At 10:38 AM 12/23/04 -0600, you wrote: printer ? I doubt McMaster Carr will be of any help. You have to have an account with them AND a tax number before they'll sell to you. And that's even if you walk into one of their locations. I doubt they'd even talk to you if they knew that you're in Europe. Try Stock Drive Components or Florida Belting. I've bought belts from Florida Belting and had good success with them but I don't know if they're on the web. If you'll send me a message after Christmas and remind me I'll give them a call and see if they have the right belt (almost certain) and if they'll ship to Europe. Joe

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004, Joe R. wrote: Um, that's just the opposite of my own experience - I buy from them all the time - just got a roll of magnet wire in to re-build a motor - gave 'em my credit-card and shipping address and it showed up the next day. Ditto with the cool little Whitney-Roper hand metal-punch kit. Ditto with the timer for my little pressure-washer. You sure you aren't thinking Grainger? Those boys can be obtuse when they want to. But I've never had a bit of the trouble you relate, with McMaster, for many years now. Strange... Stock Drive Components is a great outfit, and have a lot of the more obscure stuff that is sometimes needed in restoring Old Gear. Cheers John

The '68 chevy didn't use a timing belt, it used a timing chain. Just like all the REAL American cars! Personally I wish they all still did. I hate these stupid rubber timing belts! All they're good for is generating revenue for the delaers when they slip or break and you end having to buy half of a new engine or a new car. Joe At 04:33 PM 12/23/04 -0800, you wrote: http://news.computercollector.com

On Fri, 2004-12-24 at 10:13 -0500, james wrote: My '72 Triumph's lubricates the chains primarily through tiny holes in the tensioners; component wear tends to be less of an issue than any contamination to the oil supply which could block the holes. Chain replacement interval is 15k miles too (whereas most modern belts will do 30k or more). Belts or chains isn't really an issue - both have their strengths and weaknesses. Providing replacement's done within the service interval (and in anything other than a mid-engined car it tends to be an easy and cheap DIY job!) there shouldn't be any problems unless something else is seriously wrong with the engine which is causing extra stress or premature wear... Hmm, to keep this vaguely on topic I should post a picture up somewhere of the oil lubrication system on John Harper's Bombe rebuild at Bletchley sometime; the engineering's pretty incredible stuff. cheers Jules

Most modern engines use the interference type design. I had a belt that had less than 1000 miles jump and it cost me over $1200 to get the engine fixed (and that was in 1987!) I also had another engine ruined when the crankshaft dampener couldn't be tighten enough to prevent it working loose after changing the rubber belt. The car was eventually junked even though it and the engine were in perfect condition EXCEPT for the damaged crankshaft, keyway, key and dampener. Neither one of these problems would have ever happened with a timing chain ! Joe At 10:00 PM 12/24/04 -0500, you wrote:

Ummm, I started the off-topicness here, so I'll try to end it by putting forward these questions: - What is the most odd computer you've encountered in a car's drivetrain? - What is the largest computer you've fit into a car? - What is the computer that gave Jay a flat tire en route to VCF East this year? --- Gordon JC Pearce <gordon(a)gjcp.net> wrote: ===== Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter! -- It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address -- Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us -- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all Visit our web site for lots of extra content: http://news.computercollector.com Contact us at news(a)computercollector.com 620 readers and counting!

On Sat, 25 Dec 2004, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: Well I carried a Varian 622/I mini in the trunk of my 1970 AMC Hornet, if that counts. 4K core, optional hardware divide instruction installed.

On Sat, 25 Dec 2004, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: That's hard to top!

At 10:23 AM 12/25/04 +0000, you wrote: My '85 Nissan truck has something similar. I think most cars do. FWIW my '70 Plymouth Superbird did the same thing but much simpler. They simply put a electrical solenoid on the side of the carburator. With certain accessories (don't remember which ones) were on, power was applied to the solenoid and it's plunger raised up about 1/8" and pushed up the arm connected to the trottle on the carburator. Very simply and effective. Joe

My car, a 1963 Rambler Classic 550 Cross Country (aka "station wagon") originally had seven transistors in the radio, and two in the voltage regulator. As part of the LPG fuel conversion (I did in 1989) I added a "computer", which fits a 1963 definition of the word; it's basically a few opamps powering the servo loop that controls fuel mixture. Oxygen sensor in the exhaust tells the "computer" mixture error, which it adjusts by PWMing a solenoid applying engine vacuum to the pressure regulator (aka "convertor"). About 8 DIP packages. Autotronics 4045 or something (RTFM). I added a "late model" electronic ignition. Three transistors and a zener in there. Beats mechanical points all to hell. Another three transistors and a zener, in a so-called "one-wire" alternator. The stereo has ICs in it (dammit). It's all slightly crossed the border into too much complexity for me, aesthetically.

On Sat, 2004-12-25 at 01:52 -0800, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: Well, this isn't a car - but a good friend of mine had to sit on a heavily marketed new express train, "signatur", for hours because of "computer issues". Being the computer enthusiast he is, he went to look... What he saw was ...a Windows 95 "Illegal Instruction" dialog box.... The trains later needed repairs because the (what is the word... "aksel" .. cam shaft? The thing between the wheels :P) broke in two... I was not surprised... -- Tore S Bekkedal <toresbe(a)ifi.uio.no>

At 09:43 AM 12/25/04 +0000, you wrote: Tell me how it's supidity when you have a factory belt installed by a factory trained mechanic and it jumps timing with less than 1000 miles on the new belt and destroys half the engine! I'm waiting for an answer! That's what happened to me with my Nissan Maxima. The engine had to be removed from the car in order to remove the rear cylinder head. I had to replace values in both cylinder heads. The cost was over $1200 (in 1987!) I was just lucky that it didn't also ruin some of the pistons and/or cylinder heads. I've worked on hundreds of cars and I've NEVER seen anything like that on an engine with a timing chain. The chains will stretch and change the timing but they don't jump or break and destroy the engine. A new timing belt costs a tenner Hah! Just bought one for my Mitsubishi Diamonte. $170+ ! Plus 3.5 hours of labor at $99/hr. The last several that I've bought have all been over $100 except for the one for the Subaru and it was $80 something (ten years ago!) IIRC the one for the Maxima was $120+ in 1987! Also just had one changed on my daughter's Daewoo. They want you to replace all the related tensioners, pullys, etc at the same time. Those parts alone were almost $500!!! I was lucky in that the car still had 3000 miles left on the warrenty. The belt broke in that one at 57,000 miles and the cost to fix everything was over $1200. I still have the paper work and can show it to you if you don't believe me. In the mean time, my Nissan truck with a timing chain is still running fine at 158,000 miles! and even on an absolutely evil b*st*rd of an engine to work I wish you'd come do the belt in my Mitsubishi! I'd PAY to see someone change it's belt in 1/2 hour! Joe

On Sun, 26 Dec 2004, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: In the mid to late 1970's, Honda was non-interference. Less than one in a hundred broken cambelts involved other engine damage. I once did a cambelt on a civic on the freeway shoulder, with no tools but a swiss army knife and a 5WR Vise-grip. ... and still managed to get out of there before the Caltrans tow truck arrived. I'm sorry to hear that they're now interference. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com

Gordon JC Pearce wrote: That's called an interference engine. Do these engines sit transversely in a front wheel drive (fwd) car? Most cars here are fwd, and have the engines positioned transversely. A lot of times you will have to disconnect at least one of the engine mounts and lift the engine up. Also, since it's bound to be an overhead cam engine, the accessorys will have to come off. I don't know too much about chains used with overhead cams, but on push rod engines this doesn't happen until many miles are on the vehicle. The only problem I've had with a chain, actually was the top timing gear, not the chain itself. It was on my 69 Buick LeSabre. The top gear was aluminum with nylon or plastic teeth. They stripped off, while on the highway. This happened in 1995, so the car was about 26 years old, with 100K miles on it. I thought the gear design was dumb, but I assume it was done for sound or vibration purposes. I know GM may not rank very high with the Europeans on the list, but it's one of my favorite cars that I've owned. I did have belt problems once on my 1982 Dodge with a 2.2L engine. I got it wet in the snow, since I plowed into a snowbank, with the plastic cover off. I had a heck of a time getting it back into position, after it skipped. I didn't really know how to get the belt around the tensioner, cam pulley, and crank pulley with out throwing the timing off. I was probably sick and tired of working on the car, in the cold, and ran out of patience. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA

Tony Duell wrote: I *think* the CX 2.5 diesel uses a timing belt for the injector pump and a cam chain for the cam and auxiliary drive (the camshaft projects through the bellhousing end, and the alternator, hydraulic pump and aircon pump are mounted above the gearbox). Gordon.

Chrysler 2.2L and 2.5L (both four inline) aren't interference engine. And runs long timing belt. A good mechanic can do this on 2.2/2.5 also. Partially drain coolant, you'll see later. Take both belts (one runs PS, other belt runs alternator & water pump) or three if equipped with A/C. Now remove bolts and two nuts (all 10mm) for both upper and lower covers. On earlier 2.2 (before mid 87) external trox socket to remove crankshaft pulley bolts (four), later 87 used regular bolts. Now lower cover falls off. Take a car jack that came with that car and piece of wood to protect oil pan, jack up the engine to take load off the right side engine mount. Undo the nut and yoke bolt & nut, remove two bolts on the inner fender then remove mount. Undo the bolt on the eccentric tensioner to get it rotated away and lightly tighten to keep it there. Align marks according to the service manual, intermediate spocket turns too freely makes this job tricky while putting new belt on. Line up the groove on flywheel to 0 deg (TDC), line the cam spocket with arrows evenly with parting line on head with small hole uppermost. Rotate the intermediate spocket that it's nick in rim of spocket is pointing to tiny drilled hole in edge of the crankshaft spocket. Tension the belt with weighted tool or twist belt longest side almost 90 to check tension. Manually turn over engine 2 turns and recheck alignment and retension belt again. Reassemble in reverse order. This what I did on my 1987 caravan 2.2L carb. That's true, it depends on user to do regular oil changes and quality of design originally. For example, mitsubishi 2.6 is very fussy on maintaince. But even with good care the guides are covered with nylon wears through then wears through aluminum guide like no tomorrow and bam, balance shafts stops rotating that oil pump and engine self-destructs with oil pressure loss. Chain tensioning is done with oil pressure. This 2.6 mitsu has two long chains because of balance shafts far apart and camshaft is on top of head. Mitsu currently uses their quirky designs in later engines and more involved compared to others unlike Citroen is bit quirky. V6 3.0L is one another quirky engine to work on. Water pump driven by timing belt and to do this job repair, everything on front end of engine has to come off and have to replace water pipes to prevent coolant leaks because old ones is rusted. Chain is still used on some modern engine with overhead chains even some used a short length of chain to turn twin cam, either driven by belt or chain. I really like push rods for that design, and I really don't see the reason that chrsyler engineers (allpar.com has artcles on this) had to use belt on 2.2 & 2.5L due to weight issues. WTF!? Noise reasons that most makers went with nylon coated spockets or gears. Time had progressed that they went back to all metal since understanding in making quiet drive trains. Fibre gears is rather durable compared to nylon for their time but heat & wear equally destroys the wear resistance on both types of composite drive trains. Tsk tsk... now you know better to keep covers in place, that's the major reason. I had to go to junkyard to get upper cover for mine or That's true still. Some are not that special, just make a flat tool to tension off the assy belt or put belt back on on chrysler 3.3 & 3.8L engine, oh yes real old fashioned push rod engines with short chain, all metal spockets. Rather reliable. Cheers, Wizard

Great you liked that engine. It is so strong that mopar and owners tinkered with them and many are capable of excess of 300HP to 400HP ranges. Not too much really. Use stamped steel or cast aluminum with good seal design to keep weight down and a redesigned oil pan and valve cover to seal both front end of pan to the chain cover. Those two big belt spockets are heavy and made of sintered metal. Both front and rear sides on these blocks are milled flat, would be nice spot for simple chain cover to seal with, different right side mount design and spacers to take care of different cover. Cheers, Wizard

Joe R. wrote: Relatively common failure on Citroen 2.1 diesels as fitted to the XM. Funny thing is that the 1.7 and 1.9 version as fitted to BXes, Peugeots, Renaults and some Volvos are mostly unaffected. Change the timing belt and within a few thousand miles you can almost guarantee you'll have a leaking water pump. Gordon.

Gordon JC Pearce wrote: I don't think many GM engines do. I've never noticed it being loud in my Buick, now that I have all steel. Actually, what I put in my Buick is that pressed powdered metal stuff. The loudest I've heard is an aftermarket gear drive. It whines like a roots supercharger. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA

Tom Jennings wrote: You mean a chain? I've never seen a steel belt used. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA

On Sat, 2004-12-25 at 09:43 +0000, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: To be fair there most of the breakages in the old days were down to the awful quality control at Triumph; they left a lot of silt in the block as part of the casting process which eventually blocked the oil feeds to the chains, causing them to overheat and fail. In more modern times there have been a lot of substandard-quality repro chains about (you get what you pay for and all that) which are prone to stretch and break. Know what to look for and it's a solid enough design. The tensioners should pick up the slack on the 'undriven' side of the chain so there's no slop, but yep crank-cam timing will alter slightly as chains and sprockets wear. Good chains don't stretch, they just wear. IME it can't be more than about a degree out; much more than that and the wear would be sufficient to induce chain or sprocket failure anyway. That seems like a sensible way of doing it. I take it the Essex is quite a flat vee design? (just thinking about the Stag engine which is 90 degrees and there's a hell of a distance between crank and cams) cheers Jules