Wasn?t there a question as to whether LCM + L was ever going to open again because Paul Allen?s estate?s executors are closing down things that don?t interest them (permanently?), and COVID-19 provided an excuse to completely lay off staff? The website still says ?closed ... for now?. Another Allen non-profit institution, the Museum of Pop Culture (formerly the Experience Music Project, then EMP, then Experience Music Project and Science Fiction Museum and Hall of Fame (?EMPSFM? for short-ish), then EMP Museum) is now open Fridays through Mondays. On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 8:39 AM Zane Healy via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

Chris Zach wrote: It may have been removed when we worked on getting ITS booted.

On Mon, 24 May 2021, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: You think they'll give it back? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Five bucks says it all goes to a recycler because it's "easier" for his lazy f*cking sister to do it that way. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

On Mon, 24 May 2021, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: His money or interest isn't the problem. It's the fact that he's dead and not able to protect his projects from his sister thats the problem. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

I've worked with a museum and a rare computer -- the solution used in that case was to provide the machine to the museum under a long-term loan arrangement. That way, if the museum were to close or decide it doesn't want the machine any longer, it can't just scrap it because it isn't the museum's property to dispose of. Given some of what I've read from others, that's an arrangement that seems worth using more often. paul

I am sure that Vulcan has gotten enough grief that they want to spin them off into foundations-like entities like what happened with EMP. There will lose a lot of good will otherwise, which will translate into what they care about, lost business. alan On 5/24/21 1:31 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:

I?m not a lawyer (thank goodness!), but you have to know what they plan to do and when. If they don?t ?happen to see? your associated paperwork and intend to scrap it, the only notice may be via some ?public? announcement in an obscure local periodical, as is customary for foreclosure sales. If no one sees it, it didn?t happen. I would hope locals formerly associated with the museum will see something like that, but you just never know. Paul Allen left a lot of stuff for the executors of the estate to deal with, and the going businesses (mostly real estate, sports teams, etc.) are no doubt the highest priorities, as they could continue generating revenue to keep some, if not all, lower priorities going. The medical institutes (plural) are probably the next highest priorities after the businesses, to ensure continuity of operations, and because they were very important to his survival, as long as it lasted. The arts efforts haven?t seen anything from him since 2014, and they?re very nervous. The LCM+L may survive into perpetuity if it gets spun out into its own LLC, as happened with the Museum of Pop Culture (n?e Experience Music Project, etc.) a number of years ago. I would guess that the LCM+L had a place deep in his heart based on strong memories of his geekiness going back to his boyhood. However, if he hadn?t already protected it, it?s up to the executors of the estate as to what will ultimately happen. At least the building hasn?t been sold off and the utilities and security are apparently being maintained, along with the existence of the website. Releasing the staff was likely the fastest way to reduce cash outflow the most until its potential future could be analyzed. There are a ton of qualified people who could at least get it reopened and operating again, if not former employees with the most expertise on its history and inner workings. Consultants on an as-needed basis, and volunteers could fill in the holes, if needed, over time. One thing that?s required long-term is transitioning to a younger generation of enthusiasts, as those of us with the required expertise are not getting any younger, faster with every passing day. We will also suffer Paul?s untimely fate sooner than anyone would like, even if it?s years into the future, but it?s gonna happen eventually. Just my buck-two-eightie?s worth (two cents, adjusted for inflation since bootup!). On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 1:38 PM Daniel Seagraves via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

On May 24, 2021, at 1:07 PM, geneb via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: Which just makes me sick to the stomach, considering what I sent up there. I really hope you?re wrong. What I really regret is a LARGE box of GCOS-8 documentation. :-( They have a lot of unobtainable software and documentation. Zane

You didn't scan the documents prior to giving them to the museum? I always do that before donating documents to a museum, since it is fairly sure that they are going to probably stay there for as long as the museum exists... with the only problem that they do not get accessible to the public anymore before somebody like Al Kossow or other curators or? museum members have the time to help out and make them accessible when somebody asks for access. Cheers, Pierre

Penske and others rent tractor-trailers to those with a CDL, so ... 8^O Maybe the real estate arm of Allen?s empire has a deal on a warehouse that Amazon hasn?t already turned into office space? On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 4:03 PM Mark Huffstutter via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

I have learned not to trust any computer museum to properly look after any artefacts in the long run. I have seen the following: - they lose funding and shut down; - the building they had for free is sold or demolished and the collection no longer has a home; - museum management changes and they decide to no longer display certain objects; - they replace real objects with fancy multimedia presentations; - they suck in anything and everything and send unwanted items or duplicates to the dumpster rather than trying to find a new home for stuff they don't want or need; Don't trust that museums will abide by your wishes when you donate an item. They almost never will no matter how secure you think your agreement with them is. I believe that enthusiastic and competent individuals will look after valuable items much better than most museums can. Best regards Tom Hunter

On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 2:35 PM Tom Hunter via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: I made similar comments about museums [1] here about 30 years ago and was flamed spectacularly for it. Ho-hum... [1] And also about the cluelessness of their restorations and who they get to do said restorations. It is a very different job to keep a machine running when it is still supported by the manufacturer and where official spare FRUs are available as against restoring a machine that nobody has seen running for 10 years and for which if there are any official spares they are in unknown condition. I know of at least one exception to some of the above in the UK, but it's a vintage rado museum, not a computer museum. In particular their demostration are the real things, not mockups or multi-media presentations (I am not sure there's even a computer on the site!). You might end up looking at a live-chassis television set with a metal-cone CRT running with the cabinet off. Meaning the metal chassis is connected directly to the mains, and the metal cone of the CRT is at about 15kV wrt earth. You know not to touch it,right... Also if they are given a duplicate item, or something that doesn't really fit into the museum collection, they sell tt (in the former case they keep the 'better' one for the museum and sell the other) to an enthusiast at IMHO a good price. But has been said before, MAKE A WILL A proper legal document explaining what you want to happen to your collection if you pass away. In the UK, not abiding by the terms of somebody's will is quite a serious offence. Another thing I was flamed for 30 years ago was saying that just because somebody is rich, it doesn't mean they will take more care of a classic computer than the rest of us. Looks like I might be right there too. In particular, for most us our computer collection is the second most valuable thing we own (after the house). Which means it is likely to be 'taken seriously' if mentioned in a will or whatever. If the computer collections is 'lost in the noise' as it might be for a rich person with antiques, business interests, etc then it is much more likely not to be preserved. -tony

There is that, however I will say that Bob's basement has been like a little time machine for the Perq lovers: 17 years ago that stuff was common and everyone got rid of it. Now it's back and being preserved. Still, I'm not donating either of the Perq1's, the 2 or the 2+ to a museum any time soon. It's a problem. Compounded by the fact that we need to get a new young (like 20's age) generation interested in this stuff. Otherwise it will be like pocket watches which fell out of fashion, were all trashed, and only now are the few survivors considered "heirlooms". C

Better than digging it out of a dumpster. Yep, an oil burner basement is not the best place to put things, but then again we don't get to choose when we drop dead. (sigh). I appreciate the work you're doing with others to get the data read: I've been reading out the DEC floppies and most of them seem to be readable at this point into disk images (up on www.crystel.com) On a side note, the Megaframe computer (Convergent systems) was picked up last week along with one of the two AT&T 7300's. I've decided to hang on to the other as a memory of Bob kind of thing. CZ

On 5/25/21 8:58 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: And as someone who has had CHM paying my bills for 15 years and letting me put out what I have on bitsavers, I do as well. You aren't going to have people working full time on old computer preservation with proper preservation facilities that will outlive their founders without funding behind it. LOTS of funding. That was the reason the original Computer Museum failed. No endowment. It was also why CHAC failed and its collection ended up at History San Jose, with most of it being ecycled when they got it. CHAC's collection was especially sad since before it went to HSJ it sat on the ground in storage containers and was a mushroom farm.

While I have also observed this in the case of a few (former) museums in Europe, I think that there is no perfect solution to either individuals or museums unless items are considered national heritage and "enjoying" a different state of protection than what is typifally seen in computer museums (In France, a very early Bull system has that particular protection). No matter the individuals or museums, if circumstances change in ways that were unforseen (individual dies and heritage is not taken care of as panned, or museum shuts down and collection needs to get "disposed of" ASAP), then things will usually not end well for the majority of a collection - again: no matter if it is a museum or from private hands. Cheers, Pierre

This is a problem that has been going on for a long time: Think of the Egyptian Pharaohs: They had amazing stuff, it was buried with them in massive pyramids, and within a few generations it was looted and probably melted down into junk lost to history. People didn't care. Took thousands of years before people actually cared about the remaining loot boxes and to be honest it's only been 100 years so it's quite possible King Tut's junk will be trashed when the next revolution comes (see ISIS). Honestly the best idea may be to bury this stuff in concrete and sink it in a deep hole somewhere. Stuff is used, then worthless, then suddenly valuable and cherished when it's almost all gone. To be honest, the best thing that can happen is if prices for this stuff skyrocket on Ebay and stay there. People take better care of things they pay a lot of $$$ for and while I know people pish posh selling it on Ebay to the highest bidder it's probably the best way to make sure it gets taken care of as opposed to a "donation" that is treated like junk because it was "free". I saw this happen with early Porsche 911's. They were nice, then worthless then you couldn't give the damn things away. Now they go for 100-300k. I'm trying to convince my dad to just trade his 68 911L for the best Porsche that Stuttgart can build so it can go to their museum and they will actually value the little thing.... I just gave away a Megaframe, a pretty priceless little thing. I hope by now they are rare enough that the guy who got it will take care of it and love it. We'll see. C

Sure, Library of Alexadria, lots of examples through history. Oddly enough people like to find this stuff, centralize it somewhere, then burn it to the ground. Go figure. And make sure all of your stuff is backed up all over the place, it's amazing how it can all wind up on one guy's FTP server that vanishes.... C On 5/31/2021 6:02 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:

That guy is? How shall I put it? An ass! He doesn?t even like people linking to his site. Years ago, I had a page linking to his RSX BBS website, and he set it up so anyone following my link would get redirected to some obscene website. I think that this was 20+ years ago. The minute I read what you wrote, I figured it was him, so I went looking. I didn?t even realize he was still around. What are you looking for? I might have a copy. Zane

On 5/24/21 9:24 AM, Jason Howe via cctalk wrote: It also includes Seattle Art Fair, which is a big deal in Seattle. It is more like Jody (Paul Allen's sister who runs Vulcan now) took advantage of the pandemic to shut Vulcan Entertainment down. However, it looks like they may be trying to re-form it as a charitable organization, Vulcan Arts & Entertainment, similar to what happened with EMP/MoPOP. They have a fancy new website (https://vulcanae.com) and are soliciting interest in memberships, donating, and volunteering. alan

That produces a page load error. paul

Interesting, a minute ago, it didn?t, now it loads. Maybe it was just rebooted? Zane