Unaccustomed as I am to keeping my mouth shut, I will endeavor to weigh in on "Are IBM PCs classic?" - even though I just joined this classic computer list today. Since I just joined this "list" today I do not know what prompted "Are IBM PCs classic?". So forgive me in advance if my views have already been offered by others. "Are IBM PCs classic?" is something that I have wondered about and certainly needs to be addressed. If one is being precise, then when one says "IBM PCs" one is referring to the original IBM Personal Computer, introduced in 1981, with a 62.5 watt power supply, Type 1 or 2 motherboard, INTEL 8088 clocked at 4.77 MHz, four ROM sockets, five 8-bit expansion adapter slots, two full height diskette (floppy disk) drive bays and 16 or 64 KILO!-bytes of soldered main memory. If one is alluding, more generally, to all the, more or less, compatible machines that followed (including the IBM PC/XT), then you have thrown open the gates to such a broad spectrum of (sometimes very interesting and significant) machines that the discussion becomes cumbersome. In the interest of circumscribing the discussion, my comments are limited to just the original PC, plus any other "highly (BIOS) compatible" 8-bit bus, 4.77 MHZ PC compatible; like the original Compaq and other early examples. Now... When saying "classic", if you intend to be using standard, plain American English, then the question may be addressed as follows... The American Heritage dictionary has 6 definitions for classic adj. And they are (with my assessment): Definition #1. Of the highest rank or class. My collection has, among other things, five IBM PCs (Type 1 or Type 2) and, wonderful as they are, I would rather assign the "highest rank or class" distinction, as far as a classic digital computer goes, to the likes of machines like ENIAC, ILLIAC 4, System 360/95, Cray (1 and up), etc. My dad worked on ENIAC. Definition #2. Serving as an outstanding representative of its kind; model. If by PC it is agreed that we mean "IBM PC hardware compatible micro computer system" then I would say that the IBM PC is an "outstanding representative" of a IBM PC hardware compatible micro computer system" - having actually initially established and then continually defined this kind of computer. Definition #3. Having lasting significance or recognized worth. The demand for, and eventual numbers sold are a clear indication that the IBM PC had a "recognized worth" to a great many people. It wasn't cheap. Had it not had recognized worth, few would have sold and it would have suffered a fate like the PC Jr. Of course IBM PC is no longer made new so the recognized worth is not what it used to be. But many are still very much in use. To glimpse just one aspect of its "lasting significance" take a look at the IBM PC main memory allocation map. The fact that the PC compatible world is STILL contending with the fixed 640 KB boundary and display adapter memory map above that indicates that the significance is lasting. There are many more aspects of this. So the IBM PC has lasting significance, and still has recognized worth. Definition #4. Pertaining to ancient Greek or Roman literature or art. No, the IBM PC does not in any way pertain to these. Definition #5. Of or in accordance with established principals or methods in the arts and sciences. Yes, the IBM PC indeed uses well "established principals and methods" - in the sciences at least. Nothing very adventurous was attempted in its design. Its design was executed by the worlds mightiest computer company. That was where the "adventurous" aspect came in. IBM being IBM. It was a very adventurous thing for IBM to do. What eventually happened to the worlds mightiest computer company, as a result of their little, adventurous creation, makes a very compelling and ironic tale indeed. But as for the actual IBM PC hardware itself, It uses normal TTL and CMOS logic and has an: internal power supply, motherboard (with Intel CPU, dynamic ram memory, ROM, adapter bus), cassette I/O port! floppy disk drive(s), detached keyboard, I/O adapters (for display, serial, parallel ports), CP/M-86, P-System Pascal, DOS (CP/M inspired), Visicalc, etc. This was all very well established by others before IBM ventured in. I am not qualified to address "in accordance with established arts" part of this definition, but the case sure looks like a classic IBM design, at least to me. Definition #6. Of lasting historical or literary significance. Literary? Not. Historical? Absolutely. The IBM PC system hardware provided a very, very good (though, unfortunately, not a really, really great) foundation upon which an entire genera of useful, rapidly advancing, affordable, accessible, (and eventually quite powerful) personal computing and data processing machines have been built. And are continuing to be built, even to this day. Plus, the very existence of the IBM PC (as good or bad as you would rate the hardware for the time) directly fostered the rapid, stable development of the entire personal computer industry. This industry was not CREATED by the IBM PC. The industry was already there (Apple, S-100, TRS-80, Sinclair, etc, etc) trying to bootstrap itself into viability. But the "endorsement" of the whole concept, by IBM creating a tangible, workable platform, that would certainly not fold up due to lack of financial resources, created an environment "comfortable" enough for the wealthy to pour in their capital and for the young and adventurous to pour their very lives. So... The IBM PC is a classic? The IBM PC is a classic general purpose stored program digital computer system. The IBM PC is a classic micro computer system. The IBM PC is a classic IBM "PC compatible" computer, odd as that may sound, and in fact defines that genre. The IBM PC is a classic little computer that you can put your arms around. The IBM PC is not a classic outside of it's league. The IBM PC is not a classic big "glass house", "mainframe" computer. The IBM PC is not one kind of classic since it doesn't even have one blinking light on the front (and I really mean "blinking" as in flashing on and off). Everybody knows that you have to have lots of blinking lights to have a REAL computer. I cut my computer teeth on an IBM 360/44 (with the 200ns high speed! register option, and that little internal pancake disk drive). It took me quite awhile to get over the fascination of watching the light show dancing around on the front panel. Lights went out with the 370 mid-life kickers and things just weren't the same after that. The IBM PC is not a classic big computer - the kind that put ITS arms around YOU. And those of you who know what I mean, know what I mean. However... If by "classic" you are using some other definition (which you have every right to do) then one can not address the question without knowing the special definition that you have in mind. For example, if by "classic" it is meant that they will eventually be sought after by overly mature, as in aging, men and women looking for a way to bring back some very fond memories of a more vital, adventurous time. And willing to pay (possibly large) sums of money to get such an object of desire - so that they can brag sagely about it to their (also older) knowing friends. If that is what is meant by "classic" then... The IBM PC is not a classic - for everyone. I know of no "classic" anything that is. Will the IBM PC be a popular classic as time goes by? I don't know. But I can tell you that it has become popular with me. I'm way more overly mature than I would like to be and, ahem, I have a original IBM PC, with a Type 1 motherboard and a serial number of _235785. Top that! I am sure some of you can. I plan to de-expand it back to an earlier representative configuration - with one SINGLE SIDED diskette drive! And boot DOS 1.0 or 3.3. And if I find a Type 1 with a number __99999 or less, then I will investigate procuring that. And if I find a Type 1 with a number ___999 or less, then I will really investigate procuring that - and so forth. No I'm not a nut. But I am a collector on the look-out. I have a small (25) "PC" collection (with a cut off at the first Pentium) mostly because I can't stand to see fully functional digital computers, who did nothing but serve their masters, trashed and lost forever. I certainly don't need to find an earlier Type 1, I already have a pretty nice example. What I NEED to find is a fully functional IBM PC Expansion Chassis (with two 10 Meg disk drives) to connect to my Type 1. This could run everything from DOS 1.1 to Windows 3.0. Are IBM PCs classic? Yes, by and large they really are - though not for everyone. Now... If you know where I could get my hands on a working IBM PC Expansion Chassis, especially one headed for oblivion, please let me know. I am, Paul King at PaKing(a)exchange.ml.com