6 Jun
2000
6 Jun
'00
3:16 p.m.
This is the crux of the matter. The plastics used in
consumer devices are
junk, and many times the implementation is done with little thought to
durability, only cost.
Sometimes plastics are used in very interesting ways. I remember one
Sony Walkman-style tape transport from the 1980's, where there were *zero*
metal screws in it. The entire assembly was snap-together plastic.
Cheap? Absolutely! But design-wise, very interesting.
Tim.
6 Jun
6 Jun
5:14 p.m.
New subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq...
I have online documentation for most things DEC *software* I have now, and
most of the time, I can even figure out how to install it! However, I have
nearly zero documentation for the hardware...
So I've been hunting (fairly hard) for the last few days trying to find
documentation on the hardware on the World Wide Waste-o-time... with few
results. I did find a really interesting page here:
http://www.digital.com/lists/QB_archive_HD.html
but most of the MicroVAX links are dead, and the few that work don't seem
to help me.
Ontopically, the main problem I'm having with my MicroVAX is: I finally got
several pieces of software installed, not the least of which is BASIC. I
even have the licenses entered, so it'll actually *run*! ;-) However, I've
tried EDIT with every /SWITCH I can see, and I haven't a clue how to run
the line editor, and the screen editor abends with a "terminal unknown"
type of error. FYI: I have the 2Meg 8-plane Graphics card, and VMS 7.1
installed... VMS seems not to understand what type of terminal emulation
will work with the card, and I've monkeyed with the SET TERMINAL jazz until
I'm blue in the face (and you thought I was ugly before! ;-). A really
quick pointer there would be *fantastic!*
(oh, and one other quick thing on the MV: Are there any DOS/Linux utils to
read/write to a MV formatted floppy?)
Offtopically, the DEC 3000 model 300 has *got* to be the hardest DEC piece
of equipment to find info for... I can't seem to find anything *at all*
about the hardware other than processor speed, which the 'puter is more
than kind enough to tell me during the boot-up process.
Is the printer port serial or parallel, and depending upon which, what type
of cable do I need to hook it to either an: Epson Photo 700 (yes, I know
I'll be limited to text only -- that's o.k.) or an Epson EPL-7000 laser
which has both parallel and serial, and from what I was told, a 3Meg buffer
upgrade which also includes PostScript.
I'll stick my 'scope on the darned thing if I have to (which I will if I
can't get any info on this thing by the weekend) but just a reference page
with pinouts would be great!
I'll even make a deal: I'll *make* a webpage with info on this thing
(including pinouts) if someone has the tech references...
Anywho, thanks a lot, especially if it get's my MicroVAX programming in
BASIC soon...
See ya,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig.
If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead
disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.
5:47 p.m.
New subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq...
I have online documentation for most things DEC
*software* I have now, and
most of the time, I can even figure out how to install it! However, I have
nearly zero documentation for the hardware...
So I've been hunting (fairly hard) for the last few days trying to find
documentation on the hardware on the World Wide Waste-o-time... with few
results. I did find a really interesting page here:
http://www.digital.com/lists/QB_archive_HD.html
but most of the MicroVAX links are dead, and the few that work don't seem
to help me.
To put it mildly the Compaqazation of the DEC Websites is more than a little
irritating. They went from being fairly nice and easy to use, to a
nightmare.
Here is a trick. Go to the OpenVMS web page and figure out how to search
the site, tell it you want to search all sites. Not sure that's the exact
trick I use (it seems to change every time), but I have fairly good luck
along those lines.
Ontopically, the main problem I'm having with my
MicroVAX is: I finally got
several pieces of software installed, not the least of which is BASIC. I
Smile, and point your browser at the following:
http://www.openvms.digital.com/commercial/basic/basic_index.html
It has manuals for the latest version of BASIC, which will unfortunatly be
newer than what you have.
even have the licenses entered, so it'll actually
*run*! ;-) However, I've
tried EDIT with every /SWITCH I can see, and I haven't a clue how to run
the line editor, and the screen editor abends with a "terminal unknown"
I just gave up in disgust and put the following in my login.com
$ set term /dev=vt100/insert
I'm sure someone has a better solution, but at any given time I might be
accessing my cluster from a VT420, DECterm, NiftyTelnet on a Mac, or an
xterm and Unix Telnet. You might want to skip the /insert, I like that
behavior.
type of error. FYI: I have the 2Meg 8-plane Graphics
card, and VMS 7.1
installed... VMS seems not to understand what type of terminal emulation
will work with the card, and I've monkeyed with the SET TERMINAL jazz until
I'm blue in the face (and you thought I was ugly before! ;-). A really
quick pointer there would be *fantastic!*
Wait a minute.... You've got a graphics card, which indicates you're not
using a terminal, yet you're not using DECwindows? In that case I'm not
sure the above trick will work for you.
(oh, and one other quick thing on the MV: Are there
any DOS/Linux utils to
read/write to a MV formatted floppy?)
Maybe. ISTR, something about reading ODS-2 disks on Linux. Though I've no
idea what format VMS uses for floppies, I've never bothered to mess with
them.
Offtopically, the DEC 3000 model 300 has *got* to be
the hardest DEC piece
Which model is it? Is it a straight Model 300, or is it a 300L, 300X, or
300LX? If it's the 300LX, I might be able to help answer quesitons *IF* I
can figure out where my manual is.
of equipment to find info for... I can't seem to
find anything *at all*
about the hardware other than processor speed, which the 'puter is more
than kind enough to tell me during the boot-up process.
Is the printer port serial or parallel, and depending upon which, what type
of cable do I need to hook it to either an: Epson Photo 700 (yes, I know
I'll be limited to text only -- that's o.k.) or an Epson EPL-7000 laser
which has both parallel and serial, and from what I was told, a 3Meg buffer
upgrade which also includes PostScript.
How about a Ethernet-to-Localtalk converter with DCPSplus and Appletalk
running on the OpenVMS box? That is how I print to my HP 5MP printer. In
fact the OpenVMS system is acting as the print server for the OpenVMS
Cluster, Unix Boxes, and Windows. The Mac's just print direct to the
printer. ISTR that you've got a complete set of VAX CD's so this could be
an option for you.
Anywho, thanks a lot, especially if it get's my
MicroVAX programming in
BASIC soon...
BTW, I've got some of the ancient DECUS BASIC programs on my FTP site that
I've updated to work with OpenVMS. Right now I'm working at learning how to
write DCL programs though.
7 Jun
7 Jun
8:32 a.m.
New subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq...
On Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 07:47:43PM -0700, healyzh(a)aracnet.com wrote:
It sounds like he's just installed the standard OpenVMS 7.2 hobbyist
distribution. I've never installed "Real" VMS, so I'm not sure what
the
procedure to get DECwindows running on it is, but this works for the
hobbyist setup.
1) Install a hobbyist license for DWMOTIF
2) Increase GBLPAGES and GBLSECTIONS system parameters appropriately,
if needed, and do
$ @SYS$UPDATE:AUTOGEN GETDATR REBOOT
3) Install MOTIF from the hobbyist CD with this command:
$ PRODUCT INSTALL DWMOTIF /SOURCE=DKB400:[KITS.DWMOTIF_VAX125_KIT]
4) Reboot and you'll be brought to the DECwindows login screen. You can
run a DECterm and get apropriate terminal behavior.
(This is all assuming that you installed DECwindows support when
you installed the VMS operating system, of course :)
The other good thing to do at this point is to repeat the above
procedure for DEC TCP/IP. Once you've installed a UCX license
and installed the TCP/IP software, you can set it all up using
the command
$ @TCPIP$CONFIG.COM (I think... I'm not actually near my VAX right now)
and be able to telnet into your VAX from another system.
There's documentation a-plenty at:
http://www.openvms.digital.com:8000/
It hasn't been badly twisted by The Q yet.
-Seth
--
"As a general rule, the man in the habit of murdering | Seth Morabito
bookbinders, though he performs a distinct service | sethm(a)loomcom.com
to society, only wastes his own time and takes no |
personal advantage." -- Kenneth Grahame (1898) | Perth ==> *
type of error. FYI: I have the 2Meg 8-plane
Graphics card, and VMS 7.1
installed... VMS seems not to understand what type of terminal emulation
will work with the card, and I've monkeyed with the SET TERMINAL jazz until
I'm blue in the face (and you thought I was ugly before! ;-). A really
quick pointer there would be *fantastic!*
Wait a minute.... You've got a graphics card, which indicates you're not
using a terminal, yet you're not using DECwindows? In that case I'm not
sure the above trick will work for you. 
8:59 a.m.
New subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq...
It sounds like he's just installed the standard
OpenVMS 7.2 hobbyist
distribution. I've never installed "Real" VMS, so I'm not sure what
the
procedure to get DECwindows running on it is, but this works for the
hobbyist setup.
The hobbiest is the same save for included app on the CDrom. Your fixes
work but the need to do that was likely due to wrong installation options
having been selected. I did it based on the 5.4 kits I knew from DEC
and the DECwindows server and all installed as expected.
FYI the most common problem is not having the licenses (all) at first
install and having to go back and run LMF or VMSinstal to add.
Allison
8:32 p.m.
New subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq...
If this is a dupe I appologize. My ISP's email freaked out big time just
before I went into work, and it doesn't look like this made it out (if I
read the bounce right). Figured I'd resend it since the list of links is
useful.
It sounds like he's just installed the standard
OpenVMS 7.2 hobbyist
distribution. I've never installed "Real" VMS, so I'm not sure what
the
procedure to get DECwindows running on it is, but this works for the
hobbyist setup.
Actually I suspect in his case he's installed the Commerical 7.1 kit, but
the only real difference is the layout on the CD. However, you bring up an
excellent point, I'd forgotten what a royal pain it is to get DECwindows
running on a VAX as compared to on an Alpha. I've only installed
DECwindows on one of my VAXen, and don't haven't even bothered with it on
most of my Alpha's. On the Alpha you simply do the install, and then
install and load the license PAKs. IIRC, I actually had to break out the
manual to get it loaded on the VAX, how embarassing :^)
There's documentation a-plenty at:
http://www.openvms.digital.com:8000/
It hasn't been badly twisted by The Q yet.
-Seth
Actually I suspect that URL might not be around much longer, as I've
noticed that http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/ now works.
The frustrating thing is they've started putting up the doc's for
individual software at different URL's, for example start here:
http://www.openvms.digital.com/commercial/ (actually this looks like the
second most useful besides the actual doc site, all kinds of good links).
and find links to docs at:
http://www.openvms.digital.com/commercial/basic/basic_index.html
http://www.openvms.digital.com/commercial/c/c_index.html
http://www.openvms.digital.com/commercial/ada/documentation.html
http://www.digital.com/fortran/docs/
http://www.openvms.digital.com/commercial/pascal/documentation.html
For a non-Y2k compliant web page see: :^)
http://www.openvms.digital.com/commercial/cplus/cplus_index.html
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
8 Jun
8 Jun
5:35 a.m.
New subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq...
On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Zane H. Healy wrote:
[seth wrote:]
>It sounds like he's just installed the
standard OpenVMS 7.2 hobbyist
>distribution. I've never installed "Real" VMS, so I'm not sure
what the
>procedure to get DECwindows running on it is, but this works for the
>hobbyist setup.
Alas, real VAX/VMS no longer exists, it's name has been castrated by
the marketing goons to sound like yet another bizdroidish name... the
thought of seeing the string "OpenVMS" on my VT240 is nowhere near as
much fun as seeing "VAX/VMS." Does anyone know where I can get a
complete V5.4 or so VAX/VMS distribution on TK50s or TK70s? I don't
need DECwindows, BTW.
...that is, if I can get my TK70 working. One of the TK70's lights
blinks briefly when the system is powered on, then nothing, and I can't
insert a tape into the drive.
Actually I suspect that URL might not be around much
longer, as I've
noticed that http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/ now works.
How did Compaq expect to do as well as they could have by buying DEC
when they destroyed DEC? When I think of Compaq, I think of those
poorly designed IBM type toy PC kludges, not nicely designed hardware
that's useful and fun to play with as I did when I thought of DEC.
It's obvious that the microsoft virus has infected the brains of those
who run Compaq, and who've run DEC into the ground.
--
R. D. Davis
rdd(a)perqlogic.com
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd
410-744-4900
8:12 a.m.
New subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq...
R. D. Davis wrote:
Alas, real VAX/VMS no longer exists, it's name has
been castrated by
the marketing goons to sound like yet another bizdroidish name... the
thought of seeing the string "OpenVMS" on my VT240 is nowhere near as
much fun as seeing "VAX/VMS." Does anyone know where I can get a
VAX/VMS was a name that *had* to go in the early 90's. Think about it, if
you had your way we'd have VAX/VMS and AXP/VMS, which would create
confusion, where there doesn't need to be any. Besides OpenVMS is as Open
as just about any other OS out there.
complete V5.4 or so VAX/VMS distribution on TK50s or
TK70s? I don't
need DECwindows, BTW.
Best answer, get lucky and find a set. I wish the Hobbyist VAX V1 CD was
still available for people, it had V5.5 - 6.1 on it. It also had all kinds
of excellent software on it. Of course it was missing the layered products
the V2 CD has.
For the most part I agree on DECwindows, though I like having one system
that can run it, and I normally just bring it up on my PowerMac using
eXodus. There are a couple DECwindows apps I like to use. Still
NiftyTelnet on my Mac can easily bring up a ton of terminal windows, so if
that's all I need, that's the route I use.
How did Compaq expect to do as well as they could have
by buying DEC
when they destroyed DEC? When I think of Compaq, I think of those
poorly designed IBM type toy PC kludges, not nicely designed hardware
that's useful and fun to play with as I did when I thought of DEC.
It's obvious that the microsoft virus has infected the brains of those
who run Compaq, and who've run DEC into the ground.
Compaq has done a lot of bad, but they've also done a lot of good. Sure
it's wierd seeing a row of Compaq Rack's standing where some *old* DEC gear
used to stand, but inside those racks is some beautiful OpenVMS hardware!
To bad it belongs to another group and I can't touch it!
Compaq might not be doing a lot to advertise OpenVMS, but they're
apparently doing more than DEC had in recent years. Besides this new
Hobbyist program that we all love, came about after Compaq got ahold of the
company.
Compaq does have a lot of junky toy PC's, but they've also got some pretty
amazing x86 boxes. Of course they're running a horrible OS.
What is disturbing about Compaq is that they continue to push Windows and
for the most part ignore the OS's that they own.
Of course it you like VMS and want to see it successful, how about doing
something about it like writing some software, or telling people how great
it is. It's in desparate need of apps, and most people don't even know it
is still around.
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
7 Jun
7 Jun
6:54 a.m.
New subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq...
However, I've
tried EDIT with every /SWITCH I can see, and I haven't a clue how to run
the line editor, and the screen editor abends with a "terminal unknown"
type of error.
Well, there's always TECO...
$ teco:==$sys$system:teco32.exe teco
$ make:==$sys$system:teco32.exe make
$ mung:==$sys$system:teco32.exe mung
Oh no! Someone's taken over www.teco.com and it's not about the editor
anymore!
See ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/teco/
for documentation.
Which reminds me. Several years ago I found a slick version of TECO called
"Video TECO" which I used for some time under Ultrix. I've since lost the
tarball and have not been able to find it on the net (I still have a
printout of the manual somewhere). Anyone else use it and know where I
can snag a copy?
I don't know what line editor they're shipping with VMS these days (my
spine knows EDT, so I don't usually stray), but the best thing to do
with SOS (other than not use it) is pretend it's the old Micro$oft BASIC
line editor. At least, that's how _I_ learned to use it, having come from
the TRS-80 Model I and found myself dropped on a VAX.
Offtopically, the DEC 3000 model 300 has *got* to be
the hardest DEC piece
of equipment to find info for... I can't seem to find anything *at all*
about the hardware other than processor speed, which the 'puter is more
than kind enough to tell me during the boot-up process.
I don't know much about them beyond them being the low-end TURBOchannel
Alpha box. I mainly dealt with Flaming-Os and SandWipers, and never
played with the 300. IIRC, the 300 has a 12.5MHz TURBOchannel.
Is the printer port serial or parallel,
It'll be serial.
--
Roger Ivie
rivie(a)teraglobal.com
Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation
11:44 a.m.
New subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq...
On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 09:54:06AM -0600, Roger Ivie wrote:
Oh no! Someone's taken over www.teco.com and
it's not about the editor
anymore!
Can't get it to come up, is it the folks that make the clips and brackets
for tying lumber together? I got a kick out of sticking TECO clips all over
the roof when I rebuilt my garage... "TE CO" also seems to be a common
failure mode for TEXACO gas station signs.
I don't know what line editor they're shipping
with VMS these days (my
spine knows EDT, so I don't usually stray),
EDT *is* a line editor, until you (or your init file) type CHANGE that is.
I count four different editors hiding inside EDT:
1. Original non-keypad change mode (from EDT V1), annoying modal thing
like "vi" but of course totally different (SET CHANGE NOKEYPAD gets you
this IIRC).
2. Line mode, when you haven't typed CHANGE yet.
3. CHANGE mode on a VT100 etc. (what we're all used to)
4. CHANGE mode on a hardcopy terminal. Bizarre!
Are there more?
but the best thing to do
with SOS (other than not use it) is pretend it's the old Micro$oft BASIC
line editor. At least, that's how _I_ learned to use it, having come from
the TRS-80 Model I and found myself dropped on a VAX.
Boy it's been a while, I remember thinking SOS was very much like the TRS-80
Model II EDTASM. Close enough!
I feel sure I've asked this before and probably been answered but, if SOS
is Son Of Stopgap, just how bad was the original Stopgap Editor? :-)
John Wilson
D Bit
12:26 p.m.
New subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq...
John Wilson wrote:
On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 09:54:06AM -0600, Roger Ivie
wrote:
No. It's TECO INTERNATIONAL, "a group of companies with over 70 years
of experience serving the worldwide primary glass manufacturing
industry. The TECO (TM) group provides the industry with glass-melting
furnaces, batch plants, and complete plants for the production of all
types of glass..."
It also says "...TECO (TM) [is a] registered tradmark of Toledo
Engineering Co., Inc."
Oh no! Someone's taken over www.teco.com and
it's not about the editor
anymore!
Can't get it to come up, is it the folks that make the clips and brackets
for tying lumber together? I got a kick out of sticking TECO clips all over
the roof when I rebuilt my garage... "TE CO" also seems to be a common
failure mode for TEXACO gas station signs. EDT *is* a line editor, until you (or your init file)
type CHANGE that is.
I count four different editors hiding inside EDT:
1. Original non-keypad change mode (from EDT V1), annoying modal thing
like "vi" but of course totally different (SET CHANGE NOKEYPAD gets you
this IIRC).
2. Line mode, when you haven't typed CHANGE yet.
3. CHANGE mode on a VT100 etc. (what we're all used to)
4. CHANGE mode on a hardcopy terminal. Bizarre!
I've never done any real work with modes 2 and 4. I'm only in mode 2
long enough to say CHANGE.
And you've completely ignored the possibility of running mode 3 on
a VT52...
I feel sure I've asked this before and probably
been answered but, if SOS
is Son Of Stopgap, just how bad was the original Stopgap Editor? :-)
I once heard rumors, but I've completely forgotten them so that now I
can just spread rumors that there once were rumors about Stopgap.
--
Roger Ivie
rivie(a)teraglobal.com
Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation
8:06 a.m.
New subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq...
Roger said:
However, I've tried EDIT with every /SWITCH I can
see, and I
haven't a clue how to run the line editor, and the screen
editor abends with a "terminal unknown"
I assume you know the help set term tree of information.
Also, I expect you tried vt100 first? VT100 worked with
every SIO PeCee emulator I've heard of and most Unix
telnets.
John A. (away from Home)
8:33 a.m.
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12 comments
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participants (10)
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allisonp＠world.std.com -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
John.Allain＠donnelley.infousa.com -
rdd＠smart.net -
rivie＠teraglobal.com -
sethm＠loomcom.com -
wilson＠dbit.dbit.com -
zmerch＠30below.com