15 Jun
2000
15 Jun
'00
3:19 a.m.
Good morning, all...
The subject line above might be a bit misleading.
In the short time I've been subscribed to the list,
I've seen a lot of negative criticism of E-Bay, or
rather, of trying to buy things found on E-Bay.
The criticisms all seem to concern how much an
item on E-Bay ends up costing. What I guess I
haven't seen said here is an acknowledgement
that the high prices are a result of parties
bidding against each other. I realize that in
some cases, some shill bidding may be going on,
but most of the time, I think I'm just seeing
prices go high because people really want an
item.
Now, as to why an original IMSAI will go for
$1200 when you can take about $800 and buy a
brand new one with a Z-80-descended processor
and a meg of bank-switched RAM, is beyond me.
OTOH, I see SOLs going for for high prices,
and they don't make those anymore.
But I've been able to find great buys on items
that aren't quite so popular, like TI Silent700
terminals, older wide-carriage printers, and so
on.
Having said that, one item I'd been trying to
buy for a while is a Wyse 50 terminal, with a
preferences for an amber screen. The ambers seem
to be more rare, and command a higher price on
E-Bay. Everytime one is for sale, someone goes
over my max price, and I don't get a terminal.
So, I decided to surf the web more broadly one
day (and not specifically looking at other auction
sites), when lo and behold, I find a guy up in
Michigan who has an amber Wyse 50 for sale; he
threw in a modem and a serial cable and shipped
it to me for a mere $25.00. It's a clean unit
with no visible screen burn. The F13 keycap
comes off easily; other than that, it's a fine
example of what became my favorite computer
terminal.
In closing, I'd say no one should limit themselves
to searching only at *any* auction site, but I wouldn't
avoid E-Bay just because prices sometimes range too
high.
regards,
-doug quebbeman
15 Jun
15 Jun
4:57 a.m.
At 08:19 15-06-2000 -0400, you wrote:
<snip>
In closing, I'd say no one should limit themselves
to searching only at *any* auction site, but I wouldn't
avoid E-Bay just because prices sometimes range too
high.
It's not just the pricing structure for me, and the fact that there are
clusters of morons Out There who have more money and time than common
sense. A big part of it for me is that, for sellers, E-pay will bury you in
listing fees, sales percentages, etc.
And their "privacy" policies for both buyers and sellers? Don't even get
me started! Give them a millimeter, and not only will they profile you to
death, but they will actually spam you. I wouldn't be in the least
surprised if they're reselling users' marketing data either.
The game show "Let's Make A Deal!" was once dubbed the "Seat of
Greed" in
the USA. I think that title has now been taken by E-pay. While I did have
some good luck with them several years ago, before they grew to the immense
size they are today, I think I can say with confidence that it's just "not
fun" any more.
When I put something up for auction, it goes to haggle.com. Much smaller,
much friendlier, and they don't charge anything for listings, nor do they
charge a percentage of the sale.
I definitely hear where your coming from, but E-pay is no longer a part of
my search routines when I'm looking for stuff.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies
http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com
Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77
"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our
own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."
7:28 a.m.
It's not just the pricing structure for me, and
the fact that there are
clusters of morons Out There who have more money and time than common
sense.
In other words, you're annoyed that someone might want the same item you
do, and might be willing to pay more than you are. Welcome to the world
of supply and demand. Of course your words could just as easily apply to
the stock market, or the farmers market for that matter.
Lack of time is one of the reasons I keep searching acution sites. What
I wouldn't give to be able to head to surplus stores more than about three
times a year. Some day I hope to live in that fantasy world where people
get weekends off. So my options are... 1) On that rare day off spend 8
hours in surplus stores looking for a part I'm probably not going to find,
while my wife curses me for not spending that rare day off with her. 2)
Do an automated auction search and (eventually) pay $20 for a $5 part.
A big part of it for me is that, for sellers, E-pay
will bury you in
listing fees, sales percentages, etc.
I see. You are both annoyed that buyers pay too much and that sellers
don't get every cent of the inflated price that the buyers pay.
When I put something up for auction, it goes to
haggle.com. Much smaller,
much friendlier, and they don't charge anything for listings, nor do they
charge a percentage of the sale.
And the final sales price is likely to be lower because of lesser traffic.
The difference will probably be more than what Ebay charges.
I definitely hear where your coming from, but E-pay
is no longer a part of
my search routines when I'm looking for stuff.
I make it a point not to rule anything out until the bid goes above what
I'm willing to pay.
--
Eric
1:08 p.m.
When I put
something up for auction, it goes to haggle.com. Much
smaller,
much friendlier, and they don't charge anything for listings, nor do they
charge a percentage of the sale.
And the final sales price is likely to be lower because of lesser traffic.
The difference will probably be more than what Ebay charges. 
16 Jan
16 Jan
1:50 p.m.
New subject: Diablo Hytype II Printer Ribbons
I have (6) Global Diablo Hytype II printer ribbons, 4 new in plastic
envelopes.
Shipping fee will take 'em.
Anyone?
P Manney
15 Jun
15 Jun
2:42 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Lane <kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 7:57 AM
Subject: Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay
At 08:19 15-06-2000 -0400, you wrote:
<snip>
in
In closing, I'd say no one should limit
themselves
to searching only at *any* auction site, but I wouldn't
avoid E-Bay just because prices sometimes range too
high.
It's not just the pricing structure for me, and the fact that there are
clusters of morons Out There who have more money and time than common
sense. A big part of it for me is that, for sellers, E-pay will bury you listing fees, sales percentages, etc.
And their "privacy" policies for both buyers and sellers? Don't even get
me started! Give them a millimeter, and not only will they profile you to
death, but they will actually spam you. I wouldn't be in the least
surprised if they're reselling users' marketing data either.
The game show "Let's Make A Deal!" was once dubbed the "Seat of
Greed" in
the USA. I think that title has now been taken by E-pay. While I did have
some good luck with them several years ago, before they grew to the
immense
size they are today, I think I can say with confidence
that it's just "not
fun" any more.
When I put something up for auction, it goes to haggle.com. Much smaller,
much friendlier, and they don't charge anything for listings, nor do they
charge a percentage of the sale.
I definitely hear where your coming from, but E-pay is no longer a part of
my search routines when I'm looking for stuff.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies
http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com
Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77
"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our
own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."
2:50 p.m.
Gee! I had no idea they had a pricing structure for buyers. The "take"
that they claim is pretty low by comparison with sale through consignment at
the local surplus electronics store. Moreover, eBay lets you sell whatever
you want to sell.
I've paid the eBay guys about $10 which I felt was a small cost for getting
rid of, and paid for, things I otherwise couldn't even get someone to pick
up. I certainly don't find that eBay has "buried" me in anything.
Clearly,
I was unhappy when one of my items was listed under stuffed animals and
found by a lone bidder, who was willing to pay my minimum, which I'd happily
have accepted any time. Of course I've not listed dozens of things at once,
nor have I ever attempted to buy anything there. The latter, of course, is
because I don't want more obsolete computer equipment.
Not everybody will understand, much less, agree with, my position on eBay,
but, like prostitutes and lawyers, they provide a service that's of use to
some.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Lane <kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 7:57 AM
Subject: Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay
At 08:19 15-06-2000 -0400, you wrote:
<snip>
in
In closing, I'd say no one should limit
themselves
to searching only at *any* auction site, but I wouldn't
avoid E-Bay just because prices sometimes range too
high.
It's not just the pricing structure for me, and the fact that there are
clusters of morons Out There who have more money and time than common
sense. A big part of it for me is that, for sellers, E-pay will bury you listing fees, sales percentages, etc.
And their "privacy" policies for both buyers and sellers? Don't even get
me started! Give them a millimeter, and not only will they profile you to
death, but they will actually spam you. I wouldn't be in the least
surprised if they're reselling users' marketing data either.
The game show "Let's Make A Deal!" was once dubbed the "Seat of
Greed" in
the USA. I think that title has now been taken by E-pay. While I did have
some good luck with them several years ago, before they grew to the
immense
size they are today, I think I can say with confidence
that it's just "not
fun" any more.
When I put something up for auction, it goes to haggle.com. Much smaller,
much friendlier, and they don't charge anything for listings, nor do they
charge a percentage of the sale.
I definitely hear where your coming from, but E-pay is no longer a part of
my search routines when I'm looking for stuff.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies
http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com
Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77
"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our
own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."
5:35 a.m.
On Thu, 15 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote:
The subject line above might be a bit misleading.
In the short time I've been subscribed to the list,
I've seen a lot of negative criticism of E-Bay, or
rather, of trying to buy things found on E-Bay.
That's right, and for good reason.
The criticisms all seem to concern how much an
item on E-Bay ends up costing. What I guess I
haven't seen said here is an acknowledgement
that the high prices are a result of parties
bidding against each other. I realize that in
That's the reason it's unpopular and referred to as e-bilk. Please
allow me to explain. For years (at least a decade), many of us became
used to seeing things advertised at a certain price on Usenet
newsgroups, or place "wanted" ads in the newsgroups. Prices were
often seen as "[some random price] or best offer." When we found what
we were looking for, the first one to reply to a posting was usually
the one who got what was advertised, and, we could haggle with the
seller over the price and usually pay a fair price for something or
get it at a very low price... sometimes for the cost of shipping. A
lot of times, this stuff was basically surplus from some company
wanting to get rid of stuff or someone cleaning out their garage of
stuff that would have otherwise gone out as garbage.
Then, along came a few people who decided to auction stuff of on
newsgroups, not content to sell it to the first person who contacted
them, then, there was e-bilk, and many of the ads on Usenet
disappeared, or else began to announce something that was going to be
auctioned off on e-bilk.
I think its fair to say that many of us "collect" older systems,
particularly those who have been doing it for quite a while, are doing
it as a hobby - for fun, not profit. We're not collecting systems
like baseball-card, art and coin collectors; we obtain systems for
hack value, because we just like playing with them, not because we're
looking for investment items. Of course, over the past few years,
many new computer "collectors" have appeared as "computer collecting"
seems to be the in thing to do; some of these collectors just collect
computer equipment in large quantities and pack them away, buying the
entire inventories of hamfest vendors at a time without even seeing
what all they're buying; these are probably the same collectors who
are bidding high prices on e-bilk.
Now, do you understand?
I do agree with you that one can occasionally find bargain on e-bay
and other auction sites, but it's still npot the same as finding
things on Usenet or hamfests and haggling over the price.
--
R. D. Davis
rdd(a)perqlogic.com
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd
410-744-4900
6:11 a.m.
looking for investment items. Of course, over the
past few years,
many new computer "collectors" have appeared as "computer
collecting"
seems to be the in thing to do; some of these collectors just collect
computer equipment in large quantities and pack them away, buying the
entire inventories of hamfest vendors at a time without even seeing
what all they're buying; these are probably the same collectors who
are bidding high prices on e-bilk.
And the same people who take a surplus machine, break it up
for parts and auction it off a nut and a bolt at a time.
Or auction a card and its associate cabling separately.
Vultures...
Later,
Kenn
8:21 a.m.
And the same people who take a surplus machine, break
it up
for parts and auction it off a nut and a bolt at a time.
Or auction a card and its associate cabling separately.
Vultures...
Keep in mind that vultures are NOT an Ebay exclusive. People have been
doing this sort of selling since the first thing became collectable. I
don't like it, but it's life.
And to add to that, this bit about people parting machines and selling
them as parts on Ebay is way overblown. I think I have seen _three_
sellers that I suspect are doing this*. Out of the thousands that post
auctions to the vintage computer category, that's _not_too_bad_.
So quit whining about Ebay, everybody. I notice that probably half of
the people on this list use it. I'm one of them, both buying and selling.
We are not "clueless morons", thank you.
*For those that will immediately bring up the guy that sells bits of
metal from a Univac all the time - remember once he heard the slander
from this list, and it is quite clear that what he has
IS only metal. The
original machine is long gone. He is not a vulture.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
1 p.m.
looking for
investment items. Of course, over the past few years,
many new computer "collectors" have appeared as "computer
collecting"
seems to be the in thing to do; some of these collectors just collect
computer equipment in large quantities and pack them away, buying the
entire inventories of hamfest vendors at a time without even seeing
what all they're buying; these are probably the same collectors who
are bidding high prices on e-bilk.
And the same people who take a surplus machine, break it up
for parts and auction it off a nut and a bolt at a time.
Or auction a card and its associate cabling separately.
Vultures... 
16 Jun
16 Jun
5:18 a.m.
At 03:00 PM 6/15/00 -0700, Mike Ford wrote:
First show me someone, anyone on eBay etc. who is
making more than a
"paper" profit and minimum wage.
So gross sales are $400 (20x$20)
Less eBay fees of $30 (20x$1.50)
Nothing for packing materials etc.
Net profit is $370, divided by 18.2 = $20/hour
I imagine there are plenty of "professional" eBay sellers. Pick a niche
and examine the listings, and you'll see the same sellers with links
to their existing niche web site or estate-sale-buyer or surplus-buyer
site. Presumably, they've already found a way and a wage to make
their living doing this, and eBay just gives them a bigger market.
One of the secrets to the good life is realizing that time is the most
precious commodity. From a time versus dollars standpoint, going to
a ham radio rally probably doesn't make much sense. It might give
great personal satisfaction, of course. Any wealth I've accumulated
doesn't prevent me from enjoying a great find from a Dumpster.
Even given eBay's fees, given 2:1, 3:1, 6:1 or better margins, it
can be sufficiently interesting for the hobbyist not to mention the
professionals. The concept has infected my brain. I've tried to
restrain myself to the 5:1 or better re-sales and speculation.
Wish I had a wireless Palm with a link to eBay so I could check
the price of items while at the surplus sale...
You can't beat the variety. I look for the Yogi Bear doll I had
in the 60s, and presto, there it is for $40, in several permutations.
Why doesn't eBay realize the great value they have in the historical
database of sale prices, pictures and descriptions. They're throwing
away the content that has been created for them for free. They should
archive the picture. But then I don't think Dejanews.com is run
right, either. Sheesh.
- John
6:12 a.m.
Why doesn't eBay realize the great value they have
in the historical
database of sale prices, pictures and descriptions. They're throwing
away the content that has been created for them for free. They should
archive the picture.
Ebay does not want keep all of the auctions as a publicly accessable
database, simply because it is not their job. After a few months, they
can "wash their hands" of the deal, and with it, any disputes that may
come up afterwards (problems in the car auctions leap to mind). They don't
want the legal hassles, basically.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
10:44 a.m.
William Donzelli <aw288(a)osfn.org> wrote:
Hi
I still think it would be to Ebays advantage to keep such
things as at least item, purchase price, seller and buyer.
I often look to use what resources they have. Finding buyers
of rare old equipment is desirable. Keeping a list
of where and who is one of the ways that we can realisticly
keep many of these old machines form ending up in the recyclers
masher. List of this type can also help to distribute information
that is common interest to that group.
The way it would help Ebay is that, it is like advertising. By
having this resource, they could also make links to current
auctions that are related. This would draw people, by both
making it a regular place in the book marks and direct advertising.
Dwight
Why
doesn't eBay realize the great value they have in the historical
database of sale prices, pictures and descriptions. They're throwing
away the content that has been created for them for free. They should
archive the picture.
Ebay does not want keep all of the auctions as a publicly accessable
database, simply because it is not their job. After a few months, they
can "wash their hands" of the deal, and with it, any disputes that may
come up afterwards (problems in the car auctions leap to mind). They don't
want the legal hassles, basically. 
17 Jun
17 Jun
3:46 p.m.
Dwight Elvey wrote:
I still think it would be to Ebays advantage to keep such
things as at least item, purchase price, seller and buyer.
I often look to use what resources they have. Finding buyers
of rare old equipment is desirable. Keeping a list
While ebay doesn't keep stuff very long (2 weeks after the auction IIRC),
they do better than the other places who don't seem to have a clue how
useful past auctions are and don't offer that info at all!
16 Jun
16 Jun
10:52 a.m.
At 11:12 AM 6/16/00 -0400, William Donzelli wrote:
Ebay does not want keep all of the auctions as a
publicly accessable
database, simply because it is not their job. After a few months, they
can "wash their hands" of the deal, and with it, any disputes that may
come up afterwards (problems in the car auctions leap to mind). They don't
want the legal hassles, basically.
In my mind, the best web site business plans involve the visitors
creating the content themselves. They're missing a big, big opportunity.
Each description can contain potentially valuable nuggets of info.
It's a crime to toss them in the bit bucket.
- John
10:57 a.m.
On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, John Foust wrote:
At 11:12 AM 6/16/00 -0400, William Donzelli wrote:
Yeah, how else are we going to know whether or not a certain computer is
RARE? I always turn to eBay vintage computer hardware listings when I
need to find out such information!
Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...
Coming soon: VCF 4.0!
VCF East: Planning in Progress
See http://www.vintage.org for details!
Ebay does not want keep all of the auctions as a
publicly accessable
database, simply because it is not their job. After a few months, they
can "wash their hands" of the deal, and with it, any disputes that may
come up afterwards (problems in the car auctions leap to mind). They don't
want the legal hassles, basically.
In my mind, the best web site business plans involve the visitors
creating the content themselves. They're missing a big, big opportunity.
Each description can contain potentially valuable nuggets of info.
It's a crime to toss them in the bit bucket. 
11:35 a.m.
New subject: Ebay historical data. RE: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay
> Why doesn't eBay realize the great value they
have in the historical
> database of sale prices, pictures and descriptions. They're throwing
> away the content that has been created for them for free. They should
> archive the picture.
Two points, one Ebay _does_ realize the value of their historical data. Try
spidering their completed listings a couple of times and their lawyers will
come talk to you.
The pictures aren't on ebay, they are on the seller's site or honesty.com
or wherever they hosted them.
Ebay does not want keep all of the auctions as a
publicly accessable
database, simply because it is not their job. After a few months, they
can "wash their hands" of the deal, and with it, any disputes that may
come up afterwards (problems in the car auctions leap to mind). They don't
want the legal hassles, basically.
I don't believe this is true. I believe Ebay doesn't want to keep its
auctions accessible because it wants to sell that information for money to
people like appraisers for big BUCK$. I've been creating an automated
process in my spare time to harvest the information I'm interested in
(average selling price of classic computer systems) but not enough time etc.
What they _should_ do, and don't, is keep the title from the auction for
which a feedback link is posted so that you can tell if this deadbeat
bidder failed to buy a Monet or a speculum, that might help you decide if
you're willing to let them bid on your stuff.
--Chuck
P.S. Side note, the price of Classic Computers on Ebay is dropping. When I
have enough data I should be able to show it quite clearly.
11:55 a.m.
New subject: Ebay historical data. RE: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay
On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Chuck McManis wrote:
eBay doesn't keep historical data because they don't want the storage
requirements or performance hit the data would give them. They have
*lots* of trouble keeping search performance acceptible given the volume
of data they need to index today. Multiplying that problem by an order of
magnitude or two isn't a problem they want right now. If their growth
stays flat, they may get around to addressing this -- I'm sure they've
considered it, but it's not core functionality.
Cheers,
Doug
Ebay does not
want keep all of the auctions as a publicly accessable
database, simply because it is not their job. After a few months, they
can "wash their hands" of the deal, and with it, any disputes that may
come up afterwards (problems in the car auctions leap to mind). They don't
want the legal hassles, basically.
I don't believe this is true. I believe Ebay doesn't want to keep its
auctions accessible because it wants to sell that information for money to
people like appraisers for big BUCK$. I've been creating an automated
process in my spare time to harvest the information I'm interested in
(average selling price of classic computer systems) but not enough time etc.
6:03 p.m.
New subject: Ebay historical data. RE: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay
At 01:35 PM 6/16/00 -0700, Chuck McManis wrote:
Two points, one Ebay _does_ realize the value of their
historical data. Try spidering their completed listings a couple of times and their
lawyers will come talk to you.
So you think they're archiving it all, and purposefully only letting
people search the last few weeks?
The pictures aren't on ebay, they are on the
seller's site or honesty.com or wherever they hosted them.
I didn't re-read their fine print, but I can imagine that if you're
giving them permission to post your HTML description including the URL of
the pictures, that they'd have the right to grab a copy. As I'm sure
you've seen, the remotely hosted images often disappear even before the
eBay completed auction.
At 11:17 AM 6/16/00 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote:
Damn. What a bunch of frustrated, bickering goobers we
all are here.
Dudes, smoke a bowl, drink some wine, eat some cheese and CHILL! Put your
egos back in the garage with your classic computers.
Because I haven't mentioned sex yet, Sellam might not have read this far.
Goobers? Nguba? And all this time I thought the real reason for
the VCF was the groupies. Go ahead, buy the eBay Cap'n Crunch whistle,
invite him to the show, but beware the "work out" invitations.
- John
1:07 p.m.
John Foust writes:
Why doesn't eBay realize the great value they have
in the historical
database of sale prices, pictures and descriptions. They're throwing
away the content that has been created for them for free. They should
archive the picture.
William Donzelli replies:
Ebay does not want keep all of the auctions as a
publicly accessable
database, simply because it is not their job. After a few months, they
can "wash their hands" of the deal, and with it, any disputes that may
come up afterwards (problems in the car auctions leap to mind). They don't
want the legal hassles, basically.
They can *sell* access to the archives. As far as problems that come up
after auctions complete, they have potential problems whether they keep
the data or not.
6:14 a.m.
John Foust wrote:
Even given eBay's fees, given 2:1, 3:1, 6:1 or better margins, it
can be sufficiently interesting for the hobbyist not to mention the
professionals. The concept has infected my brain. I've tried to
restrain myself to the 5:1 or better re-sales and speculation.
Wish I had a wireless Palm with a link to eBay so I could check
the price of items while at the surplus sale...
10:1 or greater is what I look for to encourage me to sell stuff that I have
collected (and have duplicates of) while .5:1 or better is what I look for
to just try and get rid of stuff. The 10:1 allows me to get more "stuff" :).
15 Jun
15 Jun
3:59 p.m.
At 10:35 15-06-2000 -0400, you wrote:
<snip>
Now, do you understand?
I do agree with you that one can occasionally find bargain on e-bay
and other auction sites, but it's still npot the same as finding
things on Usenet or hamfests and haggling over the price.
<snip again>
I would add to this another pet dislike I have for E-bilk (much better
name, BTW). To my eyes, they are in large part (sheer unmitigated greed
makes up the other part) responsible for the decline in quality and
quantity of equipment that used to show up at hamfests and other
electronic-oriented swap meets.
--
R. D. Davis
rdd(a)perqlogic.com
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd
410-744-4900
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies
http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com
Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77
"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our
own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."
4:51 p.m.
On Thu, 15 Jun 2000, Bruce Lane wrote:
I would add to this another pet dislike I have for
E-bilk (much better
name, BTW). To my eyes, they are in large part (sheer unmitigated greed
makes up the other part) responsible for the decline in quality and
quantity of equipment that used to show up at hamfests and other
electronic-oriented swap meets.
You've noticed this decline as well? :-( Interesting hackish things
seem to be getting more and more difficult to find a hamfests. The
last one I went to had very little, and most I've been to, I've seen
people going around buying large quantities of things,
indiscriminantly, just to snap them up, apparently to resell on e-bilk
or squirrel away in storage... or even to sell them at 200-percent and
much higher, mark-ups at the same hamfest. Disgusting.
--
R. D. Davis
rdd(a)perqlogic.com
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd
410-744-4900
16 Jun
16 Jun
10:07 a.m.
On 15-Jun-00, you wrote:
I've noticed that as well, including old computers as well. What I have
hard and seen is that most of it is being just thrown into the landfills
because people at large think there is NO value to the stuff.
On the other hand, used PC's are being scalped at higher prices than new.
Maybe we've learned this from the oil companies?
Regards
--
Gary Hildebrand
Box 6184
St. Joseph, MO 64506-0184
816-662-2612
or
ghldbrd(a)ccp.com
On Thu, 15 Jun 2000, Bruce Lane wrote:
> I would add to this another pet dislike I have for E-bilk (much
better
name, BTW). To
my eyes, they are in large part (sheer unmitigated greed
makes up the other part) responsible for the decline in quality and
quantity of equipment that used to show up at hamfests and other
electronic-oriented swap meets.
You've noticed this decline as well? :-( Interesting hackish things
seem to be getting more and more difficult to find a hamfests. The
last one I went to had very little, and most I've been to, I've seen
people going around buying large quantities of things,
indiscriminantly, just to snap them up, apparently to resell on e-bilk
or squirrel away in storage... or even to sell them at 200-percent and
much higher, mark-ups at the same hamfest. Disgusting.
6:28 a.m.
I've noticed that as well, including old computers
as well. What I have
hard and seen is that most of it is being just thrown into the landfills
because people at large think there is NO value to the stuff.
I don't think its going into landfills, but is getting recycled. Many
more electronics/high-tech companies these days have contracts with
recyclers, so less goes home with the employees.
I too have noticed a drop in the number of interesting computer things at
the fests, but I am chalking that up to the idea that the classic minis
and micros are past their "take to the hamfest" portion of their
lifecycle, and now in the :few survivors still in garages" portion. We seem
now to have XTs and ATs taking their spot at the fests. In time they will
get scarce, replaced by 386s, 486s, G3s, SPARCstations*, then Pentiums,
Ultras, etc..
*The influx of super cheap workstations at the fests are quite a welcome
sight, however.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
7:13 a.m.
On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote:
I think the concept we are dealing with here is the supply of something
simply running out. There were only so many vintage computers ever sold.
They don't grow them anymore.
Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...
Coming soon: VCF 4.0!
VCF East: Planning in Progress
See http://www.vintage.org for details!
I've
noticed that as well, including old computers as well. What I have
hard and seen is that most of it is being just thrown into the landfills
because people at large think there is NO value to the stuff.
I don't think its going into landfills, but is getting recycled. Many
more electronics/high-tech companies these days have contracts with
recyclers, so less goes home with the employees.
I too have noticed a drop in the number of interesting computer things at
the fests, but I am chalking that up to the idea that the classic minis
and micros are past their "take to the hamfest" portion of their
lifecycle, and now in the :few survivors still in garages" portion. We seem
now to have XTs and ATs taking their spot at the fests. In time they will
get scarce, replaced by 386s, 486s, G3s, SPARCstations*, then Pentiums,
Ultras, etc.. 
9:24 a.m.
On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote:
I think the concept we are dealing with here is the supply of something
simply running out. There were only so many vintage computers ever sold.
Not to mention, only so many people who would know what to *do* with
an old Commodore, VAX, TI 99, etc. As far as the rest of the world is
concerned, it's "trash"....
They don't grow them anymore.
Well, not nearly as much as they used to, but one can always hold out
hope. Know of any new people entering this hobby? Not just squirrelling
away stuff, or churning it on the auction sites, but actually buying old
computers, plugging them in, and actually working/playing with them?
10:04 a.m.
On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote:
Not to mention, only so many people who would know
what to *do* with
an old Commodore, VAX, TI 99, etc. As far as the rest of the world is
concerned, it's "trash"....
Not to mention that most people never knew anything at all about
computers until they bought a PeeCee running Luzewin a couple of years
ago and are the same ones that not too long ago gave you a strange
look if you said the word "Internet;" they just have no concept of what
using any other computer is like.
Well, not nearly as much as they used to, but one can
always hold out
hope. Know of any new people entering this hobby? Not just squirrelling
away stuff, or churning it on the auction sites, but actually buying old
computers, plugging them in, and actually working/playing with them?
It seems so strange to think of people doing anything else with older
computer equipment (or even old radios or stereos, for that matter)
that they find, buy, are given, etc. other than finding some use for
it, playing with it, etc. When I talk of my "collection," I don't
mean a collection of things squirreled away never to be used, or
things that I'm accumulating for the purpose future gains, but a group
if items that I find useful and fun to play with. Alas, many people this
equipment to horde, collect to sell at a quick profit, etc.
Today, I was down in Beltsville at an antique radio flea market - not
sure of the event's proper name; it was like a hamfest, but only
vintage radio equipment. People were selling 1970's transistor radios
for US$30, old wooden tube sets that were scratched up, rusty, had
what looked like mouse eaten wiring, had capacitors leaking white
chemicals, etc. - one set like this was being sold for about US$50!
A Dynaco stereo-70 amp and tuner were going for nearly US$400.
One thing the above made me wonder: how many of these old tube sets
will end up forever unused and unrestored, and treated - like some
other antiques - as being less valuable if restored (like cleaned-up
coins and some wood furniture), just because restoring them might
lower their financial value as antiques?
--
R. D. Davis
rdd(a)perqlogic.com
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd
410-744-4900
12:22 p.m.
On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)
wrote:
People "get on board" at different eras with everything, computers, TV,
music, etc. I can't tell you how many times people complain "It was better
in the old days". Not always so.
Not to mention, only so many people who would
know what to *do* with
an old Commodore, VAX, TI 99, etc. As far as the rest of the world is
concerned, it's "trash"....
Not to mention that most people never knew anything at all about
computers until they bought a PeeCee running Luzewin a couple of years
ago and are the same ones that not too long ago gave you a strange
look if you said the word "Internet;" they just have no concept of what
using any other computer is like. It seems so strange to think of people doing anything
else with older
computer equipment (or even old radios or stereos, for that matter)
that they find, buy, are given, etc. other than finding some use for
it, playing with it, etc. When I talk of my "collection," I don't
mean a collection of things squirreled away never to be used, or
things that I'm accumulating for the purpose future gains, but a group
if items that I find useful and fun to play with. Alas, many people this
equipment to horde, collect to sell at a quick profit, etc.
We've always had the speculation, "this will make me rich someday" crowd
with all sorts of collectables, from beanie babies to baseball cards.
It'll always be with us.
Today, I was down in Beltsville at an antique radio flea market - not
sure of the event's proper name; it was like a hamfest, but only
vintage radio equipment. People were selling 1970's transistor radios
for US$30, old wooden tube sets that were scratched up, rusty, had
what looked like mouse eaten wiring, had capacitors leaking white
chemicals, etc. - one set like this was being sold for about US$50!
A Dynaco stereo-70 amp and tuner were going for nearly US$400.
One thing the above made me wonder: how many of these old tube sets
will end up forever unused and unrestored, and treated - like some
other antiques - as being less valuable if restored (like cleaned-up
coins and some wood furniture), just because restoring them might
lower their financial value as antiques?
In my (limited) experience, most radio collectors are interested in at
least cleaning up the cabinets (especially wooden ones), and many are
hoping to eventually get the set in playing condition, preferably with
parts as close as possible to the original.
12:50 p.m.
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17 Jun
17 Jun
2:36 a.m.
Hello Charles
On 16-Jun-00, you wrote:
Regards
--
Gary Hildebrand
ghldbrd(a)ccp.com
On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote:
I've heard that the C=64 is still very popular with the Geritol set (senior
citizens). Many just don't want to spend the kind of bucks needed for a
Winblows box.
Don't know if the same is true for the TI99/4 . . . I remember years back
there was a good sized following considering it was one of the first
orphaned computers. I've even got one of those in my closet, waiting for a
cassette cable, or a new home for someone who really wants one.
As far as junk, they thought that of the Edsel, Desoto, Studebaker and
Packard, when they were not that old. Given time, everything is worth more
thn it is now. Gasoline seems to be a good example . . . .
I think the concept we are dealing with here is the supply of something
simply running out. There were only so many vintage computers ever sold.
Not to mention, only so many people who would know what to *do* with
an old Commodore, VAX, TI 99, etc. As far as the rest of the world is
concerned, it's "trash"....
They don't grow them anymore.
Well, not nearly as much as they used to, but one can always hold out
hope. Know of any new people entering this hobby? Not just squirrelling
away stuff, or churning it on the auction sites, but actually buying old
computers, plugging them in, and actually working/playing with them?
6:08 a.m.
On Sat, 17 Jun 2000, Gary Hildebrand wrote:
I've heard that the C=64 is still very popular with the Geritol set (senior
citizens). Many just don't want to spend the kind of bucks needed for a
Winblows box.
Don't know if the same is true for the TI99/4
I was in a small TI-club around 1992-1995. I was usually the
youngest person there (about 25, while everyone else was in their
50's and 60's). There were younger folks into the TI back then, but
it seemed like all of them were from Europe (Germany and Holland
mostly)
. . . I remember years back
there was a good sized following considering it was one of the first
orphaned computers.
Actually there was a lot of third-party support for it, and there
was even a "clone" of sorts (the Myarc Geneve, which used an improved
video chip). I think the TI scene got real quiet after the last Fest West
in 99, Micropendium (the last major TI magazine) stopped publishing, etc.,
although users and support for the machines do exist.
I've even got one of those in my closet, waiting
for a
cassette cable, or a new home for someone who really wants one.
The consoles were actually pretty common (TI was selling them for as
low as $50 during the 1983 shakeout). Other parts (disk drives, expansion
boxes, etc.) I don't really see as much anymore.
As far as junk, they thought that of the Edsel,
Desoto, Studebaker and
Packard, when they were not that old. Given time, everything is worth more
thn it is now. Gasoline seems to be a good example . . . .
Hmm...
9:36 a.m.
On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:08:07AM -0500, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote:
[re TI99/4A]
Actually there was a lot of third-party support for it,
and there
was even a "clone" of sorts (the Myarc Geneve, which used an improved
video chip).
Oh god, people remember THAT thing ... it was designed by another RPI guy who
was one of my roommates at the time, he was doing a co-op at Myarc while a
junior (?) at RPI. He also plagiarized a paint program for the Geneve, from
another roommate who wrote it for fun, which became Myart (originally called
"Easel" by its true author, David Klotzkin). Myarc never did finish making
the royalty payments to Dave after the shit hit the fan on that one (boy was
he pissed when he realized what had happened). The designer (whom I'd rather
not name) had previously done a ROM update for a Myarc floppy controller,
evidently whatever he was adding made the code a bit too big for the ROM so
he had to do lots of bumming to squeeze it in, a process which he narrated
practically byte-by-byte to the rest of us -- anything for attention! I really
got the impression that he chose the TI99, not because it's a great machine
(it sure isn't!), but because there weren't too many talented hackers producing
anything for it and he liked the chance to be a big fish in a little pond.
I went along to a TI user's group meeting near Boston with him in the mid 80s
and I couldn't believe the ovation he got when they announced he was there,
he absolutely reveled in it.
Anyway obviously the guy had really serious personality/ethics/ego problems,
but he was a sharp kid. The Geneve (well, prototypes anyway, that's all I
ever saw) used a PC/XT keyboard instead of the nasty squished TI thing, and
could run SCSI disks, and IIRC it had some sort of memory mapper too (maybe
just an 'LS612, who knows), and through all of this it was TI99 compatible,
more or less at least. Not bad for an undergrad... A pretty good chunk of
his rent/food were paid for by the $10 registration fees for his "Fast Term"
terminal program which was on Compuserve, evidently it was pretty popular
(I gather it was unusual in being able to go above 1200 baud). We got pretty
tired of the 6-tone sequence it would squeak out on every ^G though, he had
hacked that in as a joke but evidently it ended up being permanent.
IIRC the machine's startup screen logo was a nice picture of a swan, drawn
by Mi Kyung Kim, the designer's girlfriend. (She was later shot by Colin
Ferguson on the LIRR.) Somewhere buried in the ROM was a joke version of the
same picture (cartoon style knockout shot with crossed eyes, stars orbiting
around its head etc.), that is unless Myarc found out and removed it.
Evidently at some point, Myarc wasn't happy about the rate of progress so
they (IIRC "they" means Lou Philips and/or his lawyer) showed up at our
apartment in person to chew him out, but he bravely hid out in the bathroom.
We all thought that was the funniest damn thing! Always a soap opera...
John Wilson
D Bit
9:59 a.m.
On Sat, 17 Jun 2000, John Wilson wrote:
[...] Myarc Geneve
more or less at least. Not bad for an undergrad... A pretty good chunk of
his rent/food were paid for by the $10 registration fees for his "Fast Term"
terminal program which was on Compuserve, evidently it was pretty popular
(I gather it was unusual in being able to go above 1200 baud). We got pretty
tired of the 6-tone sequence it would squeak out on every ^G though, he had
hacked that in as a joke but evidently it ended up being permanent.
Wasn't that sequence taken from one of the demo programs in the
Editor/Assembler manual?
IIRC the machine's startup screen logo was a nice picture of a swan, drawn
by Mi Kyung Kim, the designer's girlfriend. (She was later shot by Colin
Ferguson on the LIRR.)
I heard about that. Wasn't that about the time that Jim "Tigercub"
Peterson passed on? Not a particularly happy issue of Micropendium, that
one...
1:14 p.m.
On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 01:59:43PM -0500, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote:
[6-tone beep in TI99 FastTerm]
Wasn't that sequence taken from one of the demo
programs in the
Editor/Assembler manual?
Well that would figure! That ^G is the only time I can remember his computer
making sound so he may not have been a wiz at programming the sound port
(I forget, is it that weird GI chip that MicroMint used to use too?), that
would explain referring to the example but it's not reason to snip it out
entirely...
I heard about that. Wasn't that about the time that
Jim "Tigercub"
Peterson passed on? Not a particularly happy issue of Micropendium, that
one...
Beats me, the name sounds very slightly familiar but I was never a TI99 guy.
I think the Colin Ferguson thing was roughly the same time as OJ's little
adventure, the trials were more or less concurrent (but Ferguson's was a lot
more fun to watch!!!). I wonder what ever happened to Ferguson's appeal,
IIRC he got 5 life sentences so I naturally figured he was looking to get
it cut down to just 3 life sentences. :-) That would be about in character.
John Wilson
D Bit
16 Jun
16 Jun
9:44 a.m.
I think the concept we are dealing with here is the
supply of something
simply running out. There were only so many vintage computers ever sold.
They don't grow them anymore.
More like oil, plenty of its down there, you just need to drill deeper. Do
you think the stockpile of old DEC stuff John found this year is the ONLY
one? I hope not.
What I am seeing is that different categories of places let go stuff at
different times. Some have a fixed cycle just a few years long, ie many ISP
lease the hardware for only a year or two then it hits the liquidation
market. Other places hoard everything ever purchased until the company
folds or sells etc. I am actually looking forward to some of the Apple II
era machines I know are still hiding in industrial settings.
If you want to see a Grammophone go to the Cal Poly Pomona hamfest this
Saturday, there are few out there most times. <in the antique swapmeet next
door anyway>.
Morbid perhaps, but in a few years I bet a LOT of stuff worthwhile starts
showing up in storage auctions.
9:22 a.m.
On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Mike Ford wrote:
Oh, I agree with you wholeheartedly, and it is what I've been trying to
impress upon whiners for a while now.
It's just that one can't expect machines from the 70s and 80s to still
always be around in the quanitites they used to be accustomed to when we
were still talking only 10-20 years ago. We've made it to the year 2000.
Time has moved on and left your memory behind.
I think the
concept we are dealing with here is the supply of something
simply running out. There were only so many vintage computers ever sold.
They don't grow them anymore.
More like oil, plenty of its down there, you just need to drill deeper. Do
you think the stockpile of old DEC stuff John found this year is the ONLY
one? I hope not. folds or sells etc. I am actually looking forward to
some of the Apple II
era machines I know are still hiding in industrial settings.
I guarantee you there are still plenty of PDP-8s and other goodie machines
out there. Just far fewer of them than 10 years ago.
Morbid perhaps, but in a few years I bet a LOT of
stuff worthwhile starts
showing up in storage auctions.
Who knows, mine might be one of them :)
Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...
Coming soon: VCF 4.0!
VCF East: Planning in Progress
See http://www.vintage.org for details!
4:44 p.m.
More like oil, plenty of its down there, you just need
to drill deeper. Do
you think the stockpile of old DEC stuff John found this year is the ONLY
one? I hope not.
Of course not. That DEC pile was huge, but other piles do turn up (wasn't
there one in Delaware about three years ago?). Smaller, yet sizable
caches pop up as well. RCS/RI has certainly done well - one early haul
involved three PDP-12s (one a super-12), two LINC-8s, a Packard Bell 250,
a Univac card punch, and a number of PDP-8 and -11 systems. All
from one place. More recently, RCS and RICM came across
a cache of IBM
stuff - mostly semi-interesting hardware, but also something like
800
pounds of documentation - service manuals and the like - for non-PC
systems dating all the way back to 1960.
Look, and you shall find them. I am always running into piles of old
surplus radio and radar gear (my main interest), one of which makes the
DEC pile look tiny. Radar gear or old computers - the piles look the same
from a distance.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
5:12 p.m.
We found one source that has yielded 3 truckloads of Wang equipment and
documentation and software so far. There is actually one working VS-65
system still left behind.
On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote:
M. K. Peirce
Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc.
215 Shady Lea Road,
North Kingstown, RI 02852
"Casta est qui nemo rogavit."
- Ovid
More like oil,
plenty of its down there, you just need to drill deeper. Do
you think the stockpile of old DEC stuff John found this year is the ONLY
one? I hope not.
Of course not. That DEC pile was huge, but other piles do turn up (wasn't
there one in Delaware about three years ago?). Smaller, yet sizable
caches pop up as well. RCS/RI has certainly done well - one early haul
involved three PDP-12s (one a super-12), two LINC-8s, a Packard Bell 250,
a Univac card punch, and a number of PDP-8 and -11 systems. All
from one place. More recently, RCS and RICM came across a cache of IBM
stuff - mostly semi-interesting hardware, but also something like 800
pounds of documentation - service manuals and the like - for non-PC
systems dating all the way back to 1960.
Look, and you shall find them. I am always running into piles of old
surplus radio and radar gear (my main interest), one of which makes the
DEC pile look tiny. Radar gear or old computers - the piles look the same
from a distance.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
8:05 p.m.
What's a super-12?
PDP-12 #10 is the super-12 (non-official term) that includes the floating
point option and an RK05. Interestingly, the RK05 is run from a standard
RK8E embedded in a chassis behind the -12s covers. There is a special
interface to get the PDP-12 (I forget if it is negibus or posibus) to
talk to the "processor-less PDP-8/e" within.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
18 Jun
18 Jun
3:14 a.m.
On Sun, 18 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote:
That would be a DW8E.
--
Aaron Nabil
What's a
super-12?
PDP-12 #10 is the super-12 (non-official term) that includes the floating
point option and an RK05. Interestingly, the RK05 is run from a standard
RK8E embedded in a chassis behind the -12s covers. There is a special
interface to get the PDP-12 (I forget if it is negibus or posibus) to
talk to the "processor-less PDP-8/e" within.
15 Jun
15 Jun
8:48 p.m.
I would add to this another pet dislike I have for
E-bilk (much better
name, BTW). To my eyes, they are in large part (sheer unmitigated greed
makes up the other part) responsible for the decline in quality and
quantity of equipment that used to show up at hamfests and other
electronic-oriented swap meets.
I completely disagree, the decline, if it is "real" is from the wholesale
dumping of containers full of old computers to Asia. I talk to a lot of the
sellers at hamfests, and while a large number of them have access, VERY few
have actually ever sold anything over the net, let alone via auction. What
is happening is that the container packers are hitting up the hamfest
sellers sources with better offers to haul away everything.
The other factor, and this is a real sideways one, is that a pickup truck
full of junk isn't selling like it used to at the hamfests. Too many of the
guys are packing up 90% of what they brought and taking it back home.
Before just about anything would sell, and now the buyers are much more
saavy, some items sell quickly, others are never going to move. Buyers
have a better idea of value than the sellers, and some values are DOWN due
to internet sales. Many of the buyers are just like I am too, buying at
hamfests to sell on the net, and that makes us much more cautious after
awhile at how much we spend, because the net is MUCH more unforgiving about
what won't sell.
Two factors, new guys buying up stuff to pack in containers, and old dogs
loosing interest in fighting for the bones to sell. Most of the blame I
would put on the big scrappers though, as that is where 90% of the goods
are going.
8806
days inactive
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