16 Jul
2019
16 Jul
'19
4:10 p.m.
I've been studying scanned documents for the M9312 UNIBUS bootstrap/terminator card
because of reasons. They refer to Digital Equipment Corporation Purchase Specifications
23-000A9-01 and 23-000F1-01 for the PROMs, and I'm wondering whether those documents
have been preserved anywhere? I'd love to see them.
Ok, about the reasons: My PDP-11/34A has an M9301-YF bootstrap/terminator card, which
doesn't have bootstrap code for a couple of the newer devices I'd like to use in
the system such as RL02 and emulated TU58. The newer M9312 card looks more flexible for
changing out bootstraps than the M9301 series.
I'm working on getting my hands on an M9312, but I don't know yet whether I'll
be able to get original PROMs for the specific bootstraps that I want. I haven't
identified a trustworthy source for blank old-timey bipolar PROMs yet (and I'm not
sure if I have a suitable device programmer for them), and I was thinking about making
some sort of PROM emulations that I can swap around like they're going out of style.
It would probably be helpful (and definitely interesting) if I could learn details about
the original part specifications, such as what speed ratings DEC used. I don't have an
M9312 in my hands yet, and I'm not yet sure about how rapidly the card performs its
little 4-to-16 bit deserialization stunt.
If 70ns access time parts are sufficient for the M9312's PROMs, then I may design an
emulation with a 5V compatible 28 series EEPROM. If they need to be faster, then I may
need to do something fancier. Or maybe I'll find the original PROMs that I need and
then get distracted and wander off. It may well be easier to design a replacement for the
entire M9312 card than trying to emulate the individual 512x4 bipolar PROMs, but since
when do I do anything the easy way? I sure wouldn't be playing with 40 year old
computers if I was concerned with practicality and ease of use!
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
16 Jul
16 Jul
4:19 p.m.
On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 4:10 PM Mark J. Blair via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I've been studying scanned documents for the M9312
UNIBUS
bootstrap/terminator card because of reasons. They refer to Digital
Equipment Corporation Purchase Specifications 23-000A9-01 and 23-000F1-01
for the PROMs, and I'm wondering whether those documents have been
preserved anywhere? I'd love to see them.
Ok, about the reasons: My PDP-11/34A has an M9301-YF bootstrap/terminator
card, which doesn't have bootstrap code for a couple of the newer devices
I'd like to use in the system such as RL02 and emulated TU58. The newer
M9312 card looks more flexible for changing out bootstraps than the M9301
series.
I'm working on getting my hands on an M9312, but I don't know yet whether
I'll be able to get original PROMs for the specific bootstraps that I want.
I haven't identified a trustworthy source for blank old-timey bipolar PROMs
yet (and I'm not sure if I have a suitable device programmer for them), and
I was thinking about making some sort of PROM emulations that I can swap
around like they're going out of style. It would probably be helpful (and
definitely interesting) if I could learn details about the original part
specifications, such as what speed ratings DEC used. I don't have an M9312
in my hands yet, and I'm not yet sure about how rapidly the card performs
its little 4-to-16 bit deserialization stunt.
If 70ns access time parts are sufficient for the M9312's PROMs, then I may
design an emulation with a 5V compatible 28 series EEPROM. If they need to
be faster, then I may need to do something fancier. Or maybe I'll find the
original PROMs that I need and then get distracted and wander off. It may
well be easier to design a replacement for the entire M9312 card than
trying to emulate the individual 512x4 bipolar PROMs, but since when do I
do anything the easy way? I sure wouldn't be playing with 40 year old
computers if I was concerned with practicality and ease of use!
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
Mark,
This guy makes them
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP-11-Boot-Prom-M9312-RL02-RX01-RX02-RK06-07-…
He may be able to advise answers to your questions if you find the price it
too high.
Bill
7:18 p.m.
Don't know if you are aware of this data, might just give you some hints.
http://www.ak6dn.com/PDP-11/M9312/
On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 4:19 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 4:10 PM Mark J. Blair via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I've been studying scanned documents for the
M9312 UNIBUS
bootstrap/terminator card because of reasons. They refer to Digital
Equipment Corporation Purchase Specifications 23-000A9-01 and 23-000F1-01
for the PROMs, and I'm wondering whether those documents have been
preserved anywhere? I'd love to see them.
Ok, about the reasons: My PDP-11/34A has an M9301-YF bootstrap/terminator
card, which doesn't have bootstrap code for a couple of the newer devices
I'd like to use in the system such as RL02 and emulated TU58. The newer
M9312 card looks more flexible for changing out bootstraps than the M9301
series.
I'm working on getting my hands on an M9312, but I don't know yet whether
I'll be able to get original PROMs for the specific bootstraps that I want.
I haven't identified a trustworthy source for blank old-timey bipolar PROMs
yet (and I'm not sure if I have a suitable device programmer for them), and
I was thinking about making some sort of PROM emulations that I can swap
around like they're going out of style. It would probably be helpful (and
definitely interesting) if I could learn details about the original part
specifications, such as what speed ratings DEC used. I don't have an M9312
in my hands yet, and I'm not yet sure about how rapidly the card performs
its little 4-to-16 bit deserialization stunt.
If 70ns access time parts are sufficient for the M9312's PROMs, then I may
design an emulation with a 5V compatible 28 series EEPROM. If they need to
be faster, then I may need to do something fancier. Or maybe I'll find the
original PROMs that I need and then get distracted and wander off. It may
well be easier to design a replacement for the entire M9312 card than
trying to emulate the individual 512x4 bipolar PROMs, but since when do I
do anything the easy way? I sure wouldn't be playing with 40 year old
computers if I was concerned with practicality and ease of use!
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
Mark,
This guy makes them
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP-11-Boot-Prom-M9312-RL02-RX01-RX02-RK06-07-…
He may be able to advise answers to your questions if you find the price it
too high.
Bill 
17 Jul
17 Jul
4:20 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark J.
Blair via cctalk
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2019 4:10 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: DEC Purchase Specifications, particularly 23-000A9-01
.....
If 70ns access time parts are sufficient for the M9312's PROMs, then I may
design an emulation with a 5V compatible 28 series EEPROM. If they need to
be faster, then I may need to do something fancier. Or maybe I'll find the
original PROMs that I need and then get distracted and wander off. It may
well be easier to design a replacement for the entire M9312 card than trying
to emulate the individual 512x4 bipolar PROMs, but since when do I do
anything the easy way? I sure wouldn't be playing with 40 year old computers
if I was concerned with practicality and ease of use!
-----
From some notes (origin misplaced!) you'll need a
typical access time of
40ns from address, or 20ns from /CS:
----
DEC boot PROMs on Unibus cards are small bipolar fusible-link PROMs
The A9 types are 82S131 (or MMI6306, 75S171, 27S13, 93448, etc)
16-pin DIL 512-words by 4-bit wide.
Pin spacing is 0.1", pin column pitch is 0.3".
Access times are typically 40ns from address, or 20ns from /CS.
____ ____
| U |
A6 | 1 16 | Vcc
A5 | 2 15 | A7
A4 | 3 14 | A8
A3 | 4 13 | /CS
A0 | 5 12 | D0
A1 | 6 11 | D1
A2 | 7 10 | D2
Vss | 8 9 | D3
|_________|
The F1 types are 82S137 (or TI24S41, MMI6353, 74S573, 27S33, 93453, etc)
18-pin DIL 1024 words x 4-bit wide.
Pin spacing is 0.1", pin column pitch is 0.3".
Access times are typically 40ns from address, or 20ns from /CS.
____ ____
| U |
A6 | 1 18 | Vcc
A5 | 2 17 | A7
A4 | 3 16 | A8
A3 | 4 15 | A9
A0 | 5 14 | D0
A1 | 6 13 | D1
A2 | 7 12 | D2
/CS1 | 8 11 | D3
Vss | 9 10 | /CS2
|_________|
Note for all types: although the types listed are read-compatible,
each brand/type may use a very different programming algorithm.
Also note that these have tri-state outputs; other types (eg 27S13A)
have open-collector outputs.
----
And a potentially useful utility from Eric Smith:
https://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/m9312/
I have a vague recollection that someone kludged an 11/84 UBA (M8191) in the
manner that you describe but I can't find the reference at the moment.
Perhaps the memory of someone else will be jogged ...
-----
11:43 a.m.
On Jul 17, 2019, at 1:20 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel
at gmail.com> wrote:
From some notes (origin misplaced!) you'll need a typical access time of
40ns from address, or 20ns from /CS:
Thank you! That rules out using a 70ns EEPROM, then.
I think I have a line on most of the bootstrap PROMs that I will need, but I'm still
interested in the general problem of replacing defective bipolar PROMs and making new
ones, when I can't just order blanks from Digi-Key.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
2:54 p.m.
On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 9:43 AM Mark J. Blair via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
While the bipolar PROMs were faster, I think 70ns will work on an M9312,
though I haven't verified it. The timing for reading the nibbles from the
PROM to assemble into a 16-bit word is controlled by a delay line and
associated logic, and it looks like the required access time is on the
order of 100ns, with a cycle time on the order of 150ns.
On Jul 17,
2019, at 1:20 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
From some notes (origin misplaced!) you'll need a typical access time of
40ns from address, or 20ns from /CS:
Thank you! That rules out using a 70ns EEPROM, then.
6:31 p.m.
https://datasheetspdf.com/pdf-file/541962/AMD/AM27S13/1
Listed as a 50NS part
27S32 is listed at 70NS part.
On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 2:59 PM Eric Smith via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 9:43 AM Mark J. Blair via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
While the bipolar PROMs were faster, I think 70ns will work on an M9312,
though I haven't verified it. The timing for reading the nibbles from the
PROM to assemble into a 16-bit word is controlled by a delay line and
associated logic, and it looks like the required access time is on the
order of 100ns, with a cycle time on the order of 150ns.
On Jul
17, 2019, at 1:20 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
From some notes (origin misplaced!) you'll need a typical access time of
40ns from address, or 20ns from /CS:
Thank you! That rules out using a 70ns EEPROM, then.
6:56 p.m.
On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 4:31 PM Bob Smith <bobsmithofd at gmail.com> wrote:
https://datasheetspdf.com/pdf-file/541962/AMD/AM27S13/1
Listed as a 50NS part
27S32 is listed at 70NS part.
70ns is the mil temp range rating for the 27S32; the commercial spec is 55
ns.
70ns parts would probably work fine in an M9312, as would any bipolar PROM
with the same memory organization and pinout.
I expect that 70ns doesn't meed the DEC purchase specification for
23-000A9-01, but unless we turn up a copy of the actual purchase
specification, we won't really know. It seems likely that the purchase
specification would have required 55ns, as that was a very common "slow"
speed grade for bipolar PROMs. Almost all bipolar PROM vendors offered at
least one faster speed grade, but they cost more so DEC would only have
specified that for designs that needed it, and it would have had a
different purchase specification, rather than the common 23-000A9-01.
7:15 p.m.
On Jul 17, 2019, at 3:56 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I expect that 70ns doesn't meed the DEC purchase specification for
23-000A9-01, but unless we turn up a copy of the actual purchase
specification, we won't really know. It seems likely that the purchase
specification would have required 55ns, as that was a very common "slow"
speed grade for bipolar PROMs.
Also, while bootstrap PROMs may not necessarily need anything faster than 70ns (I seem to
recall seeing a comment in the M9301 docs about 70ns being the minimum speed, but I may
have made that up), faster PROMs may have been needed in other places where they were used
as logic gates.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
7:02 p.m.
At 70ns, I can make the design pretty simple by using an EEPROM. I did some trial
synthesis targeting a Lattice MachXO2 part, and I think I could get the speed down into
the 20ns range that way, at the cost of a more complex board design and needing to use
Lattice's synthesis tool to prepare programming data.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
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