31 Jul
2006
31 Jul
'06
10:53 a.m.
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2006 11:13:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris M <chrism3667 at yahoo.com>
by any chance does anyone use this method, and would
be willing to small *even* number of sheets? The one
place I know of that sells it has a $50 minimum order
(Halted). Or maybe someone knows of a place with fewer restrictions.
Digi-Key has it for $14.95 for ten sheets,but they have a $25
minimum. However, if you order the GreenTRF at the same time, it
should push you pretty close to the $25.
For those folks who've had poor results with TT, did you seal the
toner with TRF before etching? And did you use a laminator or an
iron to transfer the toner image?
I'm slowly working my way up to trying this method myself, and am
really hoping for better results than I've read about here. But
don't expect them, unless I'm doing something different than others
who have tried it.
The attraction is, that while the circuit board houses just don't get
much cheaper than $4 - $5 per board for small boards, the TT can get
down to $.50 - $.75 each by my calculations. Of course, if 75% of
them must be discarded...
Jeff Walther
31 Jul
31 Jul
12:28 p.m.
On 7/31/2006 at 12:53 PM Jeff Walther wrote:
The attraction is, that while the circuit board houses
just don't get
much cheaper than $4 - $5 per board for small boards, the TT can get
down to $.50 - $.75 each by my calculations. Of course, if 75% of
them must be discarded...
From the presentations of this technique on the web,
I'm not convinced that
this technique is usable for anything much finer than DIP
spacing; e.g.
PQFP. Does anyone have experience to the contrary?
Cheers,
Chuck
12:39 p.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 7/31/2006 at 12:53 PM Jeff Walther wrote:
Registration becomes the issue. In my experience, it's just not
worth it, nowadays, unless you're making a HiFi amplifier or
something equally "non-dense". Saving a couple of dollars on
a bare board just doesn't justify the cost (in time)
E.g., why not make your own memory SIMM/DIMMs too? :>
Years ago we had our own etch tank, wave, etc. and *still* ended
up pushing board fab to outside vendors (messy process).
The attraction is, that while the circuit board
houses just don't get
much cheaper than $4 - $5 per board for small boards, the TT can get
down to $.50 - $.75 each by my calculations. Of course, if 75% of
them must be discarded...
From the presentations of this technique on the web, I'm not convinced that
this technique is usable for anything much finer than DIP spacing; e.g.
PQFP. Does anyone have experience to the contrary? 
1:52 p.m.
Rumor has it that Don Y may have mentioned these words:
Registration becomes the issue.
Are you speaking of registering 2-sided boards, or of problems that can
come from non-linearity of media for even single-sided boards?
In my experience, it's just not
worth it, nowadays, unless you're making a HiFi amplifier or
something equally "non-dense". Saving a couple of dollars on
a bare board just doesn't justify the cost (in time)
1) experience of doing it yourself?
2) bragging rights?
3) need quick turnaround?
4) 1-off prototypes?
Granted, depending on the application, none of these may apply... and the
costs of a hobby (time & $$) are *never* justifiable, unless "Because I
wanted to" is a valid justification. ;-)
E.g., why not make your own memory SIMM/DIMMs too?
:>
Someone was trying to make their own, but the board thickness might not be
a standard thickness for what's available in the hobbyist market, IIRC...
not to mention cutting the boards with the little notches & whatnot may not
be very easy in a hobbyist setting. Lasers good, Dremels bad... ;-)
Years ago we had our own etch tank, wave, etc. and
*still* ended
up pushing board fab to outside vendors (messy process).
Yes, but was that for 1-off prototype stuff, or for a run of boards?
Prototype boards are a lot more expensive compared to a run of 1000, or
even 100.
But what do I know - I'm just the Village Idiot when it comes to board
manufacture... ;-) [[ Done a lot of reading on it, have a couple of kit
systems, but never taken the time to do enough with it to get used to it... ]]
Laterz,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together."
sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson
zmerch at 30below.com |
2:11 p.m.
Roger Merchberger wrote:
Sure! But, if you aren't prepared to take up MAKING BOARDS AS
A HOBBY (i.e. if you're just going to try it once or twice),
you'll probably be dissatisfied with the results.
And, if you take THAT up as a hobby, you may end up being
discouraged with how it forces you to approach projects
(e.g., having to avoid using certain packaging technologies).
I know that when a client "forces" ("strongly encourages"?)
me to use only certain technologies (e.g., for a board that
will have to be repaired in the field by folks who may
not be particularly skilled with a soldering iron :> ),
it has a noticeable impact on the quality of the design
that I can produce. Certain parts just aren't available
in thruhole technologies. Certain other parts require
(very) expensive sockets (e.g., don't even try to do a BGA
design!). Board size increases (this can also have mechanical
implications -- e.g., a tiny board rarely needs a stiffener
or other support). Etc.
As I said, if you are making a HiFi amplifier or something
with reasonably low density parts (e.g., 1 DIP per sq in)
it's "doable". But, if you are using this as a *tool* so
that you can make things that you want to *use* (i.e. the
"hobby" is the design and/or USE of the item and not it's
FABRICATION), then it just seems like a big timesink for
very little return.
It's not even that... it just doesn't make sense to build
things like these (commodity parts) unless someone GIVES
you a small sh*tload of *chips* that you could otherwise
not use. I went this route building 4MB memory "modules"
for an old Compaq 386 I had 15 years ago (compaq was charging
$150/MB). It just wasn't worth the effort in the long run :<
The etch tank was for prototypes. For production, it didn't
make sense to do boards in house (the chemicals involved are
really nasty!). But, we found that the time required to
make even small lots of prototype boards didn't justify the
hassle. If you left the board in the etch tank too long,
you ended up with gaps in traces. If you didn't leave it
in long enough, you ended up with solder bridges between them.
We even tried using metallic *tape* for some designs (a 2KV, 2KW
switcher) and found it didn't save you anything.
Nowadays, with 3 day boards (order *one*... they'll probably
make 3 - 6 and GIVE you the others! :> ) it's easier to get
the design out of the way early and spend those few days
getting together the components you'll need, etc.
Rumor has it that Don Y may have mentioned these
words:
Top to bottom.
Registration becomes the issue.
Are you speaking of registering 2-sided boards, or of problems that can
come from non-linearity of media for even single-sided boards? In my
experience, it's just not
worth it, nowadays, unless you're making a HiFi amplifier or
something equally "non-dense". Saving a couple of dollars on
a bare board just doesn't justify the cost (in time)
1) experience of doing it yourself?
2) bragging rights?
3) need quick turnaround?
4) 1-off prototypes?
Granted, depending on the application, none of these may apply... and
the costs of a hobby (time & $$) are *never* justifiable, unless
"Because I wanted to" is a valid justification. ;-) E.g., why not
make your own memory SIMM/DIMMs too? :>
Someone was trying to make their own, but the board thickness might not
be a standard thickness for what's available in the hobbyist market,
IIRC... not to mention cutting the boards with the little notches &
whatnot may not be very easy in a hobbyist setting. Lasers good, Dremels
bad... ;-) Years ago we
had our own etch tank, wave, etc. and *still* ended
up pushing board fab to outside vendors (messy process).
Yes, but was that for 1-off prototype stuff, or for a run of boards?
Prototype boards are a lot more expensive compared to a run of 1000, or
even 100. But what do I know - I'm just the Village Idiot
when it comes to board
manufacture... ;-) [[ Done a lot of reading on it, have a couple of kit
systems, but never taken the time to do enough with it to get used to
it... ]]
If you want to do it to say you've *done* it, by all means, try it!
Just don't think of it as a way to save any real time/money.
Better to spend your time finding others that want a similar
design and go in together on a "lot".
--don
2:27 p.m.
Don Y wrote:
Nowadays, with 3 day boards (order *one*... they'll probably
make 3 - 6 and GIVE you the others! :> ) it's easier to get
the design out of the way early and spend those few days
getting together the components you'll need, etc.
I have to agree. I used to make boards (long ago) with a light
sensitive resist, negatives and a tank, and I'd drill the holes and cut
the boards, etc... it was a huge pain and a huge mess. And mind you I
enjoyed it at the time (but it was still a huge pain). The results were
ok, sometimes even nice, but not as good as what I can get today.
I use pcbexpress and 4pcb (advanced) and others and you just can't beat
the price.
I do little 2 layer boards all the time for customers and they cost $99
for 4-6 boards depending on the size. I don't think I could buy the raw
boards and the chemicals for less than that. And the time... well.
And, I just don't have time to live without plated vias anymore, to be
honest :-) maybe I've just gone soft, but I could never get the press on
letters to look as good as they do now with CAD.
it is possible I just love the magic of emailing a file and having the
UPS man deliver finished boards. it's just so nice and clean.
-brad
3:07 p.m.
Brad Parker wrote:
Don Y wrote:
Sure. "Therapeutic" to some degree.
Nowadays, with 3 day boards (order *one*...
they'll probably
make 3 - 6 and GIVE you the others! :> ) it's easier to get
the design out of the way early and spend those few days
getting together the components you'll need, etc.
I have to agree. I used to make boards (long ago) with a light
sensitive resist, negatives and a tank, and I'd drill the holes and cut
the boards, etc... it was a huge pain and a huge mess. And mind you I
enjoyed it at the time (but it was still a huge pain). The results were ok, sometimes even nice, but not as good as what I can
get today.
I use pcbexpress and 4pcb (advanced) and others and you just can't beat
the price.
I do little 2 layer boards all the time for customers and they cost $99
for 4-6 boards depending on the size. I don't think I could buy the raw
boards and the chemicals for less than that. And the time... well.
If you want "bragging rights" (i.e. to say you've done it), then
rational arguments are useless. ;-) But, it's sort of like
mowing the lawn when you are a kid; the first time is *cool*.
After that, you quickly understand why they call them CHORES! :>
And, I just don't have time to live without plated
vias anymore, to be
honest :-) maybe I've just gone soft, but I could never get the press on
letters to look as good as they do now with CAD.
it is possible I just love the magic of emailing a file and having the
UPS man deliver finished boards. it's just so nice and clean.
I'd just rather spend my time doing something *creative* instead
of mundane! :-/ I've got *really* nice wirewrap tools -- sitting
in a box in the garage! :>
2:30 p.m.
On 7/31/2006 at 2:11 PM Don Y wrote:
If you want to do it to say you've *done* it, by
all means, try it!
Just don't think of it as a way to save any real time/money.
Better to spend your time finding others that want a similar
design and go in together on a "lot".
...one benefit that's not been mentioned is the advantage of having an
outside-produced board returned to you tinned with solder mask and
plated-through holes (and possibly silkscreen). I couldn't imagine what it
takes to do a one-off of one as a "hobby".
3:02 p.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 7/31/2006 at 2:11 PM Don Y wrote:
I had assumed it was "understood" that hobbyists max out at
two foil layers and nothing more ;-)
I just like the fact that I can get "professional" boards
that are so much *smaller* and *tighter* than anything I could
reliably make myself. Even the thru-hole boards are nice
and tight -- my last such design was 540 components (3700 holes)
in just about 70 sq in. Doing that "by hand" stands very
little chance of happening :>
If you want to do it to say you've *done* it,
by all means, try it!
Just don't think of it as a way to save any real time/money.
Better to spend your time finding others that want a similar
design and go in together on a "lot".
...one benefit that's not been mentioned is the advantage of having an
outside-produced board returned to you tinned with solder mask and
plated-through holes (and possibly silkscreen). I couldn't imagine what it
takes to do a one-off of one as a "hobby".
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