18 May
2014
18 May
'14
10:57 a.m.
On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 8:42 AM, <cctalk-request at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Message: 6
Date: Fri, 16 May 2014 21:06:32 +0100 (BST)
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Buying something from a museum (was Re: Whats in a
straight 8
Message-ID: <m1WlOOs-000J4ZC at p850ug1>
Content-Type: text/plain
[Telecopier RX400]
[snip]
Incidnetlaly, the last tiem I went ot the London science museum I left in
tears. Not jsut becuase there is so little there. Or that the
descriptions are dumbed down, and in many cases give the wrong sort of
information (I do not mean the information is factually wrong, it is not.
But for example a Model 7 Avometer [1] is described as being mase of
Bakelite. This is true, but IMHO, the important thing about that
instrument is what it measues and how.Now what the case is made of. No my
real moand is that it is not a science meusum. There is far too much
about the human aspect of a artefact, and that is not science. One reason
I studeid science is that it is, in general, independant of people
(mathemantics is aguably independant of the universe, but I wasnt' clever
enough for that). When I think back to wha the museum was like 30-40
eyars ago, I weep.
I disagree strongly with your statement, "There is far too much about the
human aspect of a [sic] artefact, and that is not science." Technology is
a human behavior, and preserving the artifact (US spelling) but not its
cultural context is telling only a small part of the story. That is my
concern with much that is written as "computer history": it is purely about
the construction and functioning of an artifact but fails to convey that
contextual component. Such "internalist" histories are not without value,
but we do a disservice to the future if we stop there. Equally incomplete
are "externalist" histories that speak of nothing but social response to
technology without the context of providing the reader with an
understanding of the technology itself: this is seen often in hand-wringing
essays that demonize "the computer" as a source of all social ills. A
contextual account that relates both the nature of the technology and the
social context in which it is shaped, as well as how its creation shapes
the society in which it is created, is a basis for a meaningful and useful
discourse.
It is interesting to me that the majority of historical writing about the
computer is internalist (several historiographers have so noted and I
concur) and yet the "big story" of the computer is how it has changed human
society swiftly and dramatically. In contrast, the book "Technology's
Storytellers" analyses the first twenty years of the journal Technology &
Culture and finds that in a broad discussion of technology the majority of
work is contextual. Why do computer historians seem to describe but not
interpret?
Finally, a museum of technology may be a very different beast than a
classic, archival museum that puts things in cases and writes little signs
about them. Indeed, a museum of functional computers is a collection of
artifacts that speak in their own voices. Of the museums I have visited, I
feel TNMOC and the original IBM museum in Sindelfingen have done the best
job of recognizing and highlighting this. (I have not seen the IBM museum
since it moved, so I cannot comment on its current state.)
IMHO.
--
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS
Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School
University of Washington
Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
>
> 1) My machine origianlly had the fan/filter unit on the battom, but
this
was
remvoed by a previous owner. I am therefore missing the base plate.
Could tooul let me look at the udnersid of the machine, or tell me if
this plate is metal or plastic (or soemthing else) and if metal, is it
magnetic
I am pretty sure if the machine was in MOSI and in accessible storage
that would be possible.
Many items are in in-accessible storage....which is a different kettle
of fish... 
18 May
18 May
11:46 a.m.
I disagree strongly with your statement, "There
is far too much about the
human aspect of a [sic] artefact, and that is not science." Technology i
a human behavior, and preserving the artifact (US spelling) but not its
cultural context is telling only a small part of the story. That is my
concern with much that is written as "computer history": it is purely about
the construction and functioning of an artifact but fails to convey that
contextual component. Such "internalist" histories are not without value,
but we do a disservice to the future if we stop there. Equally incomplete
In general I agree with you. The cultural aspect of a technological
artefact _is_ important, but that be as it may, IMHO it is not science.
So yes, if you want to have museum which records the cultural aspect of a
partical technology (say 'computers'), that's fine. But don't call it a
science musuem. I guess my main complaint is not the such museums exist
(they cetainly shoudl do!), but that museums that actually describe the
science -- the 'how it works', the physical principles behiund it, etc
are very few and far between.
Finally, a museum of technology may be a very
different beast than a
classic, archival museum that puts things in cases and writes little signs
The problem is that IMHO the London Science Musuem is a parody of such
musuems. It puts artefacts in glass cases, gives nthe arty-farty lightign
so you can't see them properly, and has totally inadequate descriptions
of them.
There are very few wrking models now (when I was younger there were many,
not necessarily historic artefacts, but often models specifically made to
illustrate how said artefact worked ans was used). It really is a total
disapointment for me.
-tony
1:43 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Tony Duell
Sent: 18 May 2014 19:46
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Purpose of a museum (was Re: Buying something from a museum)
artefact _is_
I disagree strongly with your statement,
"There is far too much about
the human aspect of a [sic] artefact, and that is not science."
Technology i a human behavior, and preserving the artifact (US
spelling) but not its cultural context is telling only a small part of
the story. That is my concern with much that is written as "computer
history": it is purely about the construction and functioning of an
artifact but fails to convey that contextual component. Such
"internalist" histories are not without value, but we do a disservice
to the future if we stop there. Equally incomplete
In general I agree with you. The cultural aspect of a technological important, but that be as it may, IMHO it is not
science.
So yes, if you want to have museum which records the cultural aspect of a
partical technology (say 'computers'), that's fine. But don't call it a
science
musuem. I guess my main complaint is not the such
museums exist (they
cetainly shoudl do!), but that museums that actually describe the science
-- the
'how it works', the physical principles
behiund it, etc are very few and
far
between.
so you
Finally, a museum of technology may be a very
different beast than a
classic, archival museum that puts things in cases and writes little
signs
The problem is that IMHO the London Science Musuem is a parody of such
musuems. It puts artefacts in glass cases, gives nthe arty-farty lightign can't see them properly, and has totally
inadequate descriptions of them.
There are very few wrking models now (when I was younger there were many,
not necessarily historic artefacts, but often models specifically made to
illustrate how said artefact worked ans was used). It really is a total
disapointment for me.
I still remember my school trip to the London Science Museum, in the early
70's. I loved all those models. I have not been since, have those models all
gone? That really would be a disappointment.
Regards
Rob
19 May
19 May
2:22 p.m.
I still remember my school trip to the London Science
Museum, in the early
70's. I loved all those models. I have not been since, have those models all
gone? That really would be a disappointment.
Firstly, let me say tha I do not beleive that the models have been
destroyed or sold. I would hope they're in store somewhere. But they are
no longer on public display at South Kensington.
And OK, 'all' is an exageration. 'Most' would be more accurate...
There are still a few steam angine models just inside the entrance, but
nothing like the collection there used to be. Other things to no longer
be on display are the railway locomotices (there used to be a GWR Castle
(I think) alongside a Deltic [1], the electical stuff on the groudn
fololor (like the mercury arc rectifiers, I remember those), the
'measurment' gallery (which used to show old standard of wight, volume,
etc, quite why that was removed from a _science_ museum is beyond me),
the lighting gallery (lovely arc lamps, a cooper-hewitt mercury lamp,
etc), the lovely machine shop models on the 1st floor, the chemisrty
sutff, the p[rinting presses, the aeroplanes nad aero engines, etc, etc.
All gone :-( The children's gallery in the basement is much recduced,
replaced by 'the secret life of the home' -- domestic applianced, etc.
Not well descrivbed, and quite hwat a set of vibrating rods with rubber
hot watter botlles o t hem fixed ot the ceiling is supposed to show is
beyond me. It's hard to see what has remained.
Well, there is still teh computing gallery, a few more things have been
added, but nothing oepraitonal. Last time I visitied the timekeeping
galelry has not been touched (but I am told it will be soon). There is a
_tony_ communicatons gallery, not a patch o nthe old 'Gallery 66' [2] --
this must be the only science meusuem communciations gallery which
doesn't mention modulation or demopdulation (or anythign equivalent to
them).
[1] The Deltic had a rather odd diesel engine with 3 crankshafts at the
corners of ana equilateral triange, cylinders, each containing 2 opposing
pistons along the sides.
[2] The old comms gallery had some lovely stuff. The yeven had a
demonstation amateur ratio station with the callsign G2SM (IIRC), which
was operated most days.
Also gone are the lectures AFIAK. About 4 years ago there were free
lectures with damonstations on most saturday afternoons. Not any more....
-tony
22 May
22 May
1:48 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Tony Duell
Sent: 19 May 2014 22:22
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Purpose of a museum (was Re: Buying something from a museum)
destroyed or
I still remember my school trip to the London
Science Museum, in the
early 70's. I loved all those models. I have not been since, have
those models all gone? That really would be a disappointment.
Firstly, let me say tha I do not beleive that the models have been sold. I would hope they're in store somewhere. But
they are no longer on
public
display at South Kensington.
And OK, 'all' is an exageration. 'Most' would be more accurate...
There are still a few steam angine models just inside the entrance, but
nothing
like the collection there used to be. Other things to
no longer be on
display are
the railway locomotices (there used to be a GWR Castle
(I think) alongside
a
Deltic [1], the electical stuff on the groudn fololor
(like the mercury
arc
rectifiers, I remember those), the
'measurment' gallery (which used to
show
old standard of wight, volume, etc, quite why that was
removed from a
_science_ museum is beyond me), the lighting gallery (lovely arc lamps, a
cooper-hewitt mercury lamp, etc), the lovely machine shop models on the
1st
floor, the chemisrty sutff, the p[rinting presses, the
aeroplanes nad aero
engines, etc, etc.
All gone :-(
Have you visited MOSI at all? I haven't been recently, but they have lots of
stationary steam engines which are often in steam, I could spend hours
watching those. They also have lots of locomotives and aircraft too, but
most of those are not operational. I am sure Dave could give you a more up
to date status on all those things though.
The children's gallery in the basement is much
recduced, replaced
by 'the secret life of the home' -- domestic applianced, etc.
Not well descrivbed, and quite hwat a set of vibrating rods with rubber
hot
watter botlles o t hem fixed ot the ceiling is
supposed to show is beyond
me. It's
hard to see what has remained.
Well, there is still teh computing gallery, a few more things have been
added,
but nothing oepraitonal. Last time I visitied the
timekeeping galelry has
not
been touched (but I am told it will be soon). There is
a _tony_
communicatons
gallery, not a patch o nthe old 'Gallery 66'
[2] -- this must be the only
science
meusuem communciations gallery which doesn't
mention modulation or
demopdulation (or anythign equivalent to them).
[1] The Deltic had a rather odd diesel engine with 3 crankshafts at the
corners
of ana equilateral triange, cylinders, each containing
2 opposing pistons
along
the sides.
[2] The old comms gallery had some lovely stuff. The yeven had a
demonstation
amateur ratio station with the callsign G2SM (IIRC),
which was operated
most
days.
Also gone are the lectures AFIAK. About 4 years ago there were free
lectures
with damonstations on most saturday afternoons. Not
any more....
-tony
2:37 p.m.
Have you visited MOSI at all? I haven't been
recently, but they have lots of
Is that the one in Manchester? I visitied it once about 10 years ago. I
didn't have very long there and of course I spent most of the time
looking at the Manchester Mark 1 reproduction.
stationary steam engines which are often in steam, I
could spend hours
watching those. They also have lots of locomotives and aircraft too, but
Sure. There are many museums (and of course preserved railways) where
steam angines are still run in steam. My point is that there are not that
many still in the London musuem. In fact it's hard to think just what
_is_ in the London musuem.
-tony
3:20 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Tony Duell
Sent: 22 May 2014 22:38
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Purpose of a museum (was Re: Buying something from a museum)
didn't
Have you visited MOSI at all? I haven't been
recently, but they have
lots of
Is that the one in Manchester? I visitied it once about 10 years ago. I have very long there and of course I spent most of the
time looking at the
Manchester Mark 1 reproduction.
Yes, it is the Manchester Museum of Science and Industry and it is part of
the same group as the Science Museum. See
http://www.mosi.org.uk/about-us/smg-a-family-of-museums.aspx
stationary steam engines which are often in
steam, I could spend hours
watching those. They also have lots of locomotives and aircraft too,
but
Sure. There are many museums (and of course preserved railways) where
steam angines are still run in steam. My point is that there are not that still in the London musuem. In fact it's hard to
think just what _is_ in
the London
musuem.
I suppose I was trying to say, that although London does not have these
things, other museums in the same group do. Not that that is any consolation
for those unlucky enough to live in London ;-)
Regards
Rob
3:01 p.m.
On 22/05/2014 21:48, Robert Jarratt wrote:
Have you visited MOSI at all? I haven't been
recently, but they have lots of
stationary steam engines which are often in steam, I could spend hours
watching those. They also have lots of locomotives and aircraft too, but
most of those are not operational. I am sure Dave could give you a more up
to date status on all those things though.
There was a long period when the Steam
Engines didn't run because the
boiler needed replacing, and there may be things that are currently not
being demonstrated due to a health and safety revue. This includes the
Hartree Differential Analyser pending the fitting of more emergency stop
buttons, so we get issues there as well.... They also have a Steam
Locomotive which is frequently in steam with rides available. For
computing they have the replica SSEM, or Baby. A valve computer with
Williams Tube stores.
I still think the best bit is the archives , I could spent days in there
ordering boxes of stuff. There are original glass slides and programming
sheets for the Hartree Differential Analyser. There are many documents
for Ferranti Computers, plus the PDP-8.
Yes there is some red tape and other issues, but in general its going
places...
Dave
G4UGM
23 May
23 May
3:01 p.m.
On 22/05/2014 21:48, Robert Jarratt wrote:
To be fair, when they had a large number of steam angines and models at
the London Science Musuem, very few were run 'in steam', A lot were
operated by rotating the flywheels eitehr with electric motors or with
hand knovs (on the smaller models), the latter were very educational to
me as I could watch the valve gear linkages as the thing was turned slowly.
There are of course many other msueums in Enland which have steam
engiens, some of which are runb in steam, orthers are rotate by an
electric motor or similar. I see nothing wrogn with the latter, provided
it's expaliend that is what is being done, it is certain;y preferable to
not seeign the hting move at all (or worse, not seing the enginer/model
even static).
Have you visited MOSI at all? I haven't been
recently, but they have lots of
stationary steam engines which are often in steam, I could spend hours
watching those. They also have lots of locomotives and aircraft too, but
most of those are not operational. I am sure Dave could give you a more up
to date status on all those things though.
There was a long period when the Steam
Engines didn't run because the
boiler needed replacing, and there may be things that are currently not being demonstrated due to a health and safety revue.
This includes the
Hartree Differential Analyser pending the fitting of more emergency stop
ARGH!. One does wonder how people maanged to survive 50 eyars ago...
buttons, so we get issues there as well.... They also
have a Steam
Locomotive which is frequently in steam with rides available. For
computing they have the replica SSEM, or Baby. A valve computer with
Williams Tube stores.
Are the scheamtics for the SSEM available anywhere (and if not, why not?) ?
-tony
3870
days inactive
3875
days old
8 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
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ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
dave.g4ugm＠gmail.com -
isking＠uw.edu -
robert.jarratt＠ntlworld.com