27 Sep
1999
27 Sep
'99
2:32 a.m.
Tubular locks depend on depressing each of the pins to
exactly the right
depth, and the tolerances are very tight. My best guess is that it would
take -hours- of continuous effort, assuming that a tool even exists for it,
because all the pins have to be held in precisely the right position
simultaneously.
Such a tool does exist - it's a "gun" type object, you set the levers on
the handle to the depths you want, insert, and turn. Real locksmiths
(with tables for the key codes) take about ten seconds to do this.
If you think tubulars are tricky, take a look at the
Medeco high-security
cylinders. Not only do you have vertical pins, you've also got a series of
cams along the side that are angle-sensitive. That's why you'll see the
keys cut with angled notches.
I once heard a rumor that Medeco had a standing reward of $10,000 for
anyone who could successfully pick one of their high-sec cylinders. If such
a reward does exist, I've yet to hear of it being claimed.
I don't know about picking, but at Caltech several of the undergraduates
had very efficient means for copying Medeco keys.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
27 Sep
27 Sep
4:24 a.m.
New subject: Ace
Picking a standard lock isn't that difficult,
especially with the right
tools.
I've never tried an ACE or "round" type lock, but I was always under the
impression that those were virtually impossible to pick, even for a
pro?!?
"Virtually impossible" without the right tools.
For what it's worth - when I worked in the Cooler
department here
at Coca-Cola we used a automotive dent puller (which is a kind of
slide hammer) to pull locks in vending machines. We had the hardest
type to break into because we used Abloy locks. I was always amazed
by how easy it was to break the lock. Just pick a stout machine
screw that is a little bigger than the key insert hole in the lock -
insert screw as far as possible - attach screw to dent puller and
work the slide with great vigor. It didn't take more than one try on
most locks! Might work - might not. Sure is easy to try.
A slide hammer tends to damage the lock.
Tubular locks depend on depressing each of the pins to
exactly the right
depth, and the tolerances are very tight. My best guess is that it would
take -hours- of continuous effort, assuming that a tool even exists for
it,
because all the pins have to be held in precisely the right position
simultaneously.
The correct tool consists of a cylinder (much like the key),
with pins that can be slid in and out to get the correct depth.
In addition to picking it, the same tool then has an "impression"
and can be used for making a new key.
If you think tubulars are tricky, take a look at the
Medeco
high-security cylinders. Not only do you have vertical pins, you've also
got a series of cams along the side that are angle-sensitive. That's why
you'll see the keys cut with angled notches.
I once heard a rumor that Medeco had a standing reward of $10,000
for anyone who could successfully pick one of their high-sec cylinders.
If such a reward does exist, I've yet to hear of it being claimed.
They're hard to pick, but NOT THAT HARD to pick.
I hope this is never necessary for a classic computer!
For the DEC
and DG machines that I'm familiar with and which used a real lock
cylinder, all you have to do is remove the front panel, loosen a nut,
and pull the cylinder. It does pay to look carefully before doing this,
as when you put in the new cylinder you want the cam in the correct
position to activate the microswitches.
If it is properly designed and installed, it will NOT be removable
until after the lock is unlocked. Why have a lock that can simply be
removed instead of using the key?
But, then again, wasn't this about an IBM product?
5:17 a.m.
New subject: Ace
I hope this is
never necessary for a classic computer! For the DEC
and DG machines that I'm familiar with and which used a real lock
cylinder, all you have to do is remove the front panel, loosen a nut,
and pull the cylinder. It does pay to look carefully before doing this,
as when you put in the new cylinder you want the cam in the correct
position to activate the microswitches.
If it is properly designed and installed, it will NOT be removable
until after the lock is unlocked. Why have a lock that can simply be
removed instead of using the key?
But, then again, wasn't this about an IBM product?
7:13 a.m.
New subject: Ace
If it is
properly designed and installed, it will NOT be removable
until after the lock is unlocked. Why have a lock that can simply be
removed instead of using the key?
But, then again, wasn't this about an IBM product?
DEC and DG just used the
locks to eliminate non-operator use of
the control panel, not to eliminate non-authorized access to
the hardware. IBM locked the boxes to eliminate service types as
well as non-operator use of the controls. 
7:57 a.m.
New subject: Ace
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8:51 a.m.
New subject: Ace
On Mon, 27 Sep 1999, Tony Duell wrote:
OK
Prevention of casual or even accidental tampering is a reasonable goal.
Not sure why that would require an ACE or Medeco "difficult-to-pick" lock.
Well, I could fall back on my phrase "properly designed" :-) But what I
meant included locks that HAD BEEN unlocked, bypassed, or compromised in
order to open the door or access the "secure" side, even if now relocked.
A properly installed house lock can not be removed from the outside until
it has been opened or accessed from the "secure" side. Many low security
house locks, such as most Schlage, should be unlocked for disassembly,
therefore making it harder to rekey them unless you have the key or pick
them.
Some automotive steering-wheel/ignition locks have to be in the unlocked
position for removal. Most of the old NON-steering-wheel type of ignition
locks (except certain Saabs which lock shift linkage) provide nothing more
than a reminder.
If you
don't eliminate non-authorized access to the hardware, then how
could you eliminate non-operator use of the control panel? A
non-operator could merely bypass the lock, or replace it with their own.
Or is it merely intended to be a polite request and reminder?
Basically, the
latter. Suppose you have a PDP11 in a public-access
terminal room in a school or university. Students might be able to frob a
few switches without getting caught, but they sure aren't going to be
able to pull units out of racks, dismantle frontpanels and connect wires
to the back of the keyswitch without people noticing :-)
Locking the panel prevents people crashing the machine (or worse) from the
panel. If you've got physical access to the machine and wouldn't be
stopped from dismantling it, then I can assure you that having the panel
locked is not going to hinder you much. Mind you, if you've got that sort
of access, you could remove disk packs (or tapes) and read them on your
own machine. ANY properly
designed and installed lock must be unlocked before it can be
removed.
Hmmm... I can think of plenty of locks, including most (house) door locks
where, although the door (or whatever) has to be open to dismantle the
lock, you don't have to have the key, or have the lock in the unlocked
position to do so. Try locking one of your locks with the door open, and
see if you can take it apart without unlocking it.
9:43 a.m.
New subject: Ace
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11:10 a.m.
New subject: Ace
I've never seen a Medeco (or Abloy, or any other
really hard-to-pick lock
on a machine frontpanel).
I've got one. But I don't see any reason to reinstall it on a machine.
I guess Ace locks are used because they're fairly
short from front to
back (unlike 'yale' type cylinder locks) and will fit easily into most
frontpanel systems.
Aha! You've just provided the answer! Chosen for physical dimensions,
NOT for its difficulty of picking.
In the UK, most steering locks are held on by
'sheer head bolts' that
have to be drilled out.
"Tangential tapping" with a tiny chisel usually
works just fine to back
them out.
[I used to own a Honda garage. The local dealers would tow repos, etc. in
to us for patching back together.]
The point is, it's not worth . . .,
so the lock that's fitted provides adequate
security.
9:29 a.m.
New subject: Ace
Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words:
Besides, what would be the point, if you have physical access... A locked
house door doesn't stop a brick through the window, and I'll bet anyone
here dollars to doughnuts (or bagels, or whatever... ;-) that if I have
physical access to a computer, my saws-all (large, heavy, powerful,
electric reciprocating hacksaw) can make quick work of any case I've ever
seen, including the AS/400's & mainframes I worked on back just before the
turn of this decade.
Actually, that's something I didn't think about... I worked on IBM 3090 /
Amdahl 5890 mainframes back in '89... anyone giving those away nowadays?
;^> ;^>
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig.
If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead
disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.
ANY properly
designed and installed lock must be unlocked before it can be
removed.
Hmmm... I can think of plenty of locks, including most (house) door locks
where, although the door (or whatever) has to be open to dismantle the
lock, you don't have to have the key, or have the lock in the unlocked
position to do so. Try locking one of your locks with the door open, and
see if you can take it apart without unlocking it.
9:48 a.m.
New subject: Ace
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5:52 a.m.
New subject: Ace
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