen ceiling fans on 8' ceilings (d'uh), 20A circuits on 14AWG, duplex outlets on "dedicated" circuits, ROMEX on outdoor circuits too close to the ground, etc. I.e. the sorts of things that an electrician *should* be aware of but that a homeowner wouldn't even *think* about having "requirements". My Uncle was a licensed Electrician -- actually, I had three such uncles -- so I got exposed to a lot of this as a kid. One used to strip wires with his *thumbnail* (ouch! hurts to even think about it!). I've got great old-fashioned "continuity testers" and a "mechanical voltmeter" (a magnet pulls against a spring to give you an indication of 110, 220, etc.) in neat bakelite cases. Amazing that they haven't been dropped, etc. and broken in the past 50 years... But, presumably, there are requirements imposed by local agencies as well? My point was that you can't BECOME an MD without that "step". Is there a similar "requirement" for "Electricians"?

On Friday 21 July 2006 05:51 pm, Don Y wrote: I think that this is something that will vary a great deal from one locale to another. When I lived in the NYC area you couldn't work at that unless you had a license, and the only way to get a license was to apprentice to somebody who did. But NYC has some pretty tight restrictions in other respects anyhow, no romex ferinstance -- you use BX for smaller structures or conduit for anything three stories or taller. They also have the situation pretty screwed up in other respects as well. I lived in Westchester County, right outside The City, and there was a guy I knew there who was in the trade but not able to find work. While they were crying for people in The City. I don't know if it was a union thing or what but he was _not_ allowed to cross that line for some reason. OTOH, around here there are no licensing requirements. I've done some work of that sort, and so has my brother (a great deal more than I have, in fact). The only place that requires a license is the City of Harrisburg, but I don't need to go there. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin

der Mouse wrote: The only thing I can say to that, is that idiots are everywhere in every field. Also people that just don't care and only think about what's easier for them, when doing a job. Be careful here....."professionally" just means they paid to do it. It doesn't mean they have any kind of license or training. In a lot of fields, all it takes to becomes a professional is a truck, a phone number, and a product to install/sell. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA