5 Aug
2006
5 Aug
'06
10:42 p.m.
I've recently inherited a ComputerVision CADDStation (basically a
rebadged Sun3 machine) and a pile of tapes of software for it from Scott
Quinn. Before I work on getting the machine up and running again, I
have two tasks I'd like to take care of, in no particular order:
1. Repairing the CADDStation's tape drive.
2. Archiving the tapes in a useful format.
For taking care of #1, as far as I can tell the drive works except for a
rubber wheel that's turned to this lovely gooey tar. I don't
necessarily _need_ to fix the drive, since I have a compatible
replacement, but I'd like to keep the system as original as possible so
if it's possible to fix without too much work I'd like to do that. The
tape drive in question is an Archive 5945S-1. Anyone have any idea how
feasible it is to find a replacement wheel for this drive? Any good
places to look that you'd recommend?
Regarding #2, I don't have an incredible amount of experience dealing
with tape, so I'm looking for suggestions for how best to archive these
tapes without losing any important information. I have a Linux machine
to which I can connect my spare tape drive in order to do the archiving,
it's just a matter of determining what's necessary on the software end
to make an accurate copy. The tapes all appear to be QIC-24, and
probably contain data in whatever format SunOS uses (since the
CADDStation basically runs a rebranded version of SunOS.)
Thanks for any suggestions!
Josh
6 Aug
6 Aug
1:29 p.m.
On Saturday 05 August 2006 10:42 pm, Josh Dersch wrote:
I've recently inherited a ComputerVision
CADDStation (basically a
rebadged Sun3 machine) and a pile of tapes of software for it from Scott
Quinn. Before I work on getting the machine up and running again, I
have two tasks I'd like to take care of, in no particular order:
1. Repairing the CADDStation's tape drive.
2. Archiving the tapes in a useful format.
For taking care of #1, as far as I can tell the drive works except for a
rubber wheel that's turned to this lovely gooey tar.
<...>
Anyone have any idea how feasible it is to find a
replacement wheel for this
drive? Any good places to look that you'd recommend?
It's been a really long time since I looked, but there were companies that
used to sell all sorts of belts and rubber wheels and such for a lot of
equipment that used such. I know that VCRs used to have several of both,
for example. I was pleasantly surprised a while back when, finding that our
answering machine had quite working, I went to our local electronics
wholesaler and was able to walk in and buy a couple of belts for it to
replace the ones that were in there, which I'd last changed somewhere back
around 1986 or so...
You might try MCM electronics, as one possibility, though there are no doubt
other suppliers as well that do mail-order.
Those suppliers do have cross-reference materials available, though it's
primarily oriented toward consumer equipment.
<...>
The tapes all appear to be QIC-24,
Do any of you guys know where I might find a list or a web page or similar
that details what all those "QIC" numbers represent?
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
3:09 p.m.
On 8/6/2006 at 2:57 PM Segin wrote:
Roy J. Tellason wrote:
I'm afriad that you don't understand the issues. To produce an accurate
archive of a tape, one must preserve things such as block sizes, labels,
and filemarks. There are packages to do this, but tar isn't one of them.
While tapes are a one-dimensional medium, there's more variation in
physical structure than encountered on the typical disk.
Cheers,
Chuck
On Saturday 05 August 2006 10:42 pm, Josh Dersch
wrote:
>2. Archiving the tapes in a useful format.
tar anyone? 
7 Aug
7 Aug
8 a.m.
On Sun, 6 Aug 2006, Roy J. Tellason wrote:
It's been a really long time since I looked, but
there were companies that
used to sell all sorts of belts and rubber wheels and such for a lot of
equipment that used such. I know that VCRs used to have several of both,
for example. I was pleasantly surprised a while back when, finding that our
answering machine had quite working, I went to our local electronics
wholesaler and was able to walk in and buy a couple of belts for it to
replace the ones that were in there, which I'd last changed somewhere back
around 1986 or so...
You may be thinking of the late, lamented Projector-Recorder Belt Co.
They stocked (or could custom fabricate) belts and rollers for just about
anything. Unfortunately PRB seem to have disappeared sometime during the
90s. There's still something on the web that pertains to their
trade-name, but they do not seem reachable by phone or e-mail.
You might try MCM electronics, as one possibility,
though there are no doubt
other suppliers as well that do mail-order.
Those suppliers do have cross-reference materials available, though it's
primarily oriented toward consumer equipment.
True, but they cannot do 1-off custom. I have a handful of much-beloved
reel-to-reel audio tape decks and turntables in need of replacement
rubber. Is there anyone in the world tooled up for custom belts and
rollers anymore?
Steve
2:24 p.m.
On Monday 07 August 2006 08:00 am, Steven N. Hirsch wrote:
On Sun, 6 Aug 2006, Roy J. Tellason wrote:
I know I've heard that name before, for sure. There were others as well.
It's been a really long time since I looked,
but there were companies
that used to sell all sorts of belts and rubber wheels and such for a lot
of equipment that used such. I know that VCRs used to have several of
both, for example. I was pleasantly surprised a while back when,
finding that our answering machine had quite working, I went to our
local electronics wholesaler and was able to walk in and buy a couple of
belts for it to replace the ones that were in there, which I'd last
changed somewhere back around 1986 or so...
You may be thinking of the late, lamented Projector-Recorder Belt Co. They stocked (or could custom fabricate) belts and
rollers for just about
anything. Unfortunately PRB seem to have disappeared sometime during the
90s. There's still something on the web that pertains to their
trade-name, but they do not seem reachable by phone or e-mail.
I don't know any offhand, but have you checked MCM to see if possibly such an
item is available as a stock part? As I said above, it's been a really long
time since I've looked for this sort of thing...
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
You might try MCM electronics, as one
possibility, though there are no
doubt other suppliers as well that do mail-order.
Those suppliers do have cross-reference materials available, though it's
primarily oriented toward consumer equipment.
True, but they cannot do 1-off custom. I have a handful of much-beloved
reel-to-reel audio tape decks and turntables in need of replacement
rubber. Is there anyone in the world tooled up for custom belts and
rollers anymore? 
6:25 p.m.
True, but they cannot do 1-off custom. I have a
handful of much-beloved
reel-to-reel audio tape decks and turntables in need of replacement
rubber. Is there anyone in the world tooled up for custom belts and
rollers anymore?
A couple of ideas, one for belts (which I have used), the other for
rollers (which I might try soon if nobody tells me it doesn't work).
For belts, RS components sell (or sold?) a make-your-own O-ring kit. You
got verious diameters of rubber 'cord' and a jig to cut it square and
glue the ends together with some kind of isocyano acrylic
hydrocopolymerising adhesive. The catalogue and instructions said that
this kit could make drive belts for 'light mechancial duty', which seems
to cover tape recorders. I made a drive belt for my N1500 VCR using it,
works fine (although it's not used that much, sure).
For rollers, there are companies who sell a 2-pack product that cures to
form a synthetic rubber (yes, I know that's a contradiction in terms, but
you know what I mean). Devcon is the one I've come across. It's not
cheap, but it does say it can be used to make rollers.
You'd haev to make a mould (a reasonably easy bit of machine shop work in
most cases, I think).
The problem is that you're _supposd_ to use the whole tin of stuff at
once. Firstly that's more than you'd need to make one roller, and
secondly, you are likely to need several attempts when starting out (and
at \pounds 30.00 a tin, this gets ridiculously expensive fast). However,
I've head that people have weighed out part of the tin and mixed that
wiht no problems.
-tony
7:02 p.m.
True, but they cannot do 1-off custom. I have a
handful of much-beloved
reel-to-reel audio tape decks and turntables in need of replacement
rubber. Is there anyone in the world tooled up for custom belts and
rollers anymore?
Are you sure your needs are "custom"? Flat/toothed belts
tend to be hard to find "in variety"... but I have been able
to find almost *any* of the round or "square" (cross sectional)
belts used in most consumer gear.
Do you have an existing belt to use as a template?
Or, barring that, the diameters of the pulleys and
their center-to-center distances (from which
computing belt size is straightforward...)
Typically, these belts run $1 - $2 ... which is outrageous
when you consider you're buying a glorified "rubber band"
but a *steal* when you consider it's actual VALUE!!
8 Aug
8 Aug
5:51 p.m.
True, but they cannot do 1-off custom. I have a
handful of much-beloved
reel-to-reel audio tape decks and turntables in need of replacement
rubber. Is there anyone in the world tooled up for custom belts and
rollers anymore?
Are you sure your needs are "custom"? Flat/toothed belts
tend to be hard to find "in variety"... but I have been able
to find almost *any* of the round or "square" (cross sectional)
belts used in most consumer gear.
Do you have an existing belt to use as a template?
Or, barring that, the diameters of the pulleys and
their center-to-center distances (from which
computing belt size is straightforward...)
FWIW, there's a program in the HP67 Mechanical Engineering Pac (which
will also run on the HP41 series with a card reader) that calculates belt
length given the diameters of the pulleys and the coordinates of their
shafts. It assumes the belt goes round the outside of all the pulleys, it
gets the wrong answer if one pulley is outside the belt (which would be
done if that pulley needs to turn the opposite way)[1].
[1] The thermal printer in muy HP9845B has a toothed (timing) belt with
teeth on both sides. Yes, one sprocket is outside the belt and turns
'backwards'.
Typically, these belts run $1 - $2 ... which is outrageous
when you consider you're buying a glorified "rubber band"
but a *steal* when you consider it's actual VALUE!!
Oh, indeed. Remember you're restoring a valuable (to you) computer or
whatever.
-tony
7:08 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
Can you recomend any places to start looking (usual disclaimers, of
course). I collect names of companies that sell useful stuff for
hacking/restoration.
I just go to one of the local electronic stores. They have
a wall display of assorted belts, each individually packaged
(to justify the price? :< ). Of course, they have no information
as to *applications* so it is wise to know what you are looking
for before walking in.
I was there today. Had I read my mail before driving over
there, I would have noted the name on the "individually
wrapped" packages for you (I will make a note to check
next time I am in that part of town)
The problem with many of these belts is they usually ride in
a groove cut in the circumfrence of the pulleys. It seems
like the depth of that groove is typically half the "diagonal"
thickness of the belt (assuming a square cross section)
So, one more bit of math involved. It's often easiest to bring
an old belt -- even if broken -- since the packages are
transparent and you can just lay the old belt atop the new
belt and compare sizes.
True, but they cannot do 1-off custom. I have a
handful of much-beloved
reel-to-reel audio tape decks and turntables in need of replacement
rubber. Is there anyone in the world tooled up for custom belts and
rollers anymore?
Are you sure your needs are "custom"? Flat/toothed
belts
tend to be hard to find "in variety"... but I have been able
to find almost *any* of the round or "square" (cross sectional)
belts used in most consumer gear. Do you have an
existing belt to use as a template?
Or, barring that, the diameters of the pulleys and
their center-to-center distances (from which
computing belt size is straightforward...)
FWIW, there's a program in the HP67 Mechanical Engineering Pac (which
will also run on the HP41 series with a card reader) that calculates belt
length given the diameters of the pulleys and the coordinates of their
shafts. It assumes the belt goes round the outside of all the pulleys, it
gets the wrong answer if one pulley is outside the belt (which would be
done if that pulley needs to turn the opposite way)[1].
9 Aug
9 Aug
6:16 p.m.
Can you
recomend any places to start looking (usual disclaimers, of
course). I collect names of companies that sell useful stuff for
hacking/restoration.
I just go to one of the local electronic stores. They have a wall display of assorted belts, each individually
packaged
(to justify the price? :< ). Of course, they have no information
as to *applications* so it is wise to know what you are looking
for before walking in.
Again, you're lucky. Over here, there are companies who sell 'belt kits'
for particular models of VCR, with no information as to the sizes of the
belts each kit contains. Great if you want to fix that machine, not so
good if you want a belt for something else. I don't know of any place in
London that will let you match up a belt (or who will supply a belt by
dimensions).
FWIW,
there's a program in the HP67 Mechanical Engineering Pac (which
will also run on the HP41 series with a card reader) that calculates belt
length given the diameters of the pulleys and the coordinates of their
shafts. It assumes the belt goes round the outside of all the pulleys, it
gets the wrong answer if one pulley is outside the belt (which would be
done if that pulley needs to turn the opposite way)[1].
The problem with many of these belts is they usually ride in
a groove cut in the circumfrence of the pulleys. It seems
like the depth of that groove is typically half the "diagonal"
thickness of the belt (assuming a square cross section)
So, one more bit of math involved. It's often easiest to bring
an old belt -- even if broken -- since the packages are
I've had blets turn to a sticky rubber blob (like the rollers in the
other thread), then you can't match it up.
-tony
11:41 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
You're lucky to have a local electronics shop, and it sounds like you
have more than one.
Ha! No, I live in a "backwater" :-( In *that* sense, I *am*
lucky to have a local electronics shop! :< There are two,
maybe two and a half (or, maybe one and two-halves?) located
within a few blocks of each other. But, *combined* they don't
amount to a *good* shop.
OTOH, one has to be thankful for whatever is available.
The supply of belts (and vacuum tubes) was really quite
unexpected.
But, I can't rely on them for a variety of *components*.
Those have to be obtained via mail-order. Which seriously
impacts how you do things.
Other places that I have lived were more metropolitan and
finding disti's with open door policies was pretty easy.
Yes, there are places that will do that. And, most manufacturers
will sell kits for not-too-outrageous prices. But, since you
usually only have to replace *one* belt (at a time), having to buy
a whole set can *appear* costly.
Problem is finding out how to contact manufacturers directly
to gain access to those things. Again, certain localities
are considerably nicer in that regard (e.g., when I lived in
Chicagoland, I walked into Jensen and got photocopies of
old spec sheets, speaker cabinet plans, etc.)
Can you recomend any places to start looking (usual
disclaimers, of
course). I collect names of companies that sell useful stuff for
hacking/restoration.
I just go to one of the local electronic stores. They have
a wall display
of assorted belts, each individually packaged
(to justify the price? :< ). Of course, they have no information
as to *applications* so it is wise to know what you are looking
for before walking in.
Again, you're lucky. Over here, there are companies who sell 'belt kits'
for particular models of VCR, with no information as to the sizes of the belts each kit contains. Great if you want to fix that
machine, not so
good if you want a belt for something else. I don't know of any place in
London that will let you match up a belt (or who will supply a belt by
dimensions).
Sure. But doesn't that imply that the centreline of the belt lies on the
circumference of the pulley? Which means that said program would
calculate the correct size of belt (assuming it's measured around the
centreline).
I'm not sure what the "norm" is for measurement. Note that
2 pulleys of dia's A & B at a center-to-center distance of C
could end up using a belt only *slightly* different than
pulleys of dia's A' & B' at a distance C'. I.e. matching
up belts is not trivial -- each time I have done it, it has
been a trial and error process: "How does *this* one look?
Any better than that LAST one??"
And, of course, when you find the right belt, you buy *two*
AND save the packaging of the one belt that you actually
*use* (with annotations so you don't go through the same
mess next time).
FWIW,
there's a program in the HP67 Mechanical Engineering Pac (which
will also run on the HP41 series with a card reader) that calculates belt
length given the diameters of the pulleys and the coordinates of their
shafts. It assumes the belt goes round the outside of all the pulleys, it
gets the wrong answer if one pulley is outside the belt (which would be
done if that pulley needs to turn the opposite way)[1].
The problem with many of
these belts is they usually ride in
a groove cut in the circumfrence of the pulleys. It seems
like the depth of that groove is typically half the "diagonal"
thickness of the belt (assuming a square cross section) In any case, for the sort of belt we're talking
about here, there should
be enough 'stretch' to get it to fit.
I've only seen problems with "rubber feet" -- especially on
Sun gear -- disintegrating. And, they end up messier than
a wad of chewing gum that has been sitting in the summer
Sun for a day... :-(
Unfortunately, they are always oddball shapes/sizes so replacement
is a chore.
And, *never* set a bit of kit on a piece of *furniture* -- lest
you later discover a disintegrated foot and find yourself trying
to HIDE that fact from The Powers That Be! ;-)
So, one more bit of math involved. It's
often easiest to bring
an old belt -- even if broken -- since the packages are
I've had blets turn to a sticky rubber blob (like the rollers in the
other thread), then you can't match it up.
6 Aug
6 Aug
6:32 p.m.
For taking care of #1, as far as I can tell the drive works except for a
rubber wheel that's turned to this lovely gooey tar. I don't
necessarily _need_ to fix the drive, since I have a compatible
replacement, but I'd like to keep the system as original as possible so
if it's possible to fix without too much work I'd like to do that. The
tape drive in question is an Archive 5945S-1. Anyone have any idea how
feasible it is to find a replacement wheel for this drive? Any good
places to look that you'd recommend?
I've not had to do that drive yet (although I have a few of them, and
related units, that will need doing soon). But the normal tricks for
rollers that have turned to good are to :
1) Use silicone rubber tubing over the original hub. Maybe scrape it down
to the right dfameter if necessary
2) Several layers of heatshrink sleeving over the original hub. I've
never had any success with this method, others claim to use it
3) Silicone rubber O-rings in grooves machined in the original or a
replacement hub. I use this with great success on HP caculator card
readers (including the desktop models)
-tony
7 Aug
7 Aug
8:14 p.m.
Thanks! I'll give those suggestions a shot sometime in the near future.
Josh
Tony Duell wrote:
For taking
care of #1, as far as I can tell the drive works except for a
rubber wheel that's turned to this lovely gooey tar. I don't
necessarily _need_ to fix the drive, since I have a compatible
replacement, but I'd like to keep the system as original as possible so
if it's possible to fix without too much work I'd like to do that. The
tape drive in question is an Archive 5945S-1. Anyone have any idea how
feasible it is to find a replacement wheel for this drive? Any good
places to look that you'd recommend?
I've not had to do that drive yet (although I have a few of them, and
related units, that will need doing soon). But the normal tricks for
rollers that have turned to good are to :
1) Use silicone rubber tubing over the original hub. Maybe scrape it down
to the right dfameter if necessary
2) Several layers of heatshrink sleeving over the original hub. I've
never had any success with this method, others claim to use it
3) Silicone rubber O-rings in grooves machined in the original or a
replacement hub. I use this with great success on HP caculator card
readers (including the desktop models)
-tony
12:54 p.m.
2. Archiving the tapes in a useful format.
Regarding #2, I don't have an incredible amount of
experience dealing
with tape, so I'm looking for suggestions for how best to archive
these tapes without losing any important information.
I'd suggest copytape, or something basically equivalent. (copytape is
a data format for recording tape contents including block boundaries
and tape marks, and a program for converting either way between that
format and real tapes. The version I use can be found in
ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/local/src/copyutape/ for them as
wants.)
Now, as I understand it, most (all?) QIC drives do not fit the
canonical Unix tape model; they are streams of 512-byte blocks, not
streams of variable-length records. However, since a copytape-format
dump of the tapes would allow you to recreate the tapes, given media
and drive, it can be considered a lossless storage format.
/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
8:17 p.m.
Thanks for the suggestion -- I've already gone through and dd'd up most
of the tapes I have but I'll probably go through them again with
copytape at some point, just to be extra thorough (I guess I'm pretty
paranoid). :)
Thanks again,
Josh
der Mouse wrote:
2. Archiving
the tapes in a useful format.
Regarding #2, I don't have an incredible
amount of experience dealing
with tape, so I'm looking for suggestions for how best to archive
these tapes without losing any important information.
I'd suggest copytape, or something basically equivalent. (copytape is
a data format for recording tape contents including block boundaries
and tape marks, and a program for converting either way between that
format and real tapes. The version I use can be found in
ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/local/src/copyutape/ for them as
wants.)
Now, as I understand it, most (all?) QIC drives do not fit the
canonical Unix tape model; they are streams of 512-byte blocks, not
streams of variable-length records. However, since a copytape-format
dump of the tapes would allow you to recreate the tapes, given media
and drive, it can be considered a lossless storage format.
/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
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