The problem is that many simple/cheap inverters have _horrible_ output waveforms. Induction motors (as used in the Model 33) don't like them, and actually, the inverters don't much like highly inductive loads... I believe we actually want a 60Hz inverter here. -tony

jamesd wrote: The Tech Museum sounds like a good idea. Thanks. I like Linux, but don't think I want to track down Linus Torvalds. :) Oh yes, Garlic World in Gilroy is a must stop for us. We have been several times and plan to stop this time as well. Where is Fry's computer store? We have a Chevy's right here in Greenbelt, Maryland, complete with tortilla machine in full view. But at some point I probably will be up for a shot of tequila. Nice plug. If you ever come to the DC area, the Chevys in Greenbelt, MD near Goddard Space Flight Center (where I work) is a nice one. I'm going to JPL at least one day while in the LA area, and Pasadena is close to Anaheim, so I might make it to Bob's for lunch. James, thanks for the suggestions. It is exactly what I wanted when I asked on this list. Eric

On Sun, 8 Jun 2003, jamesd wrote: But...will it work in my VAX? ;P -Toth

On Sat, 7 Jun 2003, jamesd wrote: The TechMuseum is one of those places that you go away from feeling cheated. Go to the Exploratorium in SF instead. Can you say "restraining order"? ;) And Buffalo Burgers! Yum! Go to the one in Sunnyvale to see the Apple-1. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *

On Sun, 8 Jun 2003, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: Some background for people who don't live on the U.S. west coast or in Arizona, apart from Fry's being a cheap electronics reseller of notorious repute, many (all?) or their stores have "themes." My favorite (and I use that term loosely) Fry's has to be the one in Burbank, California on Hollywood Way near the airport. It's store theme is that of 1950-60s sci-fi movies. Visible from the parking lot, there's a flying saucer crashed into the side of the building. Inside there are a variety of aliens, giant ants, a monster octopus, and some GIs in an old army jeep that's been sliced in half by an alien's ray gun blast. The other ones I've visited are the ancient Roman themed one down around Fountain Valley in Orange County and the Tiki/island themed one near LAX. I visited the San Diego one years ago now, but I wasn't paying attention to anything apart from the electronic gear. I've only had one defective purchase experience there. I bought three external drive enclosures from them. Two of the three enclosures had defective (and very cheaply made) power supplies, so I ended up taking them all back and getting a refund. I've avoided the place for at least three or four years now; basically since the late 1990s when the DIY PC upgrades side of things became mainstream. Aside from the sometimes interesting decor, I find being stuck in a Fry's to be a nauseating experience. You've got sales clerks incessantly chasing you around, asking if they can help you. At least I think they're asking to help me; half the time it's hard to know what is being said. Then you've got various senior clerks at POS terminals over near the hard drive, motherboard, and memory aisles. They tend to struggle with basic data entry. Good luck trying to have them check to see if a particular motherboard or drive is in stock. And god help you if you're a clueless customer who accepts "technical advice" from one of them. If you make it a rule to avoid the store sales staff at all costs, you'll have better luck with your purchase. Then, at least in more recent years, there are the masses of rude and technologically inept customers, pushing their way about the store. Sometimes a cluster of them will pause for a moment, and the "guru" in the bunch will loudly yammer away in misinformed techno-babble to the other members in the shopping party. Their heads bob in acknowledgement and awe of their computer genius friend. Come to think of it, the experience of shopping at Fry's (or CompUSA, Best Buy, Radio Shack, or Circuit City), as a modern /cultural/ experience is probably one of the single greatest reasons that I've turned to classic computing as a hobby. The mainstream PC and Windows mindset is one of general incompetence; those who subscribe to it effectively accept that their hardware and software fails all the time because "that's how computers are." Bleh. -brian.

The one in Burbank is a movie theme with a spaceship smashed into the front and lots of movie monster sculptures inside. The San Diego one is kind of dull. It used to be an Incredible Universe (if anyone remembers those), and they still use Incredible Universe delivery trucks presumably because Fry's is too cheap to repaint them. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser(a)floodgap.com -- WWJD? JWRTFM. --------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for your tip about the CHAC. Be sure to look here: Says it Juuust Opened! John A.

On Sat, 7 Jun 2003, Eric Chomko wrote: Well, it's not a new government building. That's the old Silicon Graphics HQ building. SGI sold it off to the CHM as part of their attempts to stay afloat. I hear the CHM folks got a great price for it (dumpster diving on a grander scale). -brian.

On 2003.06.07 14:14 Thilo Schmidt wrote: [...] Details? -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz

Weird Stuff in Sunnyvale is an interesting stop. http://www.weirdstuff.com/sunnyvale/html/sunnyvale.htm --- Eric Chomko <vze2wsvr(a)verizon.net> wrote:

Erik, Why do you suggest that Fry's is "effectively stealing from the general public." At 03:42 PM 6/7/03 -0700, you wrote:

Hello Jim, I didn't know you were having those kinds of problems there. When I was in San Diego till mid 90's, we didn't have a Fry's there yet, so I loved to stop into one every time I went on a training assignment up to the LA and Bay areas. With all the stuff they had there, I was like a kid in a candy store. Best Regards At 10:05 PM 6/7/03 -0700, you wrote:

Fry's is definitely a mixed blessing. A great store to buy that hard to find connector or IC, but not necessarily to buy current PC stuff. If you are careful, you shouldn't have many problems. I have made perhaps 150 purchases there and only had one problem with some SDRAM. And so what if they don't have the "legal" right to inspect your bag at the door, if it deters shoplifting (a cost that all of us bear) then it's worth the few seconds wait.

On Sat, 7 Jun 2003, Wayne M. Smith wrote: Maybe you don't mind the insinuation that you are guilty of something until showing your receipt for someone to mark it with a highlighter somehow magically admonishes you of any wrong-doing, but I do. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *

In the case of Costco and other "membership" stores, one could argue that by joining, one agrees to the practice. So there, I let them check my receipt on the way out. Anywhere else (e.g. Best Buy, CompUSA), no way. I've never had one press the issue--if I ever did, not sure I'd go through the money and trouble to file suit, but I certainly would return anything I had purchased that visit and not come back. Now if the stores wanted to post a sign saying I'm subject to search on leaving, I'd just not come in. But search me on the way out, after having purchased items, with no prior agreement? No way. In fact, I'm angrier at the sheep that let them than at the stores themselves.

Unaccustomed as I am to backwards threads . . . it deters just like "the club" stops car thefts. Anyone can beat the club who wants too (you can saw through the steering wheel in 15 seconds and remove it), but why bother when the next car over doesn't have one? Even a small increment of greater risk will send the thief to an easier target. And, if you don't shop there, why in the hell do you care?

On Sun, 8 Jun 2003, Wayne M. Smith wrote: That somehow makes it OK? I don't follow that logic at all :( -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *

Wayne M. Smith wrote: Heh Heh, I live in a small town. The wait at DMV is never more than 5-10 mins. No stop lights either. Jim

On Wed, 11 Jun 2003, Hans Franke wrote: Amsterdam is likewise in size, but: it doesnt have any lines at DMV (CBR). Why? BECAUSE YOU F* CANNOT JUST GO THERE In Holland, it takes 3 *MONTHS* to get something done with or for your drivers license. Like, if you need to do a driving test, you need to apply (through a driving school, usually !) and that takes, oh, anywhere between two and three months before you get a DATE for the test. If you fail the test, all starts over again. Bah. I'll take the 1-hr DMV line anytime ;) --f

No Way. Service is the key here. I don't want to learn how to fill out the right form, or in which sequence I have to press a button, just to learn afterwards, if I had done it different I would have saved a lot of money. Nanana, I want a human beeing, which does realy give me the needed service to perform the required task. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 5.0 am 01./02. Mai 2004 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/

Be shure, I'll make them :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 5.0 am 01./02. Mai 2004 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/

"Wayne M. Smith" wrote: I have a choice whether to use Fry's, whereas I am forced to use the DMV.

Sure, for a short ride on a dry day. Try cycling 10K miles per annum that I drive. Besides don't you know that it is un-American to not use gas and support Big Oil? Eric "Fred N. van Kempen" wrote:

"Fred N. van Kempen" wrote: Does Royal Dutch Shell run your government, too?

Maybe you could stop by Halted... : ^ ) www.halted.com - has a map, Near where central expressway and lawrence express way cross in Santa Clara (between sunnyvale and San Jose) In the Santa Clara location we currently have "Make an offer" racks out front. locations also in Sacramento and Rhonert Park. (ob disclaimer - I do work for Halted Ask for RON at the counter, we don't get commissions or anything but I'd say HI!)

re: http://www.halted.com The links are munged in advance by the server with a preceding "noparse#http://w..." that deactivates them. This happens when you have scripting turned off in your browser. The links would work fine _with_ this browser setting if the server didn't go and break them for you. This may be a way to keep you from trying to order online which probably actually needs the scripting active in that case, unlike for browsing which does not. Not a great design, but heck, even HP has made bad www choices in the past. Sure does. John A. I should add that I have visited HSC in 1991 and heavily in 1988 and wouldn't miss a chance to go when in town. It's a browse-in-person kind of place anyway.

On Tuesday, June 10, 2003, at 09:51 PM, Jim wrote: The "View Products" part of our website now currently has pointers to some of the people we buy stuff from to sell to the public. Stuff like our line of Basic Stamps from Parallax. Take a look at "Equipment Specials" for the bigger surplus stuff we have. Most everything else is components like resistors or ICs

On Wednesday, June 11, 2003, at 01:02 AM, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: HEY! I resemble that remark. Hows your foot now? OK I hope. (This is my own speech here not Halted's )

On Tue, 10 Jun 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: They do, and so what? I'm not stealing anything, so I cannot be bothered by them wanting to check my bag in the hopes to find the bad guys. Similar to some woman freaking out at the (SFO) airport, 'cos one of the green boys wanted to search her bag. If you have nothing to hide, why bother screaming? DMV San Jose took me, oh, an hour. SMV Santa Clara usually takes me the same.. only DMV Mtn Vw takes me ~15 mins, sometimes longer. It helps bunches if you actually speak (or, at least, understand) English, unlike several people from apparently Korea who demanded their gramma was given a drivers license. Sadly, she didnt speak a word of English, couldnt read it either (so much for the YIELD sign..) and got into frantic-rage mode when made clear that she could not get a license, as she could not even be asked her name. [MUCH later that day, I heard that they arrested her family for threatening the girl at the counter...] Lines are, afaik, a fact of life. I don't like them, but cannot change it, so.. dont really care. Altho DMV *could* check out how the folks at In-N-Out prcess lines of people wanting to be served :) --f

On Tue, 10 Jun 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: Would Holland, being a Const. Monarchy, do? :) Indeed, you have Bush. Enjoy the pain. But lets not get into that totally offtopic stuff here. --f

On Wed, 11 Jun 2003, Hans Franke wrote: Who told you that? Tis a lie.. The cops are usually OK, its probably your own attitude they will reflect when dealing with you.. I am pretty much nice and friendly when dealing with a cop (the U.S. taught me that ;-) and they usally are the same with me. And, indeed, they dont *usually* stop you for silly things, like when I got pulled over and fined (heavily) for having a broken headlight. Here, they'll pull you over and let you know that the light is broken, and that it'd be better and safer to have it replaced- soon. If you're speeding, but not too much (like, say, 135 where 120 is allowed), they'll pass you, and the dude not driving will make the "dude, slow down a bit" gesture with his hands, rather than pulling you over. Stuff like that. But, Holland is full of *other* insanities, trust me. --f

On Wed, 11 Jun 2003, Chad Fernandez wrote: The driver can. Yes. You didnt get the point. THe cops can just as easy pull you over, fine you, and/or take your car and/or license. According to the strict letter of the law. They often dont, and, rather, politely point out that you shouldn't do that. It was meant as an example of how a government *can* be strict, but wont, and instead focus on more serious crap. --f

Chad Fernandez wrote: Well, I have to add, around here in the city areas where I live, it does happen frequently that people _don't_ realize they have one headlight out. With all of the streetlamps around, its difficult to tell the difference. There have been a few times, when I'm in a rush that I don't even notice for a bit that mine are not even on. So, when an officer does stop me to tell me I have a problem with my vehicle, I thank him for his politeness... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818

On Thu, 12 Jun 2003, Doc wrote: I don't know. Maybe because you live in Texas? :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *

Doc wrote: They're not thinking about what's going on..... they're just taking the easy way out, so they can deal with the things that immediately concern them. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA

I don't see it that way. They check everyone so that they'll necessarily sweep in the crooks and would be crooks. Whether it's effective is a separate question. Can you say "governmental immunity"? Sure, I knew you could.

On Tue, 10 Jun 2003, Hans Franke wrote: Since the bag-check is AFTER the cash registers, it does nothing to deter shoplifting. The only thing that it has any effect on is preventing the cashiers from giving unauthorized deals to their friends. Every visitor to the area should see it. Once. You do NOT qualify. Your English is too good, you can read and write, you are too intelligent, you are polite, and you are aware that computers existed before this year. I do NOT expect computer expertise on the part of the sales staff. But I expect them to know the layout of the store better than I do, and on large ticket items (such as a TV), I expect them to be able to find the manual for the demo machine. And, if I ask for something that they don't carry (such as 720K diskettes), I do not want to be told that what I'm asking for does not exist. ("There isn't any such thing. All diskettes are 1.44 M")

Rumor has it that Hans Franke may have mentioned these words: Like our new Seat Belt law... I hurt no-one by not wearing it, but it costs me $100USD if I'm caught without it -- and there have been no documented studies _that anyone can show me_ [1] with regards to how many accidents people are maimed or killed *by seat belts*, who would be alive or less injured had they not worn them. My brother is still kicking because twice he defied the law -- on 2 occasions, he would be dead if he'd worn his seat belt... And yes, I don't think it should be a crime to commit suicide, either -- it's my life![2] Personal or not, you're quite right. Agree or disagree with the war, I *still* see so many people blame the troops for it -- it's not their fault! All they can do is the best they can... ... and yet, the "support the troops" movement for some people is a bit too strong as well -- here in the US there's a huge "push" to wear a yellow ribbon to show support for the troops -- nevermind that the song this comes and I had one lady I never met *rip me limb from limb* when I wasn't wearing a ribbon. I simply said: "Look here, lady; I supported our troops by *being one* for 6 years." She didn't even apologize - she just walked away (quietly at least... thankfully). [snip] I don't think you're qualified, Hans! You're knowledge of english is already too good, from the sounds of it, and most of the real computer knowledge I use day to day is over (or at least near) 10 years old... OnTopic: I *might* be able to make that next year - Hans, are there any really good Deutschland map websites out there? I have an uncle in ?Garmisch? (I'd have to look that up) and I served for 3 weeks in Oerbke (about 50km north of Hannover)... I've got enough American Express points that I could have 2 free European Round-Trip tickets -- the wife & I might be headed for Germany sometime - maybe I'll plan to fly there??? Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] Many people say they exist - but when I say "show me" they become conspicuously quiet... [2] It's prolly a gubbermint conspiracy - The only reason I can think of for it to be illegal to take one's own life is because it would reduce the tax income. -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch(a)30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade?????????????

Rumor has it that Wayne M. Smith may have mentioned these words: The insurance company. It's been deemed (by our gubbermint) illegal for insurance companies to a) issue discounts to those who do wear their belts, and b) not cover those who aren't wearing their belts. Besides, no matter who's fault it is anyway, with no-fault insurance, it doesn't matter. It's my family who'll pay if I'm killed *because* of the damn things. In the last 10 years, I've avoided 5 accidents - all would have been the other drivers' fault (running red lights, etc.), 1 was without any passengers, 3 times the passenger[s] (once their hearts got back out of their throats) said "How'd you miss that? That should've been an accident!" and 1 was with a passenger who was a trucker for a long time... in a totally calm voice, all he said was "What a dumbfuck." What kind of compensation would I receive if I was injured *worse* due to a seatbelt? They're a gamble, just like life. More importantly, whatever happened to *personal responsibility*??? Regards, Roger "Merch" Merchberger P.S. The few accidents I have been in (none of which involved another vehicle if I was at fault - I always steer for the ditch in times of trouble) I *never* wore the belt, and I *always* walked away from them. -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch(a)30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade?????????????

I've long since started practicing my Pete Townsend "Windmill" deletes. IE, position your hand, index finger extended, 3~4 feet above and behind the delete key and lower in a circular motion - Fast! John A. ... Let the hand bounce back up to the raised position for the next eMail - just in case.

Mail List wrote: I'm reading this on a philips 109S monitor I believe I paid $139 last year, It will even work at 1900X1440 but I need reading glasses to see the well defined but timy font. I usually use it at 1280X1024. I also purchased a pixi ( cheap ) monitor that I have used for over 2 years with no problems, paid $99 both are 19", both at frys. The Oregonian sports back page has a full page every day, today,: 30 gig maxtor drive $29.95 ( 30$ rebate ) 256 MB DDR2100 $19.99 ( rebate )128 Meg flash 29.99 CD/RW 35$. , flat screen monitor, 19" .25 DP 1600X1200 149$ Jim

Jim Davis wrote: Sorry, Getting totally OT here, PC HEIDENS was considered the "SOUP NAZI" of the reseller world. Found their way to bankrupcy last year.. Har Har. NO CHIPS FOR YOU! What Frys does for the socialist/1984 idea of retail, PC Heidens wildly redefined the idea that the customer comes first. Never had a problem taking back stuff to frys ( not without a day long wait in line ). PC Heiden accused you of breaking it, if they took if back would keep it for months and then deny it was broken, and accuse you of fraud, cuss, never refund, bla bla bla. Amazing. Jim

Mail List wrote: The funny thing, they were 2 minutes from rohnler acres, Intel's biggest fab and surrounded by uncounted design, fab and software co.s, I wasn't aware of the joint until a geezer engineer and I went to get some quick memory one day. Still, a wouldn't do business with Pat Heiden.

On Sun, 8 Jun 2003, Mail List wrote: Just like with any retail establishment, they sucker you in with cheap shit in the hopes that you'll buy other stuff while you're there. Sometimes they offer good deals on good product, but the product is most likely a bin of returns that they've re-packaged and put back out on the floor. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *

On Sun, 8 Jun 2003, Mail List wrote: That's typical of new shoppers and out-of-towners. Larry Anderson and I once escorted a group of Finnish classic computer nerds to Fry's and it was like Disneyland for them. You don't actually realize just how lame Fry's is unless you live here and have gone there several times. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *

When its good at Fry's, its often great, but day to day I try every place else first. Fry's is a kind of Nerd Disneyland, its got a lot of space and a lot of stuff, and frequently the only place you could be pretty sure of finding 4 out of 5 odd items, but tack on to that long long checkout lines, employees that may or may not have a clue, ie everybody from Radio Shack shrugs, to people smart enough to feed you a total line of baloney and make it sound real. Best thing I can think of for collectors are the swapmeets, ACP, TRW, and Cal Poly Pomona. ACP (6/15, 7/27), Cal Poly 3rd Sat of month, TRW last Sat of month. Scrap places used to be fun, but I am about a year out of the loop, and places have changed.

On Sun, 8 Jun 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: Hmm... must be my cute appearance and sweet voice then, because I was NEVER treated badly @ Fry's. And jesus, at one point my friends just drove to Fry's rather than my place if they were looking for me, so I *did* spend some time there :) Basically... everyone there wearing a Fry's badge is clueless. That is a fact. They're paid to walk around and take your cash, but not anything else. Get your facts right BEFORE walking in, or you'll loose. Oh, and indeed, their return policy means: ---------- [with heavy Indian accent] Oooh, Sir, so it did not work? Let me call my Supervisor, and we will refund you then. [throws unchecked package on stack of stuff] Thank You, Sir, and shop here again! ---------- Later, I'd see someone with that stuff in a cart, returning the packages to their shelves.. ;-) Did I mention how I managed to get an ethernet card NOT working by accidentally plugging it into my 220VAC ? OK, so I didnt like the friggin card and wanted to return it, but still.. they never checked, and I am sure they just placed it back on the shelf... But, however clueless they are, they were never rude to me, or let me wait long. [mental note: DO NOT pay with a Platinum card. you WILL be talking to a black-hatted security professional soon after, usually one from the Sunnyvale Police.] All that said... I love to hang around there. The automatic piano in their Sunnyvale store rocks, and I have spent endless hours there, talking to customers who were looking for wireless [ethernet] gear, up to the point where I was asked by a staff member to help myself to anything in their coffee shop ;-) --fred

On Sun, 8 Jun 2003, Mail List wrote: 'cos they, smart as they are, will assume there is no way you, at your age, could possibly have one, legally. :) .. which 'd result in them yelling 'super!' and boom, there you are. --f

On Sun, 8 Jun 2003, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: Well, when I went there. And, I look young, that didnt help. Fortunately, my bank is right across the street there, so a quick call and their branch manager came in to Fry's, suggesting they very quickly drop it and offer their apologies to their (bank's) premier customer ;) Whee! They DID get the hint, by the way, I got the item for free, and never had trouble thereafter. But still. If you look suspicious, or do something suspicious, they usually dont go out of their way to make sure its innocent before calling the c0ps. --f

Fred N. van Kempen wrote: Nah, that ain't it. My voice is trashed from yelling over unbaffled diesels, and my appearance often frightens young children, but I do just fine in Fry's. I've shopped Fry's in Austin and Dallas Texas, and in Phoenix (Tempe, really) AZ, and haven't ever had a problem. I've gotten a couple of bad components, but overall, no worse than the local screwdriver shops. I've bought quite a few of their open-box specials and never gotten a dud. Maybe it's a California thing? I will agree that expecting *help* there is nuts. But folks, I bill in the neighborhood of $100/hr for knowing what to do with/to/about a computer. Can I *really* expect a $9/hr sales kid to know more than I do? Doc

Marvin Johnston wrote: I keep hearing about that, and I've frankly never seen it. The three times I've returned goods there, it took less than 20 minutes to get the replacement approved. Once in Tempe and twice in Austin. Of course, I never throw away any packaging or receipts until I know I'm keeping the item, at least 30 days on new parts. Doc

On Sun, 8 Jun 2003, Doc wrote: What a privelege. In most any other store, you return the item and get a new one in a few minutes, and there's no "approval" process. Ok, I'm done saying bad things about Fry's now. If it isn't obvious by now that they suck, you haven't been paying attention. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *

Vintage Computer Festival wrote: Why? Much better "I don't know" than "I don't know, but instead of admitting it, I'm gonna try to blow smoke up your butt." AKA CompUSA sales people. Those idjits are at least as clueless as Fry's help, but seem to be fundamentally incapable of admitting it. They're kids, man. They're working for dirt wages, and they get less training time than a janitor. And I've found, at least at Fry's, that if I'm half nice to them, they'll try really hard to find somebody who does have an answer. Doc

The only place I ever ask for help is the hardware store, and then only to ask what aisle something is in. At Fry's I give the evil eye to anyone that approaches.

I keep hearing that "smoke up your butt" stuff ever since I moved to the West Coast. In the midwest, it was always "blow sugar up your ass" -- makes more sense if you ask me. -W

Doc wrote: Here in the UK it's the animal lovers that would find this offensive... Dave.

On Tue, 10 Jun 2003, Doc wrote: It certainly sounds painful. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *

"Wayne M. Smith" wrote: Depends on the kind of smoke. It's CA, so most likely its the good kind of smoke. :)

Rumor has it that Ethan Dicks may have mentioned these words: Living in Michigan my whole life, I've heard it -> well, I need Linux-speak for this: blow [smoke|sunshine] up your [skirt|ass] (basically, any combo of the words in brackets, making for 4 different variations) but like Ethan, I've never heard sugar come into play before.[1] More OT Drivel for the list... ;-) "Merch" [1] I've also heard a variation with a bug crawling up one's arse - to mean that one was quite irritable that day... -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch(a)30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade?????????????

:) Does that work???? Anyway, over here it's literaly the same saying, 'Jemanden Zucker in den Arsch blasen' (blowin shugar up s.o. ass). So maybe it's taken from some German immigrants? (*1) The meaning is, depending of the region, either spoiling someone, or trying to convince s.o. (i.a. customer) by telling whatever he want to hear. Another similar wording is 'Dem Affen Zucker geben' (giving shugar to the ape) wich means geting back to your pet topic, or more exact giving giving the right catchword to s.o. so he'll jump right onto his pet topic. Gruss H. (*1) Of course there's still the possibility that it took the other way over the pond. -- VCF Europa 5.0 am 01./02. Mai 2004 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/

You guys are MUCH too easy on Fry's. Yes, they do suck rocks. Fry's does not have enough competence to "effectively steal". The Fry's staff has a much lower competence level than the MEDIAN of the general populace. It's where people go to work who can't pass the McDonald's written test. It helps if you speak multiple languages, because there are few employees who are really fluent in English. Yes, it is true that the majority of stuff that gets returned to a store isn't really broken. But putting it back on the shelves without testing it is inexcusable. They started off as a grocery store (part of the Fry's grocery chain), that added in a couple of aisles of electronics hobby stuff. Then they got rid of the stuff that hackers didn't want, like produce. In those days, they were great as a one-stop hackers' store - frozen food, candy, soda, aspirin, chips of both types, . . . Years ago, when they sold us dozens of sets of bad RAM for our 5150's, their "tech support" people "tested" them and declared them "good". We explained that they DID NOT WORK in real, genuine OEM IBM PC's. Their "tech support" people thought that OEM was a brand name. Eventually, after several letters of complaint, cc'ed to the editor of Microtimes (Mary Eisenstadt (sp?)), David? Fry himself came to us and replaced the bad RAM. It took my money and didn't give me my soda. But the staff were even less help than it. After more than 20 years as an industry "leader", it wasn't until about a year ago that they finally had enough in-house expertise to even HAVE a website! And don't forget the NOISE level! Try a Saturday afternoon. Do they really need to have a barker WITH AMPLIFICATION peddling washing machines? But we keep going back, because the prices are good, and it is a great experience for tourists. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com

On Sun, 8 Jun 2003, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: ...induced with the right kind of drugs I suppose. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *

Oh, don't get me started on Maplin. I call them 'Craplin' for a very good reason :-) You must be joking :-). Several of the Maplin shops in the london area have 10k resistors (you know, the common 0.6W ones that everybody uses) as special-order-only items (meaning it takes at least a week to get them!). They currently sell Fluke multimeters (and have them in the shops), but don't sell the spare fuses for them (for all they're listed in the catalogue). When I say 'don't sell', I don't mean special-order-only. They are discontinued! Another of their stupid tricks is stocking half a connector, They'll keep the plug in stock but not the socket or vice versa. %deity knows why... 10 years ago, they were better. Even then I don't think I ever got everything I wanted without having to order it, but I generally got most items. And special orders took a couple of days. Now, I rarely leave the shop with _anything_ I want. Antohhr change in policy relates to the small order surchage. For as long as I can remember, small orders (less than \pounds 5.00 I think) done by mail or phone have had a surchage (\pounds 5.00 or thereabouts added to them). At one time, if you ordered the components in the shop, they would send them to your home address without a surcharge (or postage charges) since it was their fault they didn't have them in stock. Not any more. In fact they tried to convince me that the surcharge even applied to special orders delivered to the shop. My comments at that point are not repeatable on a public list! And it seems to be the case that for many items the number kept in stock at the shops is lower than the first 'price break' for discounts (if that's for 10 items, say, they'll keep 9 in the shop). If you then buy those 9 and put one on special order you _don't_ get the discount price. And they can't seem to put 10 on order if they have some in stock. The only reason I go to Maplin is because there's nowhere else. Doing an order to RS or Farnell is a pain for a few components. -tony

Almost every retail chain worth their salt (Best Buy, Circuit City, Good Guys, et. al.) will price-match the competition. Bring in a Fry's ad and you can usually get the same deal with semi-competent English speaking sales staff in a more organized store that isn't organized crime. If people would stop shopping at Fry's we could finally be rid of those turkeys for good. Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-admin(a)classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 12:14 PM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Fry's sucks. (was: goin to CA soon, to be a CC tychoon Pretty much. Especially given how the prices, at least up here have gone up. When Fry's opened their Oregon store, they had really good prices, often better than the local hole in the wall PC shops. When DVD's started to hit mainstream, they had really good prices. Now overall, a trip to Best Buy is more worth my time. For us, it's a long trip, and the last time we went, which was a month or two ago, after over 9 months, the prices sucked! There are some simple rules though to make your buying experience better. 1. Know what prices should be on stuff! 2. Have a reason besides Fry's to be in the area (In our case, first we visit my Grandmother, and we finish it off by going to a resturant that we like). 3. Only buy new merchandise (or a least try to). 4. Only go when there is a bunch of stuff you're looking for. 5. Don't buy anything there that you might want to return (though I must admit, they were very easy to deal with the one time we returned something). 6. Don't get sucked in by their sales! Do they ever have enough sale HD's in stock? 7. Know what the competition in the area sells the same stuff for! In other words know what prices should be on stuff! Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |

general Fry's has several "policies" in place (or used to, I haven't been in that crap-hole for years) that fall under that category. They have shrink-wrap machines at every location and often re-wrap returns to re-sell as new - even those reported as defective by the customer returning them! (Hearsay from an ex-employee followed up by observing stacks of items that, to me anyway, were obviously re-wrapped) They deliberately make returns difficult so that people who buy recycled junk often won't bother to try getting their money back. If they do, the item's usually just head back to the shelves anyway. (Again, told to me by an ex-employee who I consider reliable) I remember purchasing RAM for an old P-III there once. The first SIMMS were bad so I brought them back. They tossed them on a tester at the returns desk (which took 45 minutes to get to) and told me "Yup, they're bad." Not one, not two, not even three, but ALL FOUR that I purchased were defective. The returns clerk put them in a large parts bin already full of similar items and, I'm fairly certain, eventually put that bin back in the stock area. I asked if I could do an exchange and test the replacements before I left and was told that store policy prohibited that. . . !!! I consider those things to be theft. The fact that I haven't met a Fry's employee who wasn't a drooling idiot (my friend was obviously too bright for the place! :) and the fact that the store always seemed to be out of the single thing you came in for always bothered me as well. One fun thing to try, by the way: When the Fry's bonehead at the guarded exit tries to search your bag, just walk on by. As it turns out they can't legally search your property (which the bag is the moment you pay for it) unless they have some reasonable belief that you are stealing. If they don't have this and detain you it is the equivalent of false arrest. I'm not alone, by the way: http://www.nonmundane.org/~dspisak/frys/frys.html http://www.accesscom.com/~dave6592/ http://billzhouse.com/rants/frys.html http://www.doofus.org/frys/ ("What Fry's won't tell you is that you do not have to let them inspect your bags. In fact, it is illegal for Fry's to detain you to search your property without first charging you with shoplifting.") http://archive.salon.com/21st/feature/1998/05/cov_21feature2.html ("And the horror stories are not just anecdotal. Most of Fry's Silicon Valley stores have "unsatisfactory" records with the Santa Clara Better Business Bureau for not responding to complaints -- although they do appear to resolve complaints reported to the Santa Clara County district attorney.") The list goes on, I just wish Fry's wouldn't. Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-admin(a)classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mail List Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 9:40 PM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Subject: RE: goin to CA soon, to be a CC tychoon Erik, Why do you suggest that Fry's is "effectively stealing from the general public." At 03:42 PM 6/7/03 -0700, you wrote: out a later I me

Hello Erik, http://www.nonmundane.org/~dspisak/frys/frys.html http://www.accesscom.com/~dave6592/ http://billzhouse.com/rants/frys.html http://www.doofus.org/frys/ http://archive.salon.com/21st/feature/1998/05/cov_21feature2.html I read a few of those pages. As far a the fellow that didn't like not being able to return opened software. If they didn't have that policy in place, there would be many instances of people buying software, taking it home and copying it, and then attempting to take it back for a refund. A certain percentage of bad apples abuse the privilege, and the software industry had to do something about it. If he wants to know if a program is any good before he bought it, he should read the magazine reviews first. It's unfortunate that software selling stores don't have a system set up in the stores with the software packages already loaded on a test system where people could try it out there before buying. I thing Egghead did something like that at one time. As far a delays caused by wanting to pay by check, that happens at the grocery store too. I just cringe when waiting in the checkout line and I see someone ahead getting out their check book. If you want to get through the process faster, get a debit card for your checking account. It really makes it so much easier. With the guy that wrote that they didn't want to take his check because he had bounced a check a few months earlier, no wonder. I wouldn't want to take a check from someone that bounced checks either. As far as having purchases examined before leaving, they do that here too at CompUSA. The computer stores probably have a bad shoplifting problem. Many cutting edge computer parts are significant value, small package items. I just show them my bag and receipt, and move on. As far as being out of stock on the advertised item. Happens at CompUSA here too. It kind of sucks the way they do that, but I heard from the CompUSA employee that when CompUSA would advertise a sale price on something like a SIMM, they would only have a very limited number ( like six or seven pieces in an area with a population in the million+ range ) of them at each store. It's their "loss leader" ( is what I'd heard it called in the retail market), advertised to get people into the store. There is a line that forms before opening time on the day the ad flyer comes out in the newspaper. When I heard that, I just quit bothering with it. It wasn't worth wasting the time, just to save a few bucks, especially when it would usually be for naught unless you went through all that extra hassle for it. One thing I finally got completely fed up with is the rebate stuff. Last two things I got from CompUSA, I sent in the rebate forms and copies of the receipt, and they sent me back a card saying they were denying issuing the rebate because they didn't get a copy of the sales receipt. Guess what, the rebate form was stapled to the copy of the sales receipt. If they got the one, they most definitely got the other. Then they have these 800 numbers to call that result in naught. It's beginning to seem they're doing all that on purpose. Throw so many hurdles in the way of getting the rebate, that many just give up and never receive them. On the last two things I bought at CompUSA, I think there is still one rebate check I didn't receive, but it's been so long, I'm not even sure about it anymore. If they don't have instant rebates at the cash register anymore, they can take their rebate and shove it. I'm surprised there aren't class action lawsuits and federal investigation into the management of these rebate programs. As far as hardware returns, there was a guy around here, who eventually worked as a tech for some small clone shops, that would build or upgrade computers for his family, neighbors, etc. I heard he plugged the power connector to a floppy drive on backwards, burned out the drive's electronics, and then took it back to the computer store where he got it, knowing it was his own fault for burning it up, just telling them that it didn't work, to get another, instead of accepting responsibility for his own actions. I heard of another guy pulling a board out of the computer while it was powered up, damaging the motherboard. Selling computer parts to the general public can be a problem. Warranties are for defects in material or workmanship, and are not meant to cover failures caused by negligence or abuse. I even heard of a person that would intentionally damage the heads in his VCR with a screwdriver just before the warranty period was up, just so he could go get another unused unit. These stores that sell computer parts to the general public have to deal with those kind of problems every day. Then, it happens often that a part that is reported bad, isn't really bad at all. Sometimes it's user difficulties instead. And sometimes it's incompatibility issues. I had a Viking modem one time that just would not work in one particular motherboard, but worked perfectly in another motherboard, though other modems would work perfectly in that first motherboard. I've seen many other instances of many pieces of hardware not working when it would work perfectly under other circumstances. I'm so glad I don't mess with computers for home users anymore.

Hello Erik, I believe you. I haven't been to a Fry's in eight years now. We don't have them here on the east coast. In that much time, things sure could have gotten a whole lot worse there than I remember. I really didn't like buying PC parts at Circuit City. I've just never tried Best Buy yet. Not too thrilled with buying computer parts from Office Max or Office Depot either. So I still have to pick up stuff from CompUSA, clone shops, or mail order. As I mentioned in a previous message, one of my favorite places for PC parts is "The Chip Merchant" in San Diego. http://www.thechipmerchant.com/ Best Regards At 08:47 AM 6/8/03 -0700, you wrote:

On Sun, 8 Jun 2003, Erik S. Klein wrote: I alway figure an ~$100 add-on for the "Frys experience" Then see if what they have is still a bargain, Usually keeps me away... Peter Wallace

On Sat, 7 Jun 2003, Erik S. Klein wrote: One fun game to play in Fry's is "Let's Try to Find a New, Un-opened Package". And I don't mean to sound racist, but it would be nice if they could hire people that could properly enunciate the English language. But I'm afraid having them actually know anything about computers or electronics would be too much to ask. I have never stopped for that clown and nothing in California law gives them the right to detain you unless you either a) consent or b) they have a reasonable suspicion as you've mentioned. It is one of the rudest retail practices I have ever experienced. Other lame places like CompUSA and some Home Depots have adopted this practice. It's fun when the Simulation Guard feels jilted when you just walk by them and they call after you. I usually tell them to get a real job. You're not the only one, brother. That they have managed to survive until this day is one of the great Silicon Valley Mysteries (even more mysterious than the Winchester Mystery House!) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *

On Sun, 8 Jun 2003, Eric Chomko wrote: Wear a condomn, just in case... -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *

I was born and raised in NY and I'm far from soft. I've done my fair share of yelling at 57th street and Crazy Eddie as well as at the Fry's dipshits. The fact that the attitude is prevalent and service is for crap almost everywhere doesn't make it right. Those who tolerate it just add to the problem by supporting "businessmen" who's attitudes are not customer friendly. Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Yerkes [mailto:chuck+ccmp@2003.snew.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 4:58 AM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: classiccmp(a)vintage-computer.com Subject: Re: goin to CA soon, to be a CC tychoon I must address... Some item by item below, but Fry's is no different than any store in NYC I've dealt with. It's just that californians, because of the weather, are soft and weak and don't like their mellows to be harshed. J&R music was across the st. from my office, once upon a. In January, one of our programmers broke a leg or something. Work petty cash (4 $50 bills) and walked over with my morning coffee. "Sir! you can't bring that in here." Ok, so I checked my coffee and got a ticket. The counter girl sort of laughed and rolled her eyes. Went to the Mac area. All the sales guys were clustered,talking about their weekends. I waited. Some. Then I fanned out the $50's over my head and shouted, "Hey, I need to spend this money; anyone want to help?" I took the *second* guy who came over. Then I dealt with the game of "pay at the counter and wait 10 minutes for the item to come up from the bowels." Instead, I gave them money and left (checking out my coffee to the bemusement of the new guy there) and got it before lunch. "where were you sir? this has been waiting." "I had better things to do that stand around for a handsized device you could have on the shelf." We can chat about 47th St Photo and that the only time I saw good customer service not in the model of "mock the customer but he'll come to you because you're the cheapest" was when they were in Chap 11. Bought a Nikon from a Woman(!) who was Iraqi and (most imp), was a professional photographer. We had fun going through cameras and I ended up going to an exhibit she had going. Quite the change from "You stupid american, here is the camera you should buy" that I got from the Israeli who usually ran the counter. I enjoy Fry's for some of that. But yes, it is the 7th circle. Quoting Erik S. Klein (classiccmp(a)vintage-computer.com): general re-wrapped) recycled ... Well, they understaff for weekends. Find me a store that's not understaffed. Return on a tuesday at 4PM and you stroll through. You also get people who haven't been yelled at all day. SIMMS ... I consider those to be poor management and bad customer service. Those "in the know" know to look for the restock tag (a big white sticker). Somethings have several. After returning a DOA power supply (with 3! stickers), I insisted that it not be restocked and the mgr concurred enthusiastically. It went into a DOA bin. I'm believing it stayed there. (ironically an Antec PS - company based not 5 miles from them (and Antec is the only PC PS I'll buy)). idiot that Actually, esp of late, I found some good geeks there. I pulled out my Zaurus to look up a note and a sales guy jumped over to see and asked me smart questions (do you have ssh for it, how's it with blue tooth, etc). I was looking for a 64MB thumbdrive that was $5 after rebate (I *hate* rebates). We couldn't find any. He went behind the cashier counter and found me one where someone had perhaps picked up more than the per-person limit and the cashiers put extra stuff in the restock carts. But keep in mind the talent you get for sales floor at $7 + commissions on certain items. That's every where. guarded pay The California Commercial Code declares that you own it when you give them money. CompUseLessA, Home Depot, Staples, Blood Bath & Beyond all have the door guards... Your locally owned merchants often disguise them as nice folks standing there to say "thanks" and "come again." I don't open my bag. We all miss Canal St in NY (finding 1pF capacitors and cheap 'scopes and RAM for my Apple ][ in '88 made me happy). We all miss when the US was competitive in manufacturing, design and even when calls to customer services went to US workers. But face it, we get jobs designing software and we get to work at counters (want Fry's with that?). This is the future. At *least* they are locally owned (bay area). So keep shopping at merchants whose offices are 4000 miles from your local economy. Enjoy your Home Depot with knockoff quality items from Milwaukee and Hunter, made especially for HD to meet their low price needs. Go to Starbucks and make sure your money doesn't stay with someone nearby who might do business with you. Save your coupons for frozen vegetables - those farmers markets are so inconvenient. < 40% of Walmart employees have benefits (the largest employer in the US) Next time you call in a mail order, ask if they have benefits. Starbucks charges your $4 for a drink whose ingredients cost $0.10. Coke costs less than $0.07/can to make. You want service? Spend that 20% more for your item at the guy down the street. It may be too late, the spiral means that my local Mac store has been whacked by an Apple Corp. store. (where I sent them running around looking for a CP/M card for my "Apple 2" - the local store guy didn't fall for it). Welcome to the new economy. Fry's with that?

----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Chomko" &lt;vze2wsvr(a)verizon.net&gt; To: &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 7:56 AM Subject: goin to CA soon, to be a CC tychoon The Computer History Museum (www.computerhistory.org) is no longer at NASA Ames but closeby in Mountain View. It now has a permanent home at 1401 N. Shoreline Blvd. (one freeway off-ramp north of NASA). In fact the grand opening of the new location was just this past week. The tour schedule is currently: Wednesdays at 1pm Fridays at 1pm 1st & 3rd Saturdays at 1pm and 2pm It's best to let the museum know you're coming so that enough docents will be scheduled for that day (http://www.computerhistory.org/about/tour/). I'd second the suggestion of stopping at Fry's Electronics and The Tech [Museum of Innovation]. Intel also has a museum on their history. Sorry I don't know the hours. Finally, depending on how far south you're planning to travel, there's another computer museum just north of San Diego - The Computer Museum of America (www.computer-museum.org). Enjoy your trip. Dave Babcock Volunteer, Computer History Museum